Why do we seek approval from Society for breaking it's rules?

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

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Recently I was talking to a sasthirigal for holding a pucca Brahma Vivaha where the Bride is not a Brahmin. He told me that this is not considered a marriage at all and so only a few procedures can be performed. None of them important. I could understand his stand. I did not argue with him. I got another sasthirigal who would do what I wanted.

This throws light on an important point. We all talk about traditionalists, orthodox and reformists. But the correct term should be Conformists and Non-Conformists.

The Society expects people to conform to the rules set by it. Its survival depend on it. It can not afford to be seen encouraging non-Conformists.

Thje conformist has a much easier life. The rules are laid down. He does not have to think and take a decision. Decision making leads to stress. Abiding by the rules of the Society avoids atressful situations. The Brahmins follow the rules laid down by Dharmasasthras. Dharmasasthras lays down the duties of the Brahmin from Birth to Death. So you follow the rules. Even when there are things which are not laid down by the sasthras, the Conformists follow the crowd. If every one you know send their children to Padma Seshadri, you also do it. If all the children you know study Computers, you also make your children do it. All children go to U.S. So you make that the goal for your children.

The Conformists fall prey to Societal pressures and pressures from Peer groups.

Why? Because Life is much, very much easier for the conformists.

The Society and the world has become a better place to live in because of the non-Conformists. Adi Sankara, Ramanujacharya, Ramana Maharishi and others were all non-conformists.

None of them were initially accepted by the general Society.

Coming back to my original discussion with the sasthirigal, what I wanted to do was non-Conformism. I wanted to break the rules of the Brahmin Society. When I asked the sasthirigal I wanted him to be a party to the breaking of the rules of the Brahmin Society. How can that be done? It is almost like a Criminal asking the Police man to cooperate with him.

Many posts in this forum fall under this category. Someone wants to break the general laid down norms of the Brahmin Society. He asks for sasthric sanction. Even if he is able to dig out a sasthra which sanctions such a procedure, it would never be accepted by the general society.

Some time back there was a discussion about Inter-Brahmin marriage. The people who advocated that got hit from both conformists and non-Conformists. For the Conformists who are particular even about sub-caste this was sacrilegious. For some non-Conformists this was not enough.

Please do not mistake Conformism with Orthodoxy. If I send my children to the Vedha patasala the general Brahmin society would consider me to be a Fool if not worse. Appyya Dikshita is reported to have performed the Bajpeya homa. The Brahmin society was opposed to it. You may perform daily Puja and homa in your home. But that will never get you accepted in the section of the society which considers itself orthodox. The question is whether you do what the others do? Even if you do anything more you are a non-Conformist. I remember the time long time back when one of my Brahmin neighbors questioned me angrily about my not performing Shraddha. Both my parents were alive at that time. He did not even bother to ask for that information.

About reform minded people, nothing is enough for them. Many of them think of revolutionary changes over night.

Please remember:

The Society expects people to conform to the rules set by it. Its survival depend on it. It can not afford to be seen encouraging non-Conformists.

So do not seek approval from Society for breaking it's rules.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

I have found that the folks who want to follow our tradition to the teeth are usually are the ones who care about what others in the society say about them.

At least in my family, these are the poor folks, who are always in the position of slipping in to the poverty abyss of the Indian society.

My mom, when I told her that I was marrying outside of my religion was very much concerned about what our relatives would say, rather than what the merits of my marriage were. She eventually reconciled, because she had the financial security.

People forget that as far as 100 years ago, our community lived in penury, depending on others' benevelance to survive. When the traditional system broke down, the birth based caste system, at least for our community showed it's teeth. As it had to, it rewarded the bright ones in our community with wealth, because of their brightness honed in by our following the knowledge path. But, because it was a (and still is) by birth tradition, we have today a large number of poor relatives. My paternal grandfather had three other brothers. Two of his brothers' families are duds and we supported them even in my generation.

This is the reason for all this stratification in our community. I feel bad for my familiy's poor relatives - I think they are shafted for no fault of their own.

