Was Karna good or bad?

[JR]

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Namaste,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan in one of his upanyasa says Karna is one of the 'evil men' of the puranas. He gives a list of such evil men, including Duryodhana and Ravana, and Karna is one of them. He says that when Draupadi was brought to the sabha for disrobing and dushasana was pulling her robes, Karna sat there watching all this mercilessly.

However Karna is also praised for his charitability. He, afterall, inspite of being warned by Surya deva, gives off his own Kavacha and Kundala to Lord Indra, knowing it will bring him great danger to life. He appears to be thus selfless in giving away part of himself in charity. In common words, we call people hailing from 'Karna Parampara' if they are extremely charitable.

Hence I am confused as to who Karna really is... Good or bad? (Part of my confusion stems from the fact that I haven't read the Mahabharata).

Thanks.

 

[renuka]

JR, Great topic..Karna is my all time favorite.
Everyone watched Draupadi suffer not only Karna.

After all what were her 5 husbands doing?
So why should Karna alone get the bad name isnt it?

I simply love Karna for his ideals and knowing very well doom is ahead for him he still never gave up on Duryodhana.

He was faithful and blood was not thicker than water for him at the same time there is a dark side to him..he is the ultimate anti hero that will make any heart race.

A man who has a mind of his own..not afraid even to be wrong and evil..at the same time he is goodness personified.

He is the perfect male..he had every side to his character..the Good the Bad and the Ugly.

Deep down inside I feel if Draupadi had married him she would not have suffered as much as marrying the 5 Mama boys the Pandu Putras.

Many a times in Mahabharat Krishna was always trying to tell Arjuna that no one comes close to Karna in terms of being magnanimous..Krishna proved to Arjuna that no one had a heart of gold like Karna.

 

[JR]

Renuka,

In all due respect, I object to calling the pandavas derogatory terms. This is because I have heard upanyas of Velukkudi Krishnan Swami about the particular episode where Pandavas have visited Duryodana in his capital, when Duryodana and Shakuna play with their words in humiliating the Pandavas to the utmost in refusing to play a game of dice with them. The words they use against the pandavas -- and the agony of the pandavas -- is indescribable. So unlike the popular belief that owing to Dharmaputra's liking of game of dice, he joyfully accepted to playing it, on the contrary, despite of his hatred to play the game with Duryodhana in this instance, he is MADE to play it -- by the amount of verbal assaults, mockery and taunts from Duryodhana and his men. Since Swamiji (Velukkudi Krishnan) is well-versed having read original Mahabharata, he is able to narrate the agony of the pandavas fully. So eventually when Pandavas agree, Duryodhana asks that Draupadi be dragged along for disrobing, something that pandavas did not expect. They say, "Vidhi Valiyadhu", so ill-fate and destiny are in play here, against Pandavas.

Also, if Karna is so kind-hearted, he could have atleast uttered a 'word' against Duryodhana, seeing the enslaved status of the Pandavas - however he doesn't. Which brings to us the question, why was he so cruel-hearted?

 

[renuka]

Dear JR,

fair enough but from what I read about Swamijis and Pandits..no one dare question what they have been taught.

No one dare think of Mahabharat tru the lenses of the Kauravas.

I always believe in both sides of a story..to me I take no sides both Pandavas and Kauravas had faults and plus points.

I always wondered if it was Kunti that faced dishonour would the Pandavas have kept quiet?

Mama's boys are no actually a derogatory..its describes many men of the Indian DNA spread all over the world.

Anyway keep it coming..I like the threads you start.

Tell me..when did the Pandavas respect Karna..non stop calling him Suta Putra and Arjuna refused to compete with him becos of that..that was why Duryhodhana made Karna King of Anga.

Karna is not cruel hearted..he was totally unwanted from the beginning.

After all even Kunti never loved him ..she went to see him becos she feared the life of Arjuna..not that she really cared for Karna.

So I feel every character in Mahabharat has its good and bad side.

No one was perfect but I somehow have a soft corner for Karna.

That way even Bhisma can be said to be cruel hearted..why didnt he stop Draupadi from being disrobed?

 

[JR]

Yes, pandavas could have had their flaws - hence karmically ordained to undergo 'vanvas', 'agnaatha vaas', 'draupadi vastrabaharanam' and so forth... but the point is that, we do not count the blemishes of those who are inherently good just as we would not count the goodness within the inherently evil. ISIS extremists may be good to one another amongst themselves, may practice 'true brotherhood' amongst themselves, but they are EVIL and their goodness does not count.

