Saguni....

[narayanee]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

....அவை கூடியது..

அப்போது சகுனி தருமரை நோக்கி.. 'தருமரே....உமது குலப்பெருமையை உயர்த்தியுள்ளீர்..இப்போது சூதாட்டத்தில் உங்கள் ஆற்றலைக் காண்போமா?' என்றார்.

தருமரோ...'சதி செய்து என்னை சூதுக்கு அழைத்தீர்..இதில் பெருமையுண்டா..? அறம் உண்டா? வீரம் உண்டா? எங்கள் நல்வாழ்வை நீ விரும்பவில்லை என நான் அறிவேன்.இச்சூதாட்டம் மூலம் எங்களை அழிக்க நினைக்கிறாய்' என்றார்.

உடனே சகுனி சிரித்தான். 'உன்னை மாமன்னன் என்று அழைத்து விட்டேன்.பண்டை மன்னர்கள் சூதாடவில்லையா...அச்சம் கொள்ளாதே...நீ சூதாட்டத்தில் வெல்வாய்..வெற்றி பெறுவது உன் இயல்பு..வா ஆடுவோம்..'என்றான்.

தருமர் பதிலுக்கு ..'சான்றோர் சூதாட்டத்தை விஷம் என கண்டித்துள்ளனர்...ஆதலின் இந்த சூதினை வேண்டேன்...என்னை வஞ்சித்து..என் செல்வத்தைக்கொள்வோர் எனக்கு துன்பம் தருபவர் அல்லர்,,நான்கு வேதங்களையே அழித்தவர் ஆவர்...பணிவுடன் கேட்டுக்கொள்கிறேன்..வேண்டாம் சூது ...' என்றார்.

சகுனி...மகாபாரதத்தில் நான் உற்றுக் கவனித்த பாத்திரம்.

உடனே நினைவுக்கு வந்தது அமெரிக்கா...

என்னைப் பொறுத்தவரை, இன்றைய கால கட்டத்தில், அமெரிக்கா தான் சகுனி.

இன்றைய பதட்டங்களுக்கு மூல காரணம் அமெரிக்கா தான் ,என்று உறுதியாக நம்புவள்.

அதைப் பற்றி எழுத இருக்கிறேன்..

(தொடரும்)

In the assembly hall, Saguni invites Dharmar to play gambling and tease him to participate without hesitation. Dharmar knew it was conspiracy and he was being trapped...

http://bagavathgeethai.blogspot.com/2009/03/25_09.html

Saguni, one of the important characters in Mahabaratham...I used to read about him with rapt attention , a lot...

Immediately I thought of America.

Yes, to me America is Saguni...

(to be continued...)

 

[RVR]

Whether we like it or not, we have to accept USA is the biggest economic power in the world. There are lot good points about America like, free society, freedom of enterprise, world class research and educational institutions.

However there are minus points like, no proper regulation of Financial institutions which has resulted in the global economic crisis, big brother attitude with other nations etc.

Every country has both plus as well as minus points. Let us not degrade any country.

 

[narayanee]

அமெரிக்கா

மனித உரிமையின் மொத்தக் குத்தகைத்தாரர்.ஆனால், இவர்கள் நாட்டிலேயே தனிநபர் தொலைபேசி ஒட்டுக் கேட்கப்படுகின்றது.

மலிவு விலையில் மூளையைக் கொள்முதல் செய்ய இந்தியா.மலிவு விலையில் பொருள்களைக் கொள்முதல் செய்ய சீனா.மலிவு விலையில் கூலிகளைக் கொள்முதல் செய்ய மெக்சிகன் மற்றும் கறுப்பர்கள்.இவர்கள் பல்லக்கைத் தூக்க, அதன் மேலே இந்த கனவான்கள் சவாரி செய்யும் மாயம் என்ன?

உலகின் தலை சிறந்த மூளைகள், விஞ்ஞானம், நிதித்துறை நிபுணம்,ஆயுத உற்பத்தியில் உச்ச ஸ்தானத்தில்இருந்தும் இதன் நிலை இன்று எங்கே?

இன்று அமெரிக்கா படுபாதாளத்தில் விழுந்து கொண்டிருந்தும், டாலரை உலக வர்த்தக நாணயமாக இருக்க என்ன தகுதி என்று உலக அரங்கில் விவாதிக்கப்பட என்ன காரணம்?

இதுவே ஒரு இந்தியாவோ, அல்லது சீனாவோ அமெரிக்காவைப் போல் இன்று கீழே விழுந்திருந்தால், அமெரிக்கா சும்மா இருக்குமா?

வினை விதைத்தார்கள்.இப்போது அறுவடை செய்கிறார்கள்..

முற்பகல் செய்யின், பிற்பகல் விளையும்.

அது இந்த சகுனி விஷயத்தில் உண்மை தானே?

