• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Would this be an intercaste marriage?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Namaskaram,
This is my first query on this public forum . I have a genuine query, that has risen due to a quagmire that i find my friend has found himself in . He is an tamil iyer man , who is 27 years old. And likes a brahmin girl ,but she is an Andhra brahmin or Telegu brahmin , now my friend's family is one that respects traditions and customs and very orthodox , so would going ahead with this proposal be considered as an inter-caste marriage? ?
This is a genuine query.
All inputs from elders and knowledgeable people are welcome .
Thanks in Advance .
 
NO. Nowhere is there any rule in any Dharma Sasthra that the girl should belong to the same region or speak the same language. Only Gotras matter.
 
NO. Nowhere is there any rule in any Dharma Sasthra that the girl should belong to the same region or speak the same language. Only Gotras matter.

Thanks for your input ,sir. But to further clarify on your post . Would it be a problem , if the boy and girl belonged to geographically disparate regions but to the same gothra .As the geographical distance solves the problem of a direct relation if I'm not mistaken . please advise
 
Thanks for your input ,sir. But to further clarify on your post . Would it be a problem , if the boy and girl belonged to geographically disparate regions but to the same gothra .As the geographical distance solves the problem of a direct relation if I'm not mistaken . please advise

Mr. IM,

Normally no Brahman worth his salt will agree to a 'sagotra' - marrying in the same gotra - marriage. They just are afraid of the heavens falling down on their heads. But there have been such marriages, though very few and those couples are as normal as any others - some problems, some difficulties, etc., which are present in all households. To obviate the orthodoxy's objections a symbolic adoption of the girl by a relative of another gotra-usually maternal uncle or father's sister's husband will be a good idea. I know of one or two cases like that.
 
Thanks for your input ,sir. But to further clarify on your post . Would it be a problem , if the boy and girl belonged to geographically disparate regions but to the same gothra .As the geographical distance solves the problem of a direct relation if I'm not mistaken . please advise

Marriage between the boy and girl belonging to same Gothra is not permitted under the rules covering traditional matrimonial system. This may be due to fear of physical and medical complications in the progeny due to endogamy and inbreeding in close knit groups. But in the expanding society the relevence of Gothra has diminished much and there are quite a few cases of marriages within the the same Gothra take place now a days.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore..
 
That's interesting .I've also heard that if it can be proved that there is no relation between the girl and boy for seven generations then marriage within the same gotra is permissible . Does this argument merit any standing . Please feel free to share your thoughts.
 
Dear Sri InquisitiveMind Ji,

By your questions to answers, I am starting to doubt your claim that your question was sincere to start with. You also claim your are you are 22 years of age in your profile - that belies your knowledge.

Actually, who are you?

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri InquisitiveMind Ji,

By your questions to answers, I am starting to doubt your claim that your question was sincere to start with. You also claim your are you are 22 years of age in your profile - that belies your knowledge.

Actually, who are you?

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sirs,
I can assure you that my question was sincere , as it affects the lives of two people I am closely associated with and am trying to help , and are in the midst of a turmoil in their lives torn between tradition, respect for parents and love .
I can also assure you that my claim of being 22 years old is also very valid . I am ready to submit proof if needed and as far as my knowledge is concerned , I assure you my knowledge of traditions , slokas et al. is miniscule if compared to a traditional Iyer boy of the same age . The "knowledge" that I have procured is only through scouring the internet and trying to read books so that I may be able to better understand my culture and tradition , rather than submit blindly to half truths.

Please do contribute to the discussion if you are satisfied with the affidavit of my credentials .:)
Thanks.
 
Dear Sri InquisitiveMind Ji,

Fair enough.

Before we go any further, please send me your personal details (name, address, job, phone #) by PM to me, the Moderator, in confidence, so I can check you out.

Regards,
KRS
 
Last edited:
Banning Sagotra marriage may be based on the principle that a union is most successful when complements unite and the least successful or even detrimental when equals unite. It would indeed be interesting to find out whether there are complementary gotras i.e., whether the predominant qualities of one rishi complement those of another.Though the saptarishis are complete in themselves, those who descend from them need not be and mostly are not so. Thus the predominant qualities may be passed on. For example those belonging to the kaushika gotra are supposed to be short tempered and this being attributed to viswamitra ( source - wikipedia). Similarly for those belonging to other gotras, there may be some common qualities among each of them?
 
Dear Sri InquisitiveMind Ji,

Fair enough.

Before we go any further, please send me your personal details (name, address, job, phone #) by PM to me, the Moderator, in confidence, so I can check you out.

Regards,
KRS
Respected Moderator ,
I have no qualms in letting you know my credentials , provided I'm assured of the privacy of my identity. I hope you understand the fact that I would prefer to remain anonymous in public .
Thanks.


Dear Sravna ,
Thanks for your valuable input and the phenomenon of complementary gotras comes as a first to me .(pardon my ignorance ). I was under the belief that horoscopes and their matching helped in matching qualities (please pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong on this , again!) In addition , are we within reason to draw such a generalization ie. of qualities just on the basis of gothras?

