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Vegetarianism and living

Kaundinya seems to have a special interest in me personally! thanks.
It is good to see that none are advocating meat eating. I agree on satvic guna but as posted earlier I think what is need to survive and excel in the world bent on material pursuits is to have Rajo guna or Rajisic. Which gives the impetus for action or the icha sakthi and this necessarily need not come from eating meat as many vegetable provide the necessary ingredients for it. Sathvic persons are more to be bent on religious duties and divine consiousness so its really improbable that their interest is bent to becoming Entreprenurs or Army men. I dont see any correlation with timidity and satva guna. Timdity is a negative concept exhibiting lack of confidence and fearful state whereas being Satvic is positive and has the highest mental courage, they dont fight back for reasons to hurt the other person and not because they are afraid. There is a clear difference between the two.



From Previous thread
KAUNDINYA said:
As far as I am concerned, I am NOT AN ADVOCATE OF MEAT-EATING. In fact I myself am a strict vgetarian. I only said that it is generations of vegetarianism combined with lack of physical labour/exercise that is responsible for the timidity of south Indian brahmins. This timidity can also be called SATTVA GUNA. In fact a brahmin must be "sattva guna-sampanna".Even the Bible says that timid people will inherit the earth. But mere sattva guna without spirituality is of no use. Brahmins should revive at least elementary practices like sandhya vandanam & gayatri-japa. Otherwise we will be brahmins in name only.
Mr.Ashgene jumps to conclusions. A person who says that timidity is the result of vegetarianism DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY BECOME AN ADVOCATE OF MEAT-EATING. Moreover I have not so far come across a vegetarian Sikh.The only known exception perhaps is Ms.Maneka Gandhi. I know that Baba Amte is a Maharashtrian but I don't know whether he is a brahmin or not. But most Maharashtrian brahmins (like Chitpavan Brahmins, Saraswat Brahmins & Gowda Saraswat Brahmins) are non-vegetarians.
Not only brahmins but non-brahmin communities like Vellala Mudaliars of North T.N., Tirunelveli Saiva Vellala Pillais, Kanakkars(Karuneegars) of T.N., Marwari & Gujarati Jains who are vegetarians are more timid than non.veg. non-brahmins. Aggressiveness often lands a community in trouble, the classic example being the Muslims. The aggressiveness of Muslims is due to their heavy consumption of meat.
There is another theory that the more evolved ones among the non-brahmins are born as brahmins in their next birth. So sattvic people among non-brahmins are born as brahmins. Naturally Brahmins are sattvic or timid!!!
 
everyone in my family are strict vegetarians.

but i am not for not because i dont want to. but because of circumstances.

i used to work for 12-14 hrs in a foreign country and the place i worked in did not have a lot of vegetarian food options available

only thing which was available were chicken and other similar foods.

in order to survive i started eating them.. but that doesnt mean i will not be a vegetarian again.

its been 4 months now since i came back to madras and i have been a vegetarian all these time.

it depends on one's circumstances.
 
Even Avaiyaar said Kalavum katru mara. So We can learn new things and follow which are good ones. Ofcourse Vegeterianism is very much good for human. As per medical terms our digestive system is entirely build to handle veg stuff and not meat of any kind.
 
What do you mean 'Lot of vegetarian food' not available??!! hehe :). Now a days vegan and veg foods are available even in the remotest part of China and Japan. As I understand, It was tough before i.e during 1980's but not any more. Anyway it is not a rule that Vegetarianism and Brahminism have to go hand in glow. But following some strict order like this which has proven health values would give us lots of advantage.
 
Also, a lot of it(being aggresive or timid) has to do with one's ancestry and Genes.

Unfortunately, Brahmins hardly were the frontliners in any battle we have had in the past. They were just advisers to people who held positions because of their intellect(which would have been direct result of chanting Vedas, meditation and an austere lifestyle).

The numerous conquests in the North by Mughals etc have made them predisposed to rise up against force and be aggressive to get by the day. You would see people from the North today be generally aggressive(relatively speaking) and not averse to taking risks. The brahmins had it all easy and never put their lives in the war front or involve in any dangerous activities. They had very less physical labor involved in their lives and happily exploited the "lesser privileged" masses of the times to get things done.
 
I agree with Ashgene that with the celebration of material pursuit in present days, one needs rajasic food to achieve certain things. I also agree that these could also come from vegetarian food.

i dont think the orignal point that kaundinya raised was to somehow find a way to be rajasic. The point was how Brahmins were pre-disposed to more sattvic food through their ancestry, and how others were pre-disposed to more rajasic(and also tamasic) foods. This directly(even by Ashgene's own understanding and logic) translates to how generaions of eating habits have made Brahmins timid and others more aggresive.
 
