Who is delusional, really?

[sravna]

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It struck me suddenly when thinking of Prof.Nara's repeated categorization of believer's beliefs as having no firm basis and dismissing them are merely delusions, as strange and ironic that a believer in physical reality calls belief in spirituality as delusional. Let us see what it means for something to be delusional. Let us start with the case of a mirage. It is a physical illusion. It does not exist but it is perceived by all. But we eventually we come to know it doesn't exist and therefore an illusion. Instead we see the reality in its place. So when there is an illusion, there should also be a reality.

When Nara calls the believers as delusional, there are two possible scenarios given that there is an underlying reality:

1. The reality is not actually seen by the believers. Therefore they are indeed delusions.

2. The reality is not seen by the non believers. Therefore it is they who are delusional.

So one of them is delusional, otherwise it will be seen in the same way by all.

Also the illusion is seen first then comes the realization of reality. From the perspective of non believers , they should have the their illusion first which is belief in God and latter get the realization, shall I say just like Dr.Y

When you think of conversion of beleivers to non believers it is mainly out of negative expereinces, that is perception of the world moving away from the ideal to the diminished. But when you think of it further, reality cannot be diminished than the illusion. So IMO, the believers have a more plausible thesis than the non believers and the believers have a better reason to call the non believers delusional than vice versa.

Any thoughts, especially you Prof.Nara?

 

[Nara]

... Let us see what it means for something to be delusional. Let us start with the case of a mirage. It is a physical illusion. It does not exist but it is perceived by all. But we eventually we come to know it doesn't exist and therefore an illusion. Instead we see the reality in its place. So when there is an illusion, there should also be a reality.

sravna, when we see a mirage and realize it is an illusion, the right approach is to try and understand what is happening, observe, analyze, synthesize, you know take a scoentific approach and develop a rational explanation. To understand why we see mirage take a look at this explanation.

Just to make up some explanation and continue to not only believe in it, but teach it to unsuspecting and trusting children is not very rational.

BTW, my position is not people of faith are delusional in all respects, only that their faith is a delusion. If you want to say not accepting this delusion makes me even more delusional than vice versa, what could I say but smile and let it go. Here it is !!

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

"From the perspective of non believers , they should have the their illusion first which is [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]belief [/FONT][FONT=inherit !important]in [/FONT][FONT=inherit !important]God[/FONT][/FONT] and latter get the realization, shall I say just like Dr.Y- Sravna in the OP

Dear Sravna:

The illusion I had was what was imparted by my parents. As long as I was a dependent kid, I was following blindly what my parents were preaching me.

Once I went to College, I started thinking for myself.. I asked very many questions and consulted with godmen.

Finally when I was age 21/22 I realized that what I have been following as God & Religion is an ILLUSION. And I must get out of it ASAP.

That's what I did. I did not change my course one bit since.

My life experience in the last about 40 years confirms my position as a self-proclaimed Atheist.

That's all.

Cheers.

 

[sravna]

Dear N and Y,

OK you are not saying anything different from what I said Both of you say you analyze and come to a rational conclusion. But what is the basis of your analysis? Expereinces. Be it yours or others.

Also, I gave the example of mirage to show: (1) Illusion is temporary (2) There is no or only less fulfilling experience in something temporary.

I also used the mirage example to show that illusion has a reality and when there is an illusion, it is always seen before the reality. Therefore it follows if non believers were right, the thesis that the reality is less fulfilling would be true and that logic is not true because reality is always more fulfilling than an illusion.

 

[Yamaka]

Who's delusional?

I here use "delusion" as a belief against all existing facts... or reasoning.

Let me tell a small story and conclude as to who's delusional:

I take long walk (about 2.5 miles one way - about 40 min one way trip) almost everyday around 7pm-midnight along a bayou (similar to Coovam river, much cleaner! ). There is a paved walkway parallel to the bayou lined with big trees, and it goes under large bridges. Cyclists, joggers and walkers use it regularly... but during New Moon days hardly any will be seen there. But, for Yamaka it doesn't matter whether it's a Full Moon day or a New Moon day..he always walks to clear his "crowded brain" Lol.

