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Prahlada speaks on bhakthi as the highest value ( sri bhagavatham)

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Money, wife, children, domestic animals, house and other property, accumulated wealth consisting of lands, elephants, treasury etc., - what real joy can all such fleeting objects of enjoyment give to a man in a life-time that is so short and transitory? like the enjoyments of the world, the joys obtained in the heavenly regions through the performance of vedic rituals are also temporary, impure and variable. therefore in loving devotion, you worship the lord, the supreme being, the one unaffected by decay or any blemish for the attainment of the highest spiritual fulfilment.

with regards
Thilak
Psychologist
 
Dear SHri Thilak,
I hope you have read Bhagvad Gita, Krishna says that very few seek salvation from the cycle of births and death. Out of these very few, a handful of people achieve success in various grades.Of the handful, only one is successful in attaining me. This roughly can be taken as one in a billion in the present context.For others, money, wife, children, wealth and power are required. Normally a man gets vairagya when encounters sufferig on account of any of the above mentioned possessions. The process of getting vairagya is very very long and culminates after several births. Therefore, Prahlada Bhakti can be practised by one in billion in the present day context. Of course, a beginning is to be made somewhere and at least reading or contemplating on Prahlada Bhakti. raja48
 
Money, wife, children, domestic animals, house and other property, accumulated wealth consisting of lands, elephants, treasury etc., - what real joy can all such fleeting objects of enjoyment give to a man in a life-time that is so short and transitory? like the enjoyments of the world, the joys obtained in the heavenly regions through the performance of vedic rituals are also temporary, impure and variable. therefore in loving devotion, you worship the lord, the supreme being, the one unaffected by decay or any blemish for the attainment of the highest spiritual fulfilment.

with regards
Thilak
Psychologist

I do agree with you...even when we are on Jnaana Maarga its actually held up by Bhakti Maarga.
Bhakti is the basis for anything.
Many mistake Bhakti as blind without any reasoning power but in reality its take a great amount of Viveka to have Bhakti itself.
Bhakti itself is a boon from the Lord and its not just merely a state of mind.
The mind is fickle(Chancal)..True Bhakti is Achal.
 
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I like to respond to the point of Ms Renuka. Mind is chanchal and bhakti is achal. Bhakti starts from the Sagun and proceeds to the Nirgun. The ultimate form of bhakti expects one to be not even doing bhakti. Unfortunately, for most of us, bhakti starts with a few shlokas some pujas or some homams and seek something in return thereof. The current day context of Bhakti as practised by most of us is nothing but a trade off. Prahlada's bhakti was one of total surrender. "Patruha Pattrattran Pattrinai Appatrai Patruha Pattru Vidarku" is the Kural.
I make this so that Ms Renuka would give a link or connect to the Gnana Marga as propounded in Gita. How does one balance the Karma and yet remain unconnected or attached to it. The god likes the Stitha pragna who remains undisturbed. For instance, you need a laptop to connect to net and it is to be in good order. You need to keep your gadgets in order. Do you keep them in good order without being attached. We are consumers even with regard to religion, I suppose.
 
I like to respond to the point of Ms Renuka. Mind is chanchal and bhakti is achal. Bhakti starts from the Sagun and proceeds to the Nirgun. The ultimate form of bhakti expects one to be not even doing bhakti. Unfortunately, for most of us, bhakti starts with a few shlokas some pujas or some homams and seek something in return thereof. The current day context of Bhakti as practised by most of us is nothing but a trade off. Prahlada's bhakti was one of total surrender. "Patruha Pattrattran Pattrinai Appatrai Patruha Pattru Vidarku" is the Kural.
I make this so that Ms Renuka would give a link or connect to the Gnana Marga as propounded in Gita. How does one balance the Karma and yet remain unconnected or attached to it. The god likes the Stitha pragna who remains undisturbed. For instance, you need a laptop to connect to net and it is to be in good order. You need to keep your gadgets in order. Do you keep them in good order without being attached. We are consumers even with regard to religion, I suppose.


I feel there a few points brought out here:

You had mentioned that the The ultimate form of bhakti expects one to be not even doing bhakti.


Ok can we discuss this point 1st?

Can we really do Bhakti?

Is Bhakti an action or is Bhakti a spiritual experience?


You have correctly mentioned that many mistake rituals as a show of Bhakti but we cant deny the fact some of those who have Bhakti also preform rituals out of love for God.

