Reservations...necessary evil?

[maruti]

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I'd like to start a thread, trying to understand the alternatives, if any, to reservations. This is based on an interesting conversation with a friend of mine.

He says reservations are aimed at correcting historical wrongs, and they don't target any community. Moreover, what's the alternative to reservation? If there is no reservation, there's very slim chance of NBs making it, he claims. As most of our education is a test of memory and not much else, he says Brahmins are going to perform very well, considering they have an exceptional memory. Without reservations, no one can stop Brahmins. But this is unfair, he alleges.:hat:

At least, reservations create a level-playing field. Without reservations, a certain community, banking on intellectual capacities, becomes more and more educated and richer, whereas for dalits and the rest, the same old story of illiteracy and poverty will continue. Therefore, my friend reasons that reservations are an act of compassion, in that they help NBs who'll otherwise have no chance, and they're not to be misconstrued as hatred against Brahmins.

Perhaps, we should consider these points, and find out whether there are alternatives to reservation policies. It makes us Brahmins look bad, when we try to stop reservations which supposedly give bread and butter to the oppressed classes. That's why I feel we must figure out alternatives to reservations, if only to counter anti-Brahmin arguments.

Hope we can have a healthy debate on this. No name calling, no flaming, please. Let's try to be civil.:amen:

 

[NARAS]

sir - in a modern democracy, if anything is necessary,then it cannot be evil, if it is evil it cannot be necessary!

BTW, even founding fathers of constitution awarded quotas only for sc/st (not for bc or religious minorities) that too only for 10 yrs. and that too only in a few select areas. because of vote bank politicians and 'populist' judges (as Dr. ARUN SHOURIE calls them) quotas have been extended permanently, widened to many other castes and also expanded to many sectors. the arguments of pro caste reservationists have only sentimental value, no legal or democratic basis

 

[parunach]

TN specification on reservation

I personally see that the present mechanism can be corrected by having data about people. While it is true that people have been discriminated against, it is important to target individuals and not communities. Historic wrongs cannot be corrected by some simplistic procedure. An economic mode for reservations would be a possibility. However, no one in the political system wishes to consider this.

The D.K. has argued for reconsideration of the ceiling fixed by the court as it is not based on any scientific study or principle. "A ceiling of 50 per cent reservation in effect results in 50 per cent reservation for the forward castes, which is not permissible in law," it said.

This seems to imply that open category is reserved for the "forward castes". I would urge people to first have the following data in the present system.

-how many people in the open category are from backward class
-how many people in the open category are economically backward
-how many people in the reserved category are from which class
-sort them based on class and mention the percentage of population that is part of the class
-what is the statistics on the economic status of each class

This will give an idea about how many people are really getting the benifit. This will also give an idea of where adjustments need to be made.

 

[fire]

Unproven arguments

I guess many brahmins are showing interests in Education only thats why they do well. Given equal opportunity on education level and environment I guess an equal number of other communities will also do well and I see its happening . Political parties speaks about Regional language education but unfortunately that is not helping people to shine in this world. Thats why politicians educate their relatives in convents or send them abroad. People who get such education can compete with any Brahmins or whoever it may be.Many poor people are not sending their children to schools. They dont have money. Some do send to schools.Teachers knows nothing . They read out from some guides .It is unimaginable a guy gets Govt education to compete with a guy from Central board or other syllabus atleast in the language front which is very much important . So reservation is to make people forget about Govt mistakes.Its not a solution to the problems. If they are willing Govt can come out with a statistics how many people got benefitted who really need it ( Sons or daughters of people who do toilet cleaning ,sweeping etc) . Also they can bring about a statistics how it is used by the wealthy people ( an offordable middle class who can send their children to matric schools and Rich ).

I'd like to start a thread, trying to understand the alternatives, if any, to reservations. This is based on an interesting conversation with a friend of mine.

He says reservations are aimed at correcting historical wrongs, and they don't target any community. Moreover, what's the alternative to reservation? If there is no reservation, there's very slim chance of NBs making it, he claims. As most of our education is a test of memory and not much else, he says Brahmins are going to perform very well, considering they have an exceptional memory. Without reservations, no one can stop Brahmins. But this is unfair, he alleges.:hat:

At least, reservations create a level-playing field. Without reservations, a certain community, banking on intellectual capacities, becomes more and more educated and richer, whereas for dalits and the rest, the same old story of illiteracy and poverty will continue. Therefore, my friend reasons that reservations are an act of compassion, in that they help NBs who'll otherwise have no chance, and they're not to be misconstrued as hatred against Brahmins.

Perhaps, we should consider these points, and find out whether there are alternatives to reservation policies. It makes us Brahmins look bad, when we try to stop reservations which supposedly give bread and butter to the oppressed classes. That's why I feel we must figure out alternatives to reservations, if only to counter anti-Brahmin arguments.

Hope we can have a healthy debate on this. No name calling, no flaming, please. Let's try to be civil.:amen:

 

[Chintana]

Alternative

Training.

Give them special, extra training.

Give the disadvantaged classes special, extra training to compete on par with the rest.

Don't cut of the heads of the taller children to make all children look equal.

