Puppets in the hands of?

[ShivKC]

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the puppets I mention here are the elite, western influenced, well educated,widely traveled T.B's, who subconsciously acts as a catalyst for conversions.

they work as puppets without knowing their voices are indirectly toned to dance to the tunes of their string master "The Missionary:

Missionary trick : find such select few elites and make them to spill venom on the caste system, only the caste system. make that elite brahmin as a tool to attack brahminism.

puppets voices are heard, because he himself is a brahmin. thats the job assigned to puppet no.1, and result is, he achieves to win 'caste system is wrong'

find another puppet no 2; the job assigned to him is to condemn all religions. since he or his audience knows only Hinduism , he puts Hinduism under the chopping board for public display. result, audience gets confused and convinced to believe that 'Hindu Religion is all bad'

once the audience are convinced through the horse's mouth that 'Varna is wrong & religion is bad, esp having heard from a fellow brahmin, and having got done 90% of the job through the puppet, the missionary steps in.

the ground having made clear, missionary pitches. now,the puppet may claim loud that he will never change his religion for ever,and, the missionary also doesn't bother to ask the puppet to change his religion, a smart move not to offend the puppet, who was once a good friend.

now,the puppets children are already convinced by his father's vision, that 'Varna is all wrong' and religion is all crap.

then the missionary steps in and say to the puppet's children,,, yes,your father is perfectly right, Varna is wrong, and the religion which varna holds is also wrong.

now, the children are quite happy to hear that their father is proved right, by the missionary.

having convinced the next pitch goes, why not try this new religion, which doesn't have any of those wrongs pointed by your father.

sounded convincing and the puppets children who were already living in a christian country, changed their religion the very next day. then followed the next generation one by one.

I am only cautioning here about the puppets of missionaries whose sole agenda is to proclaim 'No Religion' 'No Varna' (un knowingly)

Guaranteed the Puppets may not get converted, but they pave a finer way for the future generation. thats my worry here.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Shivkc,
It is too late to lament at this stage.The conversion (busines) from Hindu Faith to other Faiths
has started long time back.Now the target seems to be persons from Brahmin community..
Please refer to last para of my post No:83 in the thread"What is the reason for love/inter caste marriages" under "SOCIOLOGY".
It appears that Brahmins getting converted to Christianity will be allowed to retain their identity as
Brahmins outwardly as their children in susequent generations will become fulfledged Christians.
Please be rest assured that all Brahmins (except a few) and large majority of Hindus(other than Brahmins)
will not change their present faith.

 

[sangom]

the puppets I mention here are the elite, western influenced, well educated,widely traveled T.B's, who subconsciously acts as a catalyst for conversions.

they work as puppets without knowing their voices are indirectly toned to dance to the tunes of their string master "The Missionary:

Missionary trick : find such select few elites and make them to spill venom on the caste system, only the caste system. make that elite brahmin as a tool to attack brahminism.

puppets voices are heard, because he himself is a brahmin. thats the job assigned to puppet no.1, and result is, he achieves to win 'caste system is wrong'

find another puppet no 2; the job assigned to him is to condemn all religions. since he or his audience knows only Hinduism , he puts Hinduism under the chopping board for public display. result, audience gets confused and convinced to believe that 'Hindu Religion is all bad'

once the audience are convinced through the horse's mouth that 'Varna is wrong & religion is bad, esp having heard from a fellow brahmin, and having got done 90% of the job through the puppet, the missionary steps in.

the ground having made clear, missionary pitches. now,the puppet may claim loud that he will never change his religion for ever,and, the missionary also doesn't bother to ask the puppet to change his religion, a smart move not to offend the puppet, who was once a good friend.

now,the puppets children are already convinced by his father's vision, that 'Varna is all wrong' and religion is all crap.

then the missionary steps in and say to the puppet's children,,, yes,your father is perfectly right, Varna is wrong, and the religion which varna holds is also wrong.

now, the children are quite happy to hear that their father is proved right, by the missionary.

having convinced the next pitch goes, why not try this new religion, which doesn't have any of those wrongs pointed by your father.

sounded convincing and the puppets children who were already living in a christian country, changed their religion the very next day. then followed the next generation one by one.

I am only cautioning here about the puppets of missionaries whose sole agenda is to proclaim 'No Religion' 'No Varna' (un knowingly)

Guaranteed the Puppets may not get converted, but they pave a finer way for the future generation. thats my worry here.

Shri Shiv,

Either you are very afraid of Hindus or more influenced by the tempo and money-command of the proselytizers. I think Hindus will not make mass conversions a reality, unless they find their present lot inside the hindu fold to be too despicable and they also will not believe blindly in the promise of equality brandished by the missionary.

Now, why is it that some people find their position within hinduism very humiliating? Because of the caste equations. It is another matter that even after converting to another religion the ghost of caste may not stop pursuing these souls who convert.

What gives rise to the caste equations within hinduism? I hold that it is the scriptures. And who have historically taken credit for every scripture? Some brahman or, in very rare cases, some other dvija. Has this caste system "worked" in the past? Yes. Then will it not work in future? No.

And that, I think is where, we have to think afresh about our religion, scriptures, caste system, brahman-superiority (because here in this forum we can consider only that) etc.

You seem to think that the missionaries are behind every opinion expressed here which does not agree with yours. That is mere phobia. Let us not give ourselves to such phobia and try our best to see how our religion can be reformed.

Incidentally, from Krishna to Christu is not a very difficult change. So if we can adore Krishna we may also adore Christu, can we not?

Note: I know, now you are confirmed in your view that I am puppet #0 (even better than puppet #1, is it not?) of the missionary "poochandi".