So should we start off by defining Bhakti?

Over to you and i will try to look for inputs too..
 
Madam,
You have given a nice piece to read. Bhakti should be seen as a path as they use the word bhakti marga. Gnana marga also converges at a different level with the destination of Bhakti marga. We unfortunately confuse bhakti as the end but not as the means. Bhakti is required at a level where it starts enabling you to concentrate and lifts your plane by a few notches. Beyond that, one may be able to realise that it is more linkage even on a mental level. What I meant by not doing bhakti, I intended to convey a level. I can explain this with the anecdote mentioned by U.V. Karunakarachiar in Television. In a temple in Tamilnadu for which there were family trustees there was a change in incumbency of the Chief trustee due to death. A new qualified young MBA took over. He enquired about the distribution of prasad when he found out that the expenditure on prasad was high. He enquired how prasad is consumed and distributed. The temple manager brought out a list of temple staff (Purohit, Florist, Musician etc.) and there was a person who was a Paradesi monk (who just sat in the entrance of the temple who did not do anything at all) and that paradesi was also given 2 pattais of rice prasad. The MBA gentleman asked what is the performance for the temple from the paradesi. The manager replied that he was doing nothing. The new Trustee ordered stoppage of Prasad to the Paradesi. After a few days the trustee wanted to check what the Paradesi is doing without food for a few days. The paradesi was quite. Out of curiosity, he asked the Paradesi if he could do some job for getting prasad. Pardesi kept quite. Next day the trustee again went to temple and while he was standing before the God he had various thoughts about work to attend, need to look after mother etc. and after that went stood before tnhe Paradesi. When he started speaking, the Paradesi told him that while standing before the Lord, the trustee was thinking about work to attend, mother to be looked after and taken to hospital etc. The trustee was wonder struck. He asked the paradesi how such a thing was possible. The paradesi said that to get to that status, it had taken years of arduous labour and practice and that is why he has remained doing nothing. The trustee ordered that the Pattai Soru be reinstated to the Paradesi. I am mentioning this narrative only to say that basically we are driven by aghyana to seek material comfort before God. I think bhakti can not be defined but may mean many things to many people, but the ultimate of the pursuit would be one where we would be like the Paradesi incident narrated herein. I might have missed a few details in the incident, but the point may be driven home.
Please get back with some more material and I promise to discuss with you again.
regards, madam
 
How does one balance the Karma and yet remain unconnected or attached to it. The god likes the Stitha pragna who remains undisturbed. For instance, you need a laptop to connect to net and it is to be in good order. You need to keep your gadgets in order. Do you keep them in good order without being attached. We are consumers even with regard to religion, I suppose.


|| karmanyEvAdhikAraste mA phalEShu kadAchana||
mA karmaphala heturbhooh mA te sangostvakarmaNi ||



"Your right is only to work, and never to its fruits.
Don't let the fruits of work be thy motive.. Nor should you be attached to inaction"


Your Question is all about this.This is one of the most beautiful verses of the Geeta and also the most commonly misunderstood.

Many think that we should just work without any motivation and not even expect a wage and let ourselves be exploited.

This Shloka does not say we cant be motivated as it does say not to be attached to inaction but its stresses upon our motive.
Our motive should not be for monetary gain achieved either by adharmic means or by not putting in the required action.
When we work its the Dharma of the employer to pay his employee and if he doesnt pay his employee the employee has every right to ask for his rightful salary cos we are entitled to a wage as a outcome of preforming our duties cos for every action there is a reaction.
And wage is just a reaction for our work.

Ok now what does it mean not to be attached to our fruits of action..
I will give you a personal example..
Ok as a private doctor..some days are very busy and some days can be moderately busy..so on the very busy days income is more.
Ok..so i just see the patients for the day and go home with whatever income for that day.
I have a friend who tells me he does this.
He sets a target for the day that he has to earn at least RM 3000 a day(Ringgit) thats about Rupees 42,000
Ok when he sees the trend of the day is a not as busy..he starts charging more to patients to meet his target of RM 3000 a day.

Now thats being driven by the Fruits of thy action.
The rest of us doctors just take home the cash for the day no matter if its RM 3000 or RM 1000 cos we just do our duty.

