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How to retain our left out community???

  • Thread starter V.Balasubramani
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Dear Sravna,

I have a question for you...I avoided Forum for a few days cos I felt it had an overdose of obsession to external identification.

Was it vAsanA that made you come back?

I would like to know...since you adhere to teachings of Advaita..how do you view an obsession to external identification of even a Sattva kind?

Doesn't it make you feel that it makes us human deviate from Dharma to hold on to something so tight...isnt an obsession with even Sattva just side effects of Maya?

We find that even the maTAdhipathis (of Sankara muTTs) sporting viBhUthi and "kASAyAmbaram". Would that also go in the classification of obsessive external identification?

So how on earth do the same people who are obsessed with Sattva feel they are on the road to liberation when I am pretty sure they can never give up external identification?

How can you be sure? gruhasthAs, gradually move away from rituals (which includes external identification - obsessive/non-obsessive - I suppose) to Iswara arpitam of all karmAs and then on to accept everything as Iswara prasAdam.

This makes it appear as a process and one cannot conclude the result before the process is complete.
 
Dear Renuka,

You say commitment gives stress but don't you think that fulfilling commitment gives a tremendous positive feeling?

Dear Sravna,

Commitment does gives me stress..I know that for sure!

Reason is cos a commitment comes with obligations and expectations.

Both of these can make one stressful.

One of the reasons I did not further my studies beyond my first degree is becos I did not want to be in a position where I have to be the end point deciding the outcome of the case.

Right now with my basic degree I can do my work well knowing that if I cant handle it I can always refer it to a specialist but if I am a specialist who the heck am I going to refer the case to if I can't handle it?

Now that is stressful to be the top most position..cos it comes with COMMITMENT.

Same with marriage..motherhood..friendship..relationships...all these come with commitment..we cant ditch spouse and child if we feel we cant manage them..we have to stay on but if we are not in a committed relationship anytime I can all it the quits and walk out.

For me I can only feel tremendously positive when I am free from responsibilities and not committed to anyone or anything.

I am not irresponsible but I dislike being in charge or even make a decision.
 
Dear Sravna,

Commitment does gives me stress..I know that for sure!

Reason is cos a commitment comes with obligations and expectations.

Both of these can make one stressful.

One of the reasons I did not further my studies beyond my first degree is becos I did not want to be in a position where I have to be the end point deciding the outcome of the case.

Right now with my basic degree I can do my work well knowing that if I cant handle it I can always refer it to a specialist but if I am a specialist who the heck am I going to refer the case to if I can't handle it?

Now that is stressful to be the top most position..cos it comes with COMMITMENT.

Same with marriage..motherhood..friendship..relationships...all these come with commitment..we cant ditch spouse and child if we feel we cant manage them..we have to stay on but if we are not in a committed relationship anytime I can all it the quits and walk out.

For me I can only feel tremendously positive when I am free from responsibilities and not committed to anyone or anything.

I am not irresponsible but I dislike being in charge or even make a decision.

Renuka,

It is all in our mind. We are mostly responsible for the situation we are in. A calm mind can see things with clarity and so act and react appropriately which is what ensures happiness in any situation. It is always wise to correct ourselves than to correct others. In fact if you are successful in that , you can elicit the desired response from others too.
 
My answers in blue:


Was it vAsanA that made you come back?

No..I missed Rishikeshan Ji..thats why I came back.



We find that even the maTAdhipathis (of Sankara muTTs) sporting viBhUthi and "kASAyAmbaram". Would that also go in the classification of obsessive external identification?

Why decorate the head when the only lines that matters is Brahma Likhitam.



How can you be sure? gruhasthAs, gradually move away from rituals (which includes external identification - obsessive/non-obsessive - I suppose) to Iswara arpitam of all karmAs and then on to accept everything as Iswara prasAdam.

Mostly I have noted people change mode of prayer and develop a deeper understanding but they seldom do away with bodily identification like race,jati,varna etc.

This makes it appear as a process and one cannot conclude the result before the process is complete.

Existence has no process..it simply Exists.
 
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Renuka,

It is all in our mind. We are mostly responsible for the situation we are in. A calm mind can see things with clarity and so act and react appropriately which is what ensures happiness in any situation. It is always wise to correct ourselves than to correct others. In fact if you are successful in that , you can elicit the desired response from others too.