I'm a strict vegetarian.It's true that people get the qualities of what they consume, but that doesn't mean that eating meat is sin.People gotta eat what they get, it depends upon circumstances.People living by the sea shore would obviously devour fish as it is easily available to them.It is for the use of human that other living organisms were created. It is just an ecological tree, to create ecological balance.Just as carnivores feed on herbivores, we omnivores feed on both. If all the people turn pure vegetarians, it would definitely lead to chaos, as the population of those living beings would uncontrollably grow.Comparing humans with those beings is total refute coz humans give birth to one at a time, but that's not the same with hen...
 
Again to stress again 'Timidity' is not the right word to be used here as its a negative one. Brahmins are not timid but rather humble and peace loving.
I am happy that you all agreed.
 
Hello everyone,

This is a very interesting discussion.

I have a comment about the couple of points that Shuddi raised, i.e., that Brahmins, because they were not aggressors, they are not as well equipped to meet the world as others who might have had 'aggression' in their genes.

The second point was that they were 'merely' intellectuals, implying that they were effete and weak.

First of all I think we must recognize that we have had a very long history and that Brahmins have changed over its long course.

Brahmins were never aggressors because they never had to be. Why? Because they were self-realized masters. When one has the power of Atma-Gnana (spiritual strength) which guides Buddhi (intellect) there is no need for aggression. Case in point - when Vishwamitra (when he was still a King) tried to capture Nandhini from Vashishta's ashram, failed miserably. I mean, the King along with his entire army was no match for the spiritual strength of the sage. In fact it is this spiritual strength that attracted Vishwamitra so much that he gave up his kingdom to become a muni.

It was people like Vashishta who were advisors to kings like Dhasharata.

In other words, when one has spiritual strength one needs nothing else.

In the 20th century our grandparents witnessed what a towering personality of strength that Gandhi could be. A cursory acquaintance with his life will tell us that he had great spiritual strength. Our country won independence through our spiritual strength, not through aggression.

So Brahmins were not mere intellectuals who could be crushed like mosquitoes at the whim of anybody who chose to harm them. They were spiritual pillars. When intelligence emanates out of such spiritual souls, there is no need for nuclear weapons.

Brahmins lost their power because they lost their engagement with spirituality. They forgot who they were and what they were meant to do and did not respect the ways of living and code of conduct laid out for them. Karna was killed because he gave up his kavasam. Brahmins became vulnerable because they forgot their spirituality.

If anyone would care to try using some spiritual methods of uplifting oneself I can guarantee that that person will see positive, fulfilling results.

Thanks for sharing your views. I thought it important to respond to something like this because we labor under the false notion that we are weak. Nothing can be farther from the truth.
 
Very true!. Brahman means one who is in pursuit of knowledge. You dont need aggression in this case. on a spritual level this is great!. The other aspect of brahmins are not strong or not aggressive are false on a scientific level! one thing, whether you take meat or not, if you eat quality food, and do EXERCISE you will automatically become strong. For example, eating meat (protein) alone doesn't make you strong, but, doing an exercise only will do so. So brahmin can eat loads of oil, veggies, fruits and cereals including (paruppu or daal) that gives a lot of protein and carbs and all he has to do is exercise to get the strength. Nothing else gives your more strength!.

Chintana said:
Hello everyone,

This is a very interesting discussion.

I have a comment about the couple of points that Shuddi raised, i.e., that Brahmins, because they were not aggressors, they are not as well equipped to meet the world as others who might have had 'aggression' in their genes.

The second point was that they were 'merely' intellectuals, implying that they were effete and weak.

First of all I think we must recognize that we have had a very long history and that Brahmins have changed over its long course.

Brahmins were never aggressors because they never had to be. Why? Because they were self-realized masters. When one has the power of Atma-Gnana (spiritual strength) which guides Buddhi (intellect) there is no need for aggression. Case in point - when Vishwamitra (when he was still a King) tried to capture Nandhini from Vashishta's ashram, failed miserably. I mean, the King along with his entire army was no match for the spiritual strength of the sage. In fact it is this spiritual strength that attracted Vishwamitra so much that he gave up his kingdom to become a muni.

It was people like Vashishta who were advisors to kings like Dhasharata.

In other words, when one has spiritual strength one needs nothing else.

In the 20th century our grandparents witnessed what a towering personality of strength that Gandhi could be. A cursory acquaintance with his life will tell us that he had great spiritual strength. Our country won independence through our spiritual strength, not through aggression.

So Brahmins were not mere intellectuals who could be crushed like mosquitoes at the whim of anybody who chose to harm them. They were spiritual pillars. When intelligence emanates out of such spiritual souls, there is no need for nuclear weapons.

Brahmins lost their power because they lost their engagement with spirituality. They forgot who they were and what they were meant to do and did not respect the ways of living and code of conduct laid out for them. Karna was killed because he gave up his kavasam. Brahmins became vulnerable because they forgot their spirituality.

If anyone would care to try using some spiritual methods of uplifting oneself I can guarantee that that person will see positive, fulfilling results.