But this doesnt mean that if we notice the practise shows a decline in income we should keep singing this shloka and do nothing about it.
We can be motivated and jump into action and try to improve services and conditions cos we have the right to maintain our work as to generate an income but with non selfish motives.
See by improving our bussiness we provide money for ourselves,family,kids,employees too.
These are not selfish motives but our Kartavyam.
I hope you understand what i am trying to say here.

Ok next you said God likes the Stitha pragna who remains undisturbed.

Frankly speaking God doesnt have preferences as He is above Dualities.
Sthipragna is the best state for any human being.
Here i would like to caution that outwardly sometimes Sattva and Tamas might look the same but there is a thin line of difference.
Ok for example we see 2 individuals.
Both are never disturbed by any situation.

1st one who is Sattva remains calm becos he uses his Viveka and weighs the situation and reacts accordingly without being affected by the outcome cos he leaves everything to God after doing what he has to do.
This state is not achieved over night..It involves conditioning over many births and neither is it attained through frustration.

2nd one-- who is Tamas also appears unaffected cos in his mind he feels "who cares about life now..i didnt get what i wanted and who cares about myself or others now..to hell with the world"

See the difference?

Ok now coming to your next Q..

For instance, you need a laptop to connect to net and it is to be in good order. You need to keep your gadgets in order. Do you keep them in good order without being attached. We are consumers even with regard to religion, I suppose.[/QUOTE]


We need to keep even our body in good order cos thats the temple of God..its has to be in good working condition both inside and outside to be able to tune in to Divine data inputs.

Ok coming to your lap top..Ok simple see through your lap top you are tuning here in TB to discuss this and its your Action to make sure it works well to be able to tune in here.
If something in your lap top doesnt work..get it checked and replace the parts..thats just Action.

I disagree that we are consumers even in religion even though majority are..You see majority pray to God for something..how many really sing the glory of God without expecting anything in return? Hardly..thats why as Gopaindu mentioned in his post.


Krishna says that very few seek salvation from the cycle of births and death. Out of these very few, a handful of people achieve success in various grades.Of the handful, only one is successful in attaining Me


Its not that its an impossible task but very few qualify for it cos they havent shed their motives for their action.

So now doesnt this post by Thilak rings a bell..

Money, wife, children, domestic animals, house and other property, accumulated wealth consisting of lands, elephants, treasury etc., - what real joy can all such fleeting objects of enjoyment give to a man in a life-time that is so short and transitory? like the enjoyments of the world, the joys obtained in the heavenly regions through the performance of vedic rituals are also temporary, impure and variable. therefore in loving devotion, you worship the lord, the supreme being, the one unaffected by decay or any blemish for the attainment of the highest spiritual fulfilment.

So dear Ramamurthy doesnt Jnana and Bhakthi go hand in hand?
 
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Dear Madam,
Many thanks for the nice elaboration. I agree with you that the Bhakti and Gnana go hand in hand. I would like to say that our actions should be oriented much towards gnana than bhakti because in bhakti we have knowingly or unknowingly seek something in return. See all the slokas - for all deities - some shlokas have longer phalasrutis - see even the navagraha stotras which start with fruits of shlokas in the first stanza itself. See the shloka
Pranamya Sirasa Devam Gowriputram Vinayakam
Bhakta.... Smarannityam Ayuhu: Kamartha Siddhaye
We all knowingly and unknowingly seek to chant the shlokas, mantras where a part of it meant for seeking. Rudram is followed by Chamakam and what is not asked in Chamakam. Eleven stanzas - all asking this and that. Does one say that I do a prayer (perhaps that type of a prayer is yet to be formalised) and skip the phalasruti or even take the earliest Sahasranamams - Lalitha and Vishnu. Lalitha sahasranamam is in the nature of a dialogue which starts as dissemination of knowledge of Goptri (Guhya - secret) but the formal version of prayer seeks to end with many phalasrutis. Our predecessors wanted - without exception - that the bhakti form should have in built forms of seeking. These were written at a time when Chatur Varna dharma was a way of life. The shlokas were meant for the Grihastha. Take any language prayer - Marathi, Hindi (Hanuman Chalisa - Jo yeh padai Hanuman Chalisa Hoye Siddhi Sakhi Gaurisa), Tamil (Kanda Sashti Kavacham, Kandar Kali Venba)
I do consider that the state which Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi achieved or reached - referring to himself as 'it' instead of 'me' is the ultimate though one in a billion reach that level. While reaching our destinations we have no choice but to be like a spider. Even the Upanishads are not without seeking. Take Ganapathi Atharva Seersham. Perhaps this would engage you in a little more discussion about the need for phalashrutis.
It appears that something more is due from you to me, thanks
 