 

[ShivKC]

Please be rest assured that all Brahmins (except a few) and large majority of Hindus(other than Brahmins)
will not change their present faith.

sh.krishnamurthy, my worry is not only based on those who live abroad. its very much evident from this same forum.

after repeated indoctrinating posts pricking about Caste, it was one persons job here before.


soon after few months, a person who once claimed as a protector of vedas has now changed the mind and started condemning vedas and scriptures and brahmins, for Caste..

look at the change of minds happening the this very forum here itself. puppets first objective is done.

few months down the line, you will find few more followers here, who are going to say "Religion is all bad'. already smokes have started coming in.

And look huge number of the viewers this forum has. all will get indoctrinated this way, and their children will soon fall prey .

in one way, i am forced to support the conservatives here , off late though.. casteism has its own benefit, it has helped people to stay within the hindu fold, atleast for their identity sake, they all stayed in.

if once caste is broken, every one easily fall in to the hands of other religions.

 

[ShivKC]

Shri Shiv,


Note: I know, now you are confirmed in your view that I am puppet #0 (even better than puppet #1, is it not?) o.

sh.sangom, rest assured, this puppet analogy is not to point fingers at any one. lets not take this discussion to a personal level.

i am only pointing at the growing trends of targeting brahminism/caste in scriptures/ fun out of smritis and off late religion is all bad kinds.

in the last 5 months of my stay, i can see the change of minds in few forum members in line with this. thats my concern.

once again i request you no to take this to a personal level.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shivkc,

I do not think Hinduism will ever sucuumb to external forces. It is like an enlightened person with immense inner strength who has transcended the influences of force. In a similar manner hinduism is resilient enough to survive and come out with greater strength on assaults such as from the missionaries.

It is my conviction that some great personality will emerge and champion its cause and reaffirm its teachings now and then , most likely at the right times. It faced the onslaught of buddhism when Adi Sankara appeared on the scene to revive it and that will happen again to save it from the onslaught of materialism. The spiritual legacy passed on, not only in the form of knowledge but also as supernatural capabilities should make happenings such as above possible. Spirituality is after all about conquering time and so is the message of hinduism.

 

[sangom]

sh.sangom, rest assured, this puppet analogy is not to point fingers at any one. lets not take this discussion to a personal level.

i am only pointing at the growing trends of targeting brahminism/caste in scriptures/ fun out of smritis and off late religion is all bad kinds.

in the last 5 months of my stay, i can see the change of minds in few forum members in line with this. thats my concern.

once again i request you no to take this to a personal level.

Shri Shiv,

Since you made references to certain members, one by stating their povs, (e.g., "a person who once claimed as a protector of vedas has now changed the mind and started condemning vedas and scriptures and brahmins, for Caste") I thought your comments arose from a consideration about the membership of this forum and their individual view points. Of course such remarks are personal and I leave it to the moderators to decide. So, I said - or tried to say in an indirect way - that AFAIK no one here seems to be influenced by missionary propaganda. But Hinduism being an unorganised and extremely nebulous concept - covering an immense range of beliefs, rites, rituals, texts, customs and above all povs - coupled with large amount of freedom to criticize and dissent, there arises a feeling sometimes that some are talking against it, when one finds that it goes against one's own pet beliefs and pov.

The main reasons for the caste problem surfacing again and again in this forum seems, to me, to be the strong views held by some members like (1) that the reservation system is inequitable, (2) that the "Brahmanic" way of life has to be preserved, (3) that only a "Brahman" of some sorts - even an Sc/ST has to be given the "poonal" ceremony and initiated into "dvija" category before he can be accepted as qualified for study and recitation of vedas and should follow whatever the Brahmans hold as sacrosanct ways of living (but themselves rarely adhere to, probably because the rule makers are above rules!).

I feel all such claims will only lead once again to an anti-Brahman wave and what little consideration we now get as decent individuals, but not as a community, will also vanish if we go on blaming reservations, DK/DMK, insist on any sort of Brahman legacy as not attainable or unapproachable to NBs or SCs or STs. My opinion is "Let us throw open all that we dearly hold on to as our own and no one else's" and then I feel the discrimination against Brahmins will cease to a large extent, though not on the political front.

I started the thread "Let us familiarise with Rigveda" exactly with this pov because, in the web-world at least, there is no caste division. It is not to protect the vedas from the NBs but to disseminate what it contains and to tell the world that there is nothing super-human in it.

If our members will feel at home and equal with all other castes of the Hindu world, and say and post in this forum (I am not advocating hypocrisy here but I feel this forum by itself has limited ability to incite or induce people to do anything.), or at least do not say or post on those lines described above, (items 1 to 3), I do not think the opposite side, which you describe as "puppets" of missionary - may be that includes me as well - will not of their own accord come and shout here.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Puppets do not have class like "elite', they cannot be and need not be educated, they are not widely traveled, but rather widely transported, as they are not educatable, they cannot be influenced either. They can be only string-pulled. There are many unwitting volunteers. In spite of many expositions, people cannot be educated that faith cannot be changed; these people can convert only people for they knew not what is faith from the day one. A majority of the world population continues to think that religion is tradeable and marketable for ultimate gains.

 

[saarangam]

Dear ShivKC

sh.krishnamurthy, my worry is not only based on those who live abroad. its very much evident from this same forum.after repeated indoctrinating posts pricking about Caste, it was one persons job here before.soon after few months, a person who once claimed as a protector of vedas has now changed the mind and started condemning vedas and scriptures and brahmins, for Caste.. look at the change of minds happening the this very forum here itself. puppets first objective is done.few months down the line, you will find few more followers here, who are going to say "Religion is all bad'. already smokes have started coming in.And look huge number of the viewers this forum has. all will get indoctrinated this way, and their children will soon fall prey .
in one way, i am forced to support the conservatives here , off late though.. casteism has its own benefit, it has helped people to stay within the hindu fold, atleast for their identity sake, they all stayed in. if once caste is broken, every one easily fall in to the hands of other religions.

