Thinking in English- Its been 60 years post Independence!

[meghavarshini]

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I think English in India is like Persian or Sanskrit... a language of those in power. Recently, some member had posted a very long reply to my comment on the thread motta-paati-virginity-what-nonsense-ask-some-brahmins(this is not a link). I had thought that this post, which gave some very offensive textual evidence from the scriptures about the "importance" of virginity was a ere joke, I mean can any person living in this era having grown up in a country working hard to emancipate women and people thought to be lower castes really believe that women ought to be controlled, that widows heads should be shaved of because the controller was dead? If virginity and "sexual activation" made a man the Supreme Controller, then why must the husband exercise such control? That sounds like the justification given for monarchy.

Now, maybe I'm being "modern". But thats exactly how religion survives, by being dynamic and accomodating. I did reply in jest, saying that if virginity makes a woman the taker's slave then the last person who should be enslaving her is the husband and so, virginity must be lost to a total stranger. But, apparently, this is a case of "thinking in English". Thats exactly what our azhwars were doing when they tried to create an equal society. I draw a comparison between caste and gender because these are two kinds of oppressions that have been sanctioned by "religious books". So many dalits converted to escape violence. So many people are turning atheist. Have we Hindus finally had enough?

I am Vaishnavite. I never call myself Brahmin(yet, I registered here to read about this community). If the Shastras must be believed, then I am no individual, I'm just a man's daughter. I am casteless, I must be called Brahmin because my father is one. Well, Ambedkar had pointed this out many many years ago. My question is, SHOULD THE SHASTRAS BE BELIEVED WHEN THEY SAY THINGS WHICH HAVE NO RELEVANCE TODAY AT ALL?

I am no "arundhati roy". I'm not urging people to dismiss religion but to engage with it. After Bhakti Movements and contemporary Dalit and Feminist Movements, its time our rituals and religious books get modified to redefine what a Hindu woman is. Maybe people are forgetting their old traditions, maybe. Or maybe its just the language that is changing. English, Tamil, Sanskrit, isn't the message important? The cruel edge that religios "secondary citizenship" has won't be borne for long.

This person(who called me "dry clouds") talked about Jawaharlal Nehru. I can't think of a bigger threat to our religion, and to society in general than his idea of secularism. As pointed out by many critics, Nehru chose to simply ignore communalism. We cannot afford to do so. Atheist think that religion is mere mumbo jumbo and they are quite right, at times. By giving Hinduism a new face, all this could change.

In the words of Charlotte Bronte "Convention is not morality, self-righteousness is not religion"

 

[praveen]

i removed the link in the first few lines. and just to let know that i will be keeping an eye on this thread from time to time.

 

[C RAVI]

This is a very big world and at times looks smaller. Everyone got the right of living their life in their own style and every one have tendencies, capabilities and skills to justify their life styles and feel at ease.

Wheather it's morality, religon, faith/beleif, righteousness OR just a plain practicle life without any realizations of all these, are all one's choice to live, feel, experience and realize what is what.

If we are happy with what we did and what we have as a result, that's more than enough to know what is what.

The problem arises when we, having justified ourself, try to dispute with others who can not accept our justifications.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Meghavarshini, Greetings. Welcome to the forum.

In this forum, there are 100s of messages posted stressing the equality between the genders, stressing the need to respect women.

The offensive messages posted by an isolated member is removed. I don't see the point in bringing it back to the forum again.

There is no need to 'change Hinduism'; it is evolving on its own. For some people, it seems it is not soon enough; but, nobody can deny the fact that Hinduism is evolving to the better.

Scriptures are opinions expressed by variuos persons at variuos times. They are evolving too. I request you to contribute more to the forum, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[meghavarshini]

Sir, with all due respect,I am no sowbhagyawati(my mother might be one, lol). I started this thread to emphasize the importance of individual contribution to changing Hinduism. On cannot merely rely on a few glorious personalities. It is up to us to CRITICALLY ENGAGE with religion,understand rituals, critique and decide what we want to keep and what has to be gotten rid of. I don't see any change as far as rituals are concerned, girls are still 'given away' when married, women have no caste or gotra. I ask you, why is it that a woman does not introduce herself when she seeks blessings? No kula, gotra or family lineage! Basic knowledge of Sanskrit is more than enough to change all that. Why must one be such-and-such's daughter or wife? An old argument could be, the man is the breadwinner. But things are changing. I feel like converting when religious ceremonies make women, gifted, talented and empowered seem subordinate to the most useless men. Dalits are converting Sir and it'll be the women next. I for one refuse to sit and watch people advocate complete submission or rejection. Religion is a public affair and so, even rituals need to change. We are not 14th century Papists!