Thanks for sharing your views. I thought it important to respond to something like this because we labor under the false notion that we are weak. Nothing can be farther from the truth.
 
vegetarians born as brahmana!!!

What about cow, rabbit? hang on minute! what about dog in a vegetarian diet?

I know a rascal who is unfortunately my cousin (such an evil person) but he is a vegetarian, so he will be born again as a brahmana?

what about vegans? would they be born again highest among the highest.
ovolactovegetarian? will they born has a chabindi or kadai brahmana
Polovegetarian? Bengali Brahmins who includes seafoods in thier diet considered as Samudra Puspam
Pescovegetarian?

Hey! what about those who lives in Dessert, siberia, tundra, north pole, south pole or perhaps the Eskimo's. u r expecting them to consume vada, payasam, pongal, puliyodarai????

What were Lord Rama, Narasimha, Krishna and Matsya consuming?

If u non-vegetarian it is alright, if u r vegetarian it is better.

Kollaan Pullal maruthaaney.

In Sri Suktham...cow, goat, elephant.....were wished?
what is goat for? milk?

So all the present technologies were invented by Vegetarian brahmins?

Newton, Avogadro, Charles, Boyles, Bernoulli, Wright Brothers, Graham Bell....Bill gates......are they vegetarian brahmins.

rubbish!!utterly rubbish!! vegetarian's are blessed and intelligent... bunkum.!!..

non vegetarians.. violent..aggressive.., counting approximately 90% of the world populations.
 
Last edited:
Better to die as a vegetarian than to live as a non-vegetarian.

"வாடிய பயிரை கண்ட போதெல்லாம் வாடினேன்" என்றார் வள்ளலார்.அவர் பிறந்த மண்ணில் பிறந்த தமிழனல்லவா நீ?

மன்னுயிர் கொன்று தம்முயிர் பெருக்குவது அழகோ?

வயிற்றை பிறவுயிர்களின் ஊனை நிரப்பி சுடுகாடாக்குவது அழகோ?தருமமோ? நியாயமோ?

அப்படி இந்த நாவை சுவைக்கு அடிமையாக்கியிருக்கிறோமா?

என் சகோதரா,சிந்தித்து பார்.நீ பிறந்த மதம் சொல்லும் வாழ்வு நெறி என்னவென்பதை.வாழ்வு நெறி அனைத்தையும் விட்டாய். உயிர் கொலையை மறுத்தலையும் சேர்த்தா விட்டுவிட்டாய்?

கொல்லானை புலால் மறுத்தானை கைகூப்பி
எல்லா உயிரும் தொழும்
 
Vegetarianism abroad

Hello folks,
I am not a brahmin, but I do contribute once in a while in this forum. I must say, some of the postings here are very educating and I have learnt a thing or two about tamil brahmins.
I have a few observations to make on vegetarianism, and before that I would like to tell you that I was a meat eater all my life till about a year ago. I gave up all forms of meat and became a vegan, which is an extreme form of vegetarianism (A Vegan abhors all forms of animal or animal derived products - no meat, no eggs, no milk, not even honey as it is from bees ).
I saw several observations in this forum about vegatarian eating and associations made between satvic gunas and meat with rajasic gunas. I personally do not believe that meat influences human behavioural patterns to a large extent.
* Vegetarianism is peculiar in that it is mostly prevalent in India and was not popular in any other country ( including Buddhist countries ) . But if you look at many intellectuals from other countries, most of them are meat eaters , including Einstein. Jews , who have several intellectuals to their credit, eat meat.
* I do not know if Rajasic guna is needed to be a entrepreneur, I know several Gujarat and Marwadi families who are pure vegetarians but have built huge business empires.
* I do believe that for performance in sports, one needs protein in good quantities, but indian vegetarian food is not a great source of it. But if carefully chosen, veggie food can nourish the body as well as (if not better) meat based food. For example, take me, I am a marathon runner (I have run the full 42 km) surviving on a vegan diet. But one needs to eat a lot of soy and milk ( for non-vegans ) , dal/lentil etc. Only rice and sambar will not do.
* I do believe that some communites, like Brahmins (not all though ), through several centuries of selective in-breeding and conditioning have some traits dominant in them meant for intellectual pursuit (I am by no means suggesting that intellectuals do not exist in other communities!). This is perhaps partly genetic (to what extent I do not know !) and partly environmental conditioning by the their community and peers.

Personally I quit meat eating because of the pain that animals go through while being slaughtered, because the earth can support more vegetarians per acre of land than meat eaters, and partly because of the inhuman practices that animals farms follow in harvesting animals.

One should also note that modern livestock industry in the west, ( US ,Europe and Japan ) is a multi billion dollar industry and they do anything to maximise their profits. The most dangerous being using harmones to enhance meat production. Harmones are the control systems of any life form and they are similar in all life forms. So eating meat in large quantities exposes us to high levels of harmones, that might change our behaviour, arrival of early puberty etc. And I have not even talking about antibiotics.