Some members in this forum express their views on religion, scriptures etc.which may not be in conformity to the views of the conservatives.So long as this forum is open to all who have a concern for Tamizh Brahmins such contradicting pov s are bound to manifest.The reformists and liberalists are expressing their views only to strengthen the community even though these may not be palatable to the orthodox.It is like a homoeo doctor giving sweet glucose pills and an allapath giving a bitter- tasting tablet. Both of them are equally concened about the well being of the patient. Isn't it?
IMHO to refer to the members of this forum as puppets in the hands of the missionaries is not in good taste.All the members are well read and well educated.So expressing a skepticism that all of them would be indoctrinated to the extend of converting to Christianity is indeed an indirect allusion that they are incapable of making their own judgements and would be carried away by the postings of the reformists. Actually IMO
it is the orthodox people who are being carried away by the priests, gurus etc. and they are intolerant to anything expressed against their deep rooted convictions.

regards

 

[sangom]

Dear ShivKC

Some members in this forum express their views on religion, scriptures etc.which may not be in conformity to the views of the conservatives.So long as this forum is open to all who have a concern for Tamizh Brahmins such contradicting pov s are bound to manifest.The reformists and liberalists are expressing their views only to strengthen the community even though these may not be palatable to the orthodox.It is like a homoeo doctor giving sweet glucose pills and an allapath giving a bitter- tasting tablet. Both of them are equally concened about the well being of the patient. Isn't it?
IMHO to refer to the members of this forum as puppets in the hands of the missionaries is not in good taste.All the members are well read and well educated.So expressing a skepticism that all of them would be indoctrinated to the extend of converting to Christianity is indeed an indirect allusion that they are incapable of making their own judgements and would be carried away by the postings of the reformists. Actually IMO
it is the orthodox people who are being carried away by the priests, gurus etc. and they are intolerant to anything expressed against their deep rooted convictions.

regards

Shri Saarangam,

It is a usual weapon in the hands of some members to "attack" the posters when their ammunition to attack the posts or their contents is exhausted. Probably the moderator, in his daytime (he is in US) will see and offer his decision.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri ShivKC Ji,

I am a NRI. I am not a Christian nor do I find any other religion's philosophy attractive to my own concept of Hinduism.

You have mentioned in a post to Sri Sangom Ji not to take this to a personal level. Yet, given the description you have given above to these'puppets' seem to describe myself. I think every NRI in this Forum would feel the same way. You can not say, 'those in that house that wear white shirts are all hooligans' and when a person from that house wearing a white shirt approaches you, say 'don't take this to a personal level'.

Sri Saarangam Ji's posting above exactly mirrors my view point.

Obviously you hold very orthodox views of Hinduism. That is okay. You have the right to them. I will never question yours or anyone else's right to hold those views and practice Hinduism the way you want to practice. In fact, I would defend them as long as they are legal.

But you don't seem to share this ideal. It seems to me that you think that Hinduism starts and ends with Purva Mimamsa. We have several paths open to us as Hindus (thank God for that) to attain Moksha and you seem to forget that and tend to view those who hold different views as 'traitors' to our religion and express it. And this is offensive.

As I have said before, people in this Forum who have the Tamil Brahmin heritage, despite their views are Tamil Brahmins, and sorry, this Forum is for all those folks, including you.

Your view that somehow reading the threads here one would suddenly abandon orthodoxy and will become 'indoctrinated' against caste etc. is, not logical. Those who find value and comfort in their current practice of Hinduism will never abandon it. Those who do not will think and change their views, but will still practice Hinduism. Actually it is again offensive to our Forum readers that they will change their religion just because of some folks here express the view that casteism is bad for Hinduism. You must think that our audience is that gullible!

Religion is a personal choice. Look at the reasons Hindus change religions. Saying casteism is the problem within Hinduism is not one of them. So, with your logic of reinforcing casteism, there should be less conversions! Is that it?

I do not understand the motive of this thread. Is it to excoriate others because of their view? What do you want to convey, other than calling others 'puppets' and lamenting the fact that their ideas lead to conversions to Christianity, both of which you can not substantiate, let alone argue convincingly on an intellectual level.

Based on your response, I will decide as a Moderator what I will do with this thread.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

shivKC,

why would you not address the honourable members by their names, instead of resorting to innuendos.

i think you need to list the issues troubling you, face them head on and either find validity in them or understand that they are phantoms built on your fears, and which needs to be exorcised.

innuendos, by their very nature, lack civility. i suspect that you do not consider those of us who digress from your views, as ones who have feelings for our religion. or our heritage.

i suspect, that by upsetting the apple cart as you see it, we are paving the waying for abrahamization of india?

you have taken a mighty burden on yourself, as by inference, it means that only you and those of your ilk are capable of 'saving' india and hinduism from the alien hordes - maybe it is of thought or word or sword.

personally i feel sorry for you, for you must be troubled by this day in and day out. atleast i used to, in days of yore, when my thinking was much similar to your current position. fortunately, the human learns, and over a period of time, outgrows certain fears and settles down to peace with his surroundings.

i wish you peace soon.

 

[sravna]

Dear Members,

Hindus, more specifically brahmins, in recent times have been existing as two distinct camps. It is my opinion that we need both the camps for the good of hinduism. The one being the conservatives go by all that is said in the vedas and adhere to traditional values. The other being the reformists want to question, analyse and do away with what doesn't conform with the times. One is timeless and the other is being with the times. Something is timeless only because it is being with the times, though always. The job of the reformists is to modify the form but retain the content to suit that particular time . The reformists should not in their zeal for reform try to do away with what should endure. That is the job of the conservatives, to keep emphasizing the enduring values. It augurs well that we have a good mix of both in this forum which I think would be representative of the hindus.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir,

The main reasons for the caste problem surfacing again and again in this forum seems, to me, to be the strong views held by some members like (1) that the reservation system is inequitable, (2) that the "Brahmanic" way of life has to be preserved, (3) that only a "Brahman" of some sorts - even an Sc/ST has to be given the "poonal" ceremony and initiated into "dvija" category before he can be accepted as qualified for study and recitation of vedas and should follow whatever the Brahmans hold as sacrosanct ways of living (but themselves rarely adhere to, probably because the rule makers are above rules!).