Dear Madam,
Many thanks for the nice elaboration. I agree with you that the Bhakti and Gnana go hand in hand. I would like to say that our actions should be oriented much towards gnana than bhakti because in bhakti we have knowingly or unknowingly seek something in return. See all the slokas - for all deities - some shlokas have longer phalasrutis - see even the navagraha stotras which start with fruits of shlokas in the first stanza itself. See the shloka
Pranamya Sirasa Devam Gowriputram Vinayakam
Bhakta.... Smarannityam Ayuhu: Kamartha Siddhaye
We all knowingly and unknowingly seek to chant the shlokas, mantras where a part of it meant for seeking. Rudram is followed by Chamakam and what is not asked in Chamakam. Eleven stanzas - all asking this and that. Does one say that I do a prayer (perhaps that type of a prayer is yet to be formalised) and skip the phalasruti or even take the earliest Sahasranamams - Lalitha and Vishnu. Lalitha sahasranamam is in the nature of a dialogue which starts as dissemination of knowledge of Goptri (Guhya - secret) but the formal version of prayer seeks to end with many phalasrutis. Our predecessors wanted - without exception - that the bhakti form should have in built forms of seeking. These were written at a time when Chatur Varna dharma was a way of life. The shlokas were meant for the Grihastha. Take any language prayer - Marathi, Hindi (Hanuman Chalisa - Jo yeh padai Hanuman Chalisa Hoye Siddhi Sakhi Gaurisa), Tamil (Kanda Sashti Kavacham, Kandar Kali Venba)
I do consider that the state which Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi achieved or reached - referring to himself as 'it' instead of 'me' is the ultimate though one in a billion reach that level. While reaching our destinations we have no choice but to be like a spider. Even the Upanishads are not without seeking. Take Ganapathi Atharva Seersham. Perhaps this would engage you in a little more discussion about the need for phalashrutis.
It appears that something more is due from you to me, thanks

Dear Rams,

You know our religion is a very multipurpose one..It caters for the needs of every devotee.
You see take a child for example..when a baby is born..he/she depends on his mother for milk,food,shelter and love.
As a child grows he/she becomes less dependent on mother and finally a person stands on his own feet.

Phala Shruti is just the explanation given for any prayer or ritual.
Its like the beneficial effects of a medication for the human body but one should remember that desiring the effects of Phala Shruti comes with Side Effects..thats is Births!!!

After all didnt Lord Krishna say in the Geeta:


O Partha, no set determination is formed in the minds of those that are deeply attached to pleasure and power, and whose discrimination is stolen away by the flowery words of the unwise, who are full of desires and look upon heaven as their highest goal, and who, taking pleasure in the panegyric words of the Vedas, declare that there is nothing else. Their flowery words are exuberant with various specific rites as the means to pleasure and power and are the causes of new births as the result of their works performed with desire.

And he further advises Arjuna to go beyond the gunas:

The Vedas deal with the three gunas. Be thou free, O Arjuna, from the triad of the Gunas, free from the pairs of opposites, ever-balanced, free from the thought of getting and keeping, and established in the self.


So dear Ram..
We all climb up the ladder of divinity and no one really takes the lift right away.
Spirituality is all about evolving.


I had previously pasted in this Forum an article on the Evolution of the Vedas.
I will paste one portion here. Go through it cos it will give a clearer picture how the concept of God and prayer evolved.