Wrting articles on gender equality is one thing, it only deals with society and Bhakti. I'm talking about changing rituals, religious ceremonies, even titles! For instance, the difference between Chiranjeevi and Sowbhagyawati is quite a bit. What makes me 'lucky'? I'd rather retain the gotr I was born with(to begin with) rather that suddenly state that my lineage originated from a different sage!

 

[meghavarshini]

Sriman Ravi- This thread seeks to emphasize the importance of engagements and debate. One cannot be a subjectivist in such matters. In spite of opposition and disagreement, one has to critique, object and each consensus. Individual faith is one thing, but is it possible to have an egalitarian Hindu marriage ceremony without changing the mantras? Or having sacred thread ceremonies for women? Hell, maybe its too much, maybe everyone is going to give up trying to bring about change and just stick to Bhakti and registered marriages. But its worth a try. An active one at that. No priest or scholar has been able to answer my questions and I hate the sociologists' answers.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sir, with all due respect,I am no sowbhagyawati(my mother might be one, lol). I started this thread to emphasize the importance of individual contribution to changing Hinduism. On cannot merely rely on a few glorious personalities. It is up to us to CRITICALLY ENGAGE with religion,understand rituals, critique and decide what we want to keep and what has to be gotten rid of. I don't see any change as far as rituals are concerned, girls are still 'given away' when married, women have no caste or gotra. I ask you, why is it that a woman does not introduce herself when she seeks blessings? No kula, gotra or family lineage! Basic knowledge of Sanskrit is more than enough to change all that. Why must one be such-and-such's daughter or wife? An old argument could be, the man is the breadwinner. But things are changing. I feel like converting when religious ceremonies make women, gifted, talented and empowered seem subordinate to the most useless men. Dalits are converting Sir and it'll be the women next. I for one refuse to sit and watch people advocate complete submission or rejection. Religion is a public affair and so, even rituals need to change. We are not 14th century Papists!

Wrting articles on gender equality is one thing, it only deals with society and Bhakti. I'm talking about changing rituals, religious ceremonies, even titles! For instance, the difference between Chiranjeevi and Sowbhagyawati is quite a bit. What makes me 'lucky'? I'd rather retain the gotr I was born with(to begin with) rather that suddenly state that my lineage originated from a different sage!

Megha,

What an awesome post!! I AM impressed.

So many topics: women’s liberation, conversion, modernizing hinduism, equality of women in hindu practices, conversion and above all (my favourite) medieval popery!!

I know that I cannot do justice to the intensity of your thoughts or words, but pray, permit me to comment on a few stuff.

First conversions: though difficult to carry out, perhaps easiest to address. my favourite ‘Once upon a time’ poet, kamala das converted to islam, because she was so impressed by its simplicity. Very soon afterwards she had misgivings about her action, but still died a muslim, with islamic rituals post death. Before she could articulate her last thinking progress, kamala died, and so we do not know what her misgivings were about the indian islamic society where she was a newcomer.

Personally, I think conversion, is a denial of your ancestrage, and to me to deny my parents, is close to blasphemy. I will not convert. But I am a man. And you are a woman.

The closest to near equality for a woman, is now, in the post christian secular west. There is always the beauty of the difference of genders, but socially, I think, western european women, and their u.s. counterparts are among the equallest women to the men on earth. Whether we wait for a secular transformation of indian society before women achieve complete equality or through a series of legislation/social awareness/change of hindu practices – this is up in the air.

Btw, I wish to say that I am a ‘liberated’ man. All through my career, I have had mostly women bosses. All in all I found them better, than my male overlords. Just a personal opinion here.

I agree with you, that inspite of high sounding words, women, particularly tambram women have had the rawest deals. 100 years ago, had you lost your husband, it is just not your gothra that you lost in your marriage, but also your hair, dignity and social status – all would be gone. Even 50 years ago, I saw the horror of a widow turning to a mottai widow in my household. Even now, the thought freaks me out.