America. Champion of human rights and notorious for telepone taping of its own citizens in its own soil!

India is there to provide excellent brains at cheap cost, China for cheap manufactured goods and Mexicans and Africans for cheap labor;with these palanquin bearers, this american gentleman goes voyage enjoying his time .

Citadel of best brains, scientists, financial experts,and the first in arms manufacturing!So what? why it fell down from its much coveted place and position?

Given that, how come, the dollar is questioned as trade currency throughout the world, today?

Assuming India or China has messed up things like US, will it keep quiet?

Yesterday they sow the seeds of sin!Now they are harvesting!

Is it not ?

 

[RVR]

Since America is a free country, they procure cheap brain power from India, cheap goods from China and Cheap labour from Mexico & Blacks.

Inspite of all the above, they are not at all competitive in most of the products. Their trade deficit is very very large.

Local americans live beyond their means. Budget deficit of the Government is very high.

Only manufacturing they are doing is printing of dollars.

They are doing moral policing of the entire world.

I also feel that dollar supremacy will not last long.

Unless they do major break through in Bio technology or other fields, they will be limping for years. The economy will not revive.

 

[KRS]

Dear narayanee Ji,

I have been living in the U,S, for the past forty years and let me categorically say that your assessment of this country is completely off the mark.

First, this country is not 'notorious' about 'telephone taping' of it's own citizens. Can you give examples to back up this bold statement? The only way they can tap their citizens' phones is that they have solid evidence to do so and get a federal judge to sign the order. And after 9/11, any emergency tapping of the phones before getting the Judge's orders is allowed if the call originates in a foreign soil and the NSA suspects that there are enemies of the U.S. on that end of the phone. Even though this tapping can be done on an emergency basis, it still needs a federal Judge's approval to use the info.

Regarding using others talents, America's heritage is as a melting pot. As much as it 'exploits' the talents of others (be it English, German, French, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Mexican etc.) every community has prospered enormously under this system. Show me any other single country that embraces the talents of others and make them it's proud citizens!

America is the originator of 'Globalization'. Most of the manufacturing around the world are 'owned' by American companies. To say that America has 'fallen down' on these sectors is to speak from ignorance about how wealth is created across the globe and who controlls the monetary markets.

Dollar, for the foreseeable future will be the world currency standard. There is no other currency that comes close.

Trade deficits nowadays are created by globalization. But one needs to understand that there is reverse flow of wealth in the form of capital through globalization in to the USA, which does not show up in these deficits.

USA is still the destination for the investment money from around the world. Hence, even though the fiscal deficits are high nowadays, they can be covered by these investments. But I bet the deficits will be whittled away within a decade.

The only bad thing that happened was the politically sanctioned artificial ballooning of the housing market and the associated derivatives that were not adequately controlled. But today both political parties understand that mistake and hence the bailouts.

Only people who do not understand the character of this country and the underlying culture that supports it, will bet against it. People who have done so in the past have consistently lost their shirts.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Venkataramani Ji,

I completely disagree with you. Please see my posting above.

In my forty years of living here, I have gone through worse economic conditions here. Every time this country has come back stronger.

The fundamental character and the drive of this country has not changed.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri Venkataramani Ji,

I completely disagree with you. Please see my posting above.

In my forty years of living here, I have gone through worse economic conditions here. Every time this country has come back stronger.

The fundamental character and the drive of this country has not changed.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sri KRS ji,

I am reading articles almost daily that dollar supremacy is not going to last long. Even today I read an article in Telegraph, London that leading global bank HSBC is moving out of dollars.

HSBC bids farewell to dollar supremacy - Telegraph

Paul Krugman and other eminent economists are also warning on similar lines. Most of the economists predict that America will be limping like Japan in 90's. Even global consulting firm Mckensey says revival of US economy this time is going to take very long time.

Some people say worst is over. Many others say worst is behind us.

I am sure America will come of the crisis because it is a free society with free enterprise and all that.

My earnest feeling is that if they make quick inventions in Bio-technology, Nano-technology and other similar fields, they will come out faster. Other wise it is going to be a long drawn process with the present large deficits both on budget as well trade.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

i completely agree with krs' assessment of the u.s.a.

living in canada, we always see a constant stream of our best and brightest move on to the u.s. for better opportunities.

except, for canadians, there is not much of a culture shock.

this includes an astounding percentage of 2nd generation TB children!

except, in the case of canadians, they prefer to keep their canadian passports for travel purposes.

a close relative of mine by marriage, who is jewish, remarked yesterday..

the u.s.a would be the perfect country in the world if only

- it had universal (free) health care like canada
- controlled the murder rate and violence.

among all the nationalities i have met, including indians and canadians, overall, i have found americans more open, friendly and generous hearted than any other nationality.

the readers, must not confuse the american society and people, with the american government.

the u.s. government has as many or more critics at home, than abroad.

thank you.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

Please read this WSJ article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123780272456212885.html

Let China try to float their currency against the $. Their economy will collapse because of their investment holdings mainly in $.