 

[renuka]

Yes, pandavas could have had their flaws - hence karmically ordained to undergo 'vanvas', 'agnaatha vaas', 'draupadi vastrabaharanam' and so forth... but the point is that, we do not count the blemishes of those who are inherently good just as we would not count the goodness within the inherently evil. ISIS extremists may be good to one another amongst themselves, may practice 'true brotherhood' amongst themselves, but they are EVIL and their goodness does not count.

JR,

I have stopped diving people into good and bad..its just not possible.

I would always like to hear both sides and make my judgement.

Today we feel ISIS is evil but evil need not be in the form of killing alone.

Our own Hindu culture has promoted the evil of discrimination that had led to the death of many Dalits in the past and now.

So ISIS is instant poison..Discrimination is Slow Poison..the end product both kill.

 

[sangom]

Namaste,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan in one of his upanyasa says Karna is one of the 'evil men' of the puranas. He gives a list of such evil men, including Duryodhana and Ravana, and Karna is one of them. He says that when Draupadi was brought to the sabha for disrobing and dushasana was pulling her robes, Karna sat there watching all this mercilessly.

However Karna is also praised for his charitability. He, afterall, inspite of being warned by Surya deva, gives off his own Kavacha and Kundala to Lord Indra, knowing it will bring him great danger to life. He appears to be thus selfless in giving away part of himself in charity. In common words, we call people hailing from 'Karna Parampara' if they are extremely charitable.

Hence I am confused as to who Karna really is... Good or bad? (Part of my confusion stems from the fact that I haven't read the Mahabharata).

Thanks.

You say (in post #3) that "I object to calling the pandavas derogatory terms. This is because I have heard upanyas of Velukkudi Krishnan Swami about the particular episode where Pandavas have visited Duryodana in his capital, when Duryodana and Shakuna play with their words in humiliating the Pandavas to the utmost in refusing to play a game of dice with them. The words they use against the pandavas -- and the agony of the pandavas -- is indescribable. So unlike the popular belief that owing to Dharmaputra's liking of game of dice, he joyfully accepted to playing it, on the contrary, despite of his hatred to play the game with Duryodhana in this instance, he is MADE to play it -- by the amount of verbal assaults, mockery and taunts from Duryodhana and his men. Since Swamiji (Velukkudi Krishnan) is well-versed having read original Mahabharata, he is able to narrate the agony of the pandavas fully. So eventually when Pandavas agree, Duryodhana asks that Draupadi be dragged along for disrobing, something that pandavas did not expect."

Velukkudi makes a fabulous living (much better than what he could do as a practising CA) by donning all the 'marks' of an Iyengar very prominently and dishing out all such stories, as the one you referred to, to people who just want to hear such stories only, because it buttresses the brainwashing they have already undergone. So, I don't think there should be any difficulty for you in completely believing that Karna was the very epitome of all evil in the universe, because....., Velukkudi said so. Then why this OP?

My own guess is that your living in the US for some time, your exposure to the free thinking in that country, etc., have started kindling your rationality. And rational thinking is the biggest enemy of religion. Hence it is better to lead a cocooned life and believe completely whatever Velukkudi says and keep all rational thinking kilometers away!

BTB, the strong rumours going around here are that Velukkudi had to spend almost all his (ill-gotten?) wealth for reclaiming his son from the clutches of Jihadists and remaking him into an Iyengar. So, all the moneys he earned by taking people to Mahabharata tour and what not, have ultimately gone to the extremists. May be even Krishna is nowadays siding with the extremists, because He is fed up by the hypocrisies of people like Velukkudi!

 

[P.J.]

Was Karna Good or Bad

The OP is not about how Velukkudi made a fabulous living , it is about Karna , whether he is good or bad.

My Answer is a bit long, please read it with patience.

(leaving his past life : Nara Narayan and Karna http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/share-your-knowledge-news-updates/16926-my-collections-46.html);


Life wasn't fair to Karna .No one puts it better than the great Tamil poet, Kannadasan. "Thaaikku nee magan illai, thambikku annan illai. Further down, Krishna himself says manniththu arulvaayada"!


“Mother’s son you're not and neither your kin's brother (literally you are not your younger brother's older brother)
...you will forgive and be immortal.”

Karna was part of tragic as well as manipulative lifetimes either due to ignorance or powers that be or circumstances!