The best thing that happened to our women, is j.nehru. the alll sweeping hindu succession act of 1950, changed the way how woman are looked now. They have right to property – inherited property. In my relative’s case, she was 17 when rich rich hubby died. She did not get a paise because she did not have any children. Not nowa days..and there starts the difference.

Again, small families. I have relatives with female only families – one or two and maybe 3 girls. these are all educated with the same enthu and encouragement as the boys. And these girls are putting their foot down when it comes to marriages. No longer arranged chopLangis for them. I have lost count of marriage outside the tambram group within my extended family. Even where marriages are within the group, it is ‘love’ with the boys playing second fiddle. Truly, today’s urban college educated tambram girl, is Bharathiar’s dreamed ‘pudhumai peNN’. No?

most of these girls are not religious. To them a ‘poNdugal idal’ is more a social function – another hen party, glorified with some sanctimonious spirituality. How many of today;s girls cofine themselves to the house corner during their menses period? That habit stopped even when I was young. Today, it is not a social announcement, but a private bodily function of a female and is of no concern to anyone but herself. Right?

Personally, I am for reformation of rituals. Many of them make no sense in today’s world. We do it, just because, supposedly they gave glory to us once upon a time. ‘once upon a time’ is not today. Today is different.

I would do away with poonal for starters. or rather poonal should be optional for any hindu, who wishes to become a priest. Right from the dalit to the brahmin lineage, anyone should be a priest, and only earn the poonal after years of study. Something like a graduation garland.

Same thing goes for gothrams. In girls only households,, I think, if gothram means something, then the children should have the option of chosing whatever gothram they want.

Another bugbear of mine – probably wont disappear for another 500 years – the jadhagam poruthal stuff. I see lies and idiocy in almost all the ads. First of all, time capture – no two clocks are alike. How can we predict the exact time of birth? And a difference of a few seconds, means manglik or dosham or non dosham. Right? And no two astrologers agree anyway.

We tambrams are the most superstitious group I know. We claim sophistication, but still look at rahukalam or yamagandam. Bad things happen at other times, for which we have no excuses.

Finally, medieval papacy. European medieval history is another of my passions. Why not start a separate thread for that? I do not see too many folks here getting interested in that?

Best wishes and welcome to the forum !!

 

[sravna]

Dear Meghavarshini,

In my opinion men are better suited for the job of a breadwinner. In doing that he is exposed to the outside world and has to cope with with the problems that crop up as a result of that. He is made to handle that better than women. But I would say that my wife's job is equally important too which is one of being my support and my guide. She is the basis of all my achievements.

I would prefer that men and women play to their strengths and seek equality in what one can offer to the other and not by usurping what the other does.

 

[meghavarshini]

to kunjuppu

Thank you for the comment, I really enjoyed reading it. (I prefer Megh, if my name must be shortened)
This post is very specific- I talk of changing rituals, so as to suit today's climate and preserve Hinduism(yes, the show is necessary!) This post is not about social changes, feminism, and dismissal of rituals that spill into the non-feminist, non-castist category. They may be linked but I'm not dealing with them here.
First of, you started off with social changes. Nehru and Indira Gandhi did do their best to change things. I am most impressed by the fact that they manages to implement the entire Hindu reform Bill, clause by clause inspite of RSS shouting itself hoarse, saying divorce was immoral and women deserved only 1/8th of their father's property. However, I can't really talk about them because they were agostic(and Western Secular). Gandhi is a better example, he did his best while remaining Hindu, thus giving others an alternative- moving away from blind faith towards understanding. We needed a Gandhi then, now we need people who can redefine Hinduism without lables like 'agostic', 'atheist' and 'secular'.

Our society may change women may make it to the top but, like dalits, unless religion gives them an equal position, its not enough. As far as poonal and the rituals are concerned, I take all the 'have-nots' together. Bengali vashnavites wear it, not just Brahmins. But women, while assured pseudo superiority(I believe an uncle told me women must never recite the Vedas, but were allowed to learn. I wonder if I'm allowed to recite the bits written by Gargi) are reduced to such-and such's relative.

