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Vedic God Varuna in Oldest Tamil Book

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4a2f2-perun.jpg

Slavs in East European countries worshiped Varn as Perun

Oldest Tamil book Tolkappaiam dated to 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century BC mentions Varuna as one of the four Gods allocated four different land divisions of ancient Tamil country. This raised eye brows of many people because Varuna is not mentioned much in Tamil literature. Indra is mentioned from the oldest to the latest literature which I gave in my last post.


Agni, though not mentioned directly is mentioned in the Vedic rites of Brahmins in Tamil literature. 2000 year old Sangam Tamil literature praised the Brahmins as ‘’worshippers of three fires’’ (Muth Thee). And like I mentioned in my post on Indra, Agni is worshipped by Tamils in the form of Subramanya, who the Tamils called Murugan. The very Tamil word given to him in the oldest Tamil book is Seyon=Reddish. Agnijathar and Agni Bhu are few of Lord Murugan’s popular names. Agnijathar means Fire Born. Lord Skanda was born from the fire of Lord Shiva’s Third Eye.


Now let us look at Varuna. Varuna in the Vedas is a powerful god. He is the guardian of cosmic order (rta=rhythm=ruth=truth). Varuna is in charge of the oceans, water sources and rains. During times of drought Varuna Japa (Prayers to Varuna) is done. His vahana (vehicle) is shark fish or crocodile. Tamils believed his control over rains and worshipped him for rains. Oldest Tamil book Tolkappiam says he is the god of littoral areas/Neithal. Seaward people and fisher men worshipped him.
At lower level Varunan is in charge of the direction West where as Indra controls East. In Persian literature Varuna is the most powerful God. Mitra and Varuna are paired in Vedic hymns. This led to the belief of interpreting them as Day and Night, Sun and Moon, Light and Dark and Positive and Negative energy. Tamil saint Agastya is considered son of Varuna and Urvasi. This brings Varuna closer to Tamils. Agastya was the one who made a grammar for Tamil language.


We have a few references to Varuna in Tamil:
Barathavars are the people of the sea. They would not go to sea for fishing on full moon days. This coincides with the Vedic link of Varuna with the moon and Mitra with the sun. Barathavars may be related to Bharats of Rig Veda. But this requires further research. Varuna is associated with sea in Rig Veda (RV I-25) in many places.
varuna2.gif


Tamils used to plant the Shark bone in the sand on the sea shore and do Puja with flower garlands. They drink toddy extracted from palm and paddy. This happened on the full moon day. This confirms its Vedic origin: 1.Association with shark/sea monster2.Association of moon/full moon day 3.Association with sea 4. Association of the clan name bharats and 5.Confirmation of Varuna as Tamil God by Tolkappiam(Porul.1-5). He used the Sanskrit name Varuna.

The Sanskrit word for sea Vaaranam has its origin in Varunan.
Pattinappalai lines 86 to 93 gives us the above information.
Read my earlier post ‘’Indra in Oldest Tamil Literature’’.


Valluvar and Varuna

Tamil’s greatest contribution to the world of literature is a book called Tirukkural. Tirukkural means a book of sacred couplets. There are 1330 couplets divided in to three chapters Dharma/virtue, Artha/wealth and Kama/love (Aram, Porul, Inpam in Tamil). They deal with all aspects of human life. One who reads it today would be surprised at its freshness and relevance to our own problems today. It was written by Valluvar 1500 years ago. He also praised Varuna without naming him. He placed the chapter on RAIN as the second one, next to GOD/Prayer.


Valluvar says in couplet 18:
‘’If rains fail, festivals of the year and the daily worship of the gods will cease’’.

I interpret it as the Sea festival to honour Indra and Varuna. The worship he mentions is the worship of Varuna. It is to be noted that he used the Sanskrit word Puja ( Pusanai in Tamil) in this couplet and in the very next couplet he jumps to the Bhagawad Gita phrase Dhana and Tapas (Dhanam, Thavam in Tamil). He boldly used the Sanskrit words to start his couplet, which was not practised during Sangam period.


Couplet 19:
‘’Charity and devotional practices will not be observed in the world unless rain falls.’’

I have given umpteen examples in my previous 570 + posts that the Aryan Dravidian Race theory is a fraudulent one that was imposed by vested interests. This Varuna worship in the southern most part of India also debunks the race theory.
1e36a-varuna.gif


[email protected]; Pictures are taken from various sites. Those who use my articles are requested to give full credit to the blog or the author London Swaminathan.
Thanks.

