Swami Vivekananda

[sarma-61]

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TO ALL,
I want to share my experience with all.Before I entered Government of INDIA service,my friends and some elders used to tell me that I am having lot of negative thinking,I joined the AUDIT department in 1954. I became a fault finding machine and a critic.I was always suspicious of people.Even good and sound advice I used to take with a pinch of salt.One gentleman(elder to me by 10 years) who was also in my office became my 'Mentor'.
Thanks to him I slowly changed myself and my way of thinking.While every one gets negative thinking easily, one is required to cultivate the habit of positive thinking.
My mentor is still alive and is living in Kumbakonam.
I have read once an article written by Mr.INDIRESAN( former Director of I.I.T. Chennai) in HINDU newspaper about negative thinking specially with reference to DMK party's ideology of 'Brahmin Hatred'.
According to him negative policies will be successful in the beginning,but in the long run there will be stagnation in thinking with no further progress.

Shri Krishnamurthy Sir,

With due respects, I differ on the above view/s. Negative thinking is not, in my view, readiness to consider, analyze, and, if this is found logically acceptable, accept that negative, whatever it may be. As an auditor yourself, I am sure you must have this capacity to be a "good judge" of what is good and what is bad, where some "ghotala" could be hiding in the govt. department and where it need not be. Otherwise, every one will think that you are a habitual fault-finder and even bosses may whatever findings you make after audit, with less belief and weightage.

Second, kindly consider whether your (and some others also) view of "negative thinking" is impartial or biased view like "I have believed all along my life that SV was a great mahatma, sanyasi, and what not, how can he be different from that? so, what Sarma says must be untrue and it has to be opposed." FYI - all of you - I had good opinion of SV but after reading many critical evaluations - of which most important was one long article in Malayalam by Swami Ranganathananda, in the Srutivani - the mouthpiece of Kerala Brahmin's Association - after he became the President of RKM, that I started getting doubts about the greatness of RKM. Ranganathananda said about whate was going on RKM when he - as a youth - joined the mission, may be about 90 years ago. If any of you get hold of that article pl. get it translated and read. I don't have it. To me Shri Ranganathananda tried to be honest and reveal - without so much saying so - that not everything was ok with RKM or the way it was even at the beginning. Later I stumbled upon this blog here. This made me to conclude that SV was a very different person then what he held himself out to the world to be. Hence my comments and attempt to bring forth this pov also.

I find it is usual in this forum - especially under the "general discussions" category - to give contrary views, and that separate sections are there in which no such criticism of scriptures, religion, etc. are allowed. Further pl. also give some consideration to Shri Praveen's views and allow opposing views in this general discussion category. As several members here are seen to say in other threds, if you do not like some posts or threds, you may skip that.

Last, if you feel negative thinking of DK/DMK from 1944 and 1967 will "stagnate in thinking with no further progress" in the future, is it not a pretty long beginning? and, honestly, in what area further progress will stop - new pro-dravidar slogans being invented, or, loss of following and loss of political power? consider the longer history of INC which started with very, very anti-British (is this not negative, according to you?) agenda of Gandhi, had a very good following even after Independence but has it not also stagnated later? either one should be honest enough to admit INC also rose to powere on the neagative platform of non-cooperation, Quit India, no salt tax and all, and admit this to be another example which supports your theorem above, or, should agree that even positive thinking parties like INC did not have progress but only decline after 1967 (just 82 years) when it split.

To Mr.Sarma-61,
As suggested by Mr.Swami, You may present authentic Stories on the darker sides of not only SV,RK but other spiritual personalities like Bhagvan Ramana Maharishi,Ramalinga Adigalar and anyother great persons.
Earlier there was a thread 'Spiritual Frauds' which lead to some sensitive members stop contributing to this forum or leaving the Forum.Members who are thick skinned like me will continue in this forum at least for
'time pass' as Mr.Nara had commented in some other thread.
ONE request.Please open a separate thread for this purpose.This thread was started by Mr.Siva with noble intentions and to admire the works of SV for Vedantic Philosophy of Hindus.

I don't know how to present "authentic stories", but whatever I have posted are authentic writings/ expressions of SV. For full particulars kindly read the blog referred to above.

 

[happyhindu]

Sarma Sir,

Previously there was a thread on Spiritual Frauds which generated much heat. I was irked by the 'selective' fraud finding. I also consider myself to have been ''closed minded'' at that time. Now am willing to listen, and to know more about the alter sides of all religious men, be it Satya Sai Baba, Kanchi Paramacharya, Ramana Maharishi, Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahansa, etc.