I'm not talking about just disbelieving rituals at an individual level and disregarding sentiments. Recently, my grandmother visited us from her home in Pollachi. She asked me not to enter the Puja Room or the kitchen on the days I was menstruating. I obeyed her then but discussed the matter logically, convinced her that she was doing women a great disservice(she is a highly educated govt. school teacher(progressive father) but feminism was at odds with her deeply pious nature ). It was only after she was convinced and when she gave me permission that I entered the 'forbidden' quaters. I still do not enter temples, I will not, unless the rules are changed. Lying is a very immoral solution.

 

[meghavarshini]

Sriman Sravana- Sir much as I respect your opinions, this post is not about whether women should work and life a life at par with them or not. Neither does it deal with the importance of the duties of a house wife or gender roles apparently created by God. Kindly refrain from digressing so that the thread can continue smoothly
Thank you.

 

[Nara]

... This post is very specific- I talk of changing rituals, so as to suit today's climate and preserve Hinduism(yes, the show is necessary!)

Dear Megh, Greetings and welcome to the forum!

I appreciate your concern to keep the thread focused on what you want to discuss. In this respect I think it is not irrelevant to ask you to justify why the portion I have highlighted above is so? If you think my question is irrelevant, please state your reasons if you may.

Thank you ...

 

[kunjuppu]

Megh,

I hope atleast I am on the right track and not diluting your thread. Your attitude and insistence that it be kept to the point is laudable. My bestest support to you to maintain this on track.

A couple of historic facts: when the hindu succession law was introduced, many congress leaders including Rajendra Prasad was against it. Rajaji was for it. Indira was no where in the picture.

For Hinduism reformation, Gandhi is not a good example. He believed in the varna system. Although we owe Gandhi a lot re fight for independence, I see him as the forebear of the high caste baniya/Brahmin link which has a stranglehold on Indian socioeconomicpolitical culture since independence (lighter note: Gandhi chetty son devadas married tambram rajaji daughter lakshmi)

One community which has successfully abandoned the unwanted philosophy and rituals, and come up with a brand new set of norms more intone with the modern times is the jews. They have the orthodox (strict separation of meat from milk etc, menstruating women separation and what not). Then they have the reformed, who have done away with whatever that does not make sense in the modern world.

Ofcourse, this is a very high level explanation. KRS who was married to a Jewish lady would probably know more. Though he is missing from this forum for quite sometime.

So we need a casteless Hinduism. The arya samaj was started thus. Infact, they eschew even vigrahams. I have been to a few arya samaj weddings in Toronto – they are very eclectical, to the point, and have no problems conducting the ceremony alongside other faiths (many of these are i.r. marriages).

The three main events of a human are birth, death and marriage. Of this the first two is beyond our control.

Only our marriage and how we treat it, we have some semblance of control. Though this too, could be explained as a result of some randomness !!

Caste in its manifestation as we see it now, may not disappear completely. the best transformation we can hope, is what happened to the tamil communities outside of india. I know the south African tamils to some intimate extent. Even today they proudly wear their caste label – chetty, moodly, Pillay, padayachee, naidoo et al.

But these are to them, just surnames. Free intermarriage between these is the norm.

Now if such a thing can happen in tamil nadu. with dalits as inclusives with the rest of hindu castes. That would be some reformation.

I have always felt, that with ic marriages, we match two traditions, and the children get the benefit of both. Nothing is lost, but there is so much gain.

So megh, for any reformation of Hinduism, incidentally also causing the destruction of caste and casteism, i.c. marriages should happen more. More and more. Till the walls of prejudices come tumbling down.

Maybe not in my lifetime. But within 100 years ? yes.

What do you think?

ps. please parse your sentences with spaces. it makes easier to read. thank you.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

The Scriptures of Hinduism are not properly understood by all and this results in the confusion.What is the central core concept of Hindu Philosophy?.A knowledgeable person says it is "DHARMA".
Please see the article in:-
Dr. A. V. Srinivasan: Religion

 

[kunjuppu]

BK,

if i may say so sir, i think the point of this thread is being missed when you state 'The Scriptures of Hinduism are not properly understood by all and this results in the confusion'.

it does not give credit to the erudity and intelligence of meghavarshini and folks like her who see, i think, a big chunk of 'out of dateness' and bias towards women in our religious scriptures and practices.