Of course even veggie foods have issues in these modern times, with the use of fertilisers and pesticides.
However I think game meat ( meat from wild animals or from farms in villages not from factories) is healthy, but where do we get game meat nowadays?.

My point is that , the correlation between the type of food we eat and our behaviour may be much more complex and rajasic/satvic food classification might be a bit simplistic. We have much more scientific knowledge today on the constituents of the different foods we eat and how our body digests it. I think we should make use of this knowledge in deciding what is good for our body and mind than going to our scriptures.

Thanks for reading my post.

Good luck!.

- Krishnamoorthy
 
Vegetarianism

iam_not_a_tambrahm said:
Hello folks,
I But if you look at many intellectuals from other countries, most of them are meat eaters , including Einstein. Jews , who have several intellectuals to their credit, eat meat.

Actually, Einstein was a strict vegetarian, and an advocate for vegetariansim, in his later days, citing health benefits of such a diet, and cruelty to animals, as reasons for adopting vegetarianism. Other famous personalities were the renowned philosopher Immanuel Kant, Pythogoras, George Bernard Shaw, Plutarch, Henry David Thoreau, Charles Darwin, Leonardo Da vinci, writers Mark Twain, Leo Tolstoy, H.G Wells, Hans Christian Anderson (fairy tales), Louisa May Alcott (Little Women) Dr. John Harvey Kellog (inventor of cornflakes and well-known surgeon) etc. The list is countless, in addition to numerous celebrities in contemporary times, including the billionaire Donald Trump, who neither eats meat nor drinks alcohol, and has said that refraining from such habits had made him what he is - the wealthiest real-estate tycoon.

Please go to the web http://www.famousveggie.com/quotes.cfm and http://www.soystache.com/famousaz.htm for more names on famous vegetarian pesonalities, from the past and present. Apparently, the earliest western vegetarian movement (eg. Pythogoras) can be traced back to the ancient Indian philosophy (book source: Famous vegetarians and their Favourite Recipes, by Rynn Berry)

While the majority in the western world are adopting vegetarianism to stop cruelty to animals, the health benefits of vegetarian diet has also been recorded plenty - especially in reducing heart and colon diseases. Brahmins adopted vegetarianism in the ancient times not only for Ahimsa purposes, but also because they realized the health benefits of refraining from eating flesh that leads to accumulation of toxins in the body over a period of time.
 
tri_vikrama said:
What about cow, rabbit? hang on minute! what about dog in a vegetarian diet?

I know a rascal who is unfortunately my cousin (such an evil person) but he is a vegetarian, so he will be born again as a brahmana?

what about vegans? would they be born again highest among the highest.
ovolactovegetarian? will they born has a chabindi or kadai brahmana
Polovegetarian? Bengali Brahmins who includes seafoods in thier diet considered as Samudra Puspam
Pescovegetarian?

Hey! what about those who lives in Dessert, siberia, tundra, north pole, south pole or perhaps the Eskimo's. u r expecting them to consume vada, payasam, pongal, puliyodarai????

What were Lord Rama, Narasimha, Krishna and Matsya consuming?

If u non-vegetarian it is alright, if u r vegetarian it is better.

Kollaan Pullal maruthaaney.

In Sri Suktham...cow, goat, elephant.....were wished?
what is goat for? milk?

So all the present technologies were invented by Vegetarian brahmins?

Newton, Avogadro, Charles, Boyles, Bernoulli, Wright Brothers, Graham Bell....Bill gates......are they vegetarian brahmins.

rubbish!!utterly rubbish!! vegetarian's are blessed and intelligent... bunkum.!!..

non vegetarians.. violent..aggressive.., counting approximately 90% of the world populations.

I don't know whether you are meat eater or not, but you certainly sound fully intoxicated, with that senseless ranting!

Just because one is a vegetarian does not imply that the person automatically achieves a wonderful next life. There is one's Karma, determined by one's conduct. However, spiritual enlightenment and animal consumption are found to be incompatiable, especially where non-veg can be avoided and veg options are easily and readily available. That is, why even Dalai Lama has expressed his displeasure that his monks in Dharamsala, India, continue to eat meat, when vegetarian food is easily available in India.

You can't ask someone living in a hostile and harsh environment such as in the Sahara desert, Alaska, Siberia, or Tibet to eat only vegetarian food. No one, least of all any Hindu sages or holy men, have even remotely suggested that people living in these places should adopt a strictly vegetarian diet. It does seem absurd though for people who have options to be consuming animal flesh, and inflicting pain and cruelty to these creatures, and then claiming to be seeking enlightenment. This might explain why people like Richard Gere and George Harrison, or countless other celebrities, who pursue spiritualism, took up strict vegetarianism, because it no doubt difficult to develop a sense of compassion for living creatures when one is eating animal flesh.
 