So please do start a new thread on the topic. I will not participate but will surely read the posts on it. I request you to include personalities from other religions also in the thread, like Mohammed Prophet, Jesus Christ, and so-called saints and religious leaders from islam, christianity, sikhism, jainism, buddhism, etc.

Regards.

 

[Nara]

....I joined the AUDIT department in 1954. I became a fault finding machine and a critic.

Dear BK sir, is it not the duty of an auditor to look for faults? An auditor who fails to see faults will fail to fulfill his/her responsibility, no?

I am not sure what you mean by negativism, but, if it means skepticism, then, IMO, it is not a bad thing. It seems to me that our ancients did not get boxed in with rapt reverence to handed down "wisdom". I think they were a questioning lot. They wondered what the purpose of all this teeming life is all about. They came up with lot of speculative musings that came to be called Upanishads. Buddha was another questioner. He was not impressed with all this talk about gods and rituals and rejected all of them wholesale. He was a major fault-finder.

I don't know how it all came about, but we are now saddled with over reverence to leaders. On the one hand Brahmins mock the reverence party members show to JJ or MK, but at the same time they have no problem elevating their religious leaders to நடமாடும் தெய்வம் status. Once elevated to status of god, to question is to blaspheme. We sink deeper into superstition. Conform, or else you are doomed. This is the reason, IMO, why most of the exciting philosophical works in the last few centuries have come mainly from the west.

In this context, I applaud Sarma-61's posts about SV, in so much as they bring down SV from unscalable reverential heights to the status of a prolific scholar who had some really interesting things to say about Hindu philosophy. Now we can debate, question, analyze what SV said and take what makes sense and reject what does not make sense. We don't have to treat him as an idol and unquestioningly accept every last word he uttered.

Is this not a good thing?

Cheers!

 

[sarma-61]

Sarma Sir,

Previously there was a thread on Spiritual Frauds which generated much heat. I was irked by the 'selective' fraud finding. I also consider myself to have been ''closed minded'' at that time. Now am willing to listen, and to know more about the alter sides of all religious men, be it Satya Sai Baba, Kanchi Paramacharya, Ramana Maharishi, Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahansa, etc.

So please do start a new thread on the topic. I will not participate but will surely read the posts on it. I request you to include personalities from other religions also in the thread, like Mohammed Prophet, Jesus Christ, and so-called saints and religious leaders from islam, christianity, sikhism, jainism, buddhism, etc.

Regards.

Smt. HappyHindu,

My idea is not giving a collection of the unknown (less glorious) sides of people who are held in high regard generally. such a one-sided series will serve no purpose, it will be counterproductive. But i feel when only the glory of someone is given and it is made to look that that person is like an angel or deva, superhuman, i feel it will be useful to also know the less palatable side of that person and thus get a "balanced" view.

According to me even the older "avatara purushas" - pl. note god vishnu has so far been shy of taking a female avatar, even if he was become a pig, fish, tortoise, all males i should think!! and a he-lion - like sankaracharya, ramanujacharya, madhvacharya, etc., might have had similar aspects which have been lost because of time factor. however, personalities of even earlier eras (or are they just figments of imagination?) like kumbhakarna (as a true, devoted and very wise brother of Ravana), vibheeshana (a rat in the sinking ship, a traitor to lanka and ravana), kunti (a very selfish and unprincipled mother who led her most gallant but unloved son karna to death by unjust means brought about by her getting a promise that he will not kill arjuna - anyone who does this to her son is a fiend, no less), krishna (as adharmic and unprincipled as any politician of today, or even a step ahead of them, he tricked and exterminated both kauravas - except Parikshit who is known as kuru king - and pandavas, probably so that his own vrishni clan will rule bharatavarsha without either of the two mighty royal clans - but gandhari's curse and krishna's grandsons' mischief against a rishi brought about his death and complete extermination of vrishni clan.) and so many others have been viewed in a non-conventional pov and written about. That i think is what we must have, a open mind to see both sides.

I feel TBs are as a group, yet to acquire that equanimity, though they brag much about the noble aspects of hinduism, etc.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sarma said -

According to me even the older "avatara purushas" - pl. note god vishnu has so far been shy of taking a female avatar, even if he was become a pig, fish, tortoise, all males i should think!........

Sri.Sarma Sir, Greetings. Without checking the puranas, two instances mentioned in the puranas flashes in mymind. One instance, to cheat Asuras from their share of 'amirth', Lord Vishnu came as 'mohini', a drop-dead beauty, as the story goes; in a second instance, to kill 'Banaasuran' (Speling?), Lord Vishnu came as Mohini, lead Banaasuran to his destruction and saved 'Lord Siva'. (The trouble in this instance was, Lord Siva said have 'fell in love with that Mohini' as the story goes......