Please keep the discussion alive and contribute your valuable thoughts.

Thanks in advance .

EDIT: I assure the moderators and other senior members that this topic was initiated just to gain relevant information from a group of elderly,knowledgeable people . And not with the intention to troll or cause unnecessary drama .
 
Last edited:
Dear InquisitiveMind,

It is my own extrapolation based on principles applied in other contexts, that I suggested the concept of complementary gotras. It seems that the principle of complementarity is also applicable for gender , say man -woman union is the norm and the healthy one. In the varna classification also we find the application of this principle.

It is definitely within reason to say that when two complementary parts unite the union works well as complementary parts by definition best make the complete whole because of the good fit.

Also I think horoscope matching is specifically for finding out such compatibility.
 
Last edited:
Though I am not well versed with the scientific reasons that would explain why sagotra marriages are not good, it seems when same or similar qualities come together they oppose each other rather than reinforce each other, not very unlike the ego clashes between a husband and his working wife. Thus the product emerges as a misfit in such cases.
 
Sagotra marriages are frowned upon for the reason that the two people in question are like siblings - in a way. Also, in a brahminical marriage, the bride's gothram is changed once and for all to the bridegroom's gothram and this in fact is considered an important ritual. What could be the background for this ritual? A woman's womb was considered a mere receptacle to receive the 'seed' of the man and to provide nourishment for the seed for nine months or so to develop into a baby. Once the baby was delivered, the new being, whether it was a boy or girl, was completely owned by the father, not the mother, who herself, was a 'property' of the father, along with his lands, cattle and other material wealth! All these notions were based on the belief that traits and characteristics are transmitted only from Father to the off-springs and NOT from the Mother. The analogy given as 'evidence' for this belief is like this: if a mango seed and a neem seed are planted in the same garden, the mango seed grows into a mango tree and the neem seed grows into a neem tree, each very different from each other, though the soil in which they both grow is essentially the same.

Now, Science has shown us that this notion is completely wrong and the genes from both the mother and the father are transmitted to a child who may receive the characteristics of the father, mother and ancestors from both sides, in some unique combination each, so that even if a man and a woman produce a dozen off-springs (not that common, nowadays, of course :)), each off-spring is unique.

Now, let us face the facts: Is it not just absurd and totally unscientific that the same society which strongly disapproves a sagotra marriage between a boy and a girl, completely unrelated, perhaps even hailing from different geographical area, as queried by InquisitiveMind in post #3, tacitly approves the marriage between a boy and a girl, where one's father and the other's mother are brother and sister? The chances of this society-approved couple having a large number of common genes is much much higher than the sagotra couple, completely unrelated and even hailing from different geographical areas.

So, what is all this senseless fuss about sagotra marriages, in the present day context? In the distant past, alliances were always made between families known to each other well and also living in nearby villages. So the restriction from sagotra angle was perhaps very valid and quite reasonable. But not any more today, I am afraid! I intend no disrespect as such to dharmashastram but some of the prescriptions in it are no more valid or relevant in modern times. I think it is time that we TaBras stop hiding behind a dilapidated shield any longer. lacking courage to face the new challenges we are bound to come across in these changing times, instead of reasoning out and resolving the issues clearly, sensibly and boldly. I realize what I say here may not be to the liking of some people, but instead of just protesting, let them cogitate deeply enough and then decide.

I am well aware that 'faith' and 'reason' do not go hand in hand and so cause a lot of conflicts, but it is time that we face up the challenges squarely and learn to resolve which one to sacrifice at the cost of which one : 'faith' or 'reason'!
 
Last edited:
Though I am not well versed with the scientific reasons that would explain why sagotra marriages are not good, it seems when same or similar qualities come together they oppose each other rather than reinforce each other, not very unlike the ego clashes between a husband and his working wife. Thus the product emerges as a misfit in such cases.

Even though I find the point interesting , I would beg to differ with all due humility . Are you suggesting that all people from the same gothra would share the same behavioral pattern . ?And that people marrying from the same gothra would end up in a disastrous married life just because they belong to the same gothra. I'm sorry but I think your previous post is mildly irrational .But again these are my views only . And are open to debate .
Thanks and others are also please requested to join in this discussion.
 
Dear Shri CLN, InquisitiveMind,

Let us face some more facts also. One is the fact that there are differences in intelligence among races. This is well researched and beyond dispute. Also each race as a whole has a certain behavioral pattern though not all may be because of genes. The fact that these qualities are passed on through genes and persist over a long period of time also needs to be agreed upon. Distance between locations do not substantially alter this factor. The factor I think that really would have an effect is if marriages are done between people whose genes are qualitatively different. But that has not happened much especially among brahmins.

The idea of banning sagotra marriage is valid if we believe at least based on science that marriage between siblings is bad.
 