Vegetarianism

Aditya,
I am sorry I am going to have to disagree with you on Einstein. Einstein was not a Veggie at all until his last years. Only when he was very sick did he adopt a veggie diet based on the advice of his doctors. It is a popular misconception that he was life long vegetarian. But the other names you mentioned might have been veggies. My point was that, even though there were veggie intellectuals/sportspersons in the western world, for every one veggie , literally there are thousands of meat eating intellectuals. I was trying to disprove the connection between meat eating and satvic qualities, just to be objective.
In any case, it is true that, many in the west are moving to a veggie diet. The benefits are many including ethical, moral, environmental and health related.
My reasons for abhoring meat and animal products is based on my own convictions and based on available scientific information on the harmful effects of meat based diet. I am not doing this because of ancient sages or because of our ancient scriptures. There are plenty of other insane things in the scriptures as well , which if followed literally, will make any body appear uncivilised.

- Krishnamoorthy
 
iam_not_a_tambrahm said:
Aditya,
I am sorry I am going to have to disagree with you on Einstein. Einstein was not a Veggie at all until his last years. Only when he was very sick did he adopt a veggie diet based on the advice of his doctors. It is a popular misconception that he was life long vegetarian...

...I am not doing this because of ancient sages or because of our ancient scriptures.

Please read my posting clearly. I said 'Einstein was a strict vegetarian, and an advocate for vegetariansim, in his later days, citing health benefits of such a diet." I never said he was a life-long vegetarian. By the way, like Einstein, does one have to become sick and wait until towards the end of life to realize that vegetarian diet is more healthier than non-veg?

You say you have adopted vegetarian life-style 'not because the sages or ancient scriptures said so...but because it has scientifically been proven to be more healthier and environmentally friendlier.' Scientifically proven by who? The western world? Ancient Indian sages have also been saying the same on the health benefits of vegetarian diet for centuries, long before the western scientific world picked up on it and 'proved' their views to be true (including the medicinal properties of turmeric, cumin, ginger, and red pepper).

Again, what you are implying is that the ancient sages of India - the same country which gave many scientific gems in the fields of mathematics, astronomy, medicine, surgery, yoga, and so many other fundamental scientific discoveries, which the west now have finally ackowledged and given credit to India (after centuries of pretending that it was all their own discoveries) - were talking nonesense, and were being 'unscientific,' whereas all the white men who took 2000 years to arrive at the same conclusion were all brilliant and scientific. Boy, what a Macaulay mind-set! Please understand (!) that all profound, original contributions, whether in mathematics, astronomy, medicine, etc., to the 'scientific' world are to be found in the ancient scriptures of India, which you seem to dismiss as totally baseless.

Just because white men have finally agreed with the ancient Indian ayurvedic diet - after centuries of scoffing at their idead and calling it vodoo nonesense - many Indians now are very willing and ready to adopt vegetarianism, ayurveda, yoga, pranayama, etc., without any question. What an irony!

So perhaps there is a lesson in it after all - the next time some good social message has to be brought to an Indian's notice, just get some white men in suits to do it - because that would go well with many modern Indians than similar advise given by someone in a saffron robe, or found in the ancient texts. Well, all I can say is, good luck in waiting for the next white man's 'scientific discovery' to come along before you make any positive changes to your life!
 
Vegetarianism an objective look

Dear Aditya,
I stand corrected on Einstein, I did not read your lines correctly. But your assumption that I have a "Macaulay mind-set " and that I have more regard for the white man than our scriptures is totally incorrect. That is not something you want to accuse me of. I quit a nice job in white man's land a few years ago ( USA ) just to come back to India . And I also have RSS leanings.

If you read my post carefully there is no reference to white man or the superiority of the west anywhere in my posting. I was only saying that there are millions of meat eating intellectuals in the west, just to make the point that the so called satvic qualities cannot be associated with veggie food alone.
When I say I believe in reason and science, you assumed that I was referring to western science and to white man. Any scientific study , regardless of where it comes from, will be accepted by me. Including India. I believe objectivism and scientific enquiry are independent of cultures and white man or indians, both can use reason for betterment of human life.
I am not a Hindu scripture basher, all I was saying is that let us not get carried away by our love of our religion and attribute all good things in life to scriptures. The reason is the scriptures contain a lot of good things ( like vegetarianism etc. ) and they also contain a lot of nonsense. The nonsense may have been necessary at some point in history , but probably not now in this modern age.
All scriptures , whether Hindu ,Moslem or Christian ,evolved a long time back and they reflect the conditions prevalent at that time. And taking them literally may not always be wise. Fortunately Hinduism is reforming. But some other religions like Islam are not. In fact a lot of Islamic terrorism can be directly traced to some Muslims taking Koran literally.
But we hindus do not want to do that.

Correct me if I am wrong or if you have reasons to disagree.