Give the malnourished children good, nutritious food.

I guess many brahmins are showing interests in Education only thats why they do well. Given equal opportunity on education level and environment I guess an equal number of other communities will also do well and I see its happening . Political parties speaks about Regional language education but unfortunately that is not helping people to shine in this world. Thats why politicians educate their relatives in convents or send them abroad. People who get such education can compete with any Brahmins or whoever it may be.Many poor people are not sending their children to schools. They dont have money. Some do send to schools.Teachers knows nothing . They read out from some guides .It is unimaginable a guy gets Govt education to compete with a guy from Central board or other syllabus atleast in the language front which is very much important . So reservation is to make people forget about Govt mistakes.Its not a solution to the problems. If they are willing Govt can come out with a statistics how many people got benefitted who really need it ( Sons or daughters of people who do toilet cleaning ,sweeping etc) . Also they can bring about a statistics how it is used by the wealthy people ( an offordable middle class who can send their children to matric schools and Rich ).

 

[maruti]

Thanks for all your replies.

Wouldn't it be better to change the education system itself, so that creativity would be more important than memory? Why harp on a system that emphasizes memory (thereby favoring Brahmins), and then force others to fit into the system? Why can't we change the system itself, so everyone will get a chance?

And I don't really like the thing about special training. It is kinda discriminatory, it makes children feel inferior.:twitch:

 

[hariharan1972]

I disagree

Thanks for all your replies.

Wouldn't it be better to change the education system itself, so that creativity would be more important than memory? Why harp on a system that emphasizes memory (thereby favoring Brahmins), and then force others to fit into the system? Why can't we change the system itself, so everyone will get a chance?

And I don't really like the thing about special training. It is kinda discriminatory, it makes children feel inferior

To suggest that Brahmins are performing well ONLY because it is rote based is a fallacy

True the educational sytem places an undue importance on memory but to suggest that Brahmins aren't creative is a far fetched theory.

Brahmins have ALWAYS done well in fine arts which is very creative.; Some of the greatest philosophers have been Brahmins.; Some of the path breaking reformists have been Brahmins.

So to broadbrush Brahmins as a community only strong in memorizing is illogical.

Ofcourse i could buy the theory that since Brahmins ate 'light food' they perhaps have superior retention skills.

I am completely in favour of changing the educational system to give appropriate weightage to application , creativity, sports etc.... I can say that Brahmins will excel in such a system too. They perhaps may initially struggle to compete in Sports.


Extra Training is not discriminatory but a positive affirmative action to help the average/below average students. It is a reflection of care & concern.

There are ways to handle the extra training in a way that children feel 'wanted' rather than 'discriminated'.

The bottom line is how involved the parents are in the education of the child. The child's performance is a direct reflection of this involvement.

As much as 'Extreme pressure' is a disincentive to performance so is absolute lack of care.

You also seem to suggest that Today's Brahmins are 'designing' the educational system which is again wrong. 3% of population is not determining what 97% has to study.

As a nation we are guilty of not reforming education beyond the Macaulay system & please let us place the burden of guilt on Brahmins alone.

In a lighter vein, i am always confused about your "loyalties". Can't figure out whether you are pro or anti brahmin.

Neenga nallavara kettavara ? (Nayagan style)

 

[NARAS]

sir - exactly my confusion as well. are you pro bramin, anti bramin or both or neither???

 

[maruti]

To suggest that Brahmins are performing well ONLY because it is rote based is a fallacy

True the educational sytem places an undue importance on memory but to suggest that Brahmins aren't creative is a far fetched theory.

I never said Brahmins weren't creative, just that Brahmins have an exceptional memory which gives them an edge over others.

There are ways to handle the extra training in a way that children feel 'wanted' rather than 'discriminated'.

We can't even implement regular schemes, do you think these 'special ways' can ever be put in place? Let's be realistic.

You also seem to suggest that Today's Brahmins are 'designing' the educational system

Not really, but then again, brahmins have held important positions and their indifference to these matters annoys me greatly. Even the first PM was Brahmin.

As a nation we are guilty of not reforming education beyond the Macaulay system & please let us place the burden of guilt on Brahmins alone.

We never tire of giving excuses. Many brahmins have been in important positions, what did they do? Someone on this forum suggested that brahmins like Sekhar (happy to be in the party that arrested the most important brahmin), Visu (just a movie star), Swamy and Cho (they change their minds as easily as most ppl change their clothes) should take the lead in matters pertaining to brahmins.:der: It made me LOL.

Bottom line, it's all well to complain that we are just 3%, but when we DO get the chance, we mess things up. Similar to hindus complaining about mughal rule darkness, but even after hindus become free, they still continue mughal policies such as looting temples, appeasing minorities etc. This is a peculiar attitude of the hindus and brahmins, and I can't understand it at all.

In a lighter vein, i am always confused about your "loyalties". Can't figure out whether you are pro or anti brahmin.