megh is particularly focussed on reforms, as it pertains to the status of women, within the hindu fold, she is not denying the religion, but on the other hand, is very concerned about its viability and longevity, in the light of current thoughts re equality. absolute equality.

a dalit or a woman: why should she be satisfied with a secondary position in the hierarchy. is there not a loss of dignity. no amount of consolation or explanation, can minimize the fact, that even today, in certain temples of tamil nadu, these are not welcome.

the same goes for the woman - why do we treat something so natural a function as menstruation, which is critical to the childbearing cycle, as something 'dirty'. ofcourse, we have the chauvinist explanation, about'how weak the women are during these days, and this segregation is an enforced rest'. i think all this plain crap.

if a woman is weak, on other days, are we going force her to work, because her 'weakness' does not fall within the prescribed 3 days.

no sir BK. i think the issue is - relevance. more and more people are become familiar with our doctrines. we cannot just whitewash them away, in the name of exclusivity or esotericism.

we need to think bottoms up. otherwise, just like western christianity, our heritage would simple fade away. there wont be any riots. there wont be any mass conversions. just abandonment. because of irrelevance to their lives. for any religion to flourish, it should provide a meaning and an absolute support. no midway position here.

atleast, this is what i think.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello Megh:

Welcome... I am very impressed... although I am personally a Naturalist, a NB but married to a very independent highly talented TB from Trichy.

"I'm not talking about just disbelieving rituals at an individual level and disregarding sentiments. Recently, my grandmother visited us from her home in Pollachi. She asked me not to enter the Puja Room or the kitchen on the days I was menstruating. I obeyed her then but discussed the matter logically, convinced her that she was doing women a great disservice(she is a highly educated govt. school teacher(progressive father) but feminism was at odds with her deeply pious nature ). It was only after she was convinced and when she gave me permission that I entered the 'forbidden' quaters. I still do not enter temples, I will not, unless the rules are changed. Lying is a very immoral solution."


She has told me very similar sentiments with very small changes.

She is marginally religious now - occasionally going to a Meenakshi Temple. I never worshiped any God for anything in the past 40 years! We have been living in the US since 1980.

She doesn't wear Pottu, or Thali or Sari regularly.. she dresses up according to the occasion and her mood.

I stand by her Civil Rights 100%... I am her husband, but mostly a friend and an admirer.

She is the Rock in our family, and I am very proud of her.

Please keep writing... I may like most of what you say!

Best wishes

Yamaka

ps: I welcome your critique of my posts elsewhere on religions, politics, economy etc.. Read "Aryan Invasion, Are we hypocrites?" etc. Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

"we need to think bottoms up. otherwise, just like western christianity, our heritage would simple fade away. there wont be any riots. there wont be any mass conversions. just abandonment. because of irrelevance to their lives. for any religion to flourish, it should provide a meaning and an absolute support. no midway position here."

Dear K:

I am arguing to create Reformists out of the Orthodoxy of Religions!

 

[Nara]

.....megh is particularly focussed on reforms, as it pertains to the status of women, within the hindu fold, she is not denying the religion, but on the other hand, is very concerned about its viability and longevity, in the light of current thoughts re equality. absolute equality.

K, Megh has surely made a mark in a very short time. I admire her forthrightness. The defenders of Hindu wisdom, Hindu science, Hindu this and Hindu that are duty bound to answer her questions or stop touting the greatness of their religion -- which is their religion only by accident of birth.

I am very sympathetic to Megh's vision for reform, however, I am also unsure what she envisages the reformed Hinduism to be. If her vision of reformed Hinduism is one that is free of caste and gender based discrimination, then I think it is just pipe dream. With its karma/reincarnation doctrine and scriptures that generally put women and Shudras down, it is near impossible. People have tried it in the past, Arya Samaj being one such experiment. Even they are unwilling to reject the varna system and they think of Manu as the greatest law giver ever.

The only change she can expect is one like what she was able to achieve with her grandmother, in her own home. Outside her home, there is no hope in the foreseeable future for her to see equality practiced within the Hindu religious milieu.

Talking about women not allowed to recite the Vedas, Vadakalai SV orthodoxy forbids women from reciting even Vishnu Saharanamam. Also, they are not allowed to study Srimat BG in a formal way. It seems only women are prepared to come for such Kalakshepams and some have found an ingenious loophole, with Acharya's permission of course, and that is to have at least one male pupil, even if he is ஒப்புக்கு சப்பாணி.