This is the sole reason I oppose quotas of any kind.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sangom]

I think people who are "sure" that what they are doing is "right" do not "seek society's approval" for their actions. It is the conformists (if such labeling is permitted in this thread) who are definitely after it, because not only that they can't but follow customs but they also want as much recognition and publicity for each of their actions. At the same time most of these self-advertised conformists, will have no qualms in breaking "Dharma" or morality on the sly whenever they perceive the slightest benefit for them in doing so. I had the example of one very austere Tabra, who used to visit a number of temples in TVM early in the morning, with broad prominent, vibhuti marks, sanadal, kumkumam and the black "rakshai" from ganapati homams from different temples making his forehead a display of multi-colours. This person was a rank womaniser, was engaged in some shady activities which made him very affluent, etc. But the tabra society stood in awe before him and praised him no end for his religiosity and what not. I am sure he must have been recognised by Sankara Mathams also as a great vaidika brahmana. Such people are typical of making it a point to appear orthodox.

Hence, there can be a rule "be careful of persons who outwardly appear very religious and orthodox and talk vehemently about these".

After Independence and adoption of the Constitution of India by every Indian, the society is circumscribed by the Constitutional provisions and laws enacted thereunder. All of us have necessarily to abide by these. Dharmasastras, rishis' far-sighted rules, and so on and so forth will apply only to the extent those archaic rules of supreme wisdom do not contravene the Constitution and laws. To me this itself is adequate proof that the rishis were not at all far-sighted or gifted with any divine wisdom; they were as ordinary as our Constitution makers and legislators.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

I would describe the terms as follows:

1. Confirmist - Follows the norms of current times
2. Orthodox - Follows the norms of ancient times
3. Non-conformist - Does not follow the norms of current times
4. Reformist - Does not follow the norms of the ancient times

If the norms of the current times is the same as the ancient times, then 1&2 and 3 &4 are the same, otherwise 1&4 and 2&3 are the same.

 

[pviyer]

So do not seek approval from Society for breaking it's rules.

Agree to this.

Why? Because Life is much, very much easier for the conformists

If you mean confirmists are those who are traditionalists then you are wrong.
In the generation that grew up as teens in the sixties and earlier , it may be applicable but not for those of my generation.

When I have to shut up and close my eyes to all those unacceptable things that happen around me in the name of modernity. In the name of modernity, people like me , who sacrifice career abroad, who dont drink and refuse to buy a drink to others, are only considered petty fools, who wear vibhuthi to work and be asked hundreds of questions about it. Make enemies because I casually told some iyer couple( both of whom drink, but I did not know at the time I made my remark), that drinking is a new found fancy for younger generation, handle aunts and relations wailing because of inter racial marriages, having to listen to Lord Krishna being made fun of by cousins,the list is endless. It is all an easy job for me sir, to give up and be like the many others and be popular and be wealthier. Life as a traditionalist past the 2000 is not easy at all for people who have quite a life to live much afterwards.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Agree to this.
If you mean confirmists are those who are traditionalists then you are wrong.
In the generation that grew up as teens in the sixties and earlier , it may be applicable but not for those of my generation.

When I have to shut up and close my eyes to all those unacceptable things that happen around me in the name of modernity. In the name of modernity, people like me , who sacrifice career abroad, who dont drink and refuse to buy a drink to others, are only considered petty fools, who wear vibhuthi to work and be asked hundreds of questions about it. Make enemies because I casually told some iyer couple( both of whom drink, but I did not know at the time I made my remark), that drinking is a new found fancy for younger generation, handle aunts and relations wailing because of inter racial marriages, having to listen to Lord Krishna being made fun of by cousins,the list is endless. It is all an easy job for me sir, to give up and be like the many others and be popular and be wealthier. Life as a traditionalist past the 2000 is not easy at all for people who have quite a life to live much afterwards.

I do understand your feelings.

You know when some one does anything on principle he/she has to understand that

Upholding Principles has Costs attached to it. You have to pay a cost for upholding a principle.

In these days of rampant corruption there are many Indians who are honest. They pay a price for that. In the good old days ( I do not know when it existed) they were appreciated and honored. Then came the days when they were ignored. Then they were picked up and punished. Now they may even lose their lives.

But honest people continue to be honest because that is their principle. They do not want a reward or appreciation. They have self-satisfaction.

This is true of any principle by which a man stands.

Just an aside: If honesty was Universal in the good old days, you would have never had the saying "Satyame vajayete". It would have been a fact. Not a principle to be stated. Truth is Honesty never Won.