Evolution Of Vedic Thought – The First Step

If one goes carefully through the Vedic texts that span the ages, one can see a clear line of evolution. The very early hymns are in the Rig Veda, and they not only express ancient man’s sense of wonder but also reveal how he identified specific deities like Indra, Agni, Vayu and so on with forces of Nature. About all this, Swami says,
The very first experience in Indian thought is the thrill of wonder. This is expressed in the hymns or Riks found in the Rig Veda. The Riks are all about the deities or the Devas, like Indra, Varuna and so on.
From this we see that the very early seekers did not straightaway understand Brahman, the Ultimate and all that. Like people elsewhere, the ancients of India also were struck with wonder about Nature and all the forces that formed a part of her, like thunder, lightning, wind, rain, etc. They also understood, perhaps in their own imperfect way, that there was a subtle synergy between the various agencies of Nature that promoted the sustenance of life on earth.
Everything from the ant to the elephant was seen as a part of some mysterious Cosmic cycle. And so, the very first thoughts related not only to the inevitable sense of wonder but also to an important question of logic. If there were forces in Nature, there ought also to be agencies that controlled these forces. It is these that were identified as Devas, and the Devas in charge of different departments, shall I say, were given different names like Indra, Agni and so forth. This is what I would call the first level of thought in a long evolutionary process.
It is interesting in passing to note that the Greeks also went through almost a similar thought process. As would be recalled, the Greeks too had a god of fire, a god for this, a god for that and so on. In fact, tribes everywhere had their own spectrum of deities or spirits, be it in Africa or North America. What this shows is that ancients everywhere had the implicit belief that there was something in the Universe more that what one could merely see with the eyes and experience with the senses.

The Second Step – Worshipping the Elements

Having decided that there were Devas who controlled various aspects and forces of Nature, the next task was to worship them and perform various rituals to propitiate them. Thus it was that rituals came into existence, almost soon after the Devas were accepted. Listeners may recall, for example, that Emperor Dasaratha performed a ritual called the Putrakameshti Yaga for having children. By the way, this ritual is sometimes performed even these days by the childless.
So the first step in the evolution process was to identify Devas and worship them. In due course, the more intensive of the Vedic seekers decided to probe further beyond the Devas and concluded, in the first instance, that there must be an overlord for these deities. The deities were like Viceroys, and there must be a Rex or a King who ruled over them. Thus it is that they convinced themselves about a Power superior to the deities. That power was called God.

Now arose an issue. Whom to worship? Some said, “Worship the deities for particular favours, and worship the God who ruled them when the deities were unable to deliver the goods.” Thus in ancient India, many started worshipping Varuna the God of Rain when the monsoon failed but prayed to another God when they wanted progeny or cure from illness and things like that. This is like going to different counters in a bank when one needs different kinds of service.
At this stage, some thinkers said, “Hey wait a minute. Let’s examine this business in some more detail.” They did so and came up with an answer that is best illustrated by using the analogy of a Bank. Just go to, say, the main office of the State Bank of India in Prashanti Nilayam during the working hours. You will find that many customers are seated with the Manager. Often, these are people from overseas who have big deposits in the Bank. They may have things they want to do like withdrawing some money, getting some foreign currency cashed, making new deposits and so forth. For every such activity, there is an assigned person and a counter for conducting the transaction; yet the VIP customer gets all his jobs done simply by sitting with the Manager. In the same way, these profound thinkers in ancient India came to the important conclusion that though there were deities who took care of limited portfolios, all the favours one wants can in fact be granted directly by God who ruled all the Devas, and that there was no need to separately take these issues up with the lesser deities or Devas.

The Final Understanding – The Existence of The Supreme One

In short, step by step, the seekers realised that there is a Supreme One who is beyond this world, beyond the Universe in fact, and beyond Space and Time too. The seekers also realised that this Supreme One who was beyond Space and Time itself, could not be described in words, and could not be cognised by the Mind too. We have heard so many speakers quote this Vedic phrase:
Yato vaache nivarthante aprapya manasachaha.
This phrase refers to Something that is beyond description and even thought.
Space-Time is a curtain that divides the Creator from the Creation. Creation is on this side of the curtain, while the Creator in all His absolute and pristine glory is on the other, so to speak. In short, slowly but surely, the seekers were zeroing on the existence of the curtain and the presence of something Supreme beyond that curtain. That something is God, whose children we all are, irrespective of race, religion, creed or nationality.
 