Neenga nallavara kettavara ? (Nayagan style)

Theriyalaye Pa!:rockon:

 

[fire]

fire

As I have already said , in TN the FC &BC mark difference is lower...Many communities are doing good. We have to take in account how many people are getting education and what kind of education they get. One from Govt tamil medium school cannot become chief editor of CNN-IBN. If Brahmins are having extraordinary memory power is true ....A kind of caste based remark ...proof & or reason should be given. If you explain what is 'creative things' and how we can change the system it will be better to understand. In my perception without upgrading standards of education , any reforms u bring will prove counterproductive.The reason behind removal entrance is village guys can compete with city guys who gets good coaching (in memory terms.Not in understanding terms) .Only Few people are arguing for it. Esp
in TN political parties are for Tamil medium edu only. And most of their staff will know nothing .In a country which lacks leadership and attitude , you cannot blame Brahmins. They held important post.(Nehru was an atheist.Is it correct to call him Brahmin...If he was not willing why shud we do ?)But any action should be politically/economically feasible for implementation in our country . If you argue for more reservation based on caste its feasible. If you ask for gud education its not. If you demand more money in the name of scholarship though its based on caste its possible. Our mindset is , if there is a railway budget with no fair hike we will praise the minister. We dont demand for better and faster connectivity across regions. With such mindset I am sorry we can only M.Cauley system not R&D oriented system.
We can have only Infosys or wipro not Google or M.S.

I never said Brahmins weren't creative, just that Brahmins have an exceptional memory which gives them an edge over others.

We can't even implement regular schemes, do you think these 'special ways' can ever be put in place? Let's be realistic.

Not really, but then again, brahmins have held important positions and their indifference to these matters annoys me greatly. Even the first PM was Brahmin.

We never tire of giving excuses. Many brahmins have been in important positions, what did they do? Someone on this forum suggested that brahmins like Sekhar (happy to be in the party that arrested the most important brahmin), Visu (just a movie star), Swamy and Cho (they change their minds as easily as most ppl change their clothes) should take the lead in matters pertaining to brahmins.:der: It made me LOL.

Bottom line, it's all well to complain that we are just 3%, but when we DO get the chance, we mess things up. Similar to hindus complaining about mughal rule darkness, but even after hindus become free, they still continue mughal policies such as looting temples, appeasing minorities etc. This is a peculiar attitude of the hindus and brahmins, and I can't understand it at all.

Theriyalaye Pa!:rockon:

 

[kashyap]

India defeated Srilanka and mukesh ambani owes 10% of his wealth to me.

Very funny ! yet another comic thread.
The only sad part is the comedy has become so trite now that it is such a tragedy.

Rote based learning—may be true for English literature and history and tamil literature
So you can keep your reservation there ( though it should be reduced to less than 50%)

Regarding engineering, IT etc, rote never helps. You gotta use your analytical capabilities.
So the context itself is wrong
Also the concept itself is wrong. If the concept of justifying reservation for self in a field because others are more capable in the field is right then the following are also right:

Whites should demand reservation of atleast 40% of the medals in the Olympics athletics section because the blacks are far superior physically than them

Me and maruti can walk upto Mukesh Amabani and say since your father has given you so much of wealth , which is didpropportionate according to us and you need to give 40% of that to the poor in India, 20 % to maruti and 10% to kashyap and you can keep the rest 30% for yourself. ( See maruti , you are getting a higher share than me. I am being more than fair ).

Thanks for all your replies.

And I don't really like the thing about special training. It is kinda discriminatory, it makes children feel inferior.:twitch:

Lazy people will always feel inferior. No matter how much you help them. They will find a way to feel inferior because they really don’t want to use their brains constructively.

People should stop imitating politicians like karu, veera and other such and start emulating stalwarts like Shiv Nadar and Azim Premji(a muslim). They are from the reserved category too. Go and ask if they have reservation in the companies they own and out of which they make so much of money.

And before someone brings in the concept of reservation based on higher population,
(as they have done before in these forums), let me add that if that can be justified, then the result of the India Srilanka match should be rewritten. Since India is a more populous country, How can they say it has lost? It is a wrong decision. It is enough if we scored just 150 runs against Srilanka’s 254 ( BTW did we alteast score that many?).
How good it would have been.



Ps: I have time and again said I am hard-pressed for time due to official and personal commitments. But once in a while I have to really squeeze time and post. So I will keep posting forever but as and when I get time and based on the priority I assign to a thread.
So don’t expect immediate responses , you need to be infinitely patient.

Also we have had infinite number of threads and postings on this wasting our time and energy and space. God only knows when these will stop to let us do some constructive work!

 

[NARAS]

sir - not only that! based on this 'social justice' principle pondicherry could demand more area from uttarpradesh till both of them become equal! singapore could demand that china should be sliced in to many smaller pieces till it becomes as small as singapore so that the principle of 'equality' is upheld.
caste quotas were born out of the foolish belief that specific inequalities can be abolished by legislation. initially, apologists of caste quotas argued that in a matter of few years, all inequaities will be abolished because of this reservations based on birth. but since this did not happen, they are now wailing that 5000 yrs. of inequality cannot be set right in 50 yrs.! caste quotas are born out of the same 'logic' as that of 'rationalism' & 'communism'. no wonder all these 'ideologies' were dismal flops all over the world!!