Disowned by his own mother
Insulted by his own brothers
Respected by so called villains
Wronged by the Lord Himself
A good-natured man sees such fate
When the Lord himself chose not to protect him
who will believe in Goodness?
When goodness itself is being ignored.
By the very Incarnation of Lord
Who tried to spread goodness in this world.
Karna was indeed the most noble of them all.
Such was the ocean of goodness within him
that he gifted it away to the world before he died.
A symbol of perfection
that beats the very Lord Krishna Himself.

Even a ‘poetic justice’ is denied to him for a reason of his birth. Look at his death itself. Arjuna killed him up on the advice of Krishna when his chariot wheel gets trapped in a gutter! An ultimate tragedy of life! A virtuous person from whom his protective armour gets snatched away by fraudulence of Indra (king of Devas and the biological father of Arjuna) first and then by own biological mother!


Karna discarded by his mother, family, ended up getting used up or cheated by Gods even at the time of his death, he was a trusted friend, supported his friends even in war, skilled he was, but why did the good lord Sri. Krishna chooses to kill him like that, because he knew how skilled karna was and what destruction he could bring.

Karna is a complex and interesting person, known to be a very noble, courageous and kind person in the Mahabharata, and everyone including Sri. Krishna Himself, except Dhuryodhana, the so-called most evil person in the story, wronged him. Karna was a great human being and the one and only known threat to Arjuna when it came to archery or when it came to winning the hand of Draupadi.
Draupati also insulted him in Swayamwara questioning his birth, but seeing his Kundalam, she should have understood about his birth. This insult made Karna never to forget Druapati's arrogance.

It is said that Karna told a lie to his guru Parasuma, to learn the knowledge of Yudha; can I ask you one simple question? Seeing his Kavacham, and Kundalam, being a great Ghani do you not think Parasuma should have seen his real caste?

In the struggle for Hasthinapur throne, the Pandavas have been the worst sadists when it came to Karna, for they kept referring to his caste, as a charioteer’s son, and that he is not of noble blood. Are Yudhishtira and Arjuna the epitomes of Dharma, when their noble birth only fills them with contempt and fear towards Karna because he is just as good despite being born in a lower caste? (Of course they didn’t know he was their brother but putting down someone on the grounds of birth is just a clear indicator of what pride they had!) There was goodness in him and at no cost was it going to display itself towards the Pandavas. Through all these insults that Karna had to live through, Kunti maintains absolute silence.

Therefore how do we judge goodness? Do we say Karna was wrong because he joined the Kauravas because at that moment between Yudhistira (the epitome of goodness and Dharma) and Dhuryodhana (the most evil), it was Dhuryodhana who stretched out a friendly hand? Now is that not goodness, irrespective of Karna's background?

It is said that Karna often played the game of dice with Dhuryodhana's wife. It was one of those games where she found herself losing and decided to get up and go when Karna pulled her back to the game to finish it. It was at this moment that the pearl chain along her waist gave way and fell to the floor scattering all the pearls. Fatefully Dhuryodhana enters the room at this time and tells her to continue to play the game while he picks up the pearls; he also asks her whether he should string them. This move of Dhuryodhana shows clearly that not only did he trust his wife; he also had complete confidence in his friend, a friend he had made out of merit and not by birth or royalty. Karna at this point makes a decision that he would never leave Dhuryodhana's side no matter what happened.

It is said Karna on Dronacharya's advice shattered Abhimanyu's bow by firing arrows from behind him, and broke the Rule of War! What a misconception!!

It is in fact, only Pandavas broke the Rule of War supported by Sri. Krishna much earlier than this in more dubious way more than once:

1. When Arjuna cowardly used Shikandi in front of him, and sent a sting of his arrows against Pitama Beeshma when he was standing “nirayuda” is this not breaking the Rule of War?

2. When Pandavas could not face Drana’s mighty sea of arrows, Yudistrara made a ‘white lie ‘ on the advice of Sri .Krishna “aswathama hatham Kunjaraha “ ; Is this not breaking the Rule of War ?

3. Finally the Great Bheema hit Duruyodana on his thighs using his mace which is against all rules of Mace fighting.
Is this too not breaking the rule of Mice fighting?

Even Sri. Balarama could not digest this and protested, but as usual Sri. Krishna came to Pandava’s rescue and justified Bheema’s action.

We cannot single out Karna for his mistakes. Everyone made mistakes and everyone has behaved very "human" in the Mahabharata, and not God like

Every Gods have wronged him including Sri .Krishna who did not leave him even at the time of his death (by chasing him from his previous birth ) by taking all his puniyam !!!!