There are quite a number of far left economists in the USA who do not like U.S. exceptionalism and want a 'global government' always want the $'s supremacy to go away. Paul Krugman is a leader in this 'global government' thought. His analysis is always tinged with a political stance and hence I do not give much credence to his conclusions as being factual.

Regarding the two 'imperfections' in the U.S., you have cited:

1. There are perhaps about 11 million American citizens who do not have health care insurance because they can not afford it (not catastrophic health care because if they go to an emergency room at hospitals with life threatening condition, they will have to be catered to irrespective of their ability to pay, and even if they do not have emergency conditions, they will have to be administered by the non profit hospitals) as opposed to 200 million who have. So, this is just a storm in the tea pot. The only real concern is the increase in medical costs versus inflation. And most of it is directly attributable to the Government as they artificially keep the Medicare/Medicaid payments to the service providers such as Physicians. So, the rest of us are subsidizing this with increased costs. The main concern with the Govt. take over is the rationing of health care. This is against the free choice mentality of the americans, who do not favour social engineering by directing health care $s from the elderly to the younger population, in the name of Universal coverage. The current sentiment is to control costs through opening up of health insurance offerings (now they are controlled by each state) across the states and reforming the tort system.

2. Yes, there is more violence in the U.S. as compared to some other western countries. But if you look at this closely, you would realize that most of the violent crimes happen in inner cities, such as black on black crimes. New York city for example, as recently as 20 years ago was called the crime capital of the USA, but today the crime rate there has considerably fallen thanks to 'active commun ity policing' policy implemented by Giuliani and continued by Bloomberg.

USA has many faults, but, in my opinion, lots of them are the by products of a fairly free country.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

1. There are perhaps about 11 million American citizens who do not have health care insurance because they can not afford it (not catastrophic health care because if they go to an emergency room at hospitals with life threatening condition, they will have to be catered to irrespective of their ability to pay, and even if they do not have emergency conditions, they will have to be administered by the non profit hospitals) as opposed to 200 million who have. So, this is just a storm in the tea pot. The only real concern is the increase in medical costs versus inflation. And most of it is directly attributable to the Government as they artificially keep the Medicare/Medicaid payments to the service providers such as Physicians. So, the rest of us are subsidizing this with increased costs. The main concern with the Govt. take over is the rationing of health care. This is against the free choice mentality of the americans, who do not favour social engineering by directing health care $s from the elderly to the younger population, in the name of Universal coverage. The current sentiment is to control costs through opening up of health insurance offerings (now they are controlled by each state) across the states and reforming the tort system.

krs,

without going to further discussion, i would like to say, from a canadian viewpoint, we consider the usa way behind the developed world in terms of availability and affordability of health care to everyone.

we, here in canada, see free healthcare as an entitlement.

we have faults but no one in their right mind, would trade our healthcare system for what is available in the u.s.

finally one example: a very dear friend has been getting cancer treatment at henderson hospital for a year.

his annual bill is $200,000. he has what is considered the best insurance coverage ie 80%. his bill so far from pocket is $40,000. which to me is a steep amount, for getting a disease, through no fault of his.

add to the woe, his wife is now diagnosed with a tumour...

in a similar situation in canada, we would walk in and out of the hospital without a clue as to how much it costs us.

i do appreciate your viewpoint on u.s. healthcare. i have heard it.

also the ads in cnn criticising canadian health care.

i see the current resistance to universal healthcare, as a dog in manger policy by whites against the poor, blacks andhispanics, who would be the overwhelming beneficiaries of the healthcare reform.

in retrospect, it seems to me like cutting off the nose, to spite the face?

regards (as always)

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri kunjuppu Ji,

I agree that the system is not perfect. One of the changes needed is how the 'major medical' such as treatments for cancer etc. are bankrupting the middle class families. And along with not covering pre existing conditions, this needs to be addressed.

Your example of 80% coverage is also partly true. Even there if you seek treatment from the providers network it is usually 100% covered. The 'choice' there for M.D.Andersen (Cancer research hospital), makes one pay 20% on their own. Of course this depends on individual choice of policies offered. At work, there are plethora of choices and depending on one's age and risk, one can select from a variety of policies. Some of them are HMO choices, which pay 100%.

Regarding covering the poor, there is Medicaid and the Childrens insurance that are free to cover the very poor. The only people who fall through the cracks are the 'working poor', who - you are correct - are the working poor. There is consensus on covering these people in both political sides. But the Democarats want to nationalize the whole system to cover 11 million, while the Republicans want to give them tax credits and other subsidies to make it affordable.

The problem with socialized medicine is that it comes at a cost to advancements in medicine and the quality of the service providers. Once the government gets hold of it, then rationing is unavoidable. Many a Canadian and patients from other countries routinely populate some of our best hospitals for treatment of some horriffic diseases.