Suppose some Believers expect that Yamaka will be one day attacked by a Spirit (= ghost) or a SNA on a New Moon day under the bridge!

But Yamaka thinks from all the knowledge and experience he has that such things will NEVER EVER happen.

He says, "It's delusional to think that a Super Natural Agent in the form of a Spirit (= Ghost) will ever attack me during my long walk".

Clearly, in the last 15 years or so, nothing happened. And there is no chance that it will ever happen.

Now, tell me who's delusional?

Believers of the presence of ghosts and SNA!

Cheers.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Actually none of us need to worry about who is delusional or who isnt.Tell me who isnt delusional under the sway of Maya?

Yad Bhavam Tad Bhavati(As you think so you become) and this includes even what we think of others.

Thats why its easier to think less about everything and just Bhajo Govindam, Bhajo Govindam.

 

[sravna]

Who's delusional?

I here use "delusion" as a belief against all existing facts... or reasoning.

Let me tell a small story and conclude as to who's delusional:

I take long walk (about 2.5 miles one way - about 40 min one way trip) almost everyday around 7pm-midnight along a bayou (similar to Coovam river, much cleaner! ). There is a paved walkway parallel to the bayou lined with big trees, and it goes under large bridges. Cyclists, joggers and walkers use it regularly... but during New Moon days hardly any will be seen there. But, for Yamaka it doesn't matter whether it's a Full Moon day or a New Moon day..he always walks to clear his "crowded brain" Lol.

Suppose some Believers expect that Yamaka will be one day attacked by a Spirit (= ghost) or a SNA on a New Moon day under the bridge!

But Yamaka thinks from all the knowledge and experience he has that such things will NEVER EVER happen.

He says, "It's delusional to think that a Super Natural Agent in the form of a Spirit (= Ghost) will ever attack me during my long walk".

Clearly, in the last 15 years or so, nothing happened. And there is no chance that it will ever happen.

Now, tell me who's delusional?

Believers of the presence of ghosts and SNA!

Cheers.

You are really funny Shri Yamaka. No other comments

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Actually none of us need to worry about who is delusional or who isnt.Tell me who isnt delusional under the sway of Maya?

Yad Bhavam Tad Bhavati(As you think so you become) and this includes even what we think of others.

Thats why its easier to think less about everything and just Bhajo Govindam, Bhajo Govindam.

Dear Renuka,

I was just trying to bring out the irony in Shri Nara's persistent remarks that belief in the existence of God is just a delusion. One more point is, even though everybody is under the sway of maya, I think those who firmly believe in God are less so and have crossed an important threshold. What do you think?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I was just trying to bring out the irony in Shri Nara's persistent remarks that belief in the existence of God is just a delusion. One more point is, even though everybody is under the sway of maya, I think those who firmly believe in God are less so and have crossed an important threshold. What do you think?

Dear Sravna,

My post was like a general statement..for example.. Theists might feel Atheists are delusional and Atheist might feel Theist are delusional.
What I meant is both are delusional under the sway of Maya and we become what we think of one another.

Ok coming to this line of yours;

I think those who firmly believe in God are less so and have crossed an important threshold. What do you think?​

My answer is I really dont know.Sravna, what seems like having firm faith in God outwardly might just be the total opposite inwardly.
For all you know the people who have believe in God might be having faith for reasons best known to them.

Just say..tomorrow God decides to come down and calls for a conference and tells everyone.."Ok guys..Vaikuntha/Shivaloka/Brahmaloka is under renovation and temporarily I am going on Silent Mode and wont respond to any of your prayers and till renovation is over all departed souls will be placed in Patala loka or Antaraloka and you will have to bear the inconvenience encountered there"

I am sure most people will get real mad and say "how can You do this..I have done countless poojas/homas/daanams etc..and is this what I get?