By the way I really like veggie food. Not the traditional food we have like rice, sambar. Healthy veggie food with a lot of whole wheat based chapathis, plenty of dhal, fresh vegetables, soybean, legumes is as nourishing to the body as meat based food. I am doing full marathon training on a vegan diet and plan to run a marathon in a few months, just for your information!.


- Krishnamoorthy
 
Meat-Eating Brahmins

This is for the information of those who have not been exposed to the culture of all of India. Vegetarianism is popular among 2 castes: Brahmins and Vaishyas - since their vocations do not involve too much physical exercise or aggression. Kshatrias and the other castes have to exert themselves more physically and therefore our shastras fo not objecy to their eating meat.

This does not mean that Brahmins foreswore meat completely. Historically, though Brahmins were advised to eschew meat since their vocation was saatvik, they were allowed to and often did eat meat especially after helping Kshatriyas do yagnas like Ashwamegh yagna when at the end of conquering all the lands the Aswa roamed through, the Kshatriya king would cermoniously kill the horse and the flesh would be consumed by all the participants of the yagna.

To this day only 50% of all Brahmins are vegetarian in India. These Brahmins are Vaishnavite Brahmins throughout India as well as most Brahmins in the South of India who came under the banner of the 3 Acharyas - Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhava who insisted that in order reclaim Hindus from Jainism and other faiths Hindus had staeyed to, Brahmins need to embrace their strict vegetarian habits thereby presenting a higher standard for others to emulate.

All Brahmins from Maharashtra (Except the Uccha Brahmins from Pune with names like Gokhale, Sahasrabuddhe, Agashe and Bhandarkar who are vegetarians), Konkan, Bihar (Maithili Brahmins with names like Mishra and Jha), Bengal (Mukherjee, Das Gupta, Banerjee etc.), Uttaranchal ( Names like Tiwari, Pande, Pant) and Kashmiri and Punjabi Brahmins (With names like Kak, Kaul, Sharma, Kher etc..) - all eat meat. Brahmins from the Jain influenced states like MP, Rajasthan and Gujerat are vegetarians. On the other hand a greater percentage of north Indian Vaishyas like Baniyas and Marwaris are vegetarians as are Komti Shetty's from Karnataka and Andhra anf Gujerat Vaishyas with names like Vora, Mafatlal.Shah etc. I am not sure about Chettiars who are TN's version of Shetty's.

Also Vaishnavite Brahmins from states like Bengal. Bihar, Orissa and UP are also vegetarians. Bengal Vaishnavites are followers of Chaitanya Mahaprahu whose descendents established the Hare Krishna movement.

So though we as Tamil Brahmins tend to associate vegetarianism with Brahminism, if you look at India as a whole, it is not true at all. Vegetarianism is probably universally a trait of Vaishnavas around the country and also Jains and a significant percentage of Vaishyas. Non Brahmins like Lingayats in Karnataka are vegetarians! Among Saivite Brahmins it prevails only in the South and in the North, Saivite Brahmins seem to be predominantly meat eating.

Again, meat eating does not automatically connote anything unpleasant other than they eat meat. Kashmiri Pandits are closer to Iyengars and Iyers in their daily habits and thinking than many in TN. One of my employees, a Kaul, lived with me for a few months. All the stotras he chanted in the morning were exactly the ones I learned in childhood. remember Kashmiri Pandits were all disciples of Shankaracharya and to this day there is a Shankaracharya temple atop a hill in Srinagar.

SV
 
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iam_not_a_tambrahm said:
,
When I say I believe in reason and science, you assumed that I was referring to western science and to white man. Any scientific study , regardless of where it comes from, will be accepted by me. Including India. I believe objectivism and scientific enquiry are independent of cultures and white man or indians, both can use reason for betterment of human life.

I am not a Hindu scripture basher, all I was saying is that let us not get carried away by our love of our religion and attribute all good things in life to scriptures. The reason is the scriptures contain a lot of good things ( like vegetarianism etc. ) and they also contain a lot of nonsense. The nonsense may have been necessary at some point in history , but probably not now in this modern age.

I never implied that you necessarily seek the white man's approval. But you seemed to imply, from my understanding of your posting, that many of the writings in the vedas are 'unscientific.' I was only trying to impress upon you that many recommendations in the vedas, for bettering our lives, whether it be in medicine, astronomy, hygiene, etc., were based on scientific observations - they weren't all conjured up from nowhere. To suggest that because they were done some 2-3 thousand years ago that they are not valid today would be incorrect.

The vedas contained a lot of sensible things, but other scriptures that evolved over period of time did contain a lot of social practices particular to the time period, and perhaps no longer relevant to today. No one says one has to blindly believe everything and anything in the vedas, but for goodness sake, lets not keep insisting that everything in the vedas are obsolete and irrelevant. One must keep an open mind in evaluating the ancient scriptures, and there's NOTHING wrong in being proud of the contributions of hinduism to the world - not simply in the matters of spirituality, but also in science, astronomy, architecture, mathematics, medicine, etc. After all, these contributions all came out of the good old vedas.