If one looks at the life expectancy after almost all cancers, US has usually double the number of life expectancy after treatment, compared to any western nation, including Canada.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

The driving force behind Shakuni was revenge. The driving force behind USA is profit. 95% of the wealth of US is owned by just 1% of Americans. And the US congress is bought and paid for by these 1% of Americans. The interests of these 1% of Americans drive both the domestic and foreign policy agenda of the USA. There is a nauseous nexus among corporate interests, politicians, and main-stream media in the U.S. The common man is simply a pawn to be manipulated.

US spends about 2.4 trillion dollars a year on healthcare, about $8000 per person. Canada spends about $4000 per person and they cover everyone. In the U.S. more than 40 million people are not covered. US ranks some 37th in health outcomes.

The reforms being suggested will cost about 850 billion dollars over 10 years. That is about 3.5% of the total healthcare cost. This is going to cover almost everyone. Yet, the most shrill voice against even the modest of reforms being considered comes from the poor people in townhall meetings -- the same people who are most likely to benefit. Why? A single word answer - manipulation.

So, Ms. Narayanee, take aim at the MNC's for whom there is no nationality. Their writ runs large in halls of power in the US and in India too. For example, when western corporate interests want really tiny diamonds to be polished cheaply so that they can be profitably sold in the U.S. market, it is the children of Surat that the Indian government and businessmen exploit. Don't pit Indians against Americans. Think in grander scale. Think of humanity against exploiters.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara Ji,

I should have knon! You said 'The driving force behind USA is profit. 95% of the wealth of US is owned by just 1% of Americans.' Seems to me like you have been reading too much of Michael Moore's propaganda.

Please see this paper beased on data and research:
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
Particularly look at USA data as compared to other countries.


Please see this paper on the invalidity of the ranking of USA in health outcomes:
http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/...nts-the-us-health-care-system/comment-page-1/


What you have posted here is the usual left wing rhetoric. Your cost comparisons are deliberately misleading. You give a $850 Billion as compared to $2.5 trillion. The former is the cost to offer a govt. sponsored insurance OPTION to cover the uncovered and the later is the total health care delivery costs. If you do not mislead, at least you don't know the difference between the two.

Regarding 40 million not covered, even Obama said it is 30 million. So, if you throw away the 20 million not insured because of the youth who do not want it even though they can afford it and the old who haven't signed up for medicare/medicaid, it is about 20 million, including about 12 million illegals. Please get the numbers straight.

Lastly, what is wrong with the MNCs? They create wealth. I don't understand your derision heaped against them. Do you like Communism/Socialism systems by any chance?

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

I should have known!

What is this ?

Seems to me like you have been reading too much of Michael Moore's propaganda.

What is wrong with Michael Moore? I read Micheal Moore, and many others as well. My opinions are formed not based on just one individual. It is based on my reading of facts and what is right.

For heathcare statistics I direct you to WHO report -- it is there for all to see.

What you have posted here is the usual left wing rhetoric.

As opposed to what, right-wing propaganda? Let us not call each other names.

Your cost comparisons are deliberately misleading. You give a $850 Billion as compared to $2.5 trillion. The former is the cost to offer a govt. sponsored insurance OPTION to cover the uncovered and the later is the total health care delivery costs.

Alright, let us take this one at a time.

1. 2.4 trillion is the cost of health-care in the US per year, which is twice per-capita compared to Canada. -- No misleading here!
2. This 2.4 trillion is now covering the healthcare expense of everyone, insured or not insured -- no misleading here as well!
3. The reforms proposed that includes individual mandates, a bonanza for private insurance companies, will cost the government about 85 billion per year. Nothing misleading here.
4. If we continue to spend 2.4 trillion as before (actually, this can be expeceted to come down as the previously uninsured who use expensive care will now be insured and will cost less to care for as they will have access to preventive and early care), and add another 85 billion, funded by the government, to cover most everyone, that is about 3.5% addition to the total healthcare expenditure of the nation. What is so misleading, that too deliberate?

40 million, 20 million, 10 million, whatever ... Mahakavi Bharathi declared, தனி ஒருவனுக்கு உணவில்லையெனில் இந்த ஜகத்தினை அழித்திடுவோம். That is the spirit I admire. Decent healthcare is a fundamental human right. This US government was conceived to promote, among other things, pursuit of happiness. What happiness can one pursue living in constant fear of loosing healthcare?

Those opposed to reform have only one arrow in their quiver, scare the heck out of those who are vulnerable and easy to scare.

Lastly, what is wrong with the MNCs? They create wealth. I don't understand your derision heaped against them. Do you like Communism/Socialism systems by any chance?

You have shown an unique proclivity to brand me from the start. Am I this or am I that. I played along every time. I will play along now as well.