The earlier generation ( who are in their sixties) also consist of people who studied abroad, came back to India and spent their life time serving the Government. In BARC. SSTC and even private/public undertakings. They do not wail about their sacrifice.

I know a Professor who did his Doctorate in Physics in the University of Leeds in 1950s. He retired as the Principal of Pattambi Arts College. Pattambi is a small town in Kerala which is predominantly Muslim. He died a happy and contented man.

 

[pviyer]

I do understand your feelings.

You know when some one does anything on principle he/she has to understand that

Upholding Principles has Costs attached to it. You have to pay a cost for upholding a principle.

In these days of rampant corruption there are many Indians who are honest. They pay a price for that. In the good old days ( I do not know when it existed) they were appreciated and honored. Then came the days when they were ignored. Then they were picked up and punished. Now they may even lose their lives.

But honest people continue to be honest because that is their principle. They do not want a reward or appreciation. They have self-satisfaction.

This is true of any principle by which a man stands.

Just an aside: If honesty was Universal in the good old days, you would have never had the saying "Satyame vajayete". It would have been a fact. Not a principle to be stated. Truth is Honesty never Won.

The earlier generation ( who are in their sixties) also consist of people who studied abroad, came back to India and spent their life time serving the Government. In BARC. SSTC and even private/public undertakings. They do not wail about their sacrifice.

My only point is that it is not an easy job of being a traditionalist. I dont wail about it.
It is not that traditionalists are having a field day. We are non conformists in our own way. That is the point

 

[sangom]

Agree to this.
If you mean confirmists are those who are traditionalists then you are wrong.
In the generation that grew up as teens in the sixties and earlier , it may be applicable but not for those of my generation.

When I have to shut up and close my eyes to all those unacceptable things that happen around me in the name of modernity. In the name of modernity, people like me , who sacrifice career abroad, who dont drink and refuse to buy a drink to others, are only considered petty fools, who wear vibhuthi to work and be asked hundreds of questions about it. Make enemies because I casually told some iyer couple( both of whom drink, but I did not know at the time I made my remark), that drinking is a new found fancy for younger generation, handle aunts and relations wailing because of inter racial marriages, having to listen to Lord Krishna being made fun of by cousins,the list is endless. It is all an easy job for me sir, to give up and be like the many others and be popular and be wealthier. Life as a traditionalist past the 2000 is not easy at all for people who have quite a life to live much afterwards.

Shri Iyer,

I heard a story about a giant tree being completely uprooted by the flood waters in a river, whereas, even those savage flood waters could not do anything to grass which was growing on the river banks. So, don't you think that it is better to allow at least the society to take its course - you are perfectly free to follow whatever rules you find fit - and not to get upset with what others are doing?

In that way I am sure your difficulties will be removed to ten percent of the existing level.

I have a distant relative who was sworn to orthodoxy (and brought up so) from his childhood. This orthodoxy-mania at last developed into a phobia about menses impurity (dooramanaaL theeNTal) in his mind which led him, a very brilliant student, to give up his M.A. Sanskrit studies in the midway. Slowly he has gotten into a OCD and spends most of his waking time in the bath room washing his hands and legs with water.

This man (incidentally born 1961) does not get perturbed by my finding fault with him, his god concept, religious ideas etc. Even when I told him that he had not been a good son to his parents (both no more) he simply laughed it off saying, Karma is something none of us can judge. This man's cousin (elder) is very much unorthodox and is a highly placed bank official and very much worldly. The respect he has for his "anna" is very high. I think orthodox people will benefit by such an unperturbed attitude.

 

[nachi naga]

there is always a generation gap.when people talk about about past all the time,they miss the present living time,which is all one has.the future is a probability based on one's action.conformist fall in the category of past,wherein they find their comfort zone.non-confirmist are either trend setters in society or just plain idealist,who are revolutionary in their life and every revolution sets a precedent for future,is my take.living in the moment and being happy is the key to successful living,imho.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Why are we thinking of Conformism and Non-Conformism only in respect of religion. This is wrong.

I have known men who had four to five children when two children were the norm. Some who insisted on their children going only to Government schools when they could very well afford other schools. Some of these principles may seem strange to say the least.