Well I have a tendency to view myself harshly and honestly and let others get away with even murder!LOL

But whatever said and done I totally dislike commitment....it makes me claustrophobic.
 
My answers in blue:

Existence has no process..it simply Exists.

Sure, existence is mere existence and nothing more. But to understand that the whole body-mind-intellect apparatus is nothing more than mere existence may take even a few janmas for many. Thats what I understood from my scant readings.
 
Only when we break free of all the bonds do we see the inner reality alone. So till then, however hard we may try our visions are invariably colored.

The remedy is to realize this fact and try to move towards a state free of all the bonds. Being on the right path is itself good enough to help us reach the goal.

Dear Sravna,

Do we really have to break free?

Isnt bondage too just in the mind?

Its not as if we need to sing Amazing Grace style..."Was bound but now I am Free"...

Why even think we are or were bound..in fact Freedom is only for those who think they are bound or were bound.

Even women's liberation is only for females who feel or felt they were bound.

The fact is there is no bondage nor there is freedom.

Its simply existence and its the mind that made us identify with these two states.

That is why I feel all these Gunas are Cock and Bull.

Subscribing to this Guna theory we humans make the biggest blunder of thinking that we need a step by step approach in life working our way from Janam Janam Janam..(sorry... extra Janam is from Dilwale movie!LOL).

The most important thing is NOW..its NOW or NEVER.

There is no Guna based steps..thats just an illusion to spin the human mind backwards so that one always needs guidance and never learns that he was never bound to even crave freedom.
 
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Sure, existence is mere existence and nothing more. But to understand that the whole body-mind-intellect apparatus is nothing more than mere existence may take even a few janmas for many. Thats what I understood from my scant readings.

Read my post 432.
 
Dear Renuka,

By bondage I mean possessing nature that is susceptible to pressure and attachment . So by freedom I mean attaining the nature that cannot be pressurised by anything external. Makes sense?
 
Dear Renuka,

By bondage I mean possessing nature that is susceptible to pressure and attachment . So by freedom I mean attaining the nature that cannot be pressurised by anything external. Makes sense?

Dear Sravna,

Agreed but even internal factors can exert pressure and attachment.

The mind is an internal organ.It is capable of eliciting responses even when there is no external influences.
 
Dear Sravna,

Agreed but even internal factors can exert pressure and attachment.

The mind is an internal organ.It is capable of eliciting responses even when there is no external influences.

Exactly Renuka. It is in fact the mind that needs correction. A perfect mind is imperturbable.
 
So let us try to think from all the angles and not be swayed by the glamour of modern thinking.

The highlighted made me reflect. On thinking. Could there be modern thinking, new thinking, old thinking, traditional thinking, positive thinking, negative thinking, desperate thinking...? These are all from a certain standpoint, of course, and thinking could be only that - thinking.

I dont take sides when thinking, and neither do I think that something is bad or good per se. It is for every individual to decide what is best for him/her. Our discussions can only mean that we put unwritten thoughts, of many, into posts of a few here in this forum. Generalizing on a few personalized examples expose an undesirable habit as it indicates shallow thinking.

IC/IR marriages are opposed for the right reasons. A marriage is supposed to be the union of minds but that does not seem to be the case in these marriages. It is mainly occurring because of physical intimacy or for some other less worthy reasons. If it really is a union of minds the objections would be far less strident.
You have made a strong and sweeping statement. How do we know that ic/ir marriages are due to physical intimacy? Because a group of "jati brahmins" thought so? The very fact that such couples chose to bond in marriage against adversity could very well be an example of their "union of minds", dont you think?

Some people have an illusion that all is sweet and honey in arranged marriages. There are several factors that (I have noticed) are commonly overlooked in an arranged marriage:

1) The family (generally of the girl) rushes to help and support and bends backwards to make sure that the union is not broken
2) In most arranged marriages, the male is the dominant (and probably chauvinistic) type. If the girl is individualistic, then often such marriages break. Else, the wife becomes a nagging character and could often talk behind the back of the husband.
3) The mappillai is treated like a king by the girl's father as they feel that if the girl is abandoned, her future is doomed.

Predominantly, families who think in a manner similar to the above are the older generation (thus I have observed). Similar to many members here in this forum, who advocate against ic/ir.

