Return of the Brahmin

[sangom]

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Dear sangomji

Whatever I have quoted is straight from the net and posted by keralites themselves.

If you google kerala brahmins, you might locate these.

I have nowhere said that Namboodhri are kshatriyas.I have said they came from indus valley and came to kerala journeying along the west coast. I only said

Kshatriyas starting with parasurama dominated the kerala scene . Nairs who are kshatriya warriour clan gave protection to namboodris to usurp all lands

and Namboodris used them for controlling castes lower in heirarchy such as ezhavas ,thiyas etc. Cruelty towards lower castes was maximum in kerala

Your contention that they are from krishna -godavari belt - I have not read anywhere nor any namboodri would accept . Most also stand by parasurama story.

Nairs gave protection to namboodris who were higher caste it is believed.

It is believed that the superiority of brahmins lay in declaring Mahabali as a asura destroyed by a puny brahmin as you have suggested.yet all keralites celebrate it as

their own festival -all brahmins included.

when and from where tamil brahmins came to kerala , I have not talked about .Thanks for info .

I did read from in the web that travancore rajas depended on them to drive out namboodris from north kerala.

As for conversion to christianity , all syrian christians claim their ancestors were namboodris.

As for muslims are concerned , the arab traders mixing with local kerala women were the original mopla muslims

Later tipu invaded and added more muslims by converting locals later.

most of dewans to travancore rajas were tamil brahmins.

the last being Ramaswamy iyer who tried for the independance of the princely state without success.

I have nothing to do with kerala nor I have any relatives there

My interest in it is more out of curiousity than anything else

Shri Krish ji,

I did not intend finding fault with your post, but if that is how it appeared to you, then I apologize; please excuse my lack of command in use of words.

Only some points need to be clarified, again and it is not that you have committed some inexcusable sin.

1. Nambudiris cannot be traced back to the Indus valley just as the Chitpavan Brahmins (again, associated with Parasurama as per Skanda Purana, the only source for the origin of the Chitpavans) cannot be; scholarly labours have come only to the extent that some brahmanas from the ancient Ahicchatra (near Ramnagar village in Aonla tehsil of Bareilly district in Uttar Pradesh state) migrated to the Konkan seacoast and eventually some of these migrants became the Chitpavan Brahmins. Likewise, the Nambudiris seem to have lived in Kannada/Tulu speaking areas just prior to their influx into northern Malabar. Their social customs, some of the words which were in usage in earlier centuries, marriage customs, etc., are said to closely resemble those of the people living in the Krishna-Godavari area. You are right in that no Nambudiri will accept this and talk only about the mythical Parasurama.

2. The Christians believe that St. Thomas, one of the Apostles, came to Kerala and initially converted some Nambudiri families in central Kerala area of today, into Xianity. These people are the Syrian Christians and they still cling to their brahministic glory and higher status. All other denominations of Christians are from other caste groups and mostly from the lowest castes.

3. Tipu invaded Malabar and forcibly converted some hindus into Islam but the Malabar area had, even in Tipu's time, a sizeable percentage of Muslim population as explained in my earlier post. The extent of conversion done by Tipu varies according to the narrator's choice.

4. The list of Dewans of Travancore (List of Diwans of Travancore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) speaks for itself. Even if we consider those brahmins from Karnataka (Kannada brahmins) the list contains only a good sprinkling of brahmins particularly from the later half of the 19th. century.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I have no authentic info. but to the best of my knowledge RSS/BJP etc., have only lukewarm reception in Kerala till now. Hence, the possibility of more Shakhas, etc., is very remote.

This statement was made by a Politician while debating why BJP has not won a single seat in Kerala so far.

So, we believe that on that day every year Mahabali comes to see how we are faring and we feel it is our foremost duty to present ourselves in the best of cheer and happiness to our dear old noble ruler so that he will return satisfied. We feel Vamana (Brahmana) tricked our dear emperor because he tried to aspire for the position of Indra which did not suit the brahmin interests (yes, I am a brahmin but more than that I am a Keralite!). BTW, the Nambudiris also used to celebrate Onam in the exact same way although they represented Vamana's side more.

Of late, ONAM is being celebrated as a mark of rising the status of BC/MBC/OBC communities in Kerala. Even non-believers used to greet on that day.

In such a grand obfuscation of reality, items like Onam at least serve as a very feeble reminder to impartial people to discern the evils of the past. And, that is why I still observe Onam. Even if Mahabali was killed, can we not observe one day in his honour when we do so for countless others like Gandhi, Nehru, Indira, Rajeev, etc? Does that mean all Indians are emotional and sentimental? What about Thanksgiving day in the US?

For believers, it is in order. Religious leaders can build up stories to make people believe and accept. But the strange thing is even Communists, who are supposed to be non-believes, have also joined the celebration. May be due to the rise of BC communities. When Achudhanathan was CM last time, he created a controversy by saying that Sabarimalai was a Buddhist place but immediately said that he did not want to elaborate the matter further.