(1)Reservation system is indeed inequitable in that the 'dominant castes' have openly included themselves also in the list of eligible beneficiaries. A novel equalizing system(as it was originally intended to be) has thus been converted into a rewarding system distributing rewards to the tormentors. In the world perhaps this is the only country in which such blatant injustices can be implemented by parliament and hailed as social revolution by the intelligentsia which is in a permanent stupor.What more! those who have the guts to call a spade a spade are singled out as brahmanists and warned about the consequences!! Now Sir, please tell me what is wrong in my pov.
(2) Sir, you have to make yourself clear first as to what you mean by "brahmanic way of life" to be sure about your understanding of the POV of the socalled "orthodox brahmins". Will you please elaborate? When you do that you may get to know how far removed are you from a correct and proper understanding of the POV of these "Orthodox brahmins"
(3)These are days of internet.Do you sincerely believe that there are restrictions on anyone studying or reciting vedas? So it boils down to the hard fact that, reformers are more interested in making the "orthodox brahmins" come crawling on all their fours, eat crow or grass, and declare in some grand way that vedas can be recited by every one, that they can be learned by all etc etc. It is rather a perverse satisfaction that is aimed at and not a utilitarian goal useful to anybody. So the arguments have to go on for ever.Ever and ever until all the brahmins are converted into donkeys, as I said elsewhere. My humble suggestion here is that let us leave all this. Time is the greatest alchemist that does wonders which are not possible by the human race on its own efforts in its billions of years of existence.Let us publish all vedas in internet as you have been doing. Let those who are interested learn them recite them etc. But dont insist on a poor purohit who goes from house to house with his bunch of "darbai" or a learned Veda pandithan to come before a riotous, jeering crowd and declare that he is ready to convert.

I feel all such claims will only lead once again to an anti-Brahman wave and what little consideration we now get as decent individuals, but not as a community, will also vanish if we go on blaming reservations, DK/DMK, insist on any sort of Brahman legacy as not attainable or unapproachable to NBs or SCs or STs. My opinion is "Let us throw open all that we dearly hold on to as our own and no one else's" and then I feel the discrimination against Brahmins will cease to a large extent, though not on the political front.

Even if brahmins do as you propose do you think others will accept it? In one stroke you are asking for something which will take away the reason for the existence of many political parties, which will affect the economic interests of the most powerful sections of the society and which will again place the brahmins in the vanguard of the society's march towards a glorious future.Politics is inextricably tied to the underlying societal faultlines in TN. We cannot wish it away that easily.

I started the thread "Let us familiarise with Rigveda" exactly with this pov because, in the web-world at least, there is no caste division. It is not to protect the vedas from the NBs but to disseminate what it contains and to tell the world that there is nothing super-human in it.

You did a most sensible thing.Vedas will not vanish whatever people may do to them.Disseminating knowledge is always welcome. When you tell the forum members that there is nothing superhuman about the vedas, that is an icing added by you which may be taken or rejected by the reader using his own faculties. It will be just your POV.

If our members will feel at home and equal with all other castes of the Hindu world, and say and post in this forum (I am not advocating hypocrisy here but I feel this forum by itself has limited ability to incite or induce people to do anything.), or at least do not say or post on those lines described above, (items 1 to 3), I do not think the opposite side, which you describe as "puppets" of missionary - may be that includes me as well - will not of their own accord come and shout here.

This is a point you are making. And here is the counter point as I see it: As long as the members with reform as a blinding passion come here and give their 'revolutionary' views addressing all and sundry as "orthodox" "Brahmanists" etc, the sane and balanced elements from the reading membership will come here to counter/challenge them by presenting the "other view" irrespective of whether it is called 'shouting' or 'lamenting' or simply 'mouthing gibberish'. Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

My humble suggestion here is that let us leave all this. Time is the greatest alchemist that does wonders which are not possible by the human race on its own efforts in its billions of years of existence.

Dear Shri Raju,

I am at a loss to understand what my response to your post ought to be. I, therefore, choose the above suggestion given by you. Hope you concur with this decision.

 

[sangom]

Dear Members,

Hindus, more specifically brahmins, in recent times have been existing as two distinct camps. It is my opinion that we need both the camps for the good of hinduism. The one being the conservatives go by all that is said in the vedas and adhere to traditional values. The other being the reformists want to question, analyse and do away with what doesn't conform with the times. One is timeless and the other is being with the times. Something is timeless only because it is being with the times, though always. The job of the reformists is to modify the form but retain the content to suit that particular time . The reformists should not in their zeal for reform try to do away with what should endure. That is the job of the conservatives, to keep emphasizing the enduring values. It augurs well that we have a good mix of both in this forum which I think would be representative of the hindus.

Dear Shri Sravna,

I agree that members here - that is the only thing of which I have some infirmation/impression and so I will limit my observations to that group only - can be broadly divided into "no-changers" and "pro-changers". The no-changers (NCs), IMO, are not truly for no-change, nor are they orthodox or conservative in the strict sense of the term. They have also changed in many ways along with the entire community, in matters of religion and are most probably changing now too. But they feel it difficult to concede that change can be consciously and intelligently made, or else they are reluctant to say so openly. (I may cite the example of some young children who, when being taught the alphabets, will say "அம்மா" சொல்லமாட்டேன், "ஆடு" சொல்லமாட்டேன் (I won't say 'amma'; I won't say 'ADu', etc.)) These Ncs are in a similar stage, I feel. They go on changing but, nevertheless, try to give an auto-suggestion that they are still living true to the saastras and scriptures by refusing to accept that change can be good if done wisely; for this they grab one or two items like sandhyavandanam, aavani avittam, tarpanam, or some things like that and say that if everyone performs these few listed items "brAhmaNyam" will be preserved in the world, universal peace will come automatically and so on. It is like sitting in a moving vehicle and trying to prove to yourself that your position is not changing by clasping on to something within it.

