Sabarimala verdict in Supreme Court highlights: Top court lifts ban, women of all age

[Janaki Jambunathan]

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No one in her right senses would dare to violate the agamic injunction.

This observation of the self appointed Judge of the Forum when the Constitution Bench has given the women right to enter over ruling the agamic injections - is an insult to the wisdom of SC. How could you brand them - women with wrong sense if the enter Sabarimalai? To

 

[Vaagmi]

We can just argue , argument for argument sake. Can you a show an evidence or vedic script about the practises to be followed in sabarimala temple? As a convention we followed. Thats all. Let us give a chance for change in attitude of ours. Let us not be frozen in our mind.

Please go to Kerala meet the Namboothiri who is the melsanthi of the shrine and ask him to teach you the tantric agama rules that govern the Sabarimala shrine. If he is pleased he may teach you. And where is your proof for convention being followed. Read my post again carefully and you will understand whose mind is frozen.

 

[Vaagmi]

No one in her right senses would dare to violate the agamic injunction.

This observation of the self appointed Judge of the Forum when the Constitution Bench has given the women right to enter over ruling the agamic injections - is an insult to the wisdom of SC. How could you brand them - women with wrong sense if the enter Sabarimalai? To

Judges are human beings and are fallible individually and collectively.
The quoted first line is what a Malayali women professor of a college in Kerala said.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

We can just argue , argument for argument sake. Can you a show an evidence or vedic script about the practises to be followed in sabarimala temple? As a convention we followed. Thats all. Let us give a chance for change in attitude of ours. Let us not be frozen in our mind.

The problem in India is that everything is seen through western lens and through the lens of abrahamic religions. The essential practices test cannot be easily applied to the hindu religion which is a syncretic religion where in practices and pagan rituals of various sects are accepted; these practices evolve over time and each temple may have its own distinct flavor and set of rules etc. There is not a single book or scripture that could cover the rules of the entire religion as opposed to the abrahamic religions.

There are many lakhs of temples in India and only a handful of temples restrict entry based on one's gender. incidentally there are temple festivities that allow only women as well. Therefore, even if gender is a protected group characteristic, it would be wrong to generalize hinduism as a patriarchal order based on the rules followed only in these handful of temples. It is just another case of state/judiciary meddling in the affairs of hindu religion - just part of the bigger transformation project. That the supposed hindu party that is ruling India now is utterly unaware of these shenanigans is the tragedy of modern India.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Judges are human beings and are fallible individually and collectively.
The quoted first line is what a Malayali women professor of a college in Kerala said.

Actually media, in this case, did not give much coverage to the judge who dissented. Out of the 5 judges, 4 judges pronounced verdict against the ban but there was one dissenting opinion by Judge Indu Malhotra. The majority opinion prevailed but Indu Malhotra's opinion hit all the right points. Incidentally, Indu Malhotra was the only woman judge in the panel!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

My interest in this Judgment is limited to only legal position because the Judgement seems to be on the opinion of Raju Ramachandran - one of the two Amicus

Noted senior lawyer Raju Ramachandran took a progressive modern view and supported the PIL of Indian Young Lawyers Association, saying that women have "universal and legal right"

Indian lawyers, especially of the progressive type, tend to express these opinions very selectively.

Would lawyers like Raju Ramachandran or Indira Jaising take a similar principled position of "women have universal and legal right" in case of other religions or would Indian Young Lawyers Association file a similar PIL against the Islamic practice of banning entry of Muslim women in any of the several thousand Indian Mosques?

I know Indira would not; May be JJ can elicit the opinion of her nephew!

 

[renuka]

I dont understand women too at times...if a place doesnt allow women..I just wont go there..its as simple as that cos God Himself might not be there.
God doesnt need a temple..its we humans that come up with all sorts of restrictions and complicate stuff.

 

[renuka]

Indian lawyers, especially of the progressive type, tend to express these opinions very selectively.

Would lawyers like Raju Ramachandran or Indira Jaising take a similar principled position of "women have universal and legal right" in case of other religions or would Indian Young Lawyers Association file a similar PIL against the Islamic practice of banning entry of Muslim women in any of the several thousand Indian Mosques?

I know Indira would not; May be JJ can elicit the opinion of her nephew!

The discussion here is about Agama effect of a temple..why drag in Islam here.

Why when one wants to proof a point one drags in Islam?

But get all happy victorious that Talaq was banned recently.

One must have a stand..a firm footing to debate an issue within their own religion and not drag in another religion..otherwise one is just doing the Zakir Naik..dragging in other religions.

Btw Muslim women are not banned in Mosques here where I stay..it depends on the local culture.

 

[prasad1]

I dont understand women too at times...if a place doesnt allow women..I just wont go there..its as simple as that cos God Himself might not be there.
God doesnt need a temple..its we humans that come up with all sorts of restrictions and complicate stuff.

I do not subscribe to that policy.
If it is a public place, I think I have every right to be there. Some one has no right to stop others, who are eligible. If we did not object to this kind of behavior, there still will apartheid, and segregated housing.

We still have the slave mentality, and do not challenge such overlords.