 

[sangom]

This statement was made by a Politician while debating why BJP has not won a single seat in Kerala so far.

No comments.

Of late, ONAM is being celebrated as a mark of rising the status of BC/MBC/OBC communities in Kerala. Even non-believers used to greet on that day.

Historically, Onam has been celebrated by all Keralites, from the King down to the poorest and the lowest classes/castes. Hence, it is a misunderstanding to say as above. However, with increased prosperity of people including the BC/MBC/OBC, the nature and scale of celebration has undergone significant changes.

For believers, it is in order. Religious leaders can build up stories to make people believe and accept. But the strange thing is even Communists, who are supposed to be non-believes, have also joined the celebration. May be due to the rise of BC communities. When Achudhanathan was CM last time, he created a controversy by saying that Sabarimalai was a Buddhist place but immediately said that he did not want to elaborate the matter further.

We do not look upon Onam as a religious festival, it is a state festival. Believer/non-believer, etc., have no relevance in this regard. Religious minded people may put some emphasis on the religious side also, that is all.

Achuthanandan is quite right. Sabarimala was a Jain Sanketham (not Buddhist, AFAIK) in which the Jains who were fleeing the persecution of the King in Appar's time, took shelter. Subsequently, those Jains left the place and the idol was looked upon as "God" by the local hill tribes. Some time later Nambudiris chanced upon this hill temple, found its attractiveness as well as the high devotion from the hill tribes. In their own characteristic ways, the Nambudiris "engulfed & devoured" the pristine shrine and the hill tribes who were doing the temple duties, were all cast out. Even then the high caste people could not do without active help and support plus physical protection from wild animals from the tribals and, as a result, access to this Sabarimala temple had been given even from olden times, up to the holy 18 steps for people of all castes. Now, of course every one has access up to the front of the sanctum sanctorum.

 

[sarang]

Achuthanandan is quite right. Sabarimala was a Jain Sanketham (not Buddhist, AFAIK) in which the Jains who were fleeing the persecution of the King in Appar's time, took shelter. Subsequently, those Jains left the place and the idol was looked upon as "God" by the local hill tribes. Some time later Nambudiris chanced upon this hill temple, found its attractiveness as well as the high devotion from the hill tribes. In their own characteristic ways, the Nambudiris "engulfed & devoured" the pristine shrine and the hill tribes who were doing the temple duties, were all cast out.

Any reference or source supporting this?

 

[sangom]

Any reference or source supporting this?

Almost all internet sources state that it was a buddhist shrine. In that case, the origin will go back to hoary times. But I have read a book which argued that the peculiar sitting posture of the idol could not have been buddhist but more plausible as a Jain idol. I will collect the particulars of the book.

Even if the temple's origin goes back to Ashokan times, the fact remains that the shrine was being looked after by the local hill tribes for a long time and the godhead was called as "iyyaappu", a name among the hill tribes, and that the Nambudiris made it 'Ayyappa' and spun stories to identify it with Saasthaa, a basically brahministic deity supposed to have been born to Siva and Mohini (the female form of Vishnu — the usual story!). The temple was unheard of outside the travancore state and was popular more among the lower castes till about Independence. In 1952 the temple was completely destroyed by a fire accident and a new granite idol was made and installed. Thereafter the Travancore Devaswom Board embarked upon a massive advertising programme in which a vehicle toured from Kanyakumari to Kashmir with a large image of the idol and leaflets in all local languages containing the usual 'sthalapuranam', miracles endorsed by bhaktas, etc., and the present popularity of the temple owes a lot to that publicity gimmick !

 

[krish44]

Sangomji

Claims are always made about shrines of one religion as originally belonging to another religion.

In ayodhya, we have claims of a masjid built over an ancient hindu temple. . Today some BJP activist talked about tajmahal in agra built above a hindu temple .

similar claims about tirupathi temple of venkateswara being originally a jain temple as normally venkateswara temples are never on hills.

these are claims many times contested and history and evidence misinterpreted and distorted to justify claims by those making these claims.

truth perhaps will never be known.

it only creates only tension and bad blood between people professing different religion in our country.

It is a fact however that jainism [called samanam] held sway in some southern states like tamilnadu .later hinduism quietly absorbed followers of mahavira in its fold

making mahavira an avathar of supreme God

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Any reference or source supporting this?

Sarang Sir, There are any number of "internet" sources that make such claims with one referencing another and none that can be considered a bulletproof argument. You can generally find a anti-hindu and anti-brahmin theme in all these "claims" much like the arguments made here in TBF, which incidentally could be cited as an "internet source" in the future.

Both the Jain and Buddhist religions were very unforgiving of meat eating and they condemned the meat eaters as lowly lives and had their own version of caste hierarchies built around such values justified by their version of karma theory. So the hill and tribal people could not have been following either of these religions. Even if they did, it must mean that it is these religions which "engulfed and devoured" the practices of the natives. But these are nastika religions, their claims are not subject to reason and are naturally lapped up by those with anti-brahmin slant.