The pro-changers (PCs), on the other hand, say that we are anyway changing and so why not take some conscious steps to derive maximum benefits from changes? Take for example the issue of anti-brahmanism in TN. If only the tabras (and their then leadership) been intelligent enough to take conscious steps to include the vast NB groups also in the government job market instead of being avaricious, reached out to the lowest strata of people, at the brahman community level, taking the cue from Bharathiar, etc., at the proper moment, the anti-brahman wave might not have been possible at all, or at least it would have been a very muted one.

So, I feel the empty orthodoxy and conservatism displayed by some of the members here is not really conducive to the future well-being of the tabras: it is at best a handicap and at worst, an obstruction. If there are still any tabras living today who perform all the rites and rituals prescribed for Brahmanas, who take up only the occupations prescribed for brahmanas and are content to lead such simple lives as they can, from out of the limited earnings from those occupations, by all means it is the duty of the rest of us so-called brahmans (and perhaps other hindus also) to ensure that these brahmans are not disturbed, and to give whatever support is possible for us to give. But, having said that, let me make it clear that people who have taken up better-paying service jobs, earned well and have made provision for a cushy old age, cannot claim to be brahmans by taking up residence in some agraharam, doing sandhya as and when it is convenient, and generally leading a materialistic life, and with limited knowledge of Sanskrit, cannot claim to have become role models for true Brahmanas.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

I agree that members here - that is the only thing of which I have some infirmation/impression and so I will limit my observations to that group only - can be broadly divided into "no-changers" and "pro-changers". The no-changers (NCs), IMO, are not truly for no-change, nor are they orthodox or conservative in the strict sense of the term. They have also changed in many ways along with the entire community, in matters of religion and are most probably changing now too. But they feel it difficult to concede that change can be consciously and intelligently made, or else they are reluctant to say so openly. (I may cite the example of some young children who, when being taught the alphabets, will say "அம்மா" சொல்லமாட்டேன், "ஆடு" சொல்லமாட்டேன் (I won't say 'amma'; I won't say 'ADu', etc.)) These Ncs are in a similar stage, I feel. They go on changing but, nevertheless, try to give an auto-suggestion that they are still living true to the saastras and scriptures by refusing to accept that change can be good if done wisely; for this they grab one or two items like sandhyavandanam, aavani avittam, tarpanam, or some things like that and say that if everyone performs these few listed items "brAhmaNyam" will be preserved in the world, universal peace will come automatically and so on. It is like sitting in a moving vehicle and trying to prove to yourself that your position is not changing by clasping on to something within it.

The pro-changers (PCs), on the other hand, say that we are anyway changing and so why not take some conscious steps to derive maximum benefits from changes? Take for example the issue of anti-brahmanism in TN. If only the tabras (and their then leadership) been intelligent enough to take conscious steps to include the vast NB groups also in the government job market instead of being avaricious, reached out to the lowest strata of people, at the brahman community level, taking the cue from Bharathiar, etc., at the proper moment, the anti-brahman wave might not have been possible at all, or at least it would have been a very muted one.

So, I feel the empty orthodoxy and conservatism displayed by some of the members here is not really conducive to the future well-being of the tabras: it is at best a handicap and at worst, an obstruction. If there are still any tabras living today who perform all the rites and rituals prescribed for Brahmanas, who take up only the occupations prescribed for brahmanas and are content to lead such simple lives as they can, from out of the limited earnings from those occupations, by all means it is the duty of the rest of us so-called brahmans (and perhaps other hindus also) to ensure that these brahmans are not disturbed, and to give whatever support is possible for us to give. But, having said that, let me make it clear that people who have taken up better-paying service jobs, earned well and have made provision for a cushy old age, cannot claim to be brahmans by taking up residence in some agraharam, doing sandhya as and when it is convenient, and generally leading a materialistic life, and with limited knowledge of Sanskrit, cannot claim to have become role models for true Brahmanas.

Dear Shri Sangom,

One cannot ignore the influence of society totally and has to be in conformity with it to an extent. In a overwhelmingly materialistic world, you cannot totally do away with all that is material. The important point is, as long as the no changers have conviction in the what the scriptures say and are morally upright, their materialistic lifestyle should be treated as borne more out of compulsion and necessity than due to their inclination.

The pro changers on the other hand should indeed press for changes. These changes should be against the side effects that crop up now and then and which are not in the true spirit of the scriptures such as caste practices and which should be done away with. But the concern here for the no changers is whether such a movement towards change is directed towards the very core of the scriptures and the motives of those who gave it.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir,

//I am at a loss to understand what my response to your post ought to be. I, therefore, choose the above suggestion given by you. Hope you concur with this decision.//

In response to your assertions I had raised some questions. It is your choice-whether you want to answer or not. Only the members who read all this would have been disappointed as these are questions which arise in the minds of the reading public as they go through your post.I know that my concurring or not concurring does not really matter.Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir,

I agree that members here - that is the only thing of which I have some infirmation/impression and so I will limit my observations to that group only - can be broadly divided into "no-changers" and "pro-changers". The no-changers (NCs), IMO, are not truly for no-change, nor are they orthodox or conservative in the strict sense of the term. They have also changed in many ways along with the entire community, in matters of religion and are most probably changing now too. But they feel it difficult to concede that change can be consciously and intelligently made, or else they are reluctant to say so openly. (I may cite the example of some young children who, when being taught the alphabets, will say "I won't say 'amma'; I won't say 'ADu', etc." These Ncs are in a similar stage, I feel. They go on changing but, nevertheless, try to give an auto-suggestion that they are still living true to the saastras and scriptures by refusing to accept that change can be good if done wisely; for this they grab one or two items like sandhyavandanam, aavani avittam, tarpanam, or some things like that and say that if everyone performs these few listed items "brAhmaNyam" will be preserved in the world, universal peace will come automatically and so on. It is like sitting in a moving vehicle and trying to prove to yourself that your position is not changing by clasping on to something within it.