Cheers!

 

[sarma-61]

Sri.Sarma said -



Sri.Sarma Sir, Greetings. Without checking the puranas, two instances mentioned in the puranas flashes in mymind. One instance, to cheat Asuras from their share of 'amirth', Lord Vishnu came as 'mohini', a drop-dead beauty, as the story goes; in a second instance, to kill 'Banaasuran' (Speling?), Lord Vishnu came as Mohini, lead Banaasuran to his destruction and saved 'Lord Siva'. (The trouble in this instance was, Lord Siva said have 'fell in love with that Mohini' as the story goes......

Cheers!

Shri Raghy Sir,


You are correct that vishnu took the form of "mohini" in amruta episode and also in "bhasmaasura" vadham - not baanaasura. But these are not counted as among the ten "avataaras" . I was careful in using that word, if you will kindly see.

ava +taara, i am told is to come down (avatrue) and it implies coming down to this world of humans. while the two instances happened in bhuvar- and suvar-lokas, i think.

so, my statement is correct, i believe.

 

[Nara]

.... But these are not counted as among the ten "avataaras" . I was careful in using that word, if you will kindly see.

ava +taara, i am told is to come down (avatrue) and it implies coming down to this world of humans. while the two instances happened in bhuvar- and suvar-lokas, i think.

I know this is a little bit of diversion from the topic of Swami Vivekananda, but I feel like adding a little from what I have read. What I am about to write is from Sri Vaishnava (SV) theology, I don't know whether this is accepted by others or not.

Pancharatra Agama states Sriman Narayana takes five forms of Avatharas:

1. Param -- the divine body -- divya mangala vigraham -- in Sri Vaikuntam, this avatara is permanent, i.e. no start or end, anaati and anantam
2. Vyuham -- the forms that he takes for the purpose of creation and be the lord of various creations
3. Vibhavam -- these are avataras taken for a specific purpose and lasts for a short period of time. There is supposed to be roughly 30 or so such avataras. Ten of these are suppose to be special and thus called dasaavatara.
4. antharyaami roopam -- Sriman Narayana is supposed to reside in a vighraha form inside the heart of all human beings, ready to me meditated upon.
5. archa -- these include the moolavar and utsavar in temples, salagrama and other vighrahas in homes

In this, except for Param, all the other avataras take place in Leela Vibuti that undergoes destruction during pralayam of various kinds and creation during shrusti.

Swami Pillai Lokacharyar gives a wonderful example of water for a thirsty man to explain the differences among these five forms of avataras. Param is like water in clouds, Vyuham is like the milk in the milky ocean, Vibhavam is like flood water long gone and only memory is left, antaryami is like water in a deep well, but archa is like fresh cool water readily available to drink and quench one's thirst.

Cheers!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Sarma,

I don't know how to present "authentic stories", but whatever I have posted are authentic writings/ expressions of SV. For full particulars kindly read the blog referred to above.

The excerpts quoted in the blog are nothing new. Those are very much in the realm of public domain. You kindly go through the "Completed works of SV" in print in leisure to get the larger picture. It will be of great interest to me what Swami Rangathananda said when he joined the Mission. However, I am sure had he spoken disparagingly deliberately without an iota of truth, he would been thrown out the order even in his early days there.

I don't know whether I am younger of elder to you, but I would advise you not to lose your credibility by making unsubstantiated allegations on such a personality such as SV.
He had weathered enough of those in his short life, and has come out shining.

Let me quote a passage of Vivekananda which gives a glimpse of his perspicacity:

"Each nation has its own peculiar method of work. Some work through politics, some through social reforms and some through other lines. With us, religion is the only ground along which we can move. The Englishmen can understand religion even through politics. Perhaps, the Americans can understand religion even through social reforms. But the Hindu can understand even politics when it is given through religion, sociology must come through religion, everything must come thro' reigion. For that is the theme, the rest are the variations in the national life-music."

With regards,
Swami

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Sarma,



The excerpts quoted in the blog are nothing new. Those are very much in the realm of public domain. You kindly go through the "Completed works of SV" in print in leisure to get the larger picture. It will be of great interest to me what Swami Rangathananda said when he joined the Mission. However, I am sure had he spoken disparagingly deliberately without an iota of truth, he would been thrown out the order even in his early days there.

