Sri Padmanabhaswamy Temple Treasure.

[Brahmanyan]

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It is gratifying to note that Kerala Chief Minister Mr.Oommen Chandy has made it clear that the treasure trove unearthed at Sri Padmanabhaswami Temple, Thiruvananthapuram, belongs to the Temple and it would be protected within the Temple itself. "The wealth belongs to the temple since it was offered to Lord Sree Padmanabha" he said.

"The State Government is committed to providing adequate security to the treasure trove and the state police would be entrusted with the task. It is the duty of the State Government and the people of Kerala to protect the treasure trove,'' said Chandy."

Former temple affairs minister and CPM leader G Sudhakaran echoed his views. “Neither the temple affairs department, nor the government should touch the antique property,” he said.

While majority of Hindu community wants the treasure to be left with the temple, Retired Judge V.R.Krishna Iyer, however, has stated that the wealth should be used for eliminating poverty. "A national trust to be formed to manage it" He said.

But after the recent exposure of scams, the question is, do we really tap all the national wealth and use it wholly for the welfare of the nation?

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[DrBarani]

VRK must have gone insane. (1) Governments are inherently untrustworthy. (2) Treasure has great heritage value, but putting a rupee value to it is wrong. (3) poverty exists in the country because of criminals like Telecom Raja. Not because we don't have resources in the country.

Even the temple shouldn't be allowed to sell it away for money unless it can show it badly needs funds, which I doubt. The property needs to be showcased like a museum and devotees allowed to see what was generously offered by their ancestors to the temple.

 

[tks]

If they form a trust they need to involve people from outside - Like President Carter or someone neutral who can help oversee and assure that the money is not stolen by the politicians and thieves

 

[C RAVI]

If they form a trust they need to involve people from outside - Like President Carter or someone neutral who can help oversee and assure that the money is not stolen by the politicians and thieves

Sri tks,

IMO, this would not be the right move. There is no guarantee that any one neutral, assigned to ensure safe custody would not get trapped by the shinangans of corrupted politicians. Politicians have their own way in anything they wish for.

I am of the same opinion as that of Dr.Barani.

 

[zebra16]

While majority of Hindu community wants the treasure to be left with the temple, Retired Judge V.R.Krishna Iyer, however, has stated that the wealth should be used for eliminating poverty. "A national trust to be formed to manage it" He said.

But after the recent exposure of scams, the question is, do we really tap all the national wealth and use it wholly for the welfare of the nation?

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Now that the immense wealth is discovered, my fear is that it will be ultimately lost sooner or later. Because the items are antiques, I fear the international crooks syndicate to spread its tentacles and sooner or later we will find that the originals replaced by "fakes" and the knowledge of substitution coming to light after only years or decades. We may also be probably to unfortunate to hear that certain items could be slated to go under hammer at "sothby's" after some criminal gangs decamp with booty.

As regards utilising the proceeds for poverty reduction, the find so far is about 1.5 times NRYEGA scheme allocation for the last year. It would be interesting to know how many people are brought above the poverty line, from budget allocation, on a permanent basis, rather than on temporary basis like Food for work programme etc., national highway construction projects etc. where the employment seldom exceeds 2-3 years. After the project is complete the poor are back to square one. Then only we can know whether the proposal is really useful for poverty alleviation.

As regards handling of the treasure by trustees, it is anybody's guess as to what would be the integrity of the trustees in future. The Satya Saibaba type of trustees do not inspire any confidence going by the newspaper reports.

It would be a huge task to keep such precious items under security for ever, as we do not when a particular person or a group of persons may fall for greed.

In fact I fear vandalism of other old temples by miscreants in the hope of striking the booty.

Regards

narayan

 

[DrBarani]

If they form a trust they need to involve people from outside - Like President Carter or someone neutral who can help oversee and assure that the money is not stolen by the politicians and thieves

Having spent over a decade in US, I do have considerable admiration and respect for former President Jimmy Carter. However, I think there are very trustworthy people right here in India. I trust Dr.Abdul Kalam more than Jimmy Carter.

The Temple has its own trust and it will take care of the wealth. Why shouldn't it? What if the Treasure was just 100 grams of gold? Would anyone think twice before giving it to the Temple trust?