Read my earlier articles:
Indra in the Oldest Tamil Book
Date of Tolkappiam
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
In what way does your post help any Tamil Brahmins, Hindus, Indians, humanity for that matter.
Just because you have some knowledge why do you think it is relevant today.
I hate to see you wasting your's and other's time.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Agastya was the one who made a grammar for Tamil language.

Dear Sir,

This is the best part of your post..you know why?

Just like how Panini is to Sanskrit.. that is how Agastya is to Tamil.

I know enough nut cases out here where I stay who believe in the Aryan Dravidian divide and view Sanskrit as Aryan and Tamil as Dravidian.

How come they don't realize the fact that the person who compiled Tamil Grammar was a Brahmin!LOL

So much for all this believe for Aryan Dravidian divide!ha ha ha
 

auh

New member
In what way does your post help any Tamil Brahmins, Hindus, Indians, humanity for that matter.
Just because you have some knowledge why do you think it is relevant today.
I hate to see you wasting your's and other's time.

Dear Prasad
Thanks for reading it quickly and posting comments.
There are hundreds more to come.​


I could not help laughing at the above two comments - it is too funny a reply (situation) as LS has not realized what the poster had said.

Apologies if my post hurts anyone.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
[/INDENT]
I could not help laughing at the above two comments - it is too funny a reply (situation) as LS has not realized what the poster had said.

Apologies if my post hurts anyone.
On the contrary Mr. LS knows vert well. This is not the first time either. He is persistant, and sometimes we indulge.
 

palindrome

Active member
Just like how Panini is to Sanskrit.. that is how Agastya is to Tamil.

I know enough nut cases out here where I stay who believe in the Aryan Dravidian divide and view Sanskrit as Aryan and Tamil as Dravidian.

How come they don't realize the fact that the person who compiled Tamil Grammar was a Brahmin!LOL

So much for all this believe for Aryan Dravidian divide!ha ha ha
Dear Renu,

There were nutcases in history also. Afterall, those who won got to write their account as history. There are some such cases currently who seek to conflate anthanar to brahmin. Culture has been very varied and varigated indeed. The terms Aryan and Dravidian wud best fit culture associated with two different lingusitic groups. Nothing more. They may have had a common origin, we do not know for sure yet from lingusitics / historical evidence.

The term Brahmin is a very generic one. Even according to smriti literature each period or yuga had a different set of people called brahmins (for example, Manu recognized only a particular set as brahmins). As for yuga dating this particular blog is very useful -- The end of the Kali Yuga is 2025 CE (ofcourse we know all smritis were written in kaliyuga, with manusmriti as recent as 200 BC to 200 AD).

Legend attributes to Agastya the bringing of cauvery to south. Surely, such legends are mythical. One man could not have brought a river to southindia.

Similarly one man could not have created the entire grammer for a language. It is possible to compile something only when it had existed previously.

Current research on Agastya comes from inscriptional evidence and Agastya sutras. There is also a view that Agastya learned Tamil from Avalokita (this is from buddhist texts); and that Tholkappiyar was a Jain (a jaina ascetic with the epithet patimaiyon). In this regard, one may find the Handbook of Oriental Studies, Part 2 by Bertold Spuler interesting (very worthwhile reading).

If legend alone, without historical proof is to be believed, then Agastya was the son of two Asuras, Mitra and Varuna from a devadasi Urvashi. His brother Vashista was once a respected sage. However, Manusmriti designated Sukalins as manes of Shudras and the issues of Vasishtha. The downfall of the clan of Vashistas, is an interesting story, as also the downfall of Vashista's father, the great asura Varuna. It could be interesting why at all Agastya moved down south. Due to the asura Varuna connection, perhaps the Elamo-dravidian hypothesis may have some substance to it, though it is too early to say anything now.

Just my thots.

Thank you.
 
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The main motivation behind historical research about tamils and tamil kingdom, when it was overwhelmingly dominated by dravidianists, was to blame brahmins for the caste/varna system. That is why the dravidianists clamied (and many still claim) that the four-fold class division found in tolkappiyam did not actually exist in Tamil kingdom. There are dravidianists who claim the entire "marabiyal" section was an interpolation. However, Tolkappiyam is not the only literature to mention this division and when references to its adherents are found in other sangam literature too, it had become difficult to accept tolkappiyar as brahmin because that would amount to accepting brahmin contribution to tamil.

Motivated research by dravidianists stem from their hatred towards brahmins and the idea of channeling their hatred to achieve political power.

All these are moot point now because brahmins do not depend on dravidianists or even the dravidian land for their survival.
 