I don't know whether I am younger of elder to you, but I would advise you not to lose your credibility by making unsubstantiated allegations on such a personality such as SV.
He had weathered enough of those in his short life, and has come out shining.

Let me quote a passage of Vivekananda which gives a glimpse of his perspicacity:

"Each nation has its own peculiar method of work. Some work through politics, some through social reforms and some through other lines. With us, religion is the only ground along which we can move. The Englishmen can understand religion even through politics. Perhaps, the Americans can understand religion even through social reforms. But the Hindu can understand even politics when it is given through religion, sociology must come through religion, everything must come thro' reigion. For that is the theme, the rest are the variations in the national life-music."

With regards,
Swami

Shri Swami Sir,

The "complete works" will be a sanitized account, a hagiography, as they say. I have read much of it - though I cannot say completely - and at one time I also thought SV had made some great achievements. But as I started reading various povs, I grew convinced that much more is being attributed to SV than what he really might deserve, by "selective" writings. My idea was only to present the other, seemingly not glorious side. But without saying anything about why no non-glorious side could exist in SV's personality, nor what great achievement he made for hindus/hinduism and the vast millions of "daridra narayanas" of this country, you say I will lose my credibility if I write on the other aspects of SV. Is this not an intimidating approach which is rooted in intolerance?

Well, if I lose my credibility, so be it.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Shri Swami Sir,

The "complete works" will be a sanitized account, a hagiography, as they say. I have read much of it - though I cannot say completely - and at one time I also thought SV had made some great achievements. But as I started reading various povs, I grew convinced that much more is being attributed to SV than what he really might deserve, by "selective" writings. My idea was only to present the other, seemingly not glorious side. But without saying anything about why no non-glorious side could exist in SV's personality, nor what great achievement he made for hindus/hinduism and the vast millions of "daridra narayanas" of this country, you say I will lose my credibility if I write on the other aspects of SV. Is this not an intimidating approach which is rooted in intolerance?

Well, if I lose my credibility, so be it.

If it were sanitised, then all accounts related to his smoking and meat-eating habits, too would have been left out. Also many of the correspondence in which reveals his anger and frustration on the attitude of people of his generation in India too would have been concealed.

In fact you appear to be contradicting yourself when you quote passages of his in which he has been critical of Indians...

I think I am a fool to advise you restraint on this issue -- which I did in your interest.

With regards,
Swami

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

TO ALL,
I have attended lectures of Swami Ranganadanda in Hyderabad for more than three years.He used to praise ADI SANKARA and SWAMI VIVEKANANDA in every lecture.People used to call Swami
Ranganadanda as 'miniature Vivekananda'.He joined RKM when he was very young
and had done odd jobs like washing of utensils,cutting vegetablesetc.He himself used to say about these things.He was 75plus when he was in charge of RK mutt Hyderabad. He must have been pretty aged when he became President of all RK mutts and positioned at BELUR MUTT.
Unless we read as to what he said at the fag end of his life which was reproduced in a Kerala Journal,we cannot form any opinion.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

To ALL,
Mr.Stalin Gunasehkaran has written an article in Tamil Newspaper 'DINAMANI" (27th January,2011) praising Swami Vivekananda for various speeches which laid the foundation for INDIA getting independace
from the British Rule.

 

[sangom]

I was going through this thread where one member has presented many facts based on the published works of Swami Vivekananda. That is when I found the attached item from the Hindu - which I did not read initially, thinking that it might not be useful, being an advertisement of the Freemasons.

Some years back there was an interview of one highly placed Freemason in a tv channel, wherein he claimed that but for the fact that Vivekananda was a Freemason and hence all Freemasons in USA, as is enjoined by their brotherhood, ensured that his lecture at the World Parliament of Religions got the best possible audience, publicity and reception, but for which it would have been just another address by someone representing some unknown eastern credo.

I did not believe it entirely then, though I felt the Swami must have been a Freemason. But here is proof that he was one.

That Rajaji also was a Freemason is interesting news.

 

[siganeswarie]

That good information

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

There is a saying in tamil.One can help a person to climb a tree only upto a point.Thereafter
he has to climb to the top himself.
It could be true that, being members of 'fremasonclub' helped Shri.Rajaji and
Swami Vivekananda to become famous persons. BOTH were great people by themselves.An ordinary person with average capabilities could not become so famous
merely being a member of 'Fremason club.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I was going through this thread where one member has presented many facts based on the published works of Swami Vivekananda. That is when I found the attached item from the Hindu - which I did not read initially, thinking that it might not be useful, being an advertisement of the Freemasons.