The pro-changers (PCs), on the other hand, say that we are anyway changing and so why not take some conscious steps to derive maximum benefits from changes? Take for example the issue of anti-brahmanism in TN. If only the tabras (and their then leadership) been intelligent enough to take conscious steps to include the vast NB groups also in the government job market instead of being avaricious, reached out to the lowest strata of people, at the brahman community level, taking the cue from Bharathiar, etc., at the proper moment, the anti-brahman wave might not have been possible at all, or at least it would have been a very muted one.

While the first group(NC) is in a state of denial, the second group(PC) is in a state of total surrender-a surrender to an extent of being in a readiness to lose their identity completely.The most interesting point to note is that you have left out completely from the picture another group(MC-the middle group, MC for the sake of convenience), which is the majority and hence their opinion really matters. This group is very matured and balanced as against the first group(NC) which lives in its own make-believe world and as against the second group(PC) which is running here and there like a terrified chicken looking for the security, comfort etc., after giving up every thing that was once its identity, culture, individuality etc. etc.
They(MC) are sad to watch the small crowd of NC at one end lecturing to them about meaningless rituals shorn of their essence with empty pride and elephant size ego which do not fit them well. They are sympathetic to this group because they are people who are unable to grow transcending their circumstances. At the other end there is this group(PC) which is putting up a lot of pretensions, mouthing empty rhetoric, putting up a brave front saying they are ready to shake hands even with the Ghost which is really their master.The MC is wary of this second group because it is this group which is very dangerous. In the name of change what they want is a complete loss of identity. A complete voluntary surrender of every thing to the demanding ghost. And they are hanging a carrot before every one while holding a stick in their hand. The carrot is a promised tranquility. The stick conveys a threat of complete isolation and misery. The MC fortunately is able to see through the game. They are very wise and would like to keep this group(PC) at safe distance and under constant check. Given a chance they would sell everything - and grant all "brahmins" saupaathika seshathvam, the seshi being the dominant castes, to use a few terms from Sri Vaishnava vocabulary.

So, I feel the empty orthodoxy and conservatism displayed by some of the members here is not really conducive to the future well-being of the tabras: it is at best a handicap and at worst, an obstruction. If there are still any tabras living today who perform all the rites and rituals prescribed for Brahmanas, who take up only the occupations prescribed for brahmanas and are content to lead such simple lives as they can, from out of the limited earnings from those occupations, by all means it is the duty of the rest of us so-called brahmans (and perhaps other hindus also) to ensure that these brahmans are not disturbed, and to give whatever support is possible for us to give. But, having said that, let me make it clear that people who have taken up better-paying service jobs, earned well and have made provision for a cushy old age, cannot claim to be brahmans by taking up residence in some agraharam, doing sandhya as and when it is convenient, and generally leading a materialistic life, and with limited knowledge of Sanskrit, cannot claim to have become role models for true Brahmanas.

Brahmins are as much aware as any other community that times are changing. They too change but at their own pace. They have been managing this change very efficiently.(Remember Aswaththaamaa was given the punishment of losing his kudumi and we have today in every brahmin an Aswaththaamaa) There is no need to pick up speed suddenly and end up dying in a crash. The brahmin community, which comprises of NCs, PCs and MCs, knows what it wants and will surely get it as the MCs are in majority. They are also aware that PCs and NCs are also part of the community and hence are giving them their space and time to evolve and do not find any problem handling this evolving situation. It is a painting which is just getting done in a beautiful symphony of colours and brahmins are enjoying every moment, every stroke of brush and every, myriad, pattern that emerges in it. If you do not want you need not reply to this. Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

While the first group(NC) is in a state of denial, the second group(PC) is in a state of total surrender-a surrender to an extent of being in a readiness to lose their identity completely.The most interesting point to note is that you have left out completely from the picture another group(MC-the middle group), which is the majority and hence their opinion only really matters. This group is very matured and balanced as against the first group which lives in its own make-believe world and as against the second group which is running here and there like a terrified chicken looking for the security, comfort etc., after giving up every thing that was once its identity, culture, individuality etc. etc.
They are sad to watch the small crowd of NC at one end lecturing to them about meaningless rituals shorn of their essence, empty pride and elephant size ego which do not fit them well. They are sympathetic to this group because they are people who are unable to grow transcending their circumstances. At the other end there is this group(PC) which is putting up a lot of pretensions, mouthing empty rhetoric, putting up a brave front saying they are ready to shake hands even with the Ghost which is really their master.The MC is wary of this second group because it is this group which is very dangerous. In the name of change what they want is a complete loss of identity. A complete voluntary surrender of every thing to the demanding ghost. And they are hanging a carrot before every one while holding a stick in their hand. The carrot is a promised tranquility. The stick is complete isolation and misery. The MC fortunately is able to see through the game. They are very wise and would like to keep this group(PC) at safe distance and under constant check. Given a chance they would sell everything - and grant all "brahmins" saupaathika seshathvam, the seshi being the dominant castes, to use a few terms from Sri Vaishnava vocabulary.



Brahmins are as much aware as any other community that times are changing. They too change but at their own pace. They have been managing this change very efficiently. There is no need to pick up speed suddenly and end up in a crash. The brahmin community which comprises of NCs, PCs and MCs knows what it wants and will get it as the MCs are in majority. They are also aware that PCs and NCs are also part of the community and hence are giving them their space and time to evolve and do not find any problem handling this evolving situation. It is a painting which is just getting painted in a beautiful symphony of colours and brahmins are enjoying every moment, every stroke and every, myriad, patatern in it. If you do not want you need not reply to this. Cheers.

