Vedha adhyayanam

[Vaagmi]

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Dear Sri Vaagmi



1. Language is indeed a tool to express ideas - certain problems are intractable that routine ways of addressing them are not realistic. (e.g., weather patterns are determined largely by Newton's laws but not possible to solve the problem directly using them though a different approach (e.g., strange attractors ) can provided results. Though we agree to leave the matter as it is, my thinking is that we are not talking about the same 'problem statement' perhaps. Regardless I do appreciate your engagement.

2. I did not talk about any experience or leaving 'I' behind - I accept limitations of not being to express any more in this medium. Perhaps one day if we meet we can talk more

3. OK, Let frog remain as it is ..
Bhakti, Love, Pure Love, surrender are words with meanings - often they mean different things to different people.
Hopefully we all can agree that word conveys a piece of knowledge.
I have reworded your statement to make a point ..

"“Knowledge” is a stage called jnAna. It is knowledge about the self, the 'abcd' and about what is good and bad for the self. Once this knowledge is acquired, it should in course of time mature into 'efgh'. 'efgh' is knowledge supplemented by immense amount of 'ijkl'. So 'efgh' is the final matured state. 'efgh' is a state of intense longing. 'mnop' helps.

For knowledge about a reality that gives to space and time there just are too many definitions and many cannot relate to Bhakti in sustained manner because its meaning (knowledge) will be unclear.

Having said this you seem to have deep appreciation for what these words mean to you and I respect that and leave the debate as it is

Once again thanks for engagement

Regards

Dear tks,

1. Strange attractors of the Chaos Theory come in only when you look at the things in a very wide canvass. I made only an effort to expand the canvass. Anyway I thank you too for the engagement.

2. Yeah. we can discuss if and when we meet.

3. Let me borrow the words. In my journey I have picked up a shell there and a pebble here on the beach. They are my valued possessions. I keep getting revalidation for their value frequently. The large ocean still lies there before me and I do not know what it has within itself. Many a cry in agony goes unresponded in the wilderness. But no regrets. Thank you.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Shri Sarang,

It is my understanding that one doesn't need language to think. Didn't the primitive men before language was invented, think and progress? In my view language is only useful to communicate with others

Dear sravna,

If I interpret your statement as meaning that the primitive man when he saw the world every time after waking up from sleep had the nirvikalpa pratyaksham. That whatever attributes he added to this pratyaksham was all forgotten when he went to sleep and hence every time he woke up with a clean slate?

 

[sravna]

Even to understand brahman (saguna or nirguna) one needs the words and the paths shown in vedopanishads. An emptied mind (through meditation) of the seeker is soon filled with words, pictures and sounds of brahman. That is why it is recommended to meditate on the forms and attributes of brahman in all our mathams. How can one even think of another world, say heaven, without a word, picture or sound to define that?

Sound, words and pictures are evoked in the mind because the mind is still progressing and cannot produce thoughts with such depth that a self realized mind can. So if one understood brahman then his mind does not need words and pictures to understand anything. But I agree with you that on the path towards such realization these intermediates may be required for understanding something deep.

 

[sravna]

Dear sravna,

If I interpret your statement as meaning that the primitive man when he saw the world every time after waking up from sleep had the nirvikalpa pratyaksham. That whatever attributes he added to this pratyaksham was all forgotten when he went to sleep and hence every time he woke up with a clean slate?

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

It is not that. What I mean is that language may not be required for the process of understanding.

 

[renuka]

. Conversely it is impossible to think without word-language knowledge.

Sarang ji,

There is something called Bhava.....it requires no language but it is felt.

Best example is "falling in love".

 

[tbs]

Sarang ji,

There is something called Bhava.....it requires no language but it is felt.

Best example is "falling in love".

hi
its called NINE BHAVAS according to bharata naatya saastra.....the dancer shows the bhava in bharata naatyam....sringara is

one of the bhava of FALLING IN LOVE....

 

[CHANDRU1849]

hi
its called NINE BHAVAS according to bharata naatya saastra.....the dancer shows the bhava in bharata naatyam....sringara is

one of the bhava of FALLING IN LOVE....