All the people who fought of our independence were non-conformists. Freedom struggles, revolutions were led by non-conformists.

There are many non-conformists among the so called Traditionalists. Like the Vedic pundit who started a Veda Patashala for children of all castes. There were many traditional/orthodox people from all religions among our freedom fighters.

 

[kunjuppu]

Nacchi,

I can think of one very good reason for conformity these days - children.

Till about a generation ago, I would include jobs. But I have a feeling that nowadays, jobs, atleast for most tambrams is achieved without intervention of relatives or recommendations. So one pillar of dependency on conformity has been shattered.

The next is marriage. Recently, when a relative approached another party for marriage on what I consider a suitable match, he was asked for the jadhagam. When my relative replied that he did not believe in it and hence had not created one for his child. The other party wanted the place, hour, date of birth so that they can create a new jadhagam, which my relative refused, as it would violate his principles. The other party dropped the case right away.

With increased love marriages, the dependency on the community for this function too will decrease.

So, I can see a sudden and abrupt dropping of rituals if they appear meaningless or onerous, in the next generation or so. I am saying this dispassionately, as I feel that the threat to our hereditary values is not from without but from within – the enlightened thinking of the current generation. I have always found fault with our ancestors for handing us such a heavy baggage for which we are paying the price of social ostracism from other tamil tribes.

 

[pviyer]

Shri Iyer,

So, don't you think that it is better to allow at least the society to take its course - you are perfectly free to follow whatever rules you find fit - and not to get upset with what others are doing?

It is true that this is the ideal we all want to set for ourselves. Be non judgmental and let each follow his or her own way.
Practical life is difficult as we have to continuously deal with intrusions in our way of life and not to forget getting overboard with sharing our views and hoping to see certain good things come up in society. We may curtail the latter but sometimes when we refuse to co-operate with certain things due to belief in something,we could land up in heavy criticism and loss of friendship. There are many instances when that line of demarcation has never been clear. For example imagine the confusion when I refused to give into the requests of my team, to have a party sponsored by me(with meat and drinks). Someday I might compromise in allowing such a Party because I could feel the annoyance and resigned faces of some others but that is where I am loosing the dividing edge between my principles and the principles among others. I could have argued that they shouldnt have placed such a request knowing my views. Sometimes I have felt that in certain instances the society in west, is more patient and understanding of differences in opinion.

But from idealistic perspective point agreed!

 

[sangom]

Nacchi,

I can think of one very good reason for conformity these days - children.

Till about a generation ago, I would include jobs. But I have a feeling that nowadays, jobs, atleast for most tambrams is achieved without intervention of relatives or with recommendations. So one pillar of dependency on conformity has been shattered.

The next is marriage. Recently, when a relative approached another party for marriage on what I consider a suitable match, he was asked for the jadhagam. When my relative replied that he did not believe in it and hence had not created one for his child. The other party wanted the place, hour, date of birth so that they can create a new jadhagam, which my relative refused, as it would violate his principles. The other party dropped the case right away.

With increased love marriages, the dependency on the community for this function too will decrease.

So, I can see a sudden and abrupt dropping of rituals if they appear meaningless or onerous, in the next generation or so. I am saying this dispassionately, as I feel that the threat to our hereditary values is not from without but from within – the enlightened thinking of the current generation. I have always found fault with our ancestors for handing us such a heavy baggage for which we are paying the price of social ostracism from other tamil tribes.

Dear Kunjuppu,

This is the irony at our Tabra community level and more poignantly at the individual level of some of the tabras who are fervent in espousing the "Brahmanic" values, culture, etc., in an empty "shell" form. These people have very little idea about our scriptures or the vedic or philosophic systems in any meaningful way; they just pick up rudiments like vishnusahasranamam, purushasuktam, rudram+chamakam, and the rest of the usual recipe, and then join some group or the other which claims to excel in a particular area like reciting rudram + chamakam, narayaneeyam, bhagavatam, ramayanam, devee bhagavatam etc. As the number of recitations and their geographical spread increase, their "Brahmanic headweight" increases rather exponentially, I observe! Their son or daughter probably gets to see through this game of make-believes and makes a "bold personal statement" of disapproval by selecting a non-Brahman or even non-Hindu boy and decides to marry him/her, come what may.