IC/IR marriages seem to fail because:

1) Both the families tend to look down at them, even to the extent of ostracizing. The couple get no support (financial or emotional) whatsoever, which otherwise might have made them lead a normal life.
2) Some or both sides may sometimes tend to influence either the boy or the girl to separate so that they could maintain their "jati purity". Such instigations coupled with a bad phase could sway the thinking of any one of the couple to indulge in the thought that their decision to live was a mistake.

So it is not all an innocent conclusion to say that "same caste marriages are successful", and IC/IR are not.

If you feel that humans are the same, and there are no behavioural genes that are passed down (which is again an unproven hypothesis), then you should have no objection to an ic/ir marriage.

I think those who talk of preserving the culture think that the substantive part has to be protected. Basically they are spiritual values but that is what is most lacking in the current times. It manifests outwardly as some desirable actions and behaviour which is what is sought to be preserved. Doing rituals, celebrating festivals, going to temples and similar activities are supposed to kindle the spirituality and promote mental well being.
Well, if you go into the core of any festival or ritual, the underlying "substantive" part would be happiness, prosperity, health and peace. Is it not? Why care about the facade?

Dear Sravna, does it matter to you if I put the greeting "Dear Sravna" either on top or on the bottom? After all, the intent is what matters...!
 
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The next question...is a perfect mind actually possible?

Dear Renuka,

A perfect mind eventually happens for everyone. It is a progression from the sattvik state. When the jivatma sees the futility of violence a sattvik mind is born and when the jivatma sees the futility of attachment, a perfect mind is born


Dear auh,

I agree humans are all the same in that they internally are divine but the external projections are different and each is unique at a particular point of time. If I were to say that scientifically it was found that peace loving people like those who are peace loving too and that valorous people like valorous people too and it is in their best interests to be with such a partner would such a compatibility be more acceptable to you?

I think people of similar nature marrying is a very logic way of finding a partner and that would have been the genesis of community marrying within itself. It is definitely not degrading others but a sensible way of matching people. We rely heavily on such internal factors and that is the reason for strong emphasis on horoscope matching. External factors such as beauty, money and pseudo values of equality etc are not good enough reasons for something as serious as marriage.

Let us accept it .Humans are outwardly different and that is an important consideration for any other human in his decision making. If you talk of real equality and embracing of all that can be done by someone whose mind is really liberated and he sees all as one because external factors absolutely dont matter to him. How many such people are there??

So let us be practical and if some want to maintain their identity let us not force them to move on with time as it is possible to move on without internally changing.
 
I believe in astrology. So the traditional way of matching horoscopes for compatibility ensures there is match between couples. But even if one spends sufficient time in moving with one's potential mate it is very difficult to know whether the marriage will succeed,

You can match jatakams irrespective of caste and religion.
 
I agree humans are all the same in that they internally are divine but the external projections are different and each is unique at a particular point of time. If I were to say that scientifically it was found that peace loving people like those who are peace loving too and that valorous people like valorous people too and it is in their best interests to be with such a partner would such a compatibility be more acceptable to you?

I think people of similar nature marrying is a very logic way of finding a partner and that would have been the genesis of community marrying within itself. It is definitely not degrading others but a sensible way of matching people. We rely heavily on such internal factors and that is the reason for strong emphasis on horoscope matching. External factors such as beauty, money and pseudo values of equality etc are not good enough reasons for something as serious as marriage.

A community is no guarantee that people would be of the same nature. This is a very shallow approach. In the past generations, brahmin families would have witnessed so much hatred in the core family itself - brothers vs brothers vs sisters etc. In the name of pride, priority, ritual, wealth etc. All people exhibit basic human qualities and higher qualities irrespective of their caste. Let us not attribute common factors to any one particular community (by this I mean by virtue of their birth or gene). Everything lies in the upbringing.

Let us accept it .Humans are outwardly different and that is an important consideration for any other human in his decision making. If you talk of real equality and embracing of all that can be done by someone whose mind is really liberated and he sees all as one because external factors absolutely dont matter to him. How many such people are there??

So let us be practical and if some want to maintain their identity let us not force them to move on with time as it is possible to move on without internally changing.
Just that I don a different colour shirt does not give you the right to label me in a different bracket.

As I said earlier, the concept that nature is by birth is flawed, and this flawed theory has been conditioned in the minds of people for centuries. Though you teach to solve logical problems for MBA entrance exams, you show hesitation to follow logic when it comes to caste and religion. This shows the power of brainwashing and conditioning (handed down for generations), and not to mention - the fear of the unknown.

A community does not bestow character to its children, as in by way of genes.