Some years back there was an interview of one highly placed Freemason in a tv channel, wherein he claimed that but for the fact that Vivekananda was a Freemason and hence all Freemasons in USA, as is enjoined by their brotherhood, ensured that his lecture at the World Parliament of Religions got the best possible audience, publicity and reception, but for which it would have been just another address by someone representing some unknown eastern credo.

I did not believe it entirely then, though I felt the Swami must have been a Freemason. But here is proof that he was one.

That Rajaji also was a Freemason is interesting news.

Even it were true that both Vivekananda and Rajaji were Freemasons it does not take away their inherent talents.
Some one like Vivekananda would have shone anywhere. Prof Wright has made an similar observation about his talents.

In fact Freemasons should feel proud to proclaim him as their member.

Rgds.,

 

[Haridasa Siva]

"தன பெண்டு, தன பிள்ளை, சம்பாத்தியம் , சோறு, வீடு, இவை உண்டு தானுண்டு என்போன் சின்னதோர் கடுகு போல் உள்ளம் கொண்டோன்"

மேலே கூறிய பாரதிதாசனின் கடுகு உள்ளம் தான் பெரும்பான்மையான மக்களுக்கு உள்ளது. இருப்பினும் காந்தி, விவேகானந்தர் போன்ற உத்தமத் தலைவர்களை நாம் மிக எளிதாக விமர்சிக்கிறோம். இதை என்னவென்று சொல்வது?

We must learn to admire great people!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

"தன பெண்டு, தன பிள்ளை, சம்பாத்தியம் , சோறு, வீடு, இவை உண்டு தானுண்டு என்போன் சின்னதோர் கடுகு போல் உள்ளம் கொண்டோன்"

மேலே கூறிய பாரதிதாசனின் கடுகு உள்ளம் தான் பெரும்பான்மையான மக்களுக்கு உள்ளது. இருப்பினும் காந்தி, விவேகானந்தர் போன்ற உத்தமத் தலைவர்களை நாம் மிக எளிதாக விமர்சிக்கிறோம். இதை என்னவென்று சொல்வது?

We must learn to admire great people!

Dear Sir,

None of us can hold a candle to the likes of Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo. If someone thinks they can belittle such personalities, they are lowering their own esteem.
It is regrettable that a senior is indulging in such an exercise.

Rgds.,

 

[ambes]

Vivekananda quotes

vivekananda quotes

 

[siganeswarie]

Swami Vivekananda:''If there is one word that you find coming out like a bomb from the Upanishads, bursting like a bombshell upon masses of ignorance, it is the word 'fearlessness'''

 

[TARAKNATH]

sit, can u provide me with the source of
a) the photo Swamiji in Mason Regalia
b) the details about the tv interview mentioned by u

 

[TARAKNATH]

I was going through this thread where one member has presented many facts based on the published works of Swami Vivekananda. That is when I found the attached item from the Hindu - which I did not read initially, thinking that it might not be useful, being an advertisement of the Freemasons.

Some years back there was an interview of one highly placed Freemason in a tv channel, wherein he claimed that but for the fact that Vivekananda was a Freemason and hence all Freemasons in USA, as is enjoined by their brotherhood, ensured that his lecture at the World Parliament of Religions got the best possible audience, publicity and reception, but for which it would have been just another address by someone representing some unknown eastern credo.

I did not believe it entirely then, though I felt the Swami must have been a Freemason. But here is proof that he was one.

That Rajaji also was a Freemason is interesting news.

sir, can u provide me with the source of
a) the photo Swamiji in Mason Regalia
b) the details about the tv interview mentioned by u

 

[sangom]

sit, can u provide me with the source of
a) the photo Swamiji in Mason Regalia
b) the details about the tv interview mentioned by u

The photo was in a special supplement to The Hindu, Thiruvananthapuram edition of some date during January 2011. The tv interview was some years ago - may be 5 or 6 - when there was some significant change in the Freemasons' lodge of Kerala, I think.

 

[TARAKNATH]

The photo was in a special supplement to The Hindu, Thiruvananthapuram edition of some date during January 2011. The tv interview was some years ago - may be 5 or 6 - when there was some significant change in the Freemasons' lodge of Kerala, I think.

thank u sir very much. can i get some details about the photo as when it was taken and who was the photographer?
as par the claim that masons helped in publicity of swamiji during chicago par. of rel, do u think it is really based on fact or only assumption?

 

[ambes]

Swami vivekananda -mason regalia

Dear taraknath
foto of swami Vivekananda -Photo mason regalia