I am glad this happened in Kerala. If this was Tamil Nadu, by now the Department of Temples (Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Department) would have sent their goons and confiscated everything.

The law of the land says if someone found treasure in their backyard, they own it. Lets apply the law regardless of the value. Temple Trust keeps it. Do we trust the temple trust? That is not a reasonable question. The temple is already rich. Does the trustworthyness evaporate simply because more richness was found?

 

[happyhindu]

Wonder why did not the Travancore royal family cash on it. They were the patrons of Padmanabha Swamy temple for generations. Surely atleast in the pre-independent years they must have known about the hidden treasure.

As devout "Padmanabha Dasas", i suppose the travancore royals thot God's wealth belongs to God. Even now the Nair Service Society is saying treasure must remain with the temple. It appears Oomen Chandy agrees for now.

Maybe its in the design of God to keep the wealth stagnant for now. But hopefully in future God will ensure the treasure is put to good use (while retaining rare artefacts)....to clear outstanding state debt, start industries, generate employment, create wealth-flow...

What's the whole point in keeping temple wealth stagnant -- the kings anyways used temple for revenue generation and cash flow.....but wait, what if the travancore royals lay claim to it...in fact they can rightfully claim a portion of it (it can be contested in court). So are the travancore royals going to beat bill gates to the forbes richest next..

 

[tks]

Having spent over a decade in US, I do have considerable admiration and respect for former President Jimmy Carter. However, I think there are very trustworthy people right here in India. I trust Dr.Abdul Kalam more than Jimmy Carter.

The Temple has its own trust and it will take care of the wealth. Why shouldn't it? What if the Treasure was just 100 grams of gold? Would anyone think twice before giving it to the Temple trust?

I am glad this happened in Kerala. If this was Tamil Nadu, by now the Department of Temples (Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Department) would have sent their goons and confiscated everything.

The law of the land says if someone found treasure in their backyard, they own it. Lets apply the law regardless of the value. Temple Trust keeps it. Do we trust the temple trust? That is not a reasonable question. The temple is already rich. Does the trustworthyness evaporate simply because more richness was found?

Good point - I am sure there are statesmen deserving great respect right in India. I think when the amount is large it is best to have a few statesmen from around the world for appropriate checks.

The temple trust is made up of human beings. Large sums of money attracts criminals who can use any tactic (blackmail or otherwise) of key people to find a way to loot. If all that is needed is to keep the treasure within the temple I am sure simple arrangements might suffice.

If there was an intent to 'invest' in human beings to uplift the nation such as investments in new R&D, hospitals, education, new technology for poor farmers etc then there will be a need for stronger oversight. In the end the temple has to decide what is in their best interest - to spend on investments or keep the treasure stored

 

[DrBarani]

Wonder why did not the Travancore royal family cash on it. They were the patrons of Padmanabha Swamy temple for generations. Surely atleast in the pre-independent years they must have known about the hidden treasure.

As devout "Padmanabha Dasas", i suppose the travancore royals thot God's wealth belongs to God. Even now the Nair Service Society is saying treasure must remain with the temple. It appears Oomen Chandy agrees for now.

Maybe its in the design of God to keep the wealth stagnant for now. But hopefully in future God will ensure the treasure is put to good use (while retaining rare artefacts)....to clear outstanding state debt, start industries, generate employment, create wealth-flow...

What's the whole point in keeping temple wealth stagnant -- the kings anyways used temple for revenue generation and cash flow.....but wait, what if the travancore royals lay claim to it...in fact they can rightfully claim a portion of it (it can be contested in court). So are the travancore royals going to beat bill gates to the forbes richest next..

Temples were given both gold and agriculture land for sustaining themselves. The land was often leased to local farmers who used to pay some of their produce to the temple. It was an excellent self-support system.

I disagree with the notion that temple property should be used for 'reducing debt, increasing employment' type of plans that belong to the government. If you reduce the Government Debt, it only gives green signal to the politicians to create more debt and in ten years time the debt will be back but the treasure would have vanished.

Once donated, Royals or anyone else, do not have a right to reclaim their gift.