( There may be other reasons for taking all Karna's puniyam, but that is not OP 's idea)

Even in his previous birth Sri Krishna in the Form of Sri. Naryana tried to take away his Kavachas)


(This was my post in Yahoo answers)

 

[sangom]

Was Karna Good or Bad

The question is not about how Velukkudi made a fabulous living , it is about Karna , whether he is good or bad.

My Answer is a bit long, please read it with patience.

(leaving his past life : Nara Narayan and Karna http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/share-your-knowledge-news-updates/16926-my-collections-46.html);


Life wasn't fair to Karna .No one puts it better than the great Tamil poet, Kannadasan. "Thaaikku nee magan illai, thambikku annan illai. Further down, Krishna himself says manniththu arulvaayada"!


“Mother’s son you're not and neither your kin's brother (literally you are not your younger brother's older brother)
...you will forgive and be immortal.”

Karna was part of tragic as well as manipulative lifetimes either due to ignorance or powers that be or circumstances!

Disowned by his own mother
Insulted by his own brothers
Respected by so called villains
Wronged by the Lord Himself
A good-natured man sees such fate
When the Lord himself chose not to protect him
who will believe in Goodness?
When goodness itself is being ignored.
By the very Incarnation of Lord
Who tried to spread goodness in this world.
Karna was indeed the most noble of them all.
Such was the ocean of goodness within him
that he gifted it away to the world before he died.
A symbol of perfection
that beats the very Lord Krishna Himself.

Even a ‘poetic justice’ is denied to him for a reason of his birth. Look at his death itself. Arjuna killed him up on the advice of Krishna when his chariot wheel gets trapped in a gutter! An ultimate tragedy of life! A virtuous person from whom his protective armour gets snatched away by fraudulence of Indra (king of Devas and the biological father of Arjuna) first and then by own biological mother!


Karna discarded by his mother, family, ended up getting used up or cheated by Gods even at the time of his death, he was a trusted friend, supported his friends even in war, skilled he was, but why did the good lord Sri. Krishna chooses to kill him like that, because he knew how skilled karna was and what destruction he could bring.

Karna is a complex and interesting person, known to be a very noble, courageous and kind person in the Mahabharata, and everyone including Sri. Krishna Himself, except Dhuryodhana, the so-called most evil person in the story, wronged him. Karna was a great human being and the one and only known threat to Arjuna when it came to archery or when it came to winning the hand of Draupadi.
Draupati also insulted him in Swayamwara questioning his birth, but seeing his Kundalam, she should have understood about his birth. This insult made Karna never to forget Druapati's arrogance.

It is said that Karna told a lie to his guru Parasuma, to learn the knowledge of Yudha; can I ask you one simple question? Seeing his Kavacham, and Kundalam, being a great Ghani do you not think Parasuma should have seen his real caste?

In the struggle for Hasthinapur throne, the Pandavas have been the worst sadists when it came to Karna, for they kept referring to his caste, as a charioteer’s son, and that he is not of noble blood. Are Yudhishtira and Arjuna the epitomes of Dharma, when their noble birth only fills them with contempt and fear towards Karna because he is just as good despite being born in a lower caste? (Of course they didn’t know he was their brother but putting down someone on the grounds of birth is just a clear indicator of what pride they had!) There was goodness in him and at no cost was it going to display itself towards the Pandavas. Through all these insults that Karna had to live through, Kunti maintains absolute silence.

Therefore how do we judge goodness? Do we say Karna was wrong because he joined the Kauravas because at that moment between Yudhistira (the epitome of goodness and Dharma) and Dhuryodhana (the most evil), it was Dhuryodhana who stretched out a friendly hand? Now is that not goodness, irrespective of Karna's background?

It is said that Karna often played the game of dice with Dhuryodhana's wife. It was one of those games where she found herself losing and decided to get up and go when Karna pulled her back to the game to finish it. It was at this moment that the pearl chain along her waist gave way and fell to the floor scattering all the pearls. Fatefully Dhuryodhana enters the room at this time and tells her to continue to play the game while he picks up the pearls; he also asks her whether he should string them. This move of Dhuryodhana shows clearly that not only did he trust his wife; he also had complete confidence in his friend, a friend he had made out of merit and not by birth or royalty. Karna at this point makes a decision that he would never leave Dhuryodhana's side no matter what happened.

It is said Karna on Dronacharya's advice shattered Abhimanyu's bow by firing arrows from behind him, and broke the Rule of War! What a misconception!!

It is in fact, only Pandavas broke the Rule of War supported by Sri. Krishna much earlier than this in more dubious way more than once:

1. When Arjuna cowardly used Shikandi in front of him, and sent a sting of his arrows against Pitama Beeshma when he was standing “nirayuda” is this not breaking the Rule of War?