Shri Raju,

The deficiency in my post, which I now realize, is that I just responded to Shri Sravna's classification into two categories - the conservatives and reformists - and said they are really NCs & PCs respectively. But even going by your post, "Surrender to the extent of losing their identity", "Brahmins are as much aware as any other community that times are changing. They too change but at their own pace. They have been managing this change very efficiently. There is no need to pick up speed suddenly and end up in a crash.", I consider the MCs as not a distinct category, separate from the PCs; perhaps we may say they are "slow PCs".

The PCs whom you describe as "are ready to shake hands even with the Ghost which is really their master", "very dangerous", "complete voluntary surrender of every thing to the demanding ghost. And they are hanging a carrot before every one while holding a stick in their hand. The carrot is a promised tranquility. The stick is complete isolation and misery.", etc., does not seem to me to be born out by facts. Your pov resembles that of some others who "smell a missionary" at the drop of a hat, so to say. I do not subscribe to that view. Even these people who seem to be shaking hands with the Devil (which is more correct, ghost or devil?) are aware of their identity as and not averse to be described as Brahmans; nor are they shaking hands more effusively with the devil IMO than those among the NCs or MCs who have a hypocritical attitude - present themselves here as NC or MC but follow whatever suits them in real life.

On the whole I am confident that if we imagine, for argument's sake, we hand over the reigns of directing the Tabra communities to a group of these PCs today, or tomorrow, and follow their guidelines instead of whatever the mutts or heads of the mutts or scriptures (it is a very unclear item - each one of us considering whatever suits the moment as valid scripture and rejecting the rest at one moment, and embracing one of those rejected items on another occasion, if it will help our stand!), I don't think any great harm will befall the community, except the changes which the MCs would in the natural course (i.e., the original arrangements) have accepted in their stride, nor do I think the PCs will insist upon sudden changes on pain of penalties; they will have to take the views of the vast majority of PCs - which you group as MCs - and go accordingly.

 

[saarangam]

They(MC) are sad to watch the small crowd of NC at one end lecturing to them about meaningless rituals shorn of their essence with empty pride and elephant size ego which do not fit them well. They are sympathetic to this group because they are people who are unable to grow transcending their circumstances.

Sri suraju
You have suggested that the NCs are lecturing about meaningless rituals shorn of their essence with empty pride and elephant size ego.Are they not holding a carrot
which is mOksham, sAyuUjyam etc.The PCs on the other hand are only suggesting to get rid of these meaningless rituals, many of them having no refernce in the vEdAs.Reading the various postings in this thread and in some similar threads, I find none of the PCs advise to cast away our brahmin identity.
In fact many of the NCs are just parroting what the self styled gurus and swamis tell them, as they have not taken any effort to learn Sanskrit and understand what is in our scriptures.The PCs in this forum, though small in number, have a fair knowledge of Sanskrit and they are presenting what actually is the content of our scriptures.I don't subscribe to your view that they are shaking hands with the 'ghost' and are dangerous.If members like you feel that the postings of the PCs are highly explosive and catastrophic, they have the freedom to skip those posts.
Members like me who are interested in learning about vedAs etc. would welcome these posts.
regards

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Saarangam:

You have suggested that the NCs are lecturing about meaningless rituals shorn of their essence with empty pride and elephant size ego.Are they not holding a carrot which is mOksham, sAyuUjyam etc.The PCs on the other hand are only suggesting to get rid of these meaningless rituals, many of them having no refernce in the vEdAs.Reading the various postings in this thread and in some similar threads, I find none of the PCs advise to cast away our brahmin identity.

Moksham and Saayujyam have meaning only to those who seek them or are after them. Whereas the promise of a utopian tranquility in a "brahmin'less society is invariably accompanied by threats of isolation and catastrophe. These threats are held out by the PCs to nudge the MCs to the position of PCs.Pcs advocate getting rid of not only the empty rituals but also the whole idea of a certain culture and customs. They do not see the good part of these customs and culture. They recommend to get rid of the bathtub, bathwater and the baby all together.This is the problem with PCs.

In fact many of the NCs are just parroting what the self styled gurus and swamis tell them, as they have not taken any effort to learn Sanskrit and understand what is in our scriptures.The PCs in this forum, though small in number, have a fair knowledge of Sanskrit and they are presenting what actually is the content of our scriptures.I don't subscribe to your view that they are shaking hands with the 'ghost' and are dangerous.If members like you feel that the postings of the PCs are highly explosive and catastrophic, they have the freedom to skip those posts.

Those PCs in this forum whom you are referring to appear to be well versed in Sanskrit. But I am of the view that knowing Sanskrit is not a prerequisite to understand vedas and upanishads.These are all available in many other languages and if you are interested in knowing what they contain, a knowledge of just English would do. If you know Tamil it would be excellent. I notice a certain amount of intellectual arrogance in people who dismiss those who do not know Sanskrit as not worthy of any discussion about vedas. I am of the view that a language is just the medium. It is just the vehicle to reach a destination. If we spend too much of our time on washing, polishing, dusting and finally appreciating the vehicle we will not reach our destination. About skipping those posts, I think your advice is gratuitous. I read them to know the counter points to my views. Then I come here to exchange my views with those diametrically opposite views all in my search for the truth. I will not skip those posts of PCs. Neither will I stop critically looking at them and writing about them. Thank you.

Members like me who are interested in learning about vedAs etc. would welcome these posts.