All I hope is, keep Government out of it! Government often the public enemy no.1 in these matters.

 

[DrBarani]

Yes, it is a good idea to add a few popular faces to the temple trust and add confidence to the people.

And as Narayan rightly pointed out, it is going to be a wild-wild-west type treasure hunt in the million temples around the country...

 

[happyhindu]

Temples were given both gold and agriculture land for sustaining themselves. The land was often leased to local farmers who used to pay some of their produce to the temple. It was an excellent self-support system.

I disagree with the notion that temple property should be used for 'reducing debt, increasing employment' type of plans that belong to the government. If you reduce the Government Debt, it only gives green signal to the politicians to create more debt and in ten years time the debt will be back but the treasure would have vanished.

Once donated, Royals or anyone else, do not have a right to reclaim their gift.

All I hope is, keep Government out of it! Government often the public enemy no.1 in these matters.

Well, i suppose the old model of kings getting temples build as the focal point of cash flow, revenue generation, settlement creation, etc, cannot apply under a democracy. But then the wealth does belong to the state (government) and hopefully something good for the benefit of all will come out, atleast from some part of the wealth (maybe even tourism - -tourists coming to see the treasures can generate cash flow).

I very much agree with the rest of your post. Cudn't help laughing at the lines in blue. Our politicians..sigh...but then you wud wonder why Ramdev Baba and Anna Hazare are not creating political parties. Our bad luck.

 

[subbudu1]

It is gratifying to note that Kerala Chief Minister Mr.Oommen Chandy has made it clear that the treasure trove unearthed at Sri Padmanabhaswami Temple, Thiruvananthapuram, belongs to the Temple and it would be protected within the Temple itself. "The wealth belongs to the temple since it was offered to Lord Sree Padmanabha" he said.

"The State Government is committed to providing adequate security to the treasure trove and the state police would be entrusted with the task. It is the duty of the State Government and the people of Kerala to protect the treasure trove,'' said Chandy."

Former temple affairs minister and CPM leader G Sudhakaran echoed his views. “Neither the temple affairs department, nor the government should touch the antique property,” he said.

While majority of Hindu community wants the treasure to be left with the temple, Retired Judge V.R.Krishna Iyer, however, has stated that the wealth should be used for eliminating poverty. "A national trust to be formed to manage it" He said.

But after the recent exposure of scams, the question is, do we really tap all the national wealth and use it wholly for the welfare of the nation?

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

I would agree with V R Krishna Iyer but time is not right. There is far too much corruption in Government right now, Kerala definately being a good example of a corrupt state. Safeguard the treasure and leave the issue for now.

 

[happyhindu]

Hats off to the family of Thirunal Marthanda Varma --

Lord Vishnu's royal servants guard his riches - The Times of India

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka in #2
It is quite conceivable that a good portion of "devotees offerings" is from Black Marketers and/or Thieves..
Recently, Puttaparthi Sai Baba had Crores of cash and several kilo grams of precious metals - gold and silver - in his Personal Vault, most of which could very well be from Black Marketers and/or Thieves.
Is it fair for the Gods and Godmen to encourage Black Marketers and Thieves in a poor country like India?
Engay Neethi Ayya?

Dear Yamaka,
There is no use asking here ‘Engay neethi Ayya?’ God and Godmen do not ask devotees to engage in black-marketing and stealing to give them the offerings. It is politicians like our great Spectrum King and his Mentors who are the culprits. So your question is to be addressed to them. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Yamaka in#5
I agree about this particular Padmanabha Temple.. then, how about the temples like Tirupathi and at Puttaparuthi?
It's interesting that this Temple was once well attended by the "rich" devotees, and still became not so popular in modern times. Probably, some competition from other temples nearby..

Who said it was well attended then and not now? It is not very popular among devotees who want to flaunt their money/power and do a quickie when it comes to darshan. You have to follow a certain dress code-whoever you may be-and you cannot have any special darshan-again whoever you may be. The priest will not touch you whatever you may be offering. If by mistake you touch him he will immediately leave the duty post , go have a bath and then come back to continue his duty. Only the king of travancore has a few special privileges-like the darshan in privacy without any one elswe present or the right to prostrate before the deity on the stone slab immediately outside the sanctum. Because of these restrictions there are no crowds like you find in Tirupati. I have seen the crowds only during the two Sabarimala seasons when there is usually a long queue. In all other seasons you can just walk in, have darshan and return.