I, therefore, feel that the first duty of orthodox tabras is to set right their own personal record, either prove themselves to be really full of the "stuff" of orthodox Brahmanism and start learning the veda, brahmana and upanishads prescribed for them (at least), start living according to the sastraic rules to the extent modern secular law will permit, etc., and only then start eulogizing the Brahmanic glory. Otherwise their high praise of brahmanism will look increasingly like empty "slogans" (like the followers of political leaders who will shout "ki jai" at every prompting) and the very first people who will disparage them will be those who are closest to them. And within the next two or three generations, we (not sure of many of us), and anyway the tabra society will change its entire profile drastically. Already we find our vadhyars becoming very flexible probably because they feel the pulse of the people closest. (There was one incident some time back. For the apara karma of father, the eldest son had come from US and had to leave by noon-flight on the 12th. day. The vadhyar's assistant who was deputed firmly said that the son would not be able to complete all the rites and catch the 12'o clock flight. The main vadhyar was called and reminded that he had agreed to relieve the son in time to catch the flight. The main vadhyar rushed, scrambled through the different parts of the rites, probably adopting various shortcuts and relieved the son in good time. In the bargain the main vadhyar must have pocketed a small fortune!!)

So, the choice before tabras is clear - either allow changes magnanimously accepting that 'our ancestors have loaded us with a very heavy bagage which is absolutely out of date for today' - as Shri Kunjuppu states - and adopt and adapt to all such changes, or, keep on extolling some past glory, but, all the same, change with the times as it is inexorable.

 

[pviyer]

Dear Kunjuppu,


So, the choice before tabras is clear - either allow changes magnanimously accepting that 'our ancestors have loaded us with a very heavy bagage which is absolutely out of date for today' - as Shri Kunjuppu states - and adopt and adapt to all such changes, or, keep on extolling some past glory, but, all the same, change with the times as it is inexorable.

There is a third option which is to
i) walk away from the unspiritual trends in modern culture and
ii) accept the best in modern values that help you stay afloat in society without compromising the most important aspects of your tradition
iii) Continue to reflect on the entire corpus of wisdom left by our elders with reverence and humility even if you cant adopt or see sense in all of them

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I am sorry that even Tamil Brahmins are not aware of their own history. The Unwritten history of a Poor, Brave community which rose from relative obscurity to Prominence in a period of centuries. Which knew how to Survive.

All because it adapted, changed with times and broke out of the traditional mould.

Learn from that history.

It is so important that I do not want it to be part of nay other discussion.

As they say in movie release " To be released shortly." Wait for That. Reserve your comments for that.

 

[kunjuppu]

i am sorry that even tamil brahmins are not aware of their own history. the unwritten history of a poor, brave community which rose from relative obscurity to prominence in a period of centuries. Which knew how to survive.

all because it adapted, changed with times and broke out of the traditional mould.

learn from that history.

It is so important that i do not want it to be part of nay other discussion.

As they say in movie release " to be released shortly." wait for that. Reserve your comments for that.

tamil new years day release?

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Sangom,
I would like to make some observations with reference to your comments in post No. 3. I entirely agree that the Constituition of India has come into force from 26th January,1950,All citizens of INDIA are bound by it.
The CONSTITUTION contains certain 'Directive Principles". The constituition was drafted by eminent persons,none from the present BJP.
Inspite of recommendation by the Supreme Court,I wonder why the Government of the day finds difficulty in passing ACTS approved by Parliament relating to 'UNIFORM CIVIL CODE' & 'COW SLAUGHTER'(COW SLAUGHTER was a pet principle of the Father of the Nation). IF all citizens are equal under the constituition,'Human Rights Commision'
would have been sufficient.Where was the need to establish 'MINORITIES COMMISSION' and the present PM to declare that the first priority
for the 'resources' of the country will be only for a particular community.
Where was the need to have 'HINDU RELIGIOUS ENDOWMENTS BOARD' controlling all big temples and a separate minister(persons who do not
believe that GOD exists)? Hindus could have been allowed to manage their affairs and Government interference will be minimal.