In what way does your post help any Tamil Brahmins, Hindus, Indians, humanity for that matter.
Just because you have some knowledge why do you think it is relevant today.
I hate to see you wasting your's and other's time.
Dear Prasad,
LS' research presents a contrarian angle to the dravidianist view-point which is generally anti-brahmin.
It may not be much relevant today for us but let's not try and gag him.
 

palindrome

Active member
கால பைரவன்;196520 said:
The main motivation behind historical research about tamils and tamil kingdom, when it was overwhelmingly dominated by dravidianists, was to blame brahmins for the caste/varna system.
Ah this argument yet again. Varna system is not caste system. Varna is exclusively a 'brahmin' smartha system based on violence. Very much, yes, smartas need to take responsibility for it. And rest of hindus need to be aware what varna vyavastha and hindutva is about.

That is why the dravidianists clamied (and many still claim) that the four-fold class division found in tolkappiyam did not actually exist in Tamil kingdom. There are dravidianists who claim the entire "marabiyal" section was an interpolation. However, Tolkappiyam is not the only literature to mention this division and when references to its adherents are found in other sangam literature too, it had become difficult to accept tolkappiyar as brahmin because that would amount to accepting brahmin contribution to tamil.
I thot this was already discussed in this post: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11547-let-us-reclaim-our-rights-16.html#post183110 Your 4 fold claim was discussed here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11547-let-us-reclaim-our-rights-16.html#post183129

Motivated research by dravidianists stem from their hatred towards brahmins and the idea of channeling their hatred to achieve political power.
Motivated research by aryanists stem from their hatered towards inclusivism and the idea of channeling their hatered to achieve political power (just as the hinutva lobby does).

All these are moot point now because brahmins do not depend on dravidianists or even the dravidian land for their survival.
Really, then how come so many industries run by brahmins exist in tamilnadu?
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Really, then how come so many industries run by brahmins exist in tamilnadu?

That statement in particular and the general post is full of hatred. If you hate TB or a section of TB why do you keep writing in this site in your various avatar.

A industrialist or for that matter a businessman is successful because of his wits, it is not because of his birth caste. Or are you saying that Brahmins should not be successful. Brahmins has as much right as anyone to succeed and prosper. An intelligent person will find a way to prosper. Do you have a problem with that?
 

Nara

Well-known member
.....
Legend attributes to Agastya the bringing of cauvery to south. Surely, such legends are mythical. One man could not have brought a river to southindia.
Dear palindrome, there is a tendency among Hindutva types to subordinate Tamil to Sanskrit one way or another. One manifestation of this tendency is this tale that Agastiya a Brahmin was the father of Tamil literature. For evidence all they have is legend, and that too cherry-picked. If this part of the legend is to be taken as undeniable fact, then there is no rational basis to reject scores of other idiotic legends of Agastya such as the Vathapi episode.

Who was the Agastya who compiled the first Tamil grammar? There is very little definitive evidence to answer this question with any level of confidence, let alone proclaim him to be a Brahmin. To make this claim one has to be of the kind who "don't know what they don't know".

Agastya could very well be an extraordinary Siddhar with no link to Vedic Brahmins, but later appropriated by the Vedci Brahmins as one of their own the same way they try to appropriate Thiruvalluvar as one of them.

best wishes ...
 

palindrome

Active member
That statement in particular and the general post is full of hatred.
How is it full of hatered?

If you hate TB or a section of TB why do you keep writing in this site in your various avatar.
Why do you assume I hate TBs or a section of TB? I am writing against a particular ideology; I do not see why you should have a problem with that, unless you too support the hatered-filled smarta ideology.

Please spell out in which avatars I have been writing here. The only other userID which I used previously was happyhindu, which i had asked praveen to delete. I do not want to reactivate that ID because I do not identify with that term 'happyhindu' anymore. Praveen has the records. Feel free to check with him.

A industrialist or for that matter a businessman is successful because of his wits, it is not because of his birth caste.Or are you saying that Brahmins should not be successful. Brahmins has as much right as anyone to succeed and prosper. An intelligent person will find a way to prosper. Do you have a problem with that?
Underlined a point. That's precisely my point. If Kalabhairava brings caste into the picture, why not me.

You failed to read my response in context to Kalabhairava's post. What i wrote is a response to a very specific point.

Thankyou.
 
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palindrome

Active member
Agastya could very well be an extraordinary Siddhar with no link to Vedic Brahmins, but later appropriated by the Vedci Brahmins as one of their own the same way they try to appropriate Thiruvalluvar as one of them.
Yes Sir, the siddha tradition (which also includes peripatetic monks) seems ancient. However, am not sure how and why the origin of siddha tradition is linked to one man, Agastya, alone. This is a very curious case. Also, there was not one Agastya. There were few other (siddha) monks who lived in different time periods, all of whom got entitled "agattiyar".
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I find it amusing to read that some Brahmins claim Dravidianist hate them and some Dravidianist also claim that Brahmins hate them.

