Where does the Human soul live in the body?

[Govinda]

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Shri Govindaji, As Shri Raghy says, human knowledge about "death" is as yet, inadequate. The various Sanskrit terms like Jiva, Chitta, Manas, etc., have not been clearly "defined" in our scriptures, imho. When we try to express in an English post, there is further confusion created by the inter-mixing of words like soul, heart, etc. In such a confused maze, any one explanation will, imho, be as good or as bad as another. So, I will not enter into any arguments/debate. It, nevertheless, seems to me that the "soul" or "Atma" cannot be like a quantized packet but should be more like a universal field, present everywhere, all the time. The living bodies "live" because of this 'field' functioning throughout those bodies. There is no soul or Atma located specifically in the physiological heart; as for the philosophical 'heart', 'Chitta', 'Buddhi', 'consciousness', etc., I don't know what is actually meant, and so no comments.

Pl. dont give your randomized opinions.

If you donot know, reply with respect to my answers/logic (and the references). You can dodge, but Pl. stop giving your false views.

 

[Raghy]

Pl. dont give your randomized opinions.

If you donot know, reply with respect to my answers/logic (and the references). You can dodge, but Pl. stop giving your false views.

Sri. Govinda, Greetings.

When a person says he/she doesn't know and says he/she doesn't want to debate, it is not dodging. Any expressed view is just view. To call it 'false view' is not correct in my opinion. Any discussion can be more pleasant than this.

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

Sri. Govinda, Greetings. When a person says he/she doesn't know and says he/she doesn't want to debate, it is not dodging. Any expressed view is just view. To call it 'false view' is not correct in my opinion. Any discussion can be more pleasant than this. Cheers!

Mr. Raghy,

Post # 16 is not only illogical, but unscientific. I didnt have either a science degree or vedic degree. But, it is just the simple logic & with our practical knowledge/perception, we are discussing and use references like Science documents and Scriptures.

When he can quote his view, why cant he discuss the views with reference to science or scripture? You gave an untimely reply (# 23), and Sangom sir dodged from proving his persistent wrong views. We should discuss, prove or unprove things. We should correct our views, after what was proved right. When one can present one's views against a OP, when that is being questioned, he is obliged to answer.

This is exactly the case of that US boy who ditched the girl for his own views/opinions!! Bring things out and discuss. Else, such undiscussed views cannot be agreed upon or divorced either!!

Sangom Ji,

Sorry for the offense. But, just that we indians (including me) have a nature of just parroting or posting our views, without having to verify or analyze, and I used this as a chance to point out that observation. So, that we can take a note of that consciously!!

 

[ozone]

अङ्गुष्ठ मात्र: पुरुषो ऽन्तरात्मा
सदा जनानां ह्र्दये सन्निविष्ट: - kathopanishad

 

[sravna]

Brahman as we know is everywhere and is eternal. So a soul that is realized is everywhere and eternal. Jivatma of other humans have limitations and are not totally in sync with the ultimate reality. IMO, since the physical world is a projection of the spiritual reality, the human body is also a projection of the jivatma. It is projected till the soul becomes one with brahman.

There may be a locus of the soul in the human body. I think in the scriptures it is said that heart is the locus of the soul.

 

[P.J.]

Padman Ji,

Ref: Post #13

To support this, there are other references.

Gita 2.17, that indestructible Soul pervades the destructible body.

Gita 15.15, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto , Sri Krishna says He is the Supersoul in the heart of all beings.

Gita 15. 16, 17 ,18, He says, 'There are two persons/beings - kshara (perishable) stuck in samsara, Akshara (imperishable) released from samsra (blessed with moksha). Above theseare the Supreme PErson. He who Knows ME as that Supreme Person, and worships Me, knoss all. These verses coherently, concludes the Individual Self is the experiencing this life and Supreme Self is the other person to be Worshipped.

Mundaka has this verse , " Two birds of the same tree, one enjoys and the other watches as witness". Katha - "Two entered into the cavity of Heart, one is un-intelligent and the other one is completely blissful'.

Sve Upa "I know that One Person, knowing Him alone one goes beyond death".

Br. Upa "To whom the Individual Self is the body". This means that Heart of the Individual Self is the Supreme Person.

Gita 15.8, "Whatever body its lord (jiva) acquries and from whatever body it departs, It goes on its way, taking these senses". This implies, that the individual carries its Karma/Individuality and born again accordingly.

In support of the above verse, Upa. states that "the Supreme Soul is not affected by the blemishes/Karma of the soul it pervades", thus, the one leaving the body with Karma is the Individual Self (Jiva).