 

[kunjuppu]

BK,

HRCE is an approved org from all sides of hindu society. in tamil nadu, though it was founded by the justice party, even rajaji had only praise for it.

even today, inspite of all criticism, HRCE has done yeoman work, spreading the wealth of richer temples to upkeep of poorer ones. otherwise 90% of temples in tamil nadu will have to be closed.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

HRCE can be traced back to legislation in 1810 by The East India Company. It was called Central Endowment Regulations. There was a Religious Endowment Department in 15th century Andhra Desa. There is an interesting history behind this.

 

[kunjuppu]

HRCE can be traced back to legislation in 1810 by The East India Company. It was called Central Endowment Regulations. There was a Religious Endowment Department in 15th century Andhra Desa. There is an interesting history behind this.

nacchi,

more on this please. i was under the impression that HRCE started with the justice party govt in the 1920s. i will cheerfully admit my mistake.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I will write about HRCE in the temples thread.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Coming back to my original point, the Bride's father wants to ensure that all the Brahmin rituals are done. He wants even Seer, Upacharam etc.etc. to be tha Brahmin way. He is going around asking all the Brahmins of his acquaintance about all this. But I wonder whether they are all laughing behind his back. Because this marriage is not approved. Period. I do not have the heart to tell the poor man who is spending money like water.

My children went to Public schools. Residential schools. I could not send them to Eton or Harrow. So I sent them to the best public school in India. There were very few South Indians there leave alone Brahmins. They left home at the age of ten. My relatives called me crazy. Then later I was breeding Dogs. Golden Cocker spaniels. Then myself and my wife took part in car rallies. As a husband and wife team.

This was acceptable behavior in certain section of the society. That section included Tamil Brahmins though not many.

So your actions is conformist or non-conformist depending on the rules of the section of society you belong to.

That is what is called peer group acceptance. Of course this is used mainly for predicting the behavior of school children and adolescents. But it does have a relevance to the society as a whole.

I could expand on this.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri.Sangom,
I would like to make some observations with reference to your comments in post No. 3. I entirely agree that the Constituition of India has come into force from 26th January,1950,All citizens of INDIA are bound by it.
The CONSTITUTION contains certain 'Directive Principles". The constituition was drafted by eminent persons,none from the present BJP.
Inspite of recommendation by the Supreme Court,I wonder why the Government of the day finds difficulty in passing ACTS approved by Parliament relating to 'UNIFORM CIVIL CODE' & 'COW SLAUGHTER'(COW SLAUGHTER was a pet principle of the Father of the Nation). IF all citizens are equal under the constituition,'Human Rights Commision'
would have been sufficient.Where was the need to establish 'MINORITIES COMMISSION' and the present PM to declare that the first priority
for the 'resources' of the country will be only for a particular community.

Here, we will have to concede the lack of courage to fight for principles, on the part of hindus. But having said that, it has to be immediately remarked that hindus are not a united community for any purpose and the distrust of the higher castes by Sudras and Dalits was perhaps much higher immediately after Independence, once the common enemy viz., the British were evicted. The minorities (euphemism for Muslims) may have caste/sect divisions but when it comes to their common problem especially Muslims vs Hindus issue, all Muslims are one. (This is nothing new or strange; all Indians were one as against the British, though some small groups did have soft corner for the British and would have liked the British domination to continue.)

Muslims are ready to sacrifice even their lives for the sake of religion. May be it is a result of religious indoctrination of young minds, but they do have that attacking force which now the whole world knows - the Jihadis. Do the Hindus have any such outfit? Did they like to shed even a little blood for any religious cause?

Where was the need to have 'HINDU RELIGIOUS ENDOWMENTS BOARD' controlling all big temples and a separate minister(persons who do not believe that GOD exists)? Hindus could have been allowed to manage their affairs and Government interference will be minimal.

This, as Shri Iniyan says has a long history, which he will detail. But to put it briefly, temples for the hindus were treasuries ( and much, much more than that) traditionally but which used to be controlled and enjoyed by the priest community. (Even today, there is the case of the ornaments gifted to TTD Lord by Krishnadevaraya which has just vanished into thin air!) Mohammad Ghazni and others invaded Somnath temple more for the riches than anything else. Since there was rampant misuse of temple treasures by those who controlled it, all people felt that some governmental control would be a good thing. This only goes to prove, IMO, that the Brahmans were as corrupt as our contemporary politicians whom we accuse, probably because we now don't have the chance to make corrupt money. (The signal moral from viswamitra-Menaka episode is that however much a person may claim orthodoxy, honesty, etc., it is difficult to withstand worldly attractions. All this high talk of philosophy, rishis (viswamitra was one, wasn't he?) divine powers, etc., is complete bunkum.) And the Brahmans/hindus could not limit themselves within the limits of honesty and failed in managing the temples prudently and honestly.