By the way I really like veggie food. Not the traditional food we have like rice, sambar. Healthy veggie food with a lot of whole wheat based chapathis, plenty of dhal, fresh vegetables, soybean, legumes is as nourishing to the body as meat based food.

Er...call me a pain in the tushy, but hope you weren't implying that rice and sambar (especially sambar) are not very healthy? Sambar also contains a type of dhal, cooked the south Indian way, so it is a rich source of protein, carbohydrate, minerals and vitamins. Hence, it can be a fantastic training food too, as long as one doesn't overdo the spices and oil - plus the red chilly and turmeric used in sambhar are found to have protective properties against cancer and various colon disorders, .

Well, good luck with the training for the marathon. Hope you knock em all down...I mean, cross the line before they all do!
 
Science and scriptures

aditya said:
I never implied that you necessarily seek the white man's approval. But you seemed to imply, from my understanding of your posting, that many of the writings in the vedas are 'unscientific.'

From one of your previous posting:
So perhaps there is a lesson in it after all - the next time some good social message has to be brought to an Indian's notice, just get some white men in suits to do it - because that would go well with many modern Indians than similar advise given by someone in a saffron robe, or found in the ancient texts. Well, all I can say is, good luck in waiting for the next white man's 'scientific discovery' to come along before you make any positive changes to your life!
Dear Aditya,
Yes, you were not only implying but firmly stating that I am waiting for "the next white man's scientific discovery" to make a positive change in my life, in one of your previous postings (see above). May be you forgot what you wrote.

Perhaps, I should not have used the word non-sense in describing some of the things in scriptures, it is too strong a word. All I was saying is that vedas and other scriptures contain a lot of relevant information as well as information which may not be relevant to modern times. I do not know if i can call it unscientific.

Let us take Atharva-Veda , it contains a lot of verses for charms, rites and prayers. There are specific charms, and rituals to rid the mind of disease and demons. For example there is a charm against Jaundice. Do you really suggest someone invoke this charm , instead of going to a doctor.

While praying is definitely good for the mind, tell me, if having a thousand rites and rituals for various ocassions makes a lot of sense in modern life?. Do you really thing a modern Indian Hindu should indulge in all that. Of course, those who want to they definitely can. But is it right to extort an average Hindu to do all this, because they come from vedas.

Take Yajur veda, there are a lot of sacrificial rituals mentioned there. Do u want to follow these for any reason nowadays?.

Take, Kamasutra, even I think this is pretty relevant at all times in the history of humanity!. It is just that, being single, i have not had a chance to practice the contents!:lol:

Other vedas, like the ayur veda contain innumerable cures for things like common cold , diabetes etc. I follow some of these at home. These make sense. And take Upanishads, most of them are pure philosphical gems, comparable to the best western philosophical ideas. And very abstract. I think these are timeless, anybody who understands them can read them and even follow them in day to day life. My only grouse has been that nobody has done a good translation into local languages so that the lay man can understand them. ( the existing translations are not that great )

I am not an anti -eda , hindu basher. Please do not get me wrong. But , by promoting scriptures in wholesale to everyone without being critical of components of the vedas, one runs the risk of diluting the good things the vedas contain. I think this self critical process is necessary for any religion to move along with times in a healthy way.

The only thing I want to gaurd people against is blind belief in everything that the scriptures say. This is not to question the scriptures, but rather picking the best in them to suit modern life.

About the statements on sambar, no you are not being a pain in the tushy!. I would not call eating sambar and rice as unhealthy at all, but eating only these two might be nutrinionally inadequate. Unhealthy is different from inadequate nutrition. True, dhal contains a lot of nutrients, but the quantity found in sambar is not much. I do not want to go into the details, but an average person needs around 50-70 grams (depending on lifestyle and age ) of high quality complete proteins ( as opposed to incomplete proteins ) daily. And also dhal is not a complete protein, and so some other proteins are needed to supplement it, like curd or even the small amount of protein found in rice of wheat. Soy is a legume that has complete proteins. It is a good option. I am not suggesting it because it is popular in Japan and West. I like it because it has nutrients that my body wants. No harm in adopting foods from abroad if they are good.
I have spent a lot of time looking into various foods as I have been trying different foods for practicing for marathon. I have a good idea of various constituents of the different types of foods. If you want more information on any food, please feel free to ask me.!
Yes the indian spices are good and have a lot of beneficial properties.

Your well wishes for completing the marathon are very much appreciated!. This is my second marathon, but I just plan to complete it , not really looking for a 1st or 2nd spot.
 
Excellent.

Silicon Valley-an said:
This is for the information of those who have not been exposed to the culture of all of India. Vegetarianism is popular among 2 castes: Brahmins and Vaishyas - since their vocations do not involve too much physical exercise or aggression. Kshatrias and the other castes have to exert themselves more physically and therefore our shastras fo not objecy to their eating meat.