2. When Pandavas could not face Drana’s mighty sea of arrows, Yudistrara made a ‘white lie ‘ on the advice of Sri .Krishna “aswathama hatham Kunjaraha “ ; Is this not breaking the Rule of War ?

3. Finally the Great Bheema hit Duruyodana on his thighs using his mace which is against all rules of Mace fighting.
Is this too not breaking the rule of Mice fighting?

Even Sri. Balarama could not digest this and protested, but as usual Sri. Krishna came to Pandava’s rescue and justified Bheema’s action.

We cannot single out Karna for his mistakes. Everyone made mistakes and everyone has behaved very "human" in the Mahabharata, and not God like

Every Gods have wronged him including Sri .Krishna who did not leave him even at the time of his death (by chasing him from his previous birth ) by taking all his puniyam !!!!

Even in his previous birth Sri Krishna in the Form of Sri. Naryana tried to take away his Kavachas)


(This was my post in Yahoo answers)

So, ultimately, was Karna good or bad? ...and you have no answer; then why copy all this nonsense?

 

[renuka]

So, ultimately, was Karna good or bad?

Dear Sangom ji,

Why does Karna need to be good or bad?

Do we have to judge him?

Does existence judge anyone?

I think when we humans personalize any experience we tend to judge a situation or even anyone for the matter.

So I think the best part of Mahabharat is Karna..becos he remains a mystery like Nayagan Dialogue "Neenge Nallavara Kettavara?"

Karna will be a question in everyone's mind.

So the best is leave the question unanswered..he could be bad or good or even both or none.

None of us really know.

But whatever said and done..the enigma called Karna outshines even Arjuna.

 

[JR]

JR,

I have stopped diving people into good and bad..its just not possible.

I would always like to hear both sides and make my judgement.

Today we feel ISIS is evil but evil need not be in the form of killing alone.

Our own Hindu culture has promoted the evil of discrimination that had led to the death of many Dalits in the past and now.

So ISIS is instant poison..Discrimination is Slow Poison..the end product both kill.

There is really no 2 sides here... whether karna is good or bad comes out from the epic 'Mahabharata' which is a text open before us for anyone to read.

The true intent in reading scriptures is to acquire that 'Viveka' that gives us the power of 'right discrimination' between what that is 'good' and 'what that is evil'.

There is no Hinduism (and no Mahabharata) if one cannot argue and try to distinguish between good and evil because even the very basic theory of 'Maya' or 'Veil of ignorance' is based on understanding what is evil an trying to counter it with goodness.

Trying to judge characters based on ithihasas thus gives us the capacity to know what is right behavior and what is not.

 

[JR]

Dear PJ ji,

I will read your post and come back to you if I have questions.

I appreciate your effort and knowledge in providing a reply to my query.

Thanks & Regards,

 

[P.J.]

Smt JR Ji

Please read these two more reasons to consider whether Karna was good or bad

Once Krishna and Arjuna were walking towards a village. Arjuna was pestering Krishna, asking him why Karna should be considered a role model for all Danas (donations) and not himself. Krishna, wanting to teach him a lesson snapped his fingers. The mountains beside the path they were walking on turned into gold. Krishna said "Arjuna, distribute these two mountains of gold among the villagers, but you must donate every last bit of gold". Arjuna went into the village, and proclaimed he was going to donate gold to every villager, and asked them to gather near the mountain. The villagers sang his praises and Arjuna walked towards the mountain with a huffed up chest. For two days and two continuous nights Arjuna shovelled gold from the mountain and donated to each villager. The mountains did not diminish in their slightest.

Most villagers came back and stood in queue within minutes. After a while, Arjuna, started feeling exhausted, but not ready to let go of his ego just yet, told Krishna he couldn't go on any longer without rest. Krishna called Karna. "You must donate every last bit of this mountain, Karna" he told him. Karna called two villagers. "You see those two mountains?" Karna asked, "those two mountains of gold are yours to do with as you please" he said, and walked away.

Arjuna sat dumbfounded. Why hadn't this thought occurred to him? Krishna smiled mischievously and told him "Arjuna, subconsciously, you yourself were attracted to the gold, you regretfully gave it away to each villager, giving them what you thought was a generous amount. Thus the size of your donation to each villager depended only on your imagination. Karna holds no such reservations. Look at him walking away after giving away a fortune, he doesn't expect people to sing his praises, he doesn't even care if people talk good or bad about him behind his back. That is the sign of a man already on the path of enlightenment"


What are some lesser known/interesting stories in Mahabharata? - Quora


This incident took place on the seventeenth day of the war of Kurukshetra.