Yamaka in#9
Public Radio International (an arm of NPR) interviewed one Editor of The Hindu from Trivandrum this evening; he said,
" The treasures buried under the Padmanabha Temple could be the assets of Maharaja of Travancore, who buried that to hide it from his political enemies... None of the media person has been allowed to see those materials in the vault...it could be worth billions of dollars, but nobody knows for sure". My guess is not much of ordinary devotees' offerings are there!

The travancore dynasty had kings who surrendered the state they ruled to Sri Padmanabha and took a vow to rule the country only as a servant of Padmanabha(Padmanabha dasa). This particular vow-taking is reenacted even today during the annual festival in the temple when the King places a sword along with its scabbard at the foot of the deity and takes it back in a symbolic ritual. This, though the king no longer rules the state. This is the reason the king is held in esteem by every one in the City of Trivandrum. The kings could have taken away the jewels to their personal custody any time if he had wanted as he had complete control over the temple all these years(centuries). The fact that they did not do it is a measure of the quality of this dynasty and its devotion to the deity. Compare this with the Nizams and nawabs and Thakurs. We keep hearing about the descendents of the members of the harem of these people still fighting court battles to prove their claims to the estate left behind by these Ns, Ns and Ts

#Nara in #6
Dear Y, I join you in your criticisms of private religious Mathams, but there is a difference between temples and maThams, especially HRCE temples. While there may be some irregularities here and there, in the most part, gross corruption in rich temples is not prevalent in as much as such temples are under public eye. The riches of Thiruppathi temple is in the public domain and are spent for the public welfare.
I may be wrong, not sure, however, IMO, Thiruppathi temple finances are better managed than Sri Rangam.

The moment Government enters the picture the temple administration suffers. It becomes a hotbed of corruption and unabashed profiteering. The Tirupathi Temple remains comparatively free from this evil because it is managed by a Board consisting of devotees and IAS babus.People have faith and fear in the deity there. Moreover it is in Andhra Pradesh. Tamilnadu is ruled by Atheists who make fun of Hindu faith/Gods day in and day out. So temple administration is treated as a hand maid to achieve their private goals. In Tirupathi God is alert and is standing! In Srirangam they have already pulled his leg!! So he has taken the lying down posture. In Palani they have scrapped away the deity’s leg to sell the material(rasayanam) as a powerful aphrodesiac. We can add many more items to this list like Diamond Vel of Tiruchendur, the one rupee rent on many prime properties in Madurai belonging to the Meenakshi and Azhagar temples there etc etc.

I don't agree with K that Thiruvandhapuram Padmanabha Swami temple is not popular. It is one of the 108 Dhivya Desams for Sri Vasihnavas. It is not as popular as Sri Rangam or Thiruppathi, but it is a well known temple attracting the faithful from all over India. I do agree with K on why people of an earlier era saw a need to hide such a huge treasure in underground vaults -- 4-foot gold figurine studded with precious stones -- amazing. I am sure the artistry is quite amazing too. No wonder the find is so widely reported in international media, this morning I saw Al Jazera reporting it.

The temple in TVm is not as popular as Tirupati or Palani. Popularity has nothing to do with it is divya desam status among SVs. SVs are a microscopic minority in the devout population. It has become popular only because of the crowds visiting during the Sabarimala seasons. The treasure must have been hidden during the invasion by the marauding Tipu Sultan (Who reached the city’s outskirts) and then kept as a secret. It is remarkable that even the British who ruled the country did not know the existence of this treasure.

