Status of Women in Brahmin Community

[KRS]

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Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

There is nothing more to 'sort out the Shastrigal issue'. I have clearly stated where my opinion is different from yours and unless you specifically address by point why I am wrong, that is different from the explanations you have provided so far, we need to agree to disagree.

Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji, who narrated the incident, in my opinion, was not viewing the actions of the Shastrigal as being compassionate. If my view on that is different he has to chime in. Otherwise, I stand by my assesment.

Regarding the Unity issue, it was a plea. But of course if you can not agree to disagree, then it is up to you. I laid out the reasons for such a logic.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[malgova.mango]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sri KRS![/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is not like an ideology where we agree to disagree and move on. You've levelled a very serious charge and even after substantial explanation you are not convinced on the innocence of shastrigal. You are adamant on your charges and said that you too understood the codes. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the light of your understanding of the codes only, I asked you to substantiate your criticism on shastrigal. [/FONT]

If that's too much to ask , forget it.



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let's part - agreed[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]malgova.mango[/FONT]

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan and Sri KRS!

Just yesterday, I read the book on Dharma Shastra on "Last rites".

I translate here what I read, In the last rites - the Kartha is very important, The chief important person is the eldest son, and then there are a list of secondary 35 person listed who can do the act. Secondary persons are called "Kauna Karthas".

In that the 7th person is the wife, and as the list goes down in that order many female relations have the authority to perform the rites. The "Gnathis" of the father side comes in 20+ places.

Infact there is no mentioning of wife's brother to do the act.

But it says any brahmanas can do if the relations are not available as a sort of last measure. If nobody is availble then as a very last measure it says the king can allocate someone to do the act.

The shastric view is to give a proper rites for the dead to guide the inbetween stages between birth without excluding anyone.

The shastrigal might have erred, my heart-felt apologies for my remarks. I now agree with Sri KRS that is comment about me is 100% correct. My heart felt apologies to Sri KRS too.

Regards,

The position of women India and role of Hinduism has been debated so often. But it is shocking that we continue to deny some of the basic rights to women.

Right too cremate a parent or husband. Hinduism places so much emphasis on sons. Even among the sons the eldest son only has the right. When a man who has no sons dies, the rule is some male in his line ie in the same gotra has to do it. This is leading to pitiable situations.

An acquaintance of mine died in Madras. He had no son. Only one daughter. The daughter who was in the U.S could not come. The wife was asked to get some relations on his side to perform the funeral. Since he had fallen out with his family, they refused. Later they put a condition that 50% of the property should be given to the performer. The wife was driven to dire straights. When she wanted to perform the right the Sasthirigal refused to officiate for a woman. He was ultimately persuaded to accept the wife's brother for doing the cremation. This he had refused initially.

Is this human? This is cruelty and discrimination of the highest order.

Sorry Sir, I am not bothered about what our scriptures say and any justification for this wanton cruel treatment meted to women by denying the right of even give a final send off to a loved one.

Are we doing anything about it. No. Sir. We are like the three monkeys deaf, dumb and blind.

Oh! I almost forgot. The women should not come to the smashan. When my mother died we asked the sasthirigal to keep the advice to himself and went to the samasdhan with my sisters and the grown up children (another prohibited category).

I will be listing more of such inhumanities which are being perpetrated on women in the name of religion and tradition.

Right now I am too angry to continue.

 

[kunjuppu]

not sure which thread to post this note. let it be here. but the context of it, could be in many other threads.

it happened in my family. probably similar situations in many of yours, and can probably relate to it.

about a couple of generations ago, one of the girls of the family, in late teens was married off as the custom was in those days. it was said that she was the prettiest and most spirited among her near and dear.

as fate would have it, the husband died in a few weeks, and she was brought him. she was upset and angry at the deprivation. the elders huddled , and in their wisdom decided that leaving her as is was a potential for possible damage to the family reputation. she might do something like runnin away, for this was a very gutsy girl. as an antidote, she was forcibly shaved off her hair against screaming protestations, offered widow's weeds and banished to a room, with someone keeping her company day and night.

for 50 years, this family, mine, always lived under this humungous presence of my aunt's sorrow, frustration, anger, deprivation, longings, sense of loss and ultimate resignation to her fate. life was never normal, for as a family we could never enjoy any celebration, for deep in our hearts, there was this feeling of uneasiness that somebody was done wrong. i have heard whispers when growing up, that in the isolation, my aunt would go through her wedding sarees and jewels and weep. for such is our desire to live and enjoy life.

yet the elders, all b.a.b.l.s or l.m.p.s and such like, felt trapped in their sampradayam to even think of alternates.