Arjuna had killed Karna's son, Vrishasena, in order to make Karna experience the pain that he himself had borne when Abhimanyu was brutally executed. But Karna refused to grieve his son's death and continued to fight Arjuna in order to keep his word and fulfill Duryodhana's destiny.

Finally when Karna and Arjuna came face to face, a serpent called Naga Ashwasena secretly entered Karna's quiver. This serpent was the one whose mother was relentlessly burnt when Arjuna had set Khandava-prastha ablaze. Ashwasena, being in his mother's womb at that time, was able to save himself from getting charred. Destined to avenge his mother's death by killing Arjuna, he transformed himself into an arrow and waited his turn. Karna unknowingly released Naga Ashwasena at Arjuna. Realizing that this was no ordinary arrow, Lord Krishna, Arjuna's charioteer, in his bid to save Arjuna's life, sunk the wheel of his chariot in the ground by pressing his feet against its floor. This made the Naga, who was speedily advancing like a thunderbolt, miss his target and hit Arjuna's crown instead, causing it to fall on the ground. Disheartened, Naga Ashwasena returned to Karna and asked him to fire him towards Arjuna once again, this time making a promise that he would definitely not miss his target. After hearing Ashwasena's words, this is what the mighty AngaRaj said to him:

"It is beneath my stature as a warrior to shoot the same arrow twice. Find some other way to avenge your family's death."

Saddened by Karna's words, Ashwasena tried to kill Arjuna on his own but failed miserably. Arjuna was able to finish him off in a single stroke.

Who knows what would have happened had Karna released Ashwasena for the second time. He even might have killed Arjuna or at least would have injured him. But he upheld his principles and did not use the presented opportunity. Such was the character of AngaRaj. He was the man of his words and the epitome of morality. He was the ultimate warrior.

What are some lesser known stories about Karna? - Quora

 

[sangom]

<edited as the original post to which this reply was posted has been removed - Praveen>

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom ji,

Why does Karna need to be good or bad?

Do we have to judge him?

Does existence judge anyone?

I think when we humans personalize any experience we tend to judge a situation or even anyone for the matter.

So I think the best part of Mahabharat is Karna..becos he remains a mystery like Nayagan Dialogue "Neenge Nallavara Kettavara?"

Karna will be a question in everyone's mind.

So the best is leave the question unanswered..he could be bad or good or even both or none.

None of us really know.

But whatever said and done..the enigma called Karna outshines even Arjuna.

Smt. Renuka,

In my view, no character in a novel like Mahabharata, can be completely good or bad, because these are all human creations and human creations usually have some shortcoming or another. To me Karna is one of the best characters in MB, and he is definitely much greater than the Pandavas.

That said, this thread originates because it raises whether Karna is a good or bad character; and the Original poster is not satisfied with Velukkudi banding Karna as a bad character, though she (the OP) is prepared to believe OP in his rating of the Pandavas. So, I think the "questioning mind" has, somehow arisen in this case. Hence my post. Hope you will now be able to see my pov.

 

[JR]

Dear PJ ji,

I have heard from Smt. Ilampirai Manimaaran's upanyasa in Vijay TV how hateful and jealous the 100 Kauravas were of Pandavas when they all grew up together as young children. And how many instances, did they try to get Pandavas killed, especially Bheema because he was the strongest. Being 100 of them against 5 doing all sorts of these activities must have sowed the young Pandavas in their minds deep-set regret and vengeance against the Kauravas that only got inflamed all the more when they were disrespected and robbed off in the worst manner by Duryodhana following the dice competition. Since Pandavas were also human (they were not lord himself) they reacted in human manner for all these assaults and manifested such a behavior in the war too!

That's all I'm able to think of Pandavas' role (in their share of misdeeds including in the war) as I do not wish to think that Sri Krishna, who was born with all the 16 kalas and was aware and behaved as Lord manifested in human form should, would side with evil and support them!

But regarding Karna I always had questions, because of what Sri Krishnan said vs. his known charity. But after reading your recount, I am leaning towards viewing Karna in a more positive light, I am only thinking that Lord did not support him because he (Karna) did choose to side with the evil and the Lord did not want evil to win.

Thanks for the clarification, it definitely helps me and my query.