Renuka in#7
Dear Nara anna,
I dont know much about India's management and inventory on finances and property of temples and ashrams but is there a similar styled fashion for churches and mosques cos when I was in college there were many Seventh Day Adventists whose medical seats were sponsered by their SDA church.And Private medical seats come with a real high capitation.I used to wonder how these churches managed?
I was just wondering?
Can you shed some light here cos I really dont know?
And Nara in#8
Renu, I have no earthly idea. I know Catholic Church is rich beyond human imagination, so are some Protestant churches. I also know there are some evangelical denominations that run mega churches that relieve the faithful of their hard earned money in exchange for "spiritual" benefits, not to mention "saving" the gullible and the long oppressed in the developing world.
But, that is the nature of all religious faiths, IMO, to deceive and exploit the gullible, in a sincere or insincere attempt to "save" them.

Every religion has these problems. I know a church body in South India which is having the largest protestant following where a Synod member sold church properties to his close relatives at throw away prices. A court case was about to be filed when people were persuaded not to wash the dirty linen in the public(particularly since it will become known to the donors in Europe and US from where the church was receiving large donations from members of these communities with disturbed conscience for having committed unpardonable sins.They were donating in the belief that they were washing away their sins by their donations which will redeem Indian masses from the paganism and sure hell thus increasing the number of sheeps in the herd of faithfuls) The man was removed from the Synod and the matter ended there leaving the property in his hands. But church management is better than the HRCE management of temples. With HRCE the management lies with that nebulous aggregate called people’s Government whereas in the case of churches the management lies with the local laity represented by members elected by ballot and the church represented by the local parish priest and the Bishop’s representative. The medical colleges run by the Churches are all called Minority Institutions and are Holy Cows. They can not be touched even by the Government. It is usually those members of the laity who can influence the Church at the highest level who get their wards admitted into these institutions.All others have to pay a hefty capitation fee.

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

The news of Poojya Maharaja Shri Marthanda Varma is getting more and more interesting. The ageing king seems to gone to some length to get all the inventory done so that no one will covet the wealth. To get the inventory started, the Maharaja's lawyer Sundararaja Iyengar actually filed a court petition:

Treasure findings: Travancore Royal family elated | The Asian Age

My humble pranams to the feet of Poojya Maharaja Shri Marthanda Varma. Hard to beleive such people exist today. He is the greatest wealth of Kerala, far and above all his treasures.

 

[kunjuppu]

Y,

in reply to your post in another thread on the same issue, i believe that this temple wealth has been donated, not by the people, but the royal travancore house, over the centuries.

from what i have heard in my family lore, there are 'secrets' which were shared only between a few, and it is quite possible that over the centuries some of the 'secrets' just failed to get passed on.

after all, it takes one 'wrong' doing of a child, for the father to disown him. here, with the royal family, intrigues developed by sir CP Ramaswamy Iyer (who wanted to declare travancore an independent country) caused huge dissensions in the royal household.

so, i think, this wealth, as it stands, is innocent.

what to do with it? hopefully for the public good. transparent. honest. free hospitals is a good start, now that kerala has close to 100% literacy.

definitely an autonomous board, out of interference from the kerala government is needed.

 

[srinikarthik]

Finally Sense prevails although due to fear of political backlash. The riches will remain with the temple.

Let temple riches be where they?re: Chandy - The Times of India

Although I second Kanchi Sankaracharya Jayendra Saraswathi when he says that the riches belong to the royal family of travancore. They have been the guardians for the temple for ages.

Temple treasure belongs to royal family: Sankaracharya | The Asian Age

 

[Yamaka]

"Dear Yamaka,
There is no use asking here ‘Engay neethi Ayya?’ God and Godmen do not ask devotees to engage in black-marketing and stealing to give them the offerings. It is politicians like our great Spectrum King and his Mentors who are the culprits. So your question is to be addressed to them. You are barking up the wrong tree." -- Raju said.

Dear Raju:

Is it your observation that Thieves and Black-Marketers don't offer liberally to the deities?

I have heard many of these people saying, "I prayed to this God, and told HIM that half of the bounty will be given to Him, if only He helps me in this endeavor".

Spectrum "Scandal" is just in a very preliminary stage... it's quite possible nothing will come out of this to your grief!

Because Arun Shouri - a BJP - has said "Raja sold what Govt of India DID NOT own in the first place".

The issue to me is whether A. Raja & Co got any kickbacks in this 2G transaction or not.... so far what we hear is the innuendo, conjecture and speculation from political enemies (like yourself!)... that's all, nothing more. Nothing has been established as a matter of law.