SV was once the most progressive religious denominations within Hinduism, and today, the way the present SVs practice it, it is one of the worst IMO.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Why don't you go to temple during "those" days? You can break an illogical Rule!


"I still do not enter temples, I will not, unless the rules are changed. Lying is a very immoral solution." --Megh

Hi Megh:

Many people know that the Rule is very illogical and very discriminatory... why are you hesitant to break the Rule, anyway?

That's not lying... the fact is you are clean and wholesome therefore you can go whereever you want to go. Why there is reverence to a useless bogus Rule?

A Small Narration of Similar Situation to Me:

We were living in a Condo near a Graveyard in Chicago.. during night people normally do not walk near the Graveyard. But, I routinely walk across the place to get home sooner.

Many of my friends and wife said that walking through the Graveyard is dangerous in the night! Because it may have ghosts and other bad things!!

I just laughed.. people believe in ghosts! ... but I don't... I will continue to do what I think is right and convenient, and I am not violating any law or whatever...I am not going thru any private property... and the Graveyard is a public property with a walkway inside!

Cheers.

ps. I even encourage my wife to enter into our pool during "those days" because in a 4 ppm chlorine treated water, everything is pretty clean! Believe me...

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Meghavarshini, Greetings.

'Sowbagyavathy' is not only a term for addressing; it is also a term for wishing a lady well. My friends daughter is just 9 years old; when I address her, I address her 'Sowbagyavathy'. ( I love the name 'Megha Varshini'; not just a cloud, but a downpour too!).

I started this thread to emphasize the importance of individual contribution to changing Hinduism. On cannot merely rely on a few glorious personalities.It is up to us to CRITICALLY ENGAGE with religion,understand rituals, critique and decide what we want to keep and what has to be gotten rid of.

Hinduism is only changing due to individual contributions at grass root level. Not just due to glorious few only. Glorious few like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Subramaniya Barathi, kanna dasan..... it is a long list...helped Hinduism to evolve in the right direction. At the end of the day, it is the individuals who accepted reforms to change the face of Hinduism. It is 'work under progress'. Rituals are personal choices. There can't be a hard fast rule about rituals. As such, nobody is forced to conduct any ritual. There is no set rule that says, 'one has to follow such and such ritual to be counted as a Hindu'... Hindus are Hindus by birth. Period. Hiduism doen't even have a procedure for someone to 'convert' to Hinduism. At the ritual front, Hinduism has already evolved for the better.

I don't see any change as far as rituals are concerned, girls are still 'given away' when married, women have no caste or gotra.

Women do have a Gothra, before marriage, same as her father. After marriage, she goes to a different family, so her (family name) Gothra changes. Women do cling to the caste of their birth. Not all the women behave as if they are casteless. Just like men, women too discriminate lower caste persons.

I ask you, why is it that a woman does not introduce herself when she seeks blessings? No kula, gotra or family lineage! Basic knowledge of Sanskrit is more than enough to change all that.

So, do you want to do 'abhivadhaye'? Why? Still the linage is identified by the name of the Rishi (Gothra), not the Rishi Patni, is it? Secondly, most persons lie when conducting 'Abhivadhaye', for, they have not read the branch of the veda; they haven't studied the Upanishad... but, claim to follow them! Do you like to do the same thing? Basic knowledge in Sanskrit may not change anything. Still you will be one's daughter or one's wife with basic knowledge in Sanskrit; that's all.

I feel like converting when religious ceremonies make women, gifted, talented and empowered seem subordinate to the most useless men. Dalits are converting Sir and it'll be the women next.

Converting to what? To a different religion? What difference would that make? After converting to X Religion, you would still be a woman, gifted, talented, empowered becoming a subordinate to the most useless man belonging to that religion; you could be one of few too!

Dalits are converting Sir and it'll be the women next. I for one refuse to sit and watch people advocate complete submission or rejection. Religion is a public affair and so, even rituals need to change. We are not 14th century Papists!

I don't know where you are coming across 'complete submission' for women these days. I don't know about anyone advocating such submission either. Kindly provide more details, please. I hope you are not going to produce some isolated incidents, please. If you feel like converting, just go ahead and convert, please. Last I checked, you have the freedom to convert out of Hinduism at anytime.