Best regards,

 

[JR]

You say (in post #3) that "I object to calling the pandavas derogatory terms. This is because I have heard upanyas of Velukkudi Krishnan Swami about the particular episode where Pandavas have visited Duryodana in his capital, when Duryodana and Shakuna play with their words in humiliating the Pandavas to the utmost in refusing to play a game of dice with them. The words they use against the pandavas -- and the agony of the pandavas -- is indescribable. So unlike the popular belief that owing to Dharmaputra's liking of game of dice, he joyfully accepted to playing it, on the contrary, despite of his hatred to play the game with Duryodhana in this instance, he is MADE to play it -- by the amount of verbal assaults, mockery and taunts from Duryodhana and his men. Since Swamiji (Velukkudi Krishnan) is well-versed having read original Mahabharata, he is able to narrate the agony of the pandavas fully. So eventually when Pandavas agree, Duryodhana asks that Draupadi be dragged along for disrobing, something that pandavas did not expect."

Velukkudi makes a fabulous living (much better than what he could do as a practising CA) by donning all the 'marks' of an Iyengar very prominently and dishing out all such stories, as the one you referred to, to people who just want to hear such stories only, because it buttresses the brainwashing they have already undergone. So, I don't think there should be any difficulty for you in completely believing that Karna was the very epitome of all evil in the universe, because....., Velukkudi said so. Then why this OP?

My own guess is that your living in the US for some time, your exposure to the free thinking in that country, etc., have started kindling your rationality. And rational thinking is the biggest enemy of religion. Hence it is better to lead a cocooned life and believe completely whatever Velukkudi says and keep all rational thinking kilometers away!

BTB, the strong rumours going around here are that Velukkudi had to spend almost all his (ill-gotten?) wealth for reclaiming his son from the clutches of Jihadists and remaking him into an Iyengar. So, all the moneys he earned by taking people to Mahabharata tour and what not, have ultimately gone to the extremists. May be even Krishna is nowadays siding with the extremists, because He is fed up by the hypocrisies of people like Velukkudi!

Namaste Sir,

If I get it right, from your accusation above of Sri Velukkudi Krishnan, it seems the only 'mistake' of his is that 'his son' somehow seems to be connected with Muslims? How can that be Sri Velukkudi Krishnan's fault?

I have listened to a lot of lectures by the Swami and I salute to his very, very vast knowledge of scriptures which becomes apparent as soon as he opens his mouth - Sri Yoga Hayagriva's blessings has given him immense knowledge and a fantastic memory he is able to say everything as it is in the scriptures in a style similar to 'Manipravala'.

And, he has visited many foreign countries, but he is still so simple and humble, clad in plain white dhoti and lecturing to as small an audience as situation gives him opportunity to, only for the sake of doing kainkarya to Sriman Narayana! His devotion and humility are apparent!

I wish the swamiji more and more of success! I cannot think of any reason of you calling him a 'hypocrite'.

Thanks & Regards,

 

[P.J.]

Smt JR Ji

No one is born bad but later on, one is bound by certain debts which makes him to join with evil.



Please read this:

When Bheeshma Pita was lying on the Death bed, Lord Krishna took all the five Pandavas and Draupadi, and then they went to Bhismapitama

His whole body was pierced with arrows. They went there - the Pandavas and Draupadi did pranama to Pitamaha Bhisma, and they sat at his feet. And when Krishna came there, Pitama Bhisma did pranama from his eyes, because his hands and everything were pierced by arrows. So by the eyes and he prayed Krishna to sit in front of him - very near. So Krishna was sitting very near, like this, and Pandavas sat near his feet. Krishna told, "O, Pitamaha Bhisma you are such a high class of devotee, and you know all the Vaisnava tattva. So you should try to pacify them. They are very worried for that they have killed so many - all. So they are very worried."

Bhisma Pitamaha began to tell something and then when he began, Draupadi was smiling. How smiling? [hiding behind veil] There was veil here, and she was smiling. Not "Ho ho, ho.", but she was smiling. Bhisma looked at her and questioned her, "My dear daughter Draupadi, why you are laughing? I want to know." And Draupadi, in a very humble way, said, "Oh Bhisma you are going to give knowledge, but where were you when Duryodhana was trying to make me naked? You are giving such high class of knowledge but where were you then?" Bhisma very humbly told, "My dear daughter, at that time I was taking my meals from Duryodhana, the demon, so in those meals the mood of demon was there. So I was knowing all these things. But I was so weak. So, at that time I could not check him. I could not control. I thought that Duryodhana would be unhappy and that is why, by weakness, I could not. But now it has been six months. My all blood, which was made by his meals has totally gone. Not only blood, the other bodily substances - everything - has gone. And now my heart is cured, especially by the darsana of Krishna."