Sri Govinda Sir
Thanks for your additional information
regards
Padmanabhan.J

 

[P.J.]

Death, according to Hinduism, is a series of changes through which an individual passes. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad describes thus the passing of a soul:
When the soul departs from the body, the life-breath follows: when the life-breath departs, all the organs follow. Then the soul becomes endowed with particularized consciousness and goes to the body which is related to that consciousness.
Hinduism (part 4)

 

[sangom]

Shri Govindaji,

In matters such as Atma, Brahman, locus of the Atma/Jiva and so on, I am of the view that our scriptures are as unproved as, say, my views, your views or the views of PJ, Sravna, ozone or anyone else here. Because some people unquestioningly accept whatever they find under the scriptures, for such people these scriptural views become as much true and valid as scientific truths which have to be proved first, before those are accepted as valid.

I feel all the views put forward in the various threads are as relevant and are worthy of consideration, as some of those put forward in scriptures; but ideas like अङ्गुष्ठ मात्र:, ह्र्दये सन्निविष्ट:, etc., are unproved hypotheses only. If some अङ्गुष्ठ मात्र: पुरुष: is always seated (सन्निविष्ट:) in the heart of people, by now our surgeons must definitely have some idea or knowledge about it. Such a thing has not happened and so I tend to consider this as well as similar तस्याः शिखाया मध्ये परमात्मा व्यवस्थितः, etc., as examples of poetic imagination of bygone times, as efforts to explain by means of similes, etc. That was why I politely declined from entering into arguments. But you seem not prepared to let things go.

So, now you can either try to prove that what you say is the correct thing, that this is exactly where the human soul is situated and so on, but simply citing scriptural pronouncements to prove the veracity is not sufficient. Alternatively, you may disprove my views by solid physical, scientific evidence and establish that the soul or Atma is not what I say. Here also, the jaded argument that scriptures say differently and so my views should be wrong, will be unacceptable till such time someone can give scientifically acceptable evidence to prove the veracity of those scriptural statements.

Since these look to be impossible, I once again feel that we need not try to establish the truth of Atma (soul), its size, its locus, what happens to it on death of the living person, etc. But if you prefer a "markkaTamuShTi", you may kindly go ahead, unilaterally.

 

[prasad1]

Let us talk in "scientific terms", where does the electrical energy reside in the transmission wire? All over. Similarly the Atma resides all over. If a piece of electric wire is cut off the transmission it is not live, so too when the body is cutoff from this life force it is dead.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

PURE I-CON = SOUL = PARAMATMA=JEEVATMA = BRAHMAM

PURE I-CON ?

When one identitfy self with body ...not pure I-con,
When one identity self with senses/mind = not pure I-CON.

then the simply "Naan UNNARVU" that's all. the "naan" unarvu without bonding to body mind complex , can anybody sense that ?

Parathi Bhudham nee alla - you are not pancha butha
unni paar - think over it
indhriya karanamum nee alla - you are not sense , your are not mind
yaraay? - then who?
nee unnarvu - YOU are the consciousness that is always buzzing " I" , the constant shruti.

because of this only , after a sound sleep , you can wake up and say I slept well.

Is it that tough to understand oneself ?

if you think you are alpa , limited , it is coz , you are identifying yourself with either your body or mind. the problem lies here. reflect o intelligent ones, reflect.

seek god's, guru's help.

 

[Raghy]

Death, according to Hinduism, is a series of changes through which an individual passes. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad describes thus the passing of a soul:
When the soul departs from the body, the life-breath follows: when the life-breath departs, all the organs follow. Then the soul becomes endowed with particularized consciousness and goes to the body which is related to that consciousness.
Hinduism (part 4)

Dear Sri. Padmanabhan, Greetings.

That link provided by you has not given me a clear understanding of 'death'. I do not seek my answers at the upanishad level. I am a simple person who seeks answers at a simple and clear level.

Few hundred years ago in Europe, when they exhumed a body for certain requirements, it was noticed the inside of the coffin cover was covered with deep scratch marks and the body was curled in a different postion than it was laid to rest. They realised the 'dead person' was not really dead, tried to get out and eventually died in the coffin.. not a very pleasant thought. So, they started installing bells connected to the corpse's wrist; the bell was mounted outside. If the 'dead person' inside becomes alive and move the hand, that in turn activated the bell to toll and hopefully gets noticed and the person gets dug out.. that was the general idea.

Although we have covered bit of a ground from that stage, still we haven't understood 'death' yet. If we really understand 'death', then it can be reversed. I am looking at death from a different prespective. I am not so keen about unproven hypothesis; I am seeking undestanding, in an objective way.