Last edited:
srvana,

how come we marry uncle's daughter or son? are they not 50% common genes prevalent there.

the gene gets diluted with each generation. we are looking at mythical rishis, supposed ancestors, atleast a few milleniums away. inbetween, we don't even know how many races have been intermingled - just look at a crowd of tambrams.

in my own family we have features ranging from mediterranean to dark as charcoal, including some with negroid kinky hair. the darker the hue, the louder the claim to 'purity' of blood.

it is unfortunate, for just last week, we had a young couple whose plans to have life together was vetoed by the gothram thing. these are all educated people, with multiple degrees, and living in the west. :(
 
Great debate coming on here ,and the views presented are getting better by the minute .

I totally agree with the statement made by CLN and kunjuppu sirs.
Dear Sravna,

If people who are physically seperated over states or even subcastes share a common gothram how can we attribute them to common ancestors?
This is just my honest doubt .
Please provide your inputs.
 
Dear InquisitiveMind,

It is my own extrapolation based on principles applied in other contexts, that I suggested the concept of complementary gotras. It seems that the principle of complementarity is also applicable for gender , say man -woman union is the norm and the healthy one. In the varna classification also we find the application of this principle.

It is definitely within reason to say that when two complementary parts unite the union works well as complementary parts by definition best make the complete whole because of the good fit.

Also I think horoscope matching is specifically for finding out such compatibility.

Dear Shri Sravna,

In your scheme of complementarity which varna will complement Sudra?
 
A little bit that I know:

Even today, the more knowledgeable of the vaadhyars say "udvaaha muhoorta ..." to denote the marriage. The sanskrit word "udvaaha" [ud + vaah] means lift and carry. This is from primitive memory of girl lifting which was just as common as cattle rustling. The latter is extolled in the rigveda and Indra is praised for his valour in that too. Symbolic cattle rustling used to be done in some parts of Maharashtra even 100 or 150 years ago.

Thus, our marriage is a relic of the tribal marriage, even today. Therefore, it is that one cannot "lift and carry" a girl belonging to one's own tribe or Gotra - for which death was the penalty in the gotra days - and has to lift her from a different clan only. As time passed, our ancients retained the gotra concept (may be because the entire population will not progress at the same time like an army column) and made some rules so that the gotra concept was not seen completely abandoned. Later smriti writers made whatever disfigurement appealed to their imagination. That is all there is to the gotra.

The "gotra change" in our marriage, if you study carefully, does not even make a solemn declaration that the girl's gotra has hereby changed from today,or is considered to have changed; it merely announces, thrice, the daanam of such-and-such kanyaka to such-and-such groom (considered to be "mahaavishnu swaroopaaya varaaya); that is all. The legal (or is it saastraic) basis for "gotram maararatu" is the word "kanyakaa daanam". A daanam means that the donor will not have any further rights, claims, etc., on the gift item and it belongs entirely and without any limitation as to ownership, to the donee. (something like "tubhyam idam na mama", concept.) Hence the donated girl becomes the 'property' of the groom and thus, of his gotram.
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu, InquisitiveMind,

I would be very reluctant to base any of my opinion on scientific fact or findings. So the argument that 50% of genes are passed on from mother's side is not convincing for me. And scientific truths change over time. Looking at a spiritual angle I would say the male or purusha represents the eternal aspect and the female or the prakriti, the evanescent aspect. So it could make sense that the qualities of the male persists over time or are the ones which are more permanent in nature.

Dear Shri Sangom,

The four varnas are the parts which complete the whole. I do not think we would have a complement for each varna.
 
Dear Shri Sangom,

The four varnas are the parts which complete the whole. I do not think we would have a complement for each varna.

Dear Sravna, In post # 12 you stated clearly "It seems that the principle of complementarity is also applicable for gender , say man -woman union is the norm and the healthy one. In the varna classification also we find the application of this principle."

Now you seem to be contradicting yourself.
 
Dear Sri InquisitiveMind Ji,

I have already said : "Before we go any further, please send me your personal details (name, address, job, phone #) by PM to me, the Moderator, in confidence, so I can check you out."

So, please send it soon, otherwise this thread will be locked.

Regards,
KRS
Respected Moderator ,
I have no qualms in letting you know my credentials , provided I'm assured of the privacy of my identity. I hope you understand the fact that I would prefer to remain anonymous in public .
Thanks.


Dear Sravna ,
Thanks for your valuable input and the phenomenon of complementary gotras comes as a first to me .(pardon my ignorance ). I was under the belief that horoscopes and their matching helped in matching qualities (please pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong on this , again!) In addition , are we within reason to draw such a generalization ie. of qualities just on the basis of gothras?

Please keep the discussion alive and contribute your valuable thoughts.

Thanks in advance .

EDIT: I assure the moderators and other senior members that this topic was initiated just to gain relevant information from a group of elderly,knowledgeable people . And not with the intention to troll or cause unnecessary drama .
 
Dear Sravna, In post # 12 you stated clearly "It seems that the principle of complementarity is also applicable for gender , say man -woman union is the norm and the healthy one. In the varna classification also we find the application of this principle."

Now you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Dear Shri Sangom,

It seems you have misunderstood what I said. Complements are those which fit together to form a harmonious whole. The four varnas complement one another because together they satisfy an overall objective in a reinforcing way
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Latest ads

Back
Top