The last para of your statement is something of an irony. Why do you want to force-bracket people into a community instead of letting them exhibit their nature in an uninhibited way?
 
I agree but if you want to rely on jatakams you have to believe in the whole spiritual system. You cant pick and choose your likes.

I dont rely on jatakams, but was just pointing out the contradictory stance in your statement.

A few generations ago, the main consideration for jataka poruttham was to primiarily ensure the longevity of the groom, I am told. Astrology was mainly used to determine auspicious timings for important events.

The kind of detailed analysis based on jatakams that we see today was not in evidence earlier among the general masses.
 
Originally Posted by sravna
Only when we break free of all the bonds do we see the inner reality alone. So till then, however hard we may try our visions are invariably colored.

The remedy is to realize this fact and try to move towards a state free of all the bonds. Being on the right path is itself good enough to help us reach the goal.

Dear Sravna,

Why should we break free?

This "breaking free to see the inner reality" has become an obsession.

Why complicate things while creation appears to be just simple in its content and intent?

I have a mind which is sharp enough. With that I understand that the reality-whatever it is-can not be decoded except as neti neti etc., So I (my mind) understand the reality as something gross which can not be defined precisely (like the schrodinger's cat?). I believe there can be only one reality and so the inner reality and the outer reality merge and become just one reality which is just gross and unintelligible.

Now to a mind which knows only to objectify realities and understand them, when you make the object hazy and unintelligible, the next best thing available as a course is to objectify that hazy reality itself in some intelligible form. This is a simple and smart solution. So I go to temple and worship in all seriousness before the deity there. The deity becomes the object of my respect, love, veneration and whatever else is there. There is a beauty also in doing this instead of struggling with a vaccum and trying to search and find whether I am inclusively present in that.

When Alwar sang:

மாணிக்கம்கட்டி வைரம் இடைகட்டி,
ஆணிப்பொன்னால் செய்த வண்ணச்சிறு தொட்டில்,
பேணியுனக்கு பிரமன் விடுதந்தான்
மாணிக்குறளனே தாலேலோ, வையம் அளந்தானே தாலேலோ.

That was a lullaby he sang to put to sleep his objectified reality--as if that reality needed sleep. LOL. But I understand his higher level of understanding/realization and the beauty in what he sang. I enjoy this pasuram whenever I hear it sung.

Enjoy it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqsMz20hETo&list=PLD708C102FDE8A268

and when Nayanar sang:

மாசில் வீணையும் மாலை மதியமும்,
வீசுதென்றலும் வீங்கிளவேனிலும்,
மூசு வண்டரைப் பொய்கையும் போன்றதே
ஈசன் எந்தை இணையடிநீழலே.

has he not brought out this objectifying solution beautifully?

So do not look to run away from bonds and possessions. Enjoy them all and include the ultimate reality also among those bonds and possessions. That way, with the objectification complete to the dot, you can have this janma and enjoy it too (have the cake and eat it too). Again alwar said, " இச்சுவை தவிர யான் போய் இந்திரலோகம் ஆளும் அச்சுவை பெறினும் வேண்டேன் அரங்கமாநகருளானே". and Ramalinga vallalar said மதி வேண்டும், நின் கருணை நிதி வேண்டும், நோயற்றவாழ்வு நான் வாழ வேண்டும்". Don't you think all these are in favour of objectifying?
 
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Dear Shri Vaagmi,

Ones goals can be reached in many ways. The very essence of physical reality is heterogeneity. Within that existence people choose different paths to attain their objectives. I believe there is a divine existence beyond our existence. Because of our own limitations we cannot directly perceive that. Even those who perceive it has to present them in an organized and logical manner to properly communicate it to others.

So I view objectifying as a way to present otherwise incommunicable truth. But I would not consider such objectified knowledge as exactly reflecting reality. Ultimate knowledge I believe can only be experienced and beyond the bounds of space and time.
 
I dont rely on jatakams, but was just pointing out the contradictory stance in your statement.

A few generations ago, the main consideration for jataka poruttham was to primiarily ensure the longevity of the groom, I am told. Astrology was mainly used to determine auspicious timings for important events.

The kind of detailed analysis based on jatakams that we see today was not in evidence earlier among the general masses.

Auh,

I am not sure. Let members throw some light on this.
 