which is why i rejoice today. i know we would do such things to our sisters, daughters, nieces. we have indeed come a long way, all in two generations. if you take the concept of time, two generations is even smaller than two specks of sand in the marina beach. so, when i read some comments about our female youngsters' exhuberance, i celebrate their freedom, for i do know and have experienced our darker side. to our credit as a community, female education is taken for granted by all of us, for we have finally moved our females from the pedestal, and have learned to treat them same as us males.

something that we can all be proud of as a community.

i do not feel threatened of change. change is inevitable. it is best that change be welcomed, but managed, to one's level of comfort, so that one does not lose one's moorings.

thank you.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

That was cruel indeed! I am for widow remarriage. I am pretty sure there are saastraic evidence to support widow remarriage. I cannot quote now but I have heard of it. Those people should have consulted the Acharyas before doing such tyranny.

It is high time that our community get involved like all other religions in an authority. We don't but we complain. That is our biggest problem.

Regards,

 

[kunjuppu]

ramaa,

i think my immediate and extended family changed after this trauma. they experienced something that they never wanted to go through again.

a few years later, another young lady lost her husband and this one was left with an infant daughter. the father in this circumstance, brought the woman back home, sent her to a technical institute, got her typing/shorthand lower/higher and eventually set her up in a flat so that she could get on with life, without being dependent on her siblings. all of the relatives gave them a wide support and encouragement.

this woman, a few years later, found a compatible man of nair caste and expressed her wish to marry him. he was a colleague of hers, and he developed a very kind and loving relationship with her daughter.

the father enquired around, and to no surprise, found that no brahmin youth would have anything to do with daughter by way of marriage. so he okayed this wedding to the nair. i am happy to say this was a very devoted family, blessed with a son later. the little daughter grew up with a healthy mind, and is now married to an iyer guy, with children of her own.

all this happened over 30 years ago. since then several in my family have married outside of our community. now a days we treat it with a shrug. though my one of my neices got engaged very recently. the boy was her own choice. my sister was very gratified, as this was an iyer like us. she would have accepted her daughter's choice regardless, but was nevertheless gratified that her 'to be' son in law is from the same caste.

thank you.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Kunjuppu,

There is always a humane solution if we seek one. Very recently a nephew of mine had died in an accident leaving behind a young widow and a baby. His wife has been a home maker all along. My brother is trying to get her a job so she can carry on with her life. My brother who is in the mid 80s is a very orthodox man however he always told me that our saasthras are more humane than most people have portrayed it. He would never accept inhuman attitudes in the name of the saasthras and I have seen him vehemently arguing against rigidities quoting Vedas, Puranas and saasthras. It is the ignorance part of this humaneness that is bringing bad name to our religion and our community.

It is too early to suggest to her to find a mate. But in due time I will do that.

Regards,

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sirs,

This is what I believe.......

If a men or women genuinely felt the loss of the partner, and no more intersted in matrimonial life, then shastra shows a way to keep the chastity vow. It should be emphasised that it should be strictly on voulantary basis by the concerned party not for some external social pressure.

In Mahabharata, men like, Pithamagar Bhishmacharayar vowed chastity and followed the tapas as per shastric guide, Vithurar (means widower literally) also followed.

But somehow, men didn't practice the vows and degenerated very badly, one of the other shameful practice was old men marrying young girls, (Maha abatham) . Even in ages like 70's they are not ashamed to marry a 17 year old girl. After they die quickly,this poor girl has the social pressure to keep the chastity vow. Crazy... literally some go crazy.

As Sri Kunjuppu observed , it is good we came out from that. But still I don't agree with the intercaste marraige.

Regards

 

[Ramaa]

Young widowed women should not be restrained (who are we to do that anyway!) from marrying anyone of their choice irrespective of the caste for their own security and companionship.

Young widower's case is different. He should marry another Brahmin girl and carry on with his Dharma.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Ramaa!

Widow or Widower of our community should be remarried within our community only, if they choose.

Why did you say, women can go out but men should not?

Regards,

 

[Ramaa]

Because the lineage is in tact only on the male side. This is proved to be true by science also. Secondary to this is the fact that the security and companionship to a widow is paramount if she chooses to have. If a widow can find a Brahmin boy well and good but what is more important is that the widow should be able to remarry.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Ramaa!

It makes sense.

Thanks

Regards,

 

[KRS]

This is not addressed to either of the above two posters but to the rest of the Forum:

If the brahminical lineage is through the father that means that irrespective of who the father marries, the child will be a brahmin. So, it should not matter.

Then it would matter who the mother marries. Because if she chooses someone other than a brahmin, then the offspring will definitely be not a brahmin.

This is why in Jewish culture, for example, they do not care (although they would very much like to stay within) who the girl marries, because the lineage is matriarchical. But they care much about their boy's partners.

Just the reverse of what one would think!

Pranams,
KRS