Actress Padmini expressed this in the song 'MARAINTHIRUNDHU PARKUM MARMAMENNA' in the film 'THILLANA MOGANAMBAL'.

 

[tks]

I understand one cannot think without a language. Words and experiences are necessary to convert and express thoughts. Conversely it is impossible to think without word-language knowledge.

Sri Sarang

We may 'think' without a commonly accepted language in a dream state but the brain is processing fragments of feelings, information and knowledge previously known to us ONLY.

It is not possible to conceive of an idea not known to us even in a dream though stringing together bits of information previously known to us to something unique is possible in a dream or in our imagination.

Therefore to your point - words, and experience (backed by words) are necessary to *communicate* to others. Usually even a unique idea has to be described in terms of a direct proof (perception), comparison, a set of deductions, absence of something etc. (there is more to say here but for brevity I will omit them)

It is not possible for humans to communicate their thinking to another without some words/language (it could even be a sign language). Feelings can only be communicated if a common experience is shared by use of same word to describe the experience.

What we think has limited value if it is not possible to communicate to others.

This is important because our teachings are 'objective' to communicate with precision. They have very specifically defined words that have no parallel. In translation to another language the meanings conveyed gets lost (like in "Satyam, Jnanam, Anantam Brahma" (Taiittriya Upanishad) - the Anantam is translated as Bliss experience sometimes and nothing could be farther from the truth)

The words we use willy-nilly like Brahman, Maya, Bhakti, Isvara etc have no parallel words from our world to learn from. So each of us make up something for these words based on our domain of knowledge, our experience and our likes & dislikes and they tend to be more often wrong than right.

Not sure if you were looking for a response - but here it is anyway

 

[sarang]

That is an instinct and emotion; animals do have these and stop with that or with a corollary act. No thinking and evolving follows.

Expression of emotions with acts is not thinking; how to think without a language or words?

Sarang ji,

There is something called Bhava.....it requires no language but it is felt.

Best example is "falling in love".

 

[renuka]

how to think without a language or words?

You clearly have never fallen in love!LOL

 

[renuka]

how to think without a language or words?

Kenopanishad:

Not that which speech can illuminate, but that by which speech can be illuminated: know that to be Brahman the eternal, and not what people here adore;
Not that which the mind can think, but that whereby the mind can think: know that to be Brahman the eternal, and not what people here adore.

Dear Sarang ji,

Brahman makes us speak and think yet Brahman thinks and speaks not.

What say you??

 

[renuka]

Dear Sarang ji,

We actually read by word recognition and not by spelling the words in our mind.

So like wise the thought process is not dependent on words but dependents on imprints formed in the mind.

Even in Hinduism we use the word Vasanas(impression/imprints) to describe our tendencies.

A person who is sighted but not able to hear and talk will depend on visual impressions to think.

A person who is not able to see but able to hear will depend on auditory and tactile impressions to think.


When we get a whiff of our favorite food we know right away what it is without the need for us to think cos we had formed an olfactory impression.

By feeling a cloth we know what type of cloth it is without even thinking..cos we had formed a tactile impression.

Therefore technically a language is just an auditory impression and nothing more.

 

[sarang]

We understand and get a glimpse of the brahman through vedas, the sruti. Even the pramanas are given in words in vedaopanishads.

Till one gets moksha, only language and words are available to him to traverse the path. 'narayana enru padungale'.

Kenopanishad:




Dear Sarang ji,

Brahman makes us speak and think yet Brahman thinks and speaks not.

What say you??

 

[renuka]

We understand and get a glimpse of the brahman through vedas, the sruti. Even the pramanas are given in words in vedaopanishads.

Till one gets moksha, only language and words are available to him to traverse the path. 'narayana enru padungale'.

I always wondered why Vedic transmission did not give importance to visually impaired people or hearing impaired individuals...to gain knowledge.

Transmission was by word and later on by writing.

Someone should write religious text in braille for the benefit for visually impaired individuals.

BTW not only words to traverse the path to Moksha but thought and deed too.

One needs to "realize" Brahman in everything.

 

[Vaagmi]

Ludwig Van Beethoven was stone deaf during the most productive part of his life. He said he saw

​music in cascading colours of a rainbow.