I did not object to this!!
Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir,

I consider the MCs as not a distinct category, separate from the PCs; perhaps we may say they are "slow PCs". Even PCs who seem to be shaking hands with the Devil (which is more correct, ghost or devil?) are aware of their identity as and not averse to be described as Brahmans; nor are they shaking hands more effusively with the devil IMO than those among the NCs or MCs who have a hypocritical attitude - present themselves here as NC or MC but follow whatever suits them in real life. On the whole I am confident that if we imagine, for argument's sake, we hand over the reigns of directing the Tabra communities to a group of these PCs today, or tomorrow, and follow their guidelines instead of whatever the mutts or heads of the mutts or scriptures (it is a very unclear item - each one of us considering whatever suits the moment as valid scripture and rejecting the rest at one moment, and embracing one of those rejected items on another occasion, if it will help our stand!), I don't think any great harm will befall the community, except the changes which the MCs would in the natural course (i.e., the original arrangements) have accepted in their stride, nor do I think the PCs will insist upon sudden changes on pain of penalties; they will have to take the views of the vast majority of PCs - which you group as MCs - and go accordingly.

I think I have to elaborate what I mean by MCs.
VedasI as a MC am clear in my understanding that vedas are not meaningless nonsense. Since they have their origin in times which are in the ancient past, they may and do contain certain ideas which do not make sense to the present world. With respect to these ideas my position is that, well, I am not ashamed or uncomfortable admitting that my ancestors' had this kind of a thought process. It is just that they perhaps thought it that way which was natural to their times. But I look at many other things they have said which are simply beautiful and unimaginable elsewhere in the world at their times. So I respect vedas. With respect to some rituals in them I will not just follow them because they do not suit me now and I do not need them either. But I do not think that my ancestors were fools or perverts to have written about such rituals. I am not interested in passing such value judgments.I take what is necessary for me and leave others without condemning them. I do not prescribe them to others either.
CastesAbout castes I have written enough in this forum. Briefly stating, my position is that Castes served a certain purpose in ancient times and as time progressed it was turned into an instrument of exploitation. I strongly believe that brahmins are not responsible for this solely. Rather I believe Brahmins have suffered maximum next to panchamans in the name of castes. And I think it has more to do with politics, power and vital economic interests than with social justice.
ReservationReservation(in its present form which includes reservation for castes other than SC/ST) in India is not equitable,not democratic and is a fraud perpetrated on the nation.Nation's scarce resources are frittered away through reservations by rewarding the tormentors for 'a job well done'.
For the present these are enough I think.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,

I think I have to elaborate what I mean by MCs.
VedasI as a MC am clear in my understanding that vedas are not meaningless nonsense. Since they have their origin in times which are in the ancient past, they may and do contain certain ideas which do not make sense to the present world. With respect to these ideas my position is that, well, I am not ashamed or uncomfortable admitting that my ancestors' had this kind of a thought process. It is just that they perhaps thought it that way which was natural to their times. But I look at many other things they have said which are simply beautiful and unimaginable elsewhere in the world at their times. So I respect vedas. With respect to some rituals in them I will not just follow them because they do not suit me now and I do not need them either. But I do not think that my ancestors were fools or perverts to have written about such rituals. I am not interested in passing such value judgments.I take what is necessary for me and leave others without condemning them. I do not prescribe them to others either.
CastesAbout castes I have written enough in this forum. Briefly stating, my position is that Castes served a certain purpose in ancient times and as time progressed it was turned into an instrument of exploitation. I strongly believe that brahmins are not responsible for this solely. Rather I believe Brahmins have suffered maximum next to panchamans in the name of castes. And I think it has more to do with politics, power and vital economic interests than with social justice.
ReservationReservation(in its present form which includes reservation for castes other than SC/ST) in India is not equitable,not democratic and is a fraud perpetrated on the nation.Nation's scarce resources are frittered away through reservations by rewarding the tormentors for 'a job well done'.
For the present these are enough I think.

Dear Shri Raju,

If you ask my views on the three points above, those are as under:

1. Vedas
Ialso don'tsaythat the vedas are utter nonsense from beginning to end. But my stand is that, unlike what majority of tabras still like to believe, the vedas do not have any superhuman origin (apauruṣeyatva). I am in agreement with you that many of the verses in the rigveda have great poetical imagination and very high metrical beauty. But I won't put all the four vedas in the same grade. The yajurveda is very much of an inferior grade if I may say so, compared to the rigveda; samaveda, is mostly rigveda set to certain musical intonation and so can be considered as good as rigveda while atharvanaveda is a later inclusion and is an enigma so to say.

I do not have "respect" for the vedas if you mean the word respect to be the same as respect for my father/mother/teacher etc.; I regard them as ancient treatises and valuable in that sense only.

2. Castes

Since this has probably been 'overdiscussed' in this forum, I am not again going into a lengthy post setting out my views about it. Suffice to say that I do not agree with the statement "Rather I believe Brahmins have suffered maximum next to panchamans in the name of castes." Brahmans have, even from the pov of some of the members here, suffered at the longest for 80 or 90 years whereas the Sudras and pancamas have suffered for thousand years or even more, IMO, and that too there is no comparison between the perceived "sufferings" of the Brahmans during the last 80 or 90 years (which is only the loss of crown - superiority) whereas for the Sudras and dalits it has been continuous suffering only since time immemorial.

3.Reservation

My views on this are well articulated and so I am not repeating.

But, in the context of NCs, PCs and MCs do you not agree that the MCs align more towards change than no-change? Hence, I feel irrespective of whatever view an individual MC may hold on the above items, he/she is willing to change along with the society. In that scenario, the views on some particular topics will hardly matter, don't you agree?

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri ShivKC Ji,

I have asked you for your response to my posting on this thread.

So far no response, yet you have posted a query to Professor Nara Ji in 'After Death -What?' thread. Professor Nara Ji correctly refrained from responding.

Your first order of business in this Forum is to respond to the Moderator's request. Because, it seems like you want to sidestep answering, here is the Moderator's decision:
Your posts in any threads will be deleted till you respond to my query here, in this thread.

Regards,
KRS