This does not mean that Brahmins foreswore meat completely. Historically, though Brahmins were advised to eschew meat since their vocation was saatvik, they were allowed to and often did eat meat especially after helping Kshatriyas do yagnas like Ashwamegh yagna when at the end of conquering all the lands the Aswa roamed through, the Kshatriya king would cermoniously kill the horse and the flesh would be consumed by all the participants of the yagna.

To this day only 50% of all Brahmins are vegetarian in India. These Brahmins are Vaishnavite Brahmins throughout India as well as most Brahmins in the South of India who came under the banner of the 3 Acharyas - Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhava who insisted that in order reclaim Hindus from Jainism and other faiths Hindus had staeyed to, Brahmins need to embrace their strict vegetarian habits thereby presenting a higher standard for others to emulate.

All Brahmins from Maharashtra (Except the Uccha Brahmins from Pune with names like Gokhale, Sahasrabuddhe, Agashe and Bhandarkar who are vegetarians), Konkan, Bihar (Maithili Brahmins with names like Mishra and Jha), Bengal (Mukherjee, Das Gupta, Banerjee etc.), Uttaranchal ( Names like Tiwari, Pande, Pant) and Kashmiri and Punjabi Brahmins (With names like Kak, Kaul, Sharma, Kher etc..) - all eat meat. Brahmins from the Jain influenced states like MP, Rajasthan and Gujerat are vegetarians. On the other hand a greater percentage of north Indian Vaishyas like Baniyas and Marwaris are vegetarians as are Komti Shetty's from Karnataka and Andhra anf Gujerat Vaishyas with names like Vora, Mafatlal.Shah etc. I am not sure about Chettiars who are TN's version of Shetty's.

Also Vaishnavite Brahmins from states like Bengal. Bihar, Orissa and UP are also vegetarians. Bengal Vaishnavites are followers of Chaitanya Mahaprahu whose descendents established the Hare Krishna movement.

So though we as Tamil Brahmins tend to associate vegetarianism with Brahminism, if you look at India as a whole, it is not true at all. Vegetarianism is probably universally a trait of Vaishnavas around the country and also Jains and a significant percentage of Vaishyas. Non Brahmins like Lingayats in Karnataka are vegetarians! Among Saivite Brahmins it prevails only in the South and in the North, Saivite Brahmins seem to be predominantly meat eating.

Again, meat eating does not automatically connote anything unpleasant other than they eat meat. Kashmiri Pandits are closer to Iyengars and Iyers in their daily habits and thinking than many in TN. One of my employees, a Kaul, lived with me for a few months. All the stotras he chanted in the morning were exactly the ones I learned in childhood. remember Kashmiri Pandits were all disciples of Shankaracharya and to this day there is a Shankaracharya temple atop a hill in Srinagar.

SV

Hi SV,
An excellent write up. I was also told Konkanasta Rig vedi Brahmans ( marathis ) eat meat where as Deshastha Rig vedi Brahmans are vegetarians.
Saiva Pillais are veggies too and are highly ritualistic...once I had a saiva pillai visitor when I was abroad, he used to get up at 4:30 in the morning and do poojas to a shiva statue he always carries.
Actually...I did hear about the shankaracharya temple from lot of friends. Did he ascend the himalayas in Kashmir or somewhere else? Any idea?

With regards,
Kudumi.
 
Shankara

Hi Kudumi,

Sankara single handedly carried out the spiritual unification of India. He was first of the 3 Acharyas to do so. The Sankaracharya temple is in Srinagar proper and just atop a local hill. It is easily accessible and it is not a long journey into nowhere like Badrinath or Kedarnath. Sankara also established his 4 Mutts in 4 corners of India: Sarada Mutt at Sringeri, Govardhan Mutt at Jaggannath Puri, Jyothir Mutt at Badrinath and Kalika Mutt at Dwarka.

It is thanks to Sankara and Ramanuja that Iyers and Iyengars are the priests of choice in Siva and Vaishnavite temples all over India. Most Marwari temples (such as Fanasvadi in Mumbai ) have Iyengars as priests because Marwaris are Vaishnavites. The head priest at Thirupathi Balaji temple is always an Iyengar.

SV









kudumi said:
Hi SV,
An excellent write up. I was also told Konkanasta Rig vedi Brahmans ( marathis ) eat meat where as Deshastha Rig vedi Brahmans are vegetarians.
Saiva Pillais are veggies too and are highly ritualistic...once I had a saiva pillai visitor when I was abroad, he used to get up at 4:30 in the morning and do poojas to a shiva statue he always carries.
Actually...I did hear about the shankaracharya temple from lot of friends. Did he ascend the himalayas in Kashmir or somewhere else? Any idea?

With regards,
Kudumi.
 

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