Poor CBI is working reluctantly to satisfy the ego of some of the inept personalities in India's Supreme Court.

Wait & watch.

 

[Yamaka]

"But after the recent exposure of scams, the question is, do we really tap all the national wealth and use it wholly for the welfare of the nation? -- Brahmanyan asked.

Sir:

I take the side of the Judge.. Scams are there, for sure... we need to bring Sunlight to sanitize all the pathologies in the System... also, I strongly believe that we must tap all the national wealth and use it for the welfare of the nation.

Kerala State can use the resources to improve its Infrastructure, Hospitals, Schools and Universities, which will bring better dividends in the future.

Keeping the assets AS IS, is just a humongous waste, IMO.

Cheers.

 

[zebra16]

Sirs,

Posters are rather freely giving their opinion as to how the wealth is to be utilised, presumably by Government. It may be beneficial to note that there is a law called Indian Treasure Trove Act, 1878 which defines what is treasure and the circumstances under which the Government becomes a de-facto owner of treasures etc.

According to some legal experts the wealth found does not come under the category for treasure under the terms of the above Act. The wealth belongs to Lord Padmanabha, who is a "legal person" under Indian law for title suits etc.

So no need to jump the gun prematurely.

Regaards,

narayan

 

[Nara]

....Because Arun Shouri - a BJP - has said "Raja sold what Govt of India DID NOT own in the first place".

This is off topic, sorry B sir, but Y, do you agree with Arun Shouri that the 2G spectrum did not belong to the Govt. of India, the legitimate representative of all of India? If not GOI, who owns it? Is it free for anybody to help himself/herself?

The issue to me is whether A. Raja & Co got any kickbacks in this 2G transaction or not..

The shell game of phantom companies, loans for no reason, layers of camouflage, history of corruption -- doen't look very good. Presumption of innocence is in a court of law, the rules of the court of public opinion are different, and the verdict is already in.

Considering the scale of it all I hope the truth comes out.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

I understand that the Supreme Court, in its normal procedure of adjudicating a private petition by some one, has ordered to find the inventory of this temple's assets including what's in the cellars.

They will decide who is the legal owner or custodian of this wealth...

I am interested now in knowing who petitioned the SC and what do they claim here?

Any idea, please?

 

[srinikarthik]

The erstwhile royal family of Travancore, which maintains the temple, believes that opening chamber B would be a bad omen. A royal family source said many legends were attached to the temple and that chamber B has a model of a snake on the main door.

I hope the greedy govt. listens to this.


Omen legend halts temple stocktaking - Hindustan Times

 

[Yamaka]

This is off topic, sorry B sir, but Y, do you agree with Arun Shouri that the 2G spectrum did not belong to the Govt. of India, the legitimate representative of all of India? If not GOI, who owns it? Is it free for anybody to help himself/herself?

The shell game of phantom companies, loans for no reason, layers of camouflage, history of corruption -- doen't look very good. Presumption of innocence is in a court of law, the rules of the court of public opinion are different, and the verdict is already in.

Considering the scale of it all I hope the truth comes out.

Cheers!

Dear N:

This is off topic for this Thread, I agree.

What's the so-called National Telecom Policy 94, NTP 99 and what Arun Shouri, Maran and Raja did during their tenure all very confusing and not detailed by the press in India.

What Arun Shouri meant was that Govt of India should give this asset free of cost to the people so that the cost of wireless usage must be as low as possible: in deed, as Sibal said, in India it costs about 18 paisa per min of wireless usage, the lowest in the entire world... which tells me that the Policy NTP94 has already worked.

The humongous number that CAG came up with was terribly misleading to say the least... as Dr. MMS said the figure will vary wildly depending on the assumptions you make for all the variable involved... it could be Rs. 0 to Rs Several lakh crocres... the public is terribly mislead by this figure. And, this is strictly a paper loss or a phantom loss and not REAL loss in the conventional sense.

About what exactly Raja did as far as "kick-backs" is still not known... and one important figure committed suicide.

Wait & watch.

Cheers.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I am unable to understand the silence of Shri.Sangom.I will be happy to see his views in this thread.