Cheers!

 

[P.J.]

Sri Raghy Sir

Greetings
What is death?

1 Dictionary Definition of Death

Death is defined as the cessation of all vital functions of the body including the heartbeat, brain activity (including the brain stem), and breathing.

death - definition of death in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

2 Christianity defines death as “. Man is soil and returns to the soil (Gen.3:19). The spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc.12:7). The soul returns to the unseen whence it came (Psa.9:17 and Acts 2:27,31).

3 Death, according to Hinduism, is a series of changes through which an individual passes. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad describes thus the passing of a soul:
When the soul departs from the body, the life-breath follows: when the life-breath departs, all the organs follow. Then the soul becomes endowed with particularized consciousness and goes to the body which is related to that consciousness.


4 Traditionally Islamic jurisprudence defines death as complete cessation of the heart or respiration

Nowadays Medical profession follow the first definition when one approaches them for a death certificate.

If someone in medical profession gives a wrong death certificate for a living person, he is only answerable to Law, his conscience and to the Almighty.

 

[Govinda]

nee unnarvu - YOU are the consciousness that is always buzzing " I" , the constant shruti.

because of this only , after a sound sleep , you can wake up and say I slept well.

Is it that tough to understand oneself ?

if you think you are alpa , limited , it is coz , you are identifying yourself with either your body or mind. the problem lies here. reflect o intelligent ones, reflect.

seek god's, guru's help..

HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA (HRHK),

What an unexisting proof!!

If consciousness is all that exits, then during sound sleep you should still be remebering everything. After you wake up, why do you say 'I slept well', you should be saying 'My consciousness slept well'. Then if one's leg is broken, he should be feeling pain all over the body and only be thinking of that pain all the time. But, in reality we dont. We feel the pain only in that part. Thus, you (as a Self/Soul) are the agent of consciousness, not all the parts of body. You as the agent, is forcing the consciousness to rest/sleep, not think or bother about anything!! There are people who force themselves not to sleep. There are people like me who turn off the alarm and sleep more!

Conversely, If soul is everywhere, he should be thinking of all the memory and the knowledge he had so far all the time, he should be thinking his parents, siblings even when he is intimate with his wife too! But , it is not true in reality. One thinks of a thing, only when he is engaged with it (in contact with senses or mind/thought). So, Soul/Self is only the agent, residing in the heart , whose main-property is Consciousness(Intelligence/Awareness) that is pervaded all over his body. The bodily senses and the mind only helps him to function his Will/Wants.

So, It is I, the Self, that is buzzing the Consciousness all over my body. If I am just consciousness, part of that Undifferentiated Universal consciousness (Some illogical chatter!), then you should all be giving thumbs up to my answers! All of us will be thinking and doing and feeling the same way. Thus, Ones' consciousness is a limited property of that Self.

That is silly of you, to call that body as alpa. Body is a complex organic system. The food, water and Fat you take, translates to mind, blood and speech. All the latter elements, work to execute the will/desire of the Person(Jiva). Though the person lives, if the brain fails, he cannot execute his will/desire to live or love or medidate or realize. We see so much distress/suffering, the diabled go through in accomplishing even simple tasks/desires. "aridhu aridhu mAnidarai piratthal aridhu, adhaninum aridhu goon kurudu sevidu pedu neengi pirathal aridhu", avaiyaar's ponmozhi. A perfect body is a greatest, merciful gift from God (though based on our karma). Use reason, logic, give up parrotting and learn the right way, and follow it right!!!

You should change your Guru. Does he have a vedic Sampradaya, that discusses logic or he is a self-proclaimed guru? Plus, Change your name, you failed to understand GITA and accept KrishnA's words.

 

[Govinda]

Let us talk in "scientific terms", where does the electrical energy reside in the transmission wire? All over. Similarly the Atma resides all over. If a piece of electric wire is cut off the transmission it is not live, so too when the body is cutoff from this life force it is dead.

Prasad Ji,

Pl. care to read my posts sincerely and then question the logic.

That is a wrong analogy.

The power supply(Jiva) is from where the electricity flows, the transmittion wire (copper) is just a conductor of electricity. The faulty transmission wire is like the body/organs whose line of conduction failed, but that power supply can light all other lines(organs) in the house. [Another example, the hair grows from the root, thus when it is cut short, it grows again. Like the current, the nutrients flow down the hair. Split hairs dont grow, becos it has faulty transmission. But, when one is bald, his hair (root) doesnt grow!]

As long as the conductor is alive(Jiva), then the electricity (Consciousness) flows through out that wire/line. If the middle of the wire is cut, you will experience shock at the cut end, becos the electricity is flowing there.