There is also some Christian connection. Some of these "internet" sources are related to Christian dalit forums. I think the huge popularity of the shrine and the pilgrimage attracts such brickbats. Some hold that the fire incident of 1950's was not really an accident but it is the handiwork of Christian fundamentalists. These claims are based on the report filed by the investigating police officer which refers to Christian arsonists. So may be it is this incident which led to the resurgence and popularity of sabarimala pilgrimage.

It seems Namoothiris will soon replace the TBs as the most abused community in this forum.

 

[krish44]

Delhi university sanskrit department is organising a get together to establish that aryans are not aliens but indigeneous people.

While left wing historians like Ramola Thapar and D N Jha support the 'aryan invasion theory ' and think aryans came from outside india as invaders, Right wing

historians feel aryans are indigenous people who established the Saraswathi Valley civilisation

The department intends to organise lectures related to Textual evidence, archaelogical evidence, linguistics, comparative religion, folk literature , genetic mapping

to bolster the claims of right wing historians .

A foreign scholar David Frawley ,founder of he American Institute Of vedic Studies' is speaking on textual evidence supporting aryan theory

the department also feels Aryan culture and vedic age is not reflected in text books of all boards including CBSE and state boards.. Only western or marxist views are

projected.It also feels Indian historians views with textual evidence and research needs also to be included.

First introduction of sanskrit instead of german and now this get together .

It should warm the hearts of many in this forum.

Visit delhi to enjoy the get together in delhi university next week

 

[sarang]

I totally agree with you. Circular references are the sole refuge of anti hindus and anti brahmins. Anyway a simple google search did not lead me to jain connection with sabarimala. A special focused search may give some info. In the mean time, one Mr. Dinakaran has compiled jain budhdhist connection with the caveat "The following has been taken from several Web sites" without any reference to consulted sites. There are even papers in journals and conferences with circular references. Even the supreme court has admonished jnu historians for frivolous statements without any supporting evidence; one lady even said in the witness box that she got the info from newspapers.

Sarang Sir, There are any number of "internet" sources that make such claims with one referencing another and none that can be considered a bulletproof argument. You can generally find a anti-hindu and anti-brahmin theme in all these "claims" much like the arguments made here in TBF, which incidentally could be cited as an "internet source" in the future.

Both the Jain and Buddhist religions were very unforgiving of meat eating and they condemned the meat eaters as lowly lives and had their own version of caste hierarchies built around such values justified by their version of karma theory. So the hill and tribal people could not have been following either of these religions. Even if they did, it must mean that it is these religions which "engulfed and devoured" the practices of the natives. But these are nastika religions, their claims are not subject to reason and are naturally lapped up by those with anti-brahmin slant.

There is also some Christian connection. Some of these "internet" sources are related to Christian dalit forums. I think the huge popularity of the shrine and the pilgrimage attracts such brickbats. Some hold that the fire incident of 1950's was not really an accident but it is the handiwork of Christian fundamentalists. These claims are based on the report filed by the investigating police officer which refers to Christian arsonists. So may be it is this incident which led to the resurgence and popularity of sabarimala pilgrimage.

It seems Namoothiris will soon replace the TBs as the most abused community in this forum.

 

[sarang]

Romila thaper's recent 'mutthu'. Hindus have inferiority complex because they want to revive and study samskrit.

 

[sangom]

Delhi university sanskrit department is organising a get together to establish that aryans are not aliens but indigeneous people.

While left wing historians like Ramola Thapar and D N Jha support the 'aryan invasion theory ' and think aryans came from outside india as invaders, Right wing

historians feel aryans are indigenous people who established the Saraswathi Valley civilisation

The department intends to organise lectures related to Textual evidence, archaelogical evidence, linguistics, comparative religion, folk literature , genetic mapping

to bolster the claims of right wing historians .

A foreign scholar David Frawley ,founder of he American Institute Of vedic Studies' is speaking on textual evidence supporting aryan theory

the department also feels Aryan culture and vedic age is not reflected in text books of all boards including CBSE and state boards.. Only western or marxist views are

projected.It also feels Indian historians views with textual evidence and research needs also to be included.

First introduction of sanskrit instead of german and now this get together .

It should warm the hearts of many in this forum.

Visit delhi to enjoy the get together in delhi university next week

I get a sense of déjà vu! Last time BJP came to power for long enough time (1999) one Shri Kalyanaraman was at the forefront of a similar "adventure" with David Frawley, Asko Parpola and some others giving "able" support. Subsequently came "India Shining" or something like that and the whole thing went Phut, UPA getting a double term, one bonus, so to say!

Best to watch the same film retaken with different actors (like Devadas with SRK, Aishwarya Rai, etc.), is it not?

 

[sarang]

That march to blow AIT is always on, more historians and archeologists joining the procession. It may surprise you to only Hindu haters still advocate ait. Political and religion neutral truth seekers have buried AIT. It is sheer desperation to hang on to imperial period forced theories, and inability to digest native wisdom.