Why don't these 2 groups(it could just be very few who always feel persecuted) just ask themselves sincerely "Do I have Pride and Prejudice?"

If the answer is Yes than I guess both groups have a major problem with each other and with themselves.

All over the world we see people having Pride and Prejudice..in my sons school some Non Indians look down upon any Indian and call them black regardless of skin color of the Indian.

So I told my son to ignore anyone who has unwarranted Pride and Prejudice..it is their disease and not ours.

So what is so hard to ignore such stuff??

If we ignore a person's torments after a while he/she will move on to a new victim or a new ideology to victimize someone.

Most humans need a reason to fight with each other..some fight with fists..and some with thoughts...that's all.

I also cant understand why would anyone want to feel greater than anyone else when we humans are just as small as a speck of sand at the ocean shore without any significant benefit to the world.
 
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Dear Prasad, You hit the nail on the head. Do you think those people who hate us have the temerity to accept it?!
Any other forum they would come out openly and say so. In this forum, they are treading little careful. That is all!
 
I find it amusing to read that some Brahmins claim Dravidianist hate them and some Dravidianist also claim that Brahmins hate them.
Dear Doc, I am disappointed with your equivocation here. Don't you see the temper of the posts of some people? It is a lie when they say they they are against ideology and not against brahmins. The fact is, they do not differentiate at all. There is a specific reason why they keep using casteism and brahminism interchangeably and also add the word brahmin whenever they point to varna or caste system. If a member dares to present contrarian view, they call it shoddy. Tell me, what qualification do these members have to call other member's research shoddy? This is all done to corner the brahmins, impose a guilt-trip on them, and justify whatever discrimination that is being perpetrated against them. Do you want us to sit still and take in all the insults?
 

auh

New member
I also cant understand why would anyone want to feel greater than anyone else when we humans are just as small as a speck of sand at the ocean shore without any significant benefit to the world.

I think, it is because of the "I" :)
 

zebra16

Well-known member
Dear palindrome, there is a tendency among Hindutva types to subordinate Tamil to Sanskrit one way or another. One manifestation of this tendency is this tale that Agastiya a Brahmin was the father of Tamil literature. For evidence all they have is legend, and that too cherry-picked. If this part of the legend is to be taken as undeniable fact, then there is no rational basis to reject scores of other idiotic legends of Agastya such as the Vathapi episode.

Who was the Agastya who compiled the first Tamil grammar? There is very little definitive evidence to answer this question with any level of confidence, let alone proclaim him to be a Brahmin. To make this claim one has to be of the kind who "don't know what they don't know".

Agastya could very well be an extraordinary Siddhar with no link to Vedic Brahmins, but later appropriated by the Vedci Brahmins as one of their own the same way they try to appropriate Thiruvalluvar as one of them.

best wishes ...

Dear Nara,

Although you wanted a definitive evidence that Agastya was a Brahmin, you yourselves seem to know very little about him when you question "Who was the Agastya who compiled the first Tamil Grammar".

But you jolly well let your speculation run wild by opening up the possibility that he could very well be an extraordinary Siddhar. ReallY ?? Who told you that? Do you have any evidence? If you can speculate in this forum why not others speculate in this forum and other forums?

The way the expected company joins in your evidence-free possibility of Agastya being an extra ordinary Siddhar, it will become an indisputable fact in this forum within a period of six months and this thread will be quoted as Ph.D thesis.

By the way. does the principle of rationality take leave of absence in the case of Siddhars, whether ordinary or extra ordinary? What does science say about existence of siddhis.

Regards,
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
கால பைரவன்;196708 said:
Dear Doc, I am disappointed with your equivocation here. Don't you see the temper of the posts of some people? It is a lie when they say they they are against ideology and not against brahmins. The fact is, they do not differentiate at all. There is a specific reason why they keep using casteism and brahminism interchangeably and also add the word brahmin whenever they point to varna or caste system. If a member dares to present contrarian view, they call it shoddy. Tell me, what qualification do these members have to call other member's research shoddy? This is all done to corner the brahmins, impose a guilt-trip on them, and justify whatever discrimination that is being perpetrated against them. Do you want us to sit still and take in all the insults?

Dear Sir,

I think I forgot to be specific in my post..actually I did not mean any member here being anti Brahmin or any member being anti Dravid here( I am typing Dravid cos its easier to type it).

I was talking about the how the anti squad of either side in society thinks.

For me I do not believe in playing the blame game.

As Hindus we have a better reason instead of blaming any one..we can always say its our Karma if someone hates us or likes us and just ignore it and move on with life.
 
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