If the arms are cut, still the person is conscious and be able to execute his desire (like paint with his legs or write his exam with legs, stephen hawkins can use voice interpreter to discuss with Richard Dawkins).

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

govinda ji
please avoid reading my post. mine is based on advaita you are from dvaita school i think.

just ignore my chatters .

 

[Govinda]

govinda ji please avoid reading my post. mine is based on advaita you are from dvaita school i think. just ignore my chatters .

School doesnot matter, but the logic matters. Logic/Reality cannot be two!

If medical schools have different understanding of Human Biology, Most of the surgeries, blood test would have failed the patients! They a;ll folow common standard medical Reference.

Bhagavad Gita is a common text/standard for all schools. When the reference or resource is one, how can there be multiple understanding or logic??

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

what to do? that's how it is . from one source only we have 3 types of schools

 

[Govinda]

what to do? that's how it is . from one source only we have 3 types of schools

Then, Any one can be right or all can be wrong too! But, all cannot be Right, then it becomes contradictory and the Krishna's original message was not well taken!

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

not all wrong, may be we can say , all right in their own way .

elders say , good mother knows what to feed to her child at what stage. please reflect on the Marjana mantra of sandhya vandhanam ( ushatheeriva matharaha - oh lord please nourish me like a high class mother)

at first as infant we are fed only mother's milk , when one digestion system improves we are fed by semi-solid foods, then we are nourished by solid food.

likewise we are nourished by lord by dvaita,vishiadvaita and advaita accordingly.

so the single source of scripture can be interpreted by 3 different way according to aspirants maturity . This is another wonder by the LORD and his Kripa leela.

jai jai ram krishna hari, jai jai ram krishna hari..

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Like the blind men described the elephant!

 

[Govinda]

at first as infant we are fed only mother's milk , when one digestion system improves we are fed by semi-solid foods, then we are nourished by solid food.

likewise we are nourished by lord by dvaita,vishiadvaita and advaita accordingly.

Seems like you want to be gullibly and ridiculously secular.

How do you claim advaita is at the advanced stage of digestion?

For advaita, digestion is an illusion. the baby doesnt digest, only its consciousness digest, then how does the digestion of the baby
vary in from liquid to semi-solid to solid food? Shouldnt the digestion be same in all stages??

 

[Govinda]

Like the blind men described the elephant!

Iyya Sir,

The sruti and the smritis clearly described the Elephant , the One Brahman. The ego-blinded men want to perceive the elephant in their own mind-limited-perception.

Advaita magnified the elephant too-much and failed to see its parts (body-jivas/matter) and attributes-creative power, omniscient mind and blissful nature), and the gray color even blurted out, hence called that elephant formless. Where is the objective of release/mukti, only the consciousness exist, there is no agent-jiva to be heldresponsible! This is like binami fund ?, we deposit all consciousness (money) without an account, when the disguised owner ran away, we all break open the house and claimed the left-out furnitures!! Neither the account-holder(jiva), nor the Creator are responsible. Thus, creation is an illusion, creator is formless (disguised with no mind!), jiva/account dont exist! what happened to karma?

Dvaita saw the elephant, got overwhelmed and found the parts as too little and thought those parts couldn't match up to the Elephant itself. But was o.k. with the attributes of the Elephant (powerful, gigantic, unique, greyish , control its parts etc.)

Vishishtadvaita saw the Elephant with its attributes and parts. The object of release is with the parts (jivas), if they are willing, they could serve the elephant in its endeavour and be equally blissful!

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

GOVINDA JI!

To me Dvaita, Vishitadvaita, and Advaita all are perfectly digestable. If you couldn't digest advaita, please stick to vishtaadvaita.

No punyam in arguing.

 

[Govinda]

GOVINDA JI!

To me Dvaita, Vishitadvaita, and Advaita all are perfectly digestable. If you couldn't digest advaita, please stick to vishtaadvaita.

No punyam in arguing.

HRHK,

If all are digestible, then why are you not following ALL three? why should you follow only one??

Are you indirectly aware that they are contradicting, you cannot follow all together???

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

Govinda Ji,

i cant answer your assumptions. i can perfectly understand and follow altogether. i see no contradictions ... in advaita the other 2 merges.

ocean and wave are different - dvaita
wave is nothing but a part of ocean - vishitadvaita.
ocean and wave are nothing but water - advaita.

If everything is YOU and if you truly understood this where is the question of bankrupting, cheating, harming others? since there are no others only YOU everywhere?

ADVAITINS ONLY HAVE PREMA ,LOVE TO ALL .