I admire these courageous people who challenge, such patriarchal goons.

 

[prasad1]

The discussion here is about Agama effect of a temple..why drag in Islam here.

Why when one wants to proof a point one drags in Islam?

But get all happy victorious that Talaq was banned recently.

One must have a stand..a firm footing to debate an issue within their own religion and not drag in another religion..otherwise one is just doing the Zakir Naik..dragging in other religions.

Btw Muslim women are not banned in Mosques here where I stay..it depends on the local culture.

Some Hindu with Inferiority Complex, always want to bring other people to their level, instead of raising themselves to higher level. Hindus have majority, Hindus have population, Hindus are in the highest position, socially, economically, politically etc. but they are still envious of others.

Some Hindus in India want what they have but also wants others have. It is the dog with a bone story.

I do not understand this jealousy.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The discussion here is about Agama effect of a temple..why drag in Islam here.

Why when one wants to proof a point one drags in Islam?

But get all happy victorious that Talaq was banned recently.

One must have a stand..a firm footing to debate an issue within their own religion and not drag in another religion..otherwise one is just doing the Zakir Naik..dragging in other religions.

Btw Muslim women are not banned in Mosques here where I stay..it depends on the local culture.

My post was in response to Ms. JJ's post who said she was interested in the "legal position".

What part of that post did you not understand? If it is a legal problem, the expectation is that the court view (or in this case the opinion of the amicus curae that "women have universal and legal right") must be common to all citizens of India irrespective of the religion. My post should be viewed in that light. In fact, I am not even pointing to the problem in Islam. I am pointing out to the inconsistent narrative of the court and the legal experts when it comes in particular to the hindu religion vis-a-vis other religions, in this case, Islam. Why is that you find the need to be defensive when it comes to Islam?

Of all the posts so far in this thread, which one talks about agama etc? Almost none. If the discussion is really about the agama effect, what business does the court have in delivering this verdict? The honorable judges are not experts in agama, after all. They are only interpreting according to the constitution, which deals mostly with the secular aspects only.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The fact is that some people do not understand anything!

The only dictum that applies here is that the vessel which is empty is the one that sounds the loudest. This sound often drowns out any and all reasonable voice. And that is pitiful.

 

[renuka]

My post was in response to Ms. JJ's post who said she was interested in the "legal position".

What part of that post did you not understand? If it is a legal problem, the expectation is that the court view (or in this case the opinion of the amicus curae that "women have universal and legal right") must be common to all citizens of India irrespective of the religion. My post should be viewed in that light. In fact, I am not even pointing to the problem in Islam. I am pointing out to the inconsistent narrative of the court and the legal experts when it comes in particular to the hindu religion vis-a-vis other religions, in this case, Islam. Why is that you find the need to be defensive when it comes to Islam?

Of all the posts so far in this thread, which one talks about agama etc? Almost none. If the discussion is really about the agama effect, what business does the court have in delivering this verdict? The honorable judges are not experts in agama, after all. They are only interpreting according to the constitution, which deals mostly with the secular aspects only.

Islam has the Shariah court to govern Islamic affairs so experts are religious and legal experts but sadly we Hindus do not have such a court becos we have multiple school of thoughts..each Varna has their own Dharma..each Guru ji their own rules..a Ramanuja or a Shankara would contradict each other...so what choice does that leave?
We have to be governed by the Civil Legal Justice system..hence even a Pachyderm was taken to court as an exhibit.


So its not that I failed to understand your post..its just that you cant compare two legal justice system..the Civil and the Shariah...its like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear KB Sir,

Women of other faiths might not be as courageous as Hindu women!!

This courage will make them enter holy shrines even during 'forbidden days'!

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

I know Indira would not; May be JJ can elicit the opinion of her nephew!

Why not directly from horses mouth?

He has also reasoned why he had to decline a court duty when the Supreme Court had asked him to be a part of the SC Commissioners team in the Kanahaiya Kumar case at the Patiala House Court as his presence in a surcharged atmosphere could have been provocative.


In his interview on Section 377, he categorically mooted that the challenge and the fight is not for scrapping Section 377 completely but to decriminalize private consensual acts between majors, which the Supreme Court had enely missed.... (This is before the recent SC Verdict)

Read more at: https://www.livelaw.in/grateful-youve-around-book-review-raju-ramachandrans-ive-around-time/


Read more at: https://www.livelaw.in/grateful-youve-around-book-review-raju-ramachandrans-ive-around-time/

https://www.livelaw.in/grateful-youve-around-book-review-raju-ramachandrans-ive-around-time/

 

[tbs]

If I have the power:

Topless man???.Shoot at sight! :boom:

hi

try and imagine topless woman in temple?..if u born and brought up in kerala.....these are common....topless men are important

all kerala temples....becoz of weather conditions...humidity and sweaty...

 

[Vikky]

Why imagine topless woman in temples....?

Do we NOT have more erotic sculptures in temples which are considered as more holy.....?

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Judges are human beings and are fallible individually and collectively.
The quoted first line is what a Malayali women professor of a college in Kerala said.