That is why Saints and Yogis avoid taking food from anyone.



Teachings Of Grandfather Bhisma


I will come back with more on Pandavas and Kauravas

 

[P.J.]

."

Velukkudi makes a fabulous living (much better than what he could do as a practising CA) by donning all the 'marks' of an Iyengar very prominently and dishing out all such stories, as the one you referred to, to people who just want to hear such stories only, because it buttresses the brainwashing they have already undergone.

BTB, the strong rumours going around here are that Velukkudi had to spend almost all his (ill-gotten?) wealth for reclaiming his son from the clutches of Jihadists and remaking him into an Iyengar. So, all the moneys he earned by taking people to Mahabharata tour and what not, have ultimately gone to the extremists. May be even Krishna is nowadays siding with the extremists, because He is fed up by the hypocrisies of people like Velukkudi!

Again this shows how your mind is attracted to Gossips and hearsay ,none of it you can ever prove in any Forum;

<edited and removed personal attacks - praveen>

 

[biswa]

JRji,

Do you really believe all these epics literally? It is said that history is written for the benefit of the victors. So it is with Ramayana and Mahabharata as it is with the Iliad and Odyssey. You can't expect Homer, a Greek, to write an epic glorifying the Trojans.

No one really knows what happened in real life. It is just one writer's point of view, where the Pandavas are shown without fault and the Kauravas are the big villains. If the Kauravas had won the battle, we would have gotten a different epic!

 

[JR]

JRji,

Do you really believe all these epics literally? It is said that history is written for the benefit of the victors. So it is with Ramayana and Mahabharata as it is with the Iliad and Odyssey. You can't expect Homer, a Greek, to write an epic glorifying the Trojans.

No one really knows what happened in real life. It is just one writer's point of view, where the Pandavas are shown without fault and the Kauravas are the big villains. If the Kauravas had won the battle, we would have gotten a different epic!

Dear Biswa ji,

I don't know about the majority Hindus, including Vaishnavas. But I am a staunch believer of Ramayana and Mahabharata to have happened. They give us two wonderful devatas - Sri Rama and Sri Krishna, two eternal avataras of Sriman Narayana. Without these ithihasas being true, even Rama (my ishta devata) and Krishna become false.

It is just that I believe the ithihasas happening in Treta yuga and Dwapara yuga, people were different then - as our yuga dharma proclaims, and thus Sri Rama and his brothers as well as the pandavas and Sri Krishna turned out to be pure and good people.

 

[P.J.]

Smt JR Ji

I believe , Whether these ithihasas have really happened or not is altogether not the point of OP, based on these Ithihahasas, whether some characters appearing in them ,are good or bad is the point of discussion.

 

[JR]

Smt JR Ji

I believe , Whether these ithihasas have really happened or not is altogether not the point of OP, based on these Ithihahasas, whether some characters appearing in them ,are good or bad is the point of discussion.

You are right, PJ ji. I was just answering Biswa ji's question which made talk about the ithihasas being real or not... sorry for wandering away from the discussion. You have been giving me wonderful insights into the MB so far! Waiting for more... op2:

 

[P.J.]

Smt JR Ji

I will come back on Dice game, how Yudhitra was addicted to it, and Karna did not appreciate Sakuni's plan and for direct confrontation to defeat Pandavas.

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renuka,

In my view, no character in a novel like Mahabharata, can be completely good or bad, because these are all human creations and human creations usually have some shortcoming or another. To me Karna is one of the best characters in MB, and he is definitely much greater than the Pandavas.

That said, this thread originates because it raises whether Karna is a good or bad character; and the Original poster is not satisfied with Velukkudi banding Karna as a bad character, though she (the OP) is prepared to believe OP in his rating of the Pandavas. So, I think the "questioning mind" has, somehow arisen in this case. Hence my post. Hope you will now be able to see my pov.

Fair enough Sangom ji...I myself sometimes cant digest stories where one party is shown as "Onnum Teriyatha Papa".

I remember once when I was teaching the Ramayan to my son aged 9 then..I was reading to him about King Dasharatha and his virtues.

Then the next line was about King Dasharatha who was hunting and accidentally killed a man who was taking water at the river thinking it was an elephant drinking water.

Right away my son asked me "I thought Dasharatha was a good person ..why was he hunting and killing animals?"

So you see it was a very valid question..and my son was not convinced that Dasharatha was a good person!LOL

So I guess being good or bad is open to interpretation..but I agree with you that Karna was one of the best character in MB. It does not matter if he was good or bad..he was simply Karna.