I find unbridled capitalism a bane for society, the kind pursued by huge American corporations epitomized by Enron, WorldCom, and MNCs such as Monsanto. The corporate greed as seen in Wall Street over the last couple of decades is not something one can be proud of. Billions in bonuses for wrecking the economy!!!

MNCs with the help of international financiers such as World Bank and IMF go into poor nations, workout sweetheart deals, wreck the local environment in the name of development, leave the poor poorer and politicians rich, this is the legacy of MNC. Nothing to be proud of.

If this makes me socialist, I am one. Communism has a bad wrap because of bad actors such as Stalin and Mao. So I don't want to be linked to mass murderers like that. But I do like the egalitarian thrust of that ideology. I love humanity. We all are in it together. I don't like it when one group exploits another in the name of progress or in the name of religion, or in the name of anything else.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara, my respomse in 'blue':

Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

What is this ?
I should have known you would post something like this!

What is wrong with Michael Moore? I read Micheal Moore, and many others as well. My opinions are formed not based on just one individual. It is based on my reading of facts and what is right.
But sir, if you have read the paper I referenced above, what you stae is obviously wrong. The only other person I have seen making this absurd claim is Michael Moore. Can you justify your claim? If you read all different opinions, you would have known the fallacy of your claim.

For heathcare statistics I direct you to WHO report -- it is there for all to see.
Yes, read my second reference - it shows clearly the fallacy of WHO report and why it is so.

As opposed to what, right-wing propaganda? Let us not call each other names.
As opposed to no propaganda at all. Your claims have so far been from what I would consider the leftist sources, which I find usually lack proper scholorship.


Alright, let us take this one at a time.

1. 2.4 trillion is the cost of health-care in the US per year, which is twice per-capita compared to Canada. -- No misleading here!
2. This 2.4 trillion is now covering the healthcare expense of everyone, insured or not insured -- no misleading here as well!
3. The reforms proposed that includes individual mandates, a bonanza for private insurance companies, will cost the government about 85 billion per year. Nothing misleading here.
4. If we continue to spend 2.4 trillion as before (actually, this can be expeceted to come down as the previously uninsured who use expensive care will now be insured and will cost less to care for as they will have access to preventive and early care), and add another 85 billion, funded by the government, to cover most everyone, that is about 3.5% addition to the total healthcare expenditure of the nation. What is so misleading, that too deliberate?

Nothing misleading in what you say above. I thought your previous posting left an impression that the cost added to the total care is only 3.5%/ The 3.5% is only the premium. While it may save some costs through the emergency care, the total cost of delivery will be much more as you are adding 30 million (per congress) to the insurance.


40 million, 20 million, 10 million, whatever ... Mahakavi Bharathi declared, தனி ஒருவனுக்கு உணவில்லையெனில் இந்த ஜகத்தினை அழித்திடுவோம். That is the spirit I admire. Decent healthcare is a fundamental human right. This US government was conceived to promote, among other things, pursuit of happiness. What happiness can one pursue living in constant fear of loosing healthcare?
No one questions that it should be a human right to have access to quality health care. But the problem is why do we equate this to a government health care? Why can not the same thing be acheived through private insurance and care with government guidance?

Those opposed to reform have only one arrow in their quiver, scare the heck out of those who are vulnerable and easy to scare.
I am totally opposed to any government take over of health care delivery or insurance. I do not scare anyone with this idea.

You have shown an unique proclivity to brand me from the start. Am I this or am I that. I played along every time. I will play along now as well.
I brand your thought pattern, not you.

I find unbridled capitalism a bane for society, the kind pursued by huge American corporations epitomized by Enron, WorldCom, and MNCs such as Monsanto. The corporate greed as seen in Wall Street over the last couple of decades is not something one can be proud of. Billions in bonuses for wrecking the economy!!!
The role of private enterprise is to create wealth through ethical means - period. It is up to the Corporate Boards to police the management and the SEC and the Government to police the Boards. The problem is in the go-go world of internet bubble and then the housing bubble, the government reperesenting the society was asleep at the switch. Why blame the Corporations for trying to make money while taking riska? Bonuses did not wreck the economy. In fact they are from the compensation perspective are a fraction of the wealth created in most cases.
MNCs with the help of international financiers such as World Bank and IMF go into poor nations, workout sweetheart deals, wreck the local environment in the name of development, leave the poor poorer and politicians rich, this is the legacy of MNC. Nothing to be proud of.
Can you cite examples of this? The only countries I know this is happening are the two bit banana republics. Can you give me examples?
If this makes me socialist, I am one. Communism has a bad wrap because of bad actors such as Stalin and Mao. So I don't want to be linked to mass murderers like that. But I do like the egalitarian thrust of that ideology. I love humanity. We all are in it together. I don't like it when one group exploits another in the name of progress or in the name of religion, or in the name of anything else.
Feeling of humanity is a person's choice. If I want to be selfish and I work for my wealth, no one has any moral right to criticize it. The problem with socialism is they focus on redistributing wealth while not worrying about wealth creation. The only system that is efficient to make the pie bigger is capitalism. But to impose a moral imperative to someone to share their wealth with others is not correct. That will kill the drive to create wealth. This has been the problem with both communism and socialism and this is why they have both failed around the world.
Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[narayanee]