Dear Auh,

I am not at all talking about birth based pride though it is true that one's nature is inherited to a large extent from one's parents. If someone wants to move on with time I will happily see them move on but similarly if someone wants to preserve their cultural identity let them preserve it. Let the world evolve organically. If there is real merit to your side the world will some day know it.
 
Dear Shri Vaagmi,
--clipped-- So I view objectifying as a way to present otherwise incommunicable truth. But I would not consider such objectified knowledge as exactly reflecting reality. Ultimate knowledge I believe can only be experienced and beyond the bounds of space and time.

Dear Sravna,

Objectified reality is not claimed to reflect reality because it is objectified by a subject with all its limitations. Objects are convenient to deal with while abstract reality is difficult to handle and that is the sole reason for objectifying. What better way to objectify than to do it in the anthropomorphous form!! The moment we say ultimate knowledge or reality can only be experienced beyond the bounds of space and time it becomes a statement loaded with redundancy. To experience what is beyond space and time we have to be beyond space and time. Remaining within the confines of space and time, it is only an alphabet soup with an exotic flavour but without any tangible meaning. LOL.

So let us be free from this round tripping. Let us enjoy the life here and now and at the same time let us objectify the unintelligible reality to satisfy the natural hunger in us to think beyond and enjoy that too. When the time comes we will attain sAyujyam-whatever it is-because there appears to be no other reason why we are born here in the first place. Enjoy.
 
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Dear Sravna,

Objectified reality is not claimed to reflect reality because it is objectified by a subject with all its limitations. Objects are convenient to deal with while abstract reality is difficult to handle and that is the sole reason for objectifying. What better way to objectify than to do it in the anthropomorphous form!! The moment we say ultimate knowledge or reality can only be experienced beyond the bounds of space and time it becomes a statement loaded with redundancy. To experience what is beyond space and time we have to be beyond space and time. Remaining within the confines of space and time, it is only an alphabet soup with an exotic flavour but without any tangible meaning. LOL.

So let us be free from this round tripping. Let us enjoy the life here and now and at the same time let us objectify the unintelligible reality to satisfy the natural hunger in us to think beyond and enjoy that too. When the time comes we will attain sAyujyam-whatever it is-because there appears to be no other reason why we are born here in the first place. Enjoy.

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

Though the body is within space time , our mind can be beyond space and time. The vedas itself which is spiritual knowledge can be grasped only by minds which are beyond space time. So being beyond space time is not something which has no tangible meaning.
 
Dear Sravna,

Objectified reality is not claimed to reflect reality because it is objectified by a subject with all its limitations. Objects are convenient to deal with while abstract reality is difficult to handle and that is the sole reason for objectifying. What better way to objectify than to do it in the anthropomorphous form!! The moment we say ultimate knowledge or reality can only be experienced beyond the bounds of space and time it becomes a statement loaded with redundancy. To experience what is beyond space and time we have to be beyond space and time. Remaining within the confines of space and time, it is only an alphabet soup with an exotic flavour but without any tangible meaning. LOL.

So let us be free from this round tripping. Let us enjoy the life here and now and at the same time let us objectify the unintelligible reality to satisfy the natural hunger in us to think beyond and enjoy that too. When the time comes we will attain sAyujyam-whatever it is-because there appears to be no other reason why we are born here in the first place. Enjoy.

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

There are multiple ways to interpret anything.

But to a great extent I see shades of Vaishnavaism in your explanation and the subconscious/conscious loyalty to it that binds your mind.

At times we need to shed personal preferences if we need to get technical.

One does not MISS out in life if one is technical...that's how some people are wired.

Bhakti may be Madhuram and so is Delusion....the Glycemic Index might differ..thats all!


I feel at times Bhaktism is deluding cos everyone gets into a frenzy of enjoying the imaginary nectar of bliss...100% sure of Sayujyam as the end point of their countless experiences of ecstasy ..imagining a promised land where everyone is a Smurfy shade of blue.

Its almost tempting the person to join the frenzy...somewhat like another religion where Virgins are promised.

How different is it...its just sense based...to even think of Vaikuntha or Sayujya is still very much attachment to sensual gratification.

I have to agree with Sravna here that there must be something beyond even time and space.

Yes...none of us might even know it but that does not mean we are not having fun in life.

May be fun for some is going beyond time and space and fun for some is Namasmaranam hoping for Sayujya.

Who is right and who is wrong?

No one...there is something beyond..none of us know it..but I do not think its called Narayana.
 
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