The Pazhani idol case is a recent telling example of priests making money out of the idol itself.

 

[suraju06]

BK,

HRCE is an approved org from all sides of hindu society. in tamil nadu, though it was founded by the justice party, even rajaji had only praise for it.

even today, inspite of all criticism, HRCE has done yeoman work, spreading the wealth of richer temples to upkeep of poorer ones. otherwise 90% of temples in tamil nadu will have to be closed.

Mr. Kunjupu,

You are far away from the country and so you are not fully aware of what is happening here. The HR &CE Board manages all the properties of the temples by letting out shops in towns at rents which are still in the range of Rs.70/- per month which is unimaginable in the case of a nearby property owned and managed by the CSI(Church of South India). Whatever income is earned in spite of such total mismanagement is distributed in the salary and allowances(which keeps going up automatically with every jump in the consumer price index) of the employees of the Board which include non-believers. The Archakas of the village temples get even todayjust 3 கோட்டை நெல்லும் 3 படி நல்லெண்ணையும் per year and wallow in poverty. The wealth of the rich temples is spread not among the poorer temples in any scientific organised way but among the tenents of the temple properties and the officers and other staff managing the HR & CE Board at different levels.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Here, we will have to concede the lack of courage to fight for principles, on the part of hindus. But having said that, it has to be immediately remarked that hindus are not a united community for any purpose and the distrust of the higher castes by Sudras and Dalits was perhaps much higher immediately after Independence, once the common enemy viz., the British were evicted. The minorities (euphemism for Muslims) may have caste/sect divisions but when it comes to their common problem especially Muslims vs Hindus issue, all Muslims are one. (This is nothing new or strange; all Indians were one as against the British, though some small groups did have soft corner for the British and would have liked the British domination to continue.)

Muslims are ready to sacrifice even their lives for the sake of religion. May be it is a result of religious indoctrination of young minds, but they do have that attacking force which now the whole world knows - the Jihadis. Do the Hindus have any such outfit? Did they like to shed even a little blood for any religious cause?

This, as Shri Iniyan says has a long history, which he will detail. But to put it briefly, temples for the hindus were treasuries ( and much, much more than that) traditionally but which used to be controlled and enjoyed by the priest community. (Even today, there is the case of the ornaments gifted to TTD Lord by Krishnadevaraya which has just vanished into thin air!) Mohammad Ghazni and others invaded Somnath temple more for the riches than anything else. Since there was rampant misuse of temple treasures by those who controlled it, all people felt that some governmental control would be a good thing. This only goes to prove, IMO, that the Brahmans were as corrupt as our contemporary politicians whom we accuse, probably because we now don't have the chance to make corrupt money. (The signal moral from viswamitra-Menaka episode is that however much a person may claim orthodoxy, honesty, etc., it is difficult to withstand worldly attractions. All this high talk of philosophy, rishis (viswamitra was one, wasn't he?) divine powers, etc., is complete bunkum.) And the Brahmans/hindus could not limit themselves within the limits of honesty and failed in managing the temples prudently and honestly.

The Pazhani idol case is a recent telling example of priests making money out of the idol itself.

Temples do/did have a lot of money. Some people took advantage and made off with a lot of temple properties. Many of them were Brahmins. But not In Tamil Nadu.

But NOT THE PRIESTS. The Priests were and are only employees who were/are never paid well.

Tamples were and are Public trusts. The management was entrusted to Trustees. Maths/Adheenams and group of people. The Maths/Adheenams were Brahmin and non-Brahmin. The people who were in charge of the Maths and other trustees were responsible for the deprivation of the temple's wealth.

Priests were employed by the Trustees. The trustees were rich and powerful.

If Jewels disappear in Thirupathi temple it is because of the people who managed the temple. Rich powerful people.

Please do not blame the priests.