So Sravna..we can never really generalize.

On the other hand..a so called lack of believe in God could happen due to circumstances and some might regain the believe after a while.
They could be going through a phase in life where they are experiencing life as an Atheist which is actually what was written for them per their Karma..

Who knows all of us present day believers could have gone through this in a previous life or go through this in our next life.
Arent we all supposed to go through every stage of life till we attain perfection?
So called "imperfect" stages in life can come in any sequence.

So right now it might even be a delusion that we actually think we are believers or non believers.Only God really knows the answer to your question.


Just to add Sravna..didnt Adi Shankara experience life as King in order to experience life as a person still attached to sensual enjoyment?
same way..our body goes through experiences in each life and the Atma just remains a witness and unsullied.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

I agree that the imperfect stages happen till the very end when you attain perfection.

Again one interesting aspect about the physical world. There always seems to be two or more sides because if something goes in excess the other needs to put back the balance. The extreme cases are not allowed to take root if their excess is undesirable, and there is always something that acts as a deterrent. What do you think on this?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Also without an adversary and someone prodding you all the time, you wouldn't put in your best effort to improve. So the presence of diverse opinions is beneficial to all. It is how the world is probably designed to be, a clever design indeed.

 

[renuka]

Again one interesting aspect about the physical world. There always seems to be two or more sides because if something goes in excess the other needs to put back the balance. The extreme cases are not allowed to take root if their excess is undesirable, and there is always something that acts as a deterrent. What do you think on this?

Well..lets think of a simple example..say during a war many males die and post war we will see more baby boys born.
Nature balances the imbalance I guess.

Coming to extremes of cases..I think when we are born even our vasanas have a bar code with best before date/month/year..so any extreme case also meets its end finally.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Also without an adversary and someone prodding you all the time, you wouldn't put in your best effort to improve. So the presence of diverse opinions is beneficial to all. It is how the world is probably designed to be, a clever design indeed.

Dear Sravna,

Your first line

Also without an adversary and someone prodding you all the time, you wouldn't put in your best effort to improve.

I beg to differ a little in the sense that this type of behaviour is mainly seen in those who are competitive purely with the motivate to emerge the best when compared to others.

These type of people need others to be their yardstick and if heavy competition is not there,they tend to slack.
They need both winners and even losers for an ego boost to succeed in life.

On the other hand..there are others who set their own goal and their own goal is not dependent on the success or failure or even the competition of others.

These are the individuals that are contented with life's ups and down and make it all the way to the top without falling off the cliff of ego.

 

[sravna]

Can we say the effect of diversity is to strike a balance, bring about unity through that diversity?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Your first line
I beg to differ a little in the sense that this type of behaviour is mainly seen in those who are competitive purely with the motivate to emerge the best when compared to others.

These type of people need others to be their yardstick and if heavy competition is not there,they tend to slack.
They need both winners and even losers for an ego boost to succeed in life.

On the other hand..there are others who set their own goal and their own goal is not dependent on the success or failure or even the competition of others.

These are the individuals that are contented with life's ups and down and make it all the way to the top without falling off the cliff of ego.

Yes Renuka, but how do you reach that self propelling stage?

 

[renuka]

Yes Renuka, but how do you reach that self propelling stage?

By the unfolding of our inner propelling capacity from God in the form of Mata, Pita,Guru and Deivam also also doesnt the mantra go "dhiyo yo nah prachodayat?"

So far in my life as a child..all I heard my mum and dad shout at me was "Renu stop studying and go to sleep please".

To my brothers it will be "get up and study your exams are near"

Finally all of us in the family turned out fine in our careers.

 

[sarang]

Applies for organizations too; some set plans for growth benchmarking competitors; some set their own goals without worrying about others - they are the innovators.

Dear Sravna,

Your first line
I beg to differ a little in the sense that this type of behaviour is mainly seen in those who are competitive purely with the motivate to emerge the best when compared to others.