Dear narayanee Ji,


First, this country is not 'notorious' about 'telephone taping' of it's own citizens. Can you give examples to back up this bold statement? The only way they can tap their citizens' phones is that they have solid evidence to do so and get a federal judge to sign the order. And after 9/11, any emergency tapping of the phones before getting the Judge's orders is allowed if the call originates in a foreign soil and the NSA suspects that there are enemies of the U.S. on that end of the phone. Even though this tapping can be done on an emergency basis, it still needs a federal Judge's approval to use the info.............

Regards,
KRS

கே.ஆர்.எஸ்.ஜி, நீங்கள் 40 ஆண்டு காலம் அங்கிருக்கிறீர்கள்.நாங்களெல்லாம் இணைய தளங்கள், செய்தித் தாள்களைக் கொண்டு தான் கணிக்க முடியும்.இது இணைய தளம் காலமாகி விட்டபடியால்,இன்று இவர்களின் கபடத்தனமும் வெட்ட வெளிச்சத்துக்கு வருகிறது.

நீங்கள் சொல்லும் "அன்னிய மண்ணில் ஒருவன் அமெரிக்காவிற்குத் தீங்கிழைக்க நினைத்துப் பேசினால், அவனது பேச்சு ஒட்டு கேட்கப்படும்"என்ற வாதத்தில் எனக்கு முழு நம்பிக்கை இல்லை.ஒரு அவசரத்துக்கு என்று வைத்துக் கொண்டாலும், அதை எப்படி மூன்றாமவர் உறுதி செய்ய முடியும்?நீதிபதியும் அமெரிக்கர்; பாதுகாப்பு அதிகார்களும் அமெரிக்கர்கள்;பேசுபவன் வெளி தேசத்திலிருந்து.இதில், பாரபட்சமற்ற தன்மை எந்த அளவிற்கு நிற்கும்?

அது தான் பார்க்கிறோமே கொண்டானிமோ வளைகுடாவில்,அபு காரிஃபில் பயங்கரவாதிகள் என்று அப்பாவிகளைச் சித்திரவதை செய்வதிலிருந்தே தெரியவில்லையா இவர்கள் தீர்மானங்கள் எந்த அளவிற்கு நியாயமானது என்று?

அந்த நீதிபதியால் எந்த அளவிற்கு அதில் நியாயம் இருக்கிறது என்று நிலை நாட்ட முடியும்?

KSRji, you are 40 year resident in US. Unlike you of course, we depend on internet and news media.

Even if it is emergency like situation, how objective the judgement of NSG will be to project a case for getting permission from federal judge to wire tap?After all we are all witness to the american agencies judgement skill in guantanamo bay and Abu Gharib, where hundreds of innocents were branded as terrorists and being torutured !

In fact I am not fully convinced of your argument regarding wire tap. I will come back to you further and also point by point I am going to argue my case to justfiy my stand how crooked their mentality is!

 

[Siddhanta]

America is called the "Land of Credits". One possible reason was the Gold Rush and people went there and a lot of Gold was found there that was in the 19th century. May be that could be one of the reasons they are prosperous.

Also they are the "Land of Conspiracies"! Because we have a lot of forums arguing on the WTC, whether it was done by Osama Bin Laden or it is done by the US Government itself. The simple logic they provide is, how could planes hitting the top of the tower could bring it down completely unless explosives were planted in the basement.

There are conspiracies regarding the assassination of JFK. JFK was about to reveal secret information regarding the US interaction with the alien entities, before which he was assassinated.

Another conspiracy is that the Apollo 11 and Neil Armstrong landing on the moon was a hoax. The footage is a fake, being shot in a studio like a "movie" and released to the public.

Dwight Eisenhower made contract with alien entities to abduct people of US in return for technology who abduct people and conduct biological and genetic experiments. Leave alone tapping into telephones.


All these are conspiracies and they are not officially established. But that does not mean they are FALSE. Those who does not want their normal living affected, who make a fortune in the US would want to hold these are a lie and the ones raising them are the ones who are affected.


Although these conspiracies seem to be far from being real, if we look closer, it is possible.

Just take an example of our own. The Aryan invasion theory of Max Muller. The city of Dwaraka proved it is fake, but still it is like a conspiracy and people are made to beleive Aryans brought Hinduism to India.