Of all the posts so far in this thread, which one talks about agama etc? Almost none. If the discussion is really about the agama effect, what business does the court have in delivering this verdict? The honorable judges are not experts in agama, after all. They are only interpreting according to the constitution, which deals mostly with the secular aspects only.

Let me put a பிள்ளையார் சுழி for Agama !

Agama is not human and hence infallible!
Logical? Conjecture? Axiom?

 

[vijiseeni]

In Hindu religion, women are accorded more respect and regards in comparison to men.Then discrimination is totally in effective and anti Hindu. The so-called agama rules were framed long ago by someone .Acccording to temple administration , this practice was started , in those days, since women during menstrual period cannot trek very difficult mountainous terrains in thick forest area for weeks together then. How can you accept that mere sight of a woman will affect celibacy. The devotees are going to Sabarimala to show their devotion and not for taking oath of celebacy.Furthet Women are meant for creation of generation..They are builders of conscience, notion, belief , trust and what not. That being the case , let us not look their entry as a violation. Let us welcome it. Lord Ayappa will definitely bless the new initiative.

 

[KRN]

We can close the matter and move.

We can do it in the forum, but perhaps this matter will continue to be in the news for some more time

Yesterday while flipping through the tv news channels, I heard someone outlining the next set of moves his group is going to take...

1. Review petition in SC
2. Curative petition in SC
3. A Jallikkattu-like agitation to force the Centre to take cognizance and bring in ordinance overruling the judgment

 

[KRN]

Apparently SC merely set aside an earlier Kerala HC judgment.
Just happened to see the below, in Wikipedia.

In 1991, Justice K Paripoornan and Justice K Balanarayana Marar of the Kerala High Court in their ruling against the Travancore Devaswom Board, banned entry of women between ages above the age of 10 and below the age of 50 from offering worship at Sabarimala Shrine during any period of the year stating that such restriction was in accordance with the usage prevalent from time immemorial.[SUP][8][/SUP] In addition, the Justices of the High court directed the Government of Kerala, to use police force to ensure the order to ban entry of women to the temple was implemented and complied with.[SUP][8][/SUP]

 

[KRN]

1999 Sabarimala Stampede
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Sabarimala_stampede
2009 Sabarimala Stampede
https://www.thehindu.com/todays-pap...ed-to-death-in-Sabarimala/article16616951.ece
2011 Sabarimala Stampede declared 'national disaster'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Sabarimala_stampede
2016 Sabarimala Stampede
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/31-injured-in-Sabarimala-stampede/article16942142.ece1
2018:Sabarimala Stampede
https://english.manoramaonline.com/...hant-runs-amok-sabarimala-temple-injured.html

 

[renuka]

I do not subscribe to that policy.
If it is a public place, I think I have every right to be there. Some one has no right to stop others, who are eligible. If we did not object to this kind of behavior, there still will apartheid, and segregated housing.

We still have the slave mentality, and do not challenge such overlords.

I admire these courageous people who challenge, such patriarchal goons.

I dont go to places where I am not welcomed.

 

[Raji Ram]

Women are not allowed to keep flowers on their hair in Tirumalā.

The next fight could be for right to decorate oneself!! :fencing:

 

[Vaagmi]

I heard someone outlining the next set of moves his group is going to take...
1. Review petition in SC
2. Curative petition in SC
3. A Jallikkattu-like agitation to force the Centre to take cognizance and bring in ordinance overruling the judgment

Closing the stables after the horses have bolted.

The best course of action would have been for the Hindu religious heads to have assembled and
1) discussed the matter threadbare in the light of Agamic injunctions.
2) persuade the litigant to withdraw the original petition from the court.
3) decide if there is any possible relaxations to the rule in the light of agamic rules as interpreted in the mosaic of time. For instance they could have decided and accommodated the feminists views by allowing women irrespective of age to go to the shrine subject to the condition that they should avoid doing that during their "periods" only.
4) Appeal to the Government to help enforce the agamic injunctions.

None of this happened because we hindus do not have an enlightened leadership -- either religious or political. We pay the price.

Now curative petitions, review petitions etc., are not going to make any material change. Agitation will be a stupid step and will become a forerunner to such agitations by other religious fanatics.

We are waiting for the honourable judges to proclaim whether a masjid is integral to religious worship in Islam or not.

While on one side we have people speaking of review petitions, we have yet to see celebrations by feminists in a big way. I wont be surprised if we come across a call by feminists to celebrate the victory this way:

Oh Menstruating women of the world! Unite! We in India have won a crucial victory in our relentless battle for equality with men.
We have now been proved to have equal rights as men have in every way.

We can now go to Sabarimala and paint the entire mountain red--crimson red. We can make the Pamba river flow in red color. Let us celebrate. All of you, exactly when you are menstruating, make it a point to visit the temple for worship. That is the right time to score a point against the patriarchical society and its tyranny. You need not worry. We will provide you with good quality sanitary pads and other helps. If you get depressions accompanying your periods, there will be enough free opiates available with our volunteers who will help you.
Do visit Sabarimala.