These type of people need others to be their yardstick and if heavy competition is not there,they tend to slack.
They need both winners and even losers for an ego boost to succeed in life.

On the other hand..there are others who set their own goal and their own goal is not dependent on the success or failure or even the competition of others.

These are the individuals that are contented with life's ups and down and make it all the way to the top without falling off the cliff of ego.

 

[ozone]

Dear Renuka,

Also without an adversary and someone prodding you all the time, you wouldn't put in your best effort to improve.

that needs a qualifier to make it real. - 'An adversary whose interest is to bring in the best out of you'.
If in a school, all that a teacher does is be critical with whatever you do, or whatever you come up with, no child is going to take steps to be better. At best, the child will become another adversary.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Renuka,

Also without an adversary and someone prodding you all the time, you wouldn't put in your best effort to improve. So the presence of diverse opinions is beneficial to all. It is how the world is probably designed to be, a clever design indeed.

Very well said Shri Sravna,

The world indeed has been designed very cleverly. The presense of diverse opinions is beneficial to all. With out the presense of diverse opinions we can not have the maximum possible understandings of human feelings, different values, thought process, pros and cons and subsequent outcome. And what the life is all about. Also helps us with specific kind of tools to leverage as the situation demands. A knowledge of criminal's methods/ideas/tricks may be helpful to you in a demanding situation to rescue yourself or others for good.

Everything- Good-Bad, Pure-Impure, Proponents-Opponents, Moral-Immoral, Ethical-Unethical, Selfishness-Selflesness, Ego-Egodystonic, Calmness-Anger, Loss-Gain, Acceptance-Rejection, Care-Carelessness, Compassion-Callousness, Likes-Deslikes, Belief-Disbelief, Trust-Distrust, Sweetness-Bitterness, Awareness-Ignorance etc..etc..are all the absolute essense for the existence of this world and Human Life. And these are perfectly balanced for the very pupose of this creation and evolution of Life.

And as you said (as per the thread tittle), the consideration of belief in God/Spirituality as Supreme Absolute Consciousness/Reality beyond space and time, that has its influences on this world and our life, is very much/obviously in conjunction with the essense of this clever design, though it appears to be an illusion/mirage to us desirous humans.

 

[renuka]

Hey guys..try this quiz for fun

Are You Guilty Of Pride?

Beliefnet Quizzes

 

[zebra16]

Hey guys..try this quiz for fun

Are You Guilty Of Pride?

Beliefnet Quizzes

Let me visit here periodically and verify how many truthfully post their scores!!

 

[C RAVI]

Hey guys..try this quiz for fun

Are You Guilty Of Pride?

Beliefnet Quizzes

Dear Renuka,

I generally don't believe in the existence of Guilty consciousness in Humans with their sense of Pride.

All that matters negatively with the sense of Pride is, how you act and react with others with your sense of Pride.

I went through the Quiz and found all the questions stupid and meaningless that were all towards exploring "Are you guilty of your Pride"

 

[sravna]

that needs a qualifier to make it real. - 'An adversary whose interest is to bring in the best out of you'.
If in a school, all that a teacher does is be critical with whatever you do, or whatever you come up with, no child is going to take steps to be better. At best, the child will become another adversary.

Dear Ozone,

IMO, the world is the quintessential school. Even in the above case, the child learns something , even if something that it needs to unlearn. So every experience contributes something towards your learning in one way or the other.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Ozone,

IMO, the world is the quintessential school.

Are there other places to learn too?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I generally don't believe in the existence of Guilty consciousness in Humans with their sense of Pride.

All that matters negatively with the sense of Pride is, how you act and react with others with your sense of Pride.

I went through the Quiz and found all the questions stupid and meaningless that were all towards exploring "Are you guilty of your Pride"

Dear Ravi,

The questions are not stupid and meaningless but dwells deep into our true self.
Most quiz on psychology are like this...its never straight forward.