Another example is that of the Universe itself. The Vedas explained the universe, the sun and the planets revolving around it. But the credit to the discovery of the Earth being round goes to the westeners. We have seen the Varaha avatar in which Lord Vishnu holds the earth over his face and it is round. But still all these are ROYALLY suppressed by the west and the rest of the world beleives Hinduism contains false beleifs.

Well, looking at our own example, Conspiracies cannot be dismissed as fake.

 

[RVR]

95% of the wealth of US is owned by just 1% of Americans

This is exactly the problem not only for USA but for the entire world. I read `Progressive Utilisation Theorry' (Prout) written by P.R. Sarkar almost twenty years back. Sarkar critises both Capitalism and Communism. He suggest that the income and wealth disparity should not exceed 10 : 1. Highest and lowest salary in an organisation should be in that ratio only. Similarly wealth differences should not exceed the above ratio. If any body earns more than that proportion or accumulates more than that proportion of wealth, they should spend the excess for charities. It is worth reading the `Prout' theory which is home made (India's own theory).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_utilization_theory

Dr.Ravi Batra, an eminent economist, who advocates Prout theory wrote long back that if more than 90% of the wealth is controlled by less than 10% of the people, then it will create depression. During 1930 global depression, there was no co-ordinated effort by major governments in the world. However this time there is a co-ordinated effort by G20 nations (India included) to overcome the crisis.

If 95% of national wealth is controlled by just one percent of americans, it is still more dangerous. It may be very difficult to get out of the present crisis.

All the best.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

... if you have read the paper I referenced above, what you stae is obviously wrong.

I misstated the statistics. I should have said the wealth of the top 1% of Americans is equal to the total wealth of the bottom 95% of Americans. This is not in contradiction to the the web site you cited. Further, that web site also laments the growing divide between the haves and havenots, which was my point. They own the US Congress irrespective of which party is in power. This is not democracy. This is dollaracracy.

Yes, read my second reference - it shows clearly the fallacy of WHO report and why it is so.

The second reference is more reliable than WHO, because?

I think there is no point in debating health care policy of US here. You have your view, I have mine. Let us leave it at that.

I brand your thought pattern, not you.

No Sir, you wanted to brand me. When you asked me whether I am a TB, you were trying to brand me as a person. You did not ask me whether I am thinking like a TB, you asked whether I am a TB.

Oh, let us not fight over capitalism, socialism, communism, there is no end such fights.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara Ji, my response in 'blue':

Dear Shri KRS:

Greetings!

I misstated the statistics. I should have said the wealth of the top 1% of Americans is equal to the total wealth of the bottom 95% of Americans. This is not in contradiction to the the web site you cited. Further, that web site also laments the growing divide between the haves and havenots, which was my point. They own the US Congress irrespective of which party is in power. This is not democracy. This is dollaracracy.
Yes, you did. Even your assertion above the top 1% have wealth equal to top 95% is not correct. Again, I have asked you to look at the top percent wealths of other countries as well (including the 'socialist' scandinavian countries). Look at the historical percentages in the USA. Again this is nothing other than tempest in the tea pot.

The second reference is more reliable than WHO, because?
They are not 'more accurate' than WHO. They dis assemble what goes in to the WHO report and lay it out. As you usually say, 'read it and decide for yourself'.
I think there is no point in debating health care policy of US here. You have your view, I have mine. Let us leave it at that.
If I remember you started this round between us. If you do not wish to discuss further, fine.

No Sir, you wanted to brand me. When you asked me whether I am a TB, you were trying to brand me as a person. You did not ask me whether I am thinking like a TB, you asked whether I am a TB.
Guilty as charged, when it comes to verifying that you are a TB. You came in to this forum with some 'revolutionary' ideas. We needed to make sure that you are not outside of our community - as we have had recently people from outside our community who had no welfare of our community in their hearts - using this Forum for other purposes. If that is 'branding' you, yes I take full responsibility.

Oh, let us not fight over capitalism, socialism, communism, there is no end such fights.
No 'fight' on my part. I guess any discussion in areas that you do not wish to discuss seems like a fight! I thought we can have honest intellectual discussion. If you are not up to it, okay. I understand.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[silverfox]

Hi folks! I just got to read the postings of various members. First of all, I am confused (that is not hard to do!) about this 'USA-bashing' started by Ms. Narayanee. Where are we going with this?
I am senior even to KRS; I have been living here for 43 years! So, I think I can talk about this country with some authority. Let us take the 'cheap Indian' brains! Is USA twisting your arm to get the 'cheap' labor? Believe me, being in the IT business, I know India is not that cheap. Besides, Philippines, Russia, Ireland and a host of others are lined up to take away this 'cheap' labor! You also write as if the whole America is run on Indian brains! Total number of Indians living here is not even 1% of the total population. If we (Indian) have so much brains, how come all the Operating Systems and application software are built here and not in India?
Believe me, USA has a host of faults and problems but then again show me one country without any problems.
Anyway, my two cents!