For instance, the difference between Chiranjeevi and Sowbhagyawati is quite a bit.

What is the difference? Both are well wishes. Chiranjeevi is blessed for a long life only; where as, a Sowbagyavathy is bleesed for not only long and healthy life, but all the riches too! So, what is your complaint, please?

(I am looking forward to see some 'thunder strom' from Meghavarshini, please!).

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...'Sowbagyavathy' is not only a term for addressing; it is also a term for wishing a lady well. My friends daughter is just 9 years old; when I address her, I address her 'Sowbagyavathy'.

Raghy, this is what Megh is objecting to, to wish a lady well by addressing her "Sowbagyavathy". Why couldn't she be addressed as "chiranjeevi" as a term to wish her well? What is the compelling reason for discriminating between male and female, after all, "Chiranjeevi" is gender neutral!

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, this is what Megh is objecting to, to wish a lady well by addressing her "Sowbagyavathy". Why couldn't she be addressed as "chiranjeevi" as a term to wish her well? What is the compelling reason for discriminating between male and female, after all, "Chiranjeevi" is gender neutral!

Cheers!

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

I addressed that question already in her reply in post #19...

What is the difference? Both are well wishes. Chiranjeevi is blessed for a long life only; where as, a Sowbagyavathy is bleesed for not only long and healthy life, but all the riches too! So, what is your complaint, please?

But in regular usage, 'Chiranjeevi' is not gender neutral, is it? Besides, Sowbagyavathy Meghavarshini thinks, there is a huge difference between the wishes 'Chitranjeevi' and 'Sowbagyavathy'.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... But in regular usage, 'Chiranjeevi' is not gender neutral, is it?

Raghy, to take a term that is gender neutral and make it into one in regular usage is what is objectionable, to me, and probably to Megh also, I think.

Besides, Sowbagyavathy Meghavarshini thinks, there is a huge difference between the wishes 'Chitranjeevi' and 'Sowbagyavathy'.

I do too, there is a difference, those who put on the shades of tradition will never see it.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Meghavarshini,

You know dear..dont ever think of conversion.Rules are more rigid in other religions.Sanathana Dharma is the best.We are free to chose the way we want to think or want to feel.
You know no need to make anyone see the light and change just do as you please and pull off the main power point and let others be in the dark.

I am also Hindu woman like you who does what I feel.You know more than man sometimes its woman who impose all these rules and regulations on other woman.

Like once I had gone to a temple with my husband and all of a sudden one old lady decides to ask me so loudly.."what is the relationship between you and that man with you"

I answered "He is my husband"

And guess what..she tells me this real loud in the temple "How would I know..I dont see a Thali on your neck and a pottu on your forehead so I was wondering whats your relationship with him becos you seemed rather close in contact with him and as a Tamil girl dont you know culture that a married woman should wear all these?"

I was thinking..she is in for it and I told her.."just assume you die a Sumangali..you will be adorned with your Thali but tell me what do you actually take when you go? Even right before putting you in the incinerator your Thali is removed from your body becos that time every knows the value of gold and its seen as purely as gold and everyone is afraid that someone will steal it..so even when you are dead everyone is thinking of thieves and not thinking of you..so just concentrate on prayers here and dont wonder if I am not wearing a Thali..think when Yama's noose will adorn your neck"

So girl take it from me..do what you want!!!



Disclaimer: This post is purely my thoughts and sharing it with everyone here and I am not degrading Sumangalis or promoting Adharma directly or indirectly.

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, to take a term that is gender neutral and make it into one in regular usage is what is objectionable, to me, and probably to Megh also, I think.


I do too, there is a difference, those who put on the shades of tradition will never see it.

Cheers!

Sri. Nara,

So, what is the objectionable difference between Chiranjeevi and 'Sowbagyavathy', please? I am not able to see it. Kindly show me, please.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

So, what is the objectionable difference between Chiranjeevi and 'Sowbagyavathy', please? I am not able to see it. Kindly show me, please.

How about using these terms interchangeably, say Sowbhagyatha for males (or something that is proper in Sanskrit -- Sangom may clarify), and use Chiranjeevi for females also.

Cheers!