 

[Nara]

I guess any discussion in areas that you do not wish to discuss seems like a fight! I thought we can have honest intellectual discussion. If you are not up to it, okay. I understand.

Dear Sir, sorry for using the word fight, I did not mean it in any negative way.

I have no problem continuing this discussion. But there are two reaons why I hesitate.

1. From some of your comments in the last couple of days, such as the one about Nobel laureate Paul Krugman and the one about selfishness, a la Ayn Rand, I see that we are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum. It seems to me that it is very unlikely that anything fruitful will come out of a debate between us on this topic. At least in the Varna discussion there were some points on which there was agreement. Here, I see nothing in common.
2. There cannot be anything more irrelevant and less interesting to TB community than the US healthcare debate.

Yet, if you wish to continue this debate I will throw in my 2 cents.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Narayanee Ji,

In America, we have real seperation of powers: The Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary each have seperation of powers with clearly defined responsibilities/authority. Each of them is governed by the articles of the constitution, with laws.

NSA, CIA and FBI come under the Executive. Judiciary is seperate and they jealously guard their independence. By the way, the legislature has oversight responsibilities also. So the Executive can not abuse their powers without check.

Sometimes, this concept is hard to understand for people from countries where there are no clear balance of power.

Please do not trust what you read on the internet and the news papers. Most of them are tinged with propaganda, whether left or right.

No one argues that some guards in Abu Gharib behaved badly. They have been punished and one very high ranking General lost her rank.

Regarding Guantanamo, all the prisoners there were captured during combat in Afghanistan. Many were set free, even though they were in the fight. There are no 'innocents' there.

As for 'torture', this is again a blanket statement that does not conform to reality. If one wants to discuss this without propaganda and emotion, we can calmly look at the facts.

Regards,
KRS

கே.ஆர்.எஸ்.ஜி, நீங்கள் 40 ஆண்டு காலம் அங்கிருக்கிறீர்கள்.நாங்களெல்லாம் இணைய தளங்கள், செய்தித் தாள்களைக் கொண்டு தான் கணிக்க முடியும்.இது இணைய தளம் காலமாகி விட்டபடியால்,இன்று இவர்களின் கபடத்தனமும் வெட்ட வெளிச்சத்துக்கு வருகிறது.

நீங்கள் சொல்லும் "அன்னிய மண்ணில் ஒருவன் அமெரிக்காவிற்குத் தீங்கிழைக்க நினைத்துப் பேசினால், அவனது பேச்சு ஒட்டு கேட்கப்படும்"என்ற வாதத்தில் எனக்கு முழு நம்பிக்கை இல்லை.ஒரு அவசரத்துக்கு என்று வைத்துக் கொண்டாலும், அதை எப்படி மூன்றாமவர் உறுதி செய்ய முடியும்?நீதிபதியும் அமெரிக்கர்; பாதுகாப்பு அதிகார்களும் அமெரிக்கர்கள்;பேசுபவன் வெளி தேசத்திலிருந்து.இதில், பாரபட்சமற்ற தன்மை எந்த அளவிற்கு நிற்கும்?

அது தான் பார்க்கிறோமே கொண்டானிமோ வளைகுடாவில்,அபு காரிஃபில் பயங்கரவாதிகள் என்று அப்பாவிகளைச் சித்திரவதை செய்வதிலிருந்தே தெரியவில்லையா இவர்கள் தீர்மானங்கள் எந்த அளவிற்கு நியாயமானது என்று?

அந்த நீதிபதியால் எந்த அளவிற்கு அதில் நியாயம் இருக்கிறது என்று நிலை நாட்ட முடியும்?

KSRji, you are 40 year resident in US. Unlike you of course, we depend on internet and news media.

Even if it is emergency like situation, how objective the judgement of NSG will be to project a case for getting permission from federal judge to wire tap?After all we are all witness to the american agencies judgement skill in guantanamo bay and Abu Gharib, where hundreds of innocents were branded as terrorists and being torutured !

In fact I am not fully convinced of your argument regarding wire tap. I will come back to you further and also point by point I am going to argue my case to justfiy my stand how crooked their mentality is!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Siddhanta Ji,

It is your business to bellieve in any conspiracy theory as crazy as they may be.

It is your right to believe in a faith/religion.

But sir, do not debunk science/logic and reasoning. And don't mix religion with Science. One is based necessarily on faith and belief and the other is based on cold logic and proof. Some principles enumerated in religion may in time proved true by science. But I think most of them will not be, because a lot of religious theories/stories are based on allegories and imagination.

Let both be seperate. Let us not try to prove that everything in Hinduism is based on science and logic.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Venkataramani Ji,

As shown above in the first reference post above in my response to Sri Nara Ji, this statement is absolutely incorrect. Sri Nara admitted his mistake above.

Regards,
KRS

95% of the wealth of US is owned by just 1% of Americans

All the best.