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Dear TRR, (Post No.9 Prahlada Bhakthi),
I do agree there are phalsruthis in each and every popular sloka. For that Matter, Even Divya Prabhandam in Tamil contain Phalasrutis. There is no harm in reciting phalasruthis along with sloka. In one pravachana, I heard that there was one person `Nampaaduvan" a great devotee who used to sing the prayers on every Ekadasi Night crossing a jungle. He was caught by a Brahma Rakshas (a person who kills a brahmin andafter he dies, becomes a `brahmarakshas'. That Brahmarakshas caught hold of him with a view to kill him and eat him. Nampaaduvan makes the rakshas agree to relieve him on the condition that he would came back and submit himself. Then the devotee sang his prayers to God as usual and came back to him. On the way somebody advised him not to go back to rakshas. But he did not pay heed to him and went back to rakshas. He requests the rakshas to eat him. Strangely, Rakshas asks for the fruit of his singing his prayers. Then, he replied that I did not sing for the sake of enjoying anything in return. Then the rakshas asks him for the fruit of at least one song. Then also, he gives the same reply. Then Rakshas requests the singer to sing a song and give its fruit. He replies that I will sing a son but the fruits are to be given by God only. After hearing the song, God appears and releases the sin of Brhma Rakshas. There may be some commissions and omissions in the story. If so one may refer to Varaha Purana and search Kaisika Mahatmyam (greatness of Kaisika raga) followed by Upadesha of Varaha Perumal to Bhoomi Devi (earth) or refer to Kinchitkaram trust website from google. The idea of story is that even if phalsruthis are sung there is no harm as long as you do not expect them from the God. Phalasruthis are written to motivate the ordinary people to the path of devotion. raja48
 
Madam Renu,(Ref: 5,8 & 10 posts on Prahlada Bhakthi)
Wonderful replies. The cogency with which it has been written interpolated examples relevant to modern times indiacate that you have a lot of stuff and I only wish that you keep going like this so that I could learn something from your posts though I may not be able to follow in this birth, but quite likely in my next birth as the knowledge travels with the soul in the cycle of births. I entirely agree with your views. raja48
 
Dear Madam Renuka
Excellent response and I did gain. But i do not intend to stop at this and would love to engage you in discussions further. It is correct that the ancient vedas started with praise of agni, indra and varuna etc. Thereafter, after the third stage mentioned by you (your second stage explanation is very apt) the supreme lords started emerging and the importance of dasavatharas. In today's context, another evolution of the fourth stage has taken place which I intend to add to your thoughts and exposition. The Supreme lords have for current day context, found that the relevant form of bhakti is through the medium of Guru - starting with Adhi Shankara.
Sadashiv Samarambham Sankaracharya madhyamam, Asmat Acharya paryantam vande Guru paramparam. Even vedas need to evolve - while saying this do I exceed myself I do not know - no sins attributable for a jigyasu - but our interpretations certainly evolve - and Bhakti and eventually gnana would eventually evolve. I feel that the readings of Paramacharya's Deivathin Kural or Sai Charithram equate themselves with Vedas - and also Guru Gita - I am mentioning the initial Guru Charithram starting with Dattatreya and Sripada Sri Vallabha where it is equivocal that Guru can pardon sins to the Trinity - Brahma, Vishnu and Rudura - but none can pardon a sin caused to Guru. This understanding, I feel is eternal and the prahlada bhakti of the times that we can only imagine is relevant for the Kali Yug as the Bhakti through Guru Upasana. I do not know if I am causing any inconvenience, but you are excellent in your expositions.
regards
 
Dear Gopaindu,
I realise what you intend to convey in your post. While I am also one who does a prayer to seek, I think we need to ultimately convey while praying we seek "Anayasena Maranam, Vina Dainyena Jeevanam,Dehi me kripaya Sambho Tvayi Bhaktim Achanchala" as that is the ultimate which one can seek. Whenever i would get sufficient time, certainly I would refer to the materials referred to by you and I do enjoy the discussion and participation.
Thanks for the response.
 
Dear Ram,

The article which I pasted in my reply to you was taken from Heart 2 Heart Sathya Sai Team site (its not my work..thats why I had used the word that I had pasted an article and not used the word I wrote an article.)
All credit for that article goes to Prof. G Venkataraman


The Evolution and significance of The Vedas
MUSINGS FROM PRASHANTHI NILAYAM
CONCERNING THE VEDAS – 02
THE VEDAS - THEIR EVOLUTION AND SIGNIFICANCE

By Prof. G Venkataraman


I had pasted in before in Forum in this link.you can go thru the whole article:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/3871-evolution-significance-vedas.html
 
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Dear Ram,

You have mentioned that "Guru can pardon sins to the Trimurti but no one can pardon a sin caused to Guru."

Technically none of us can actually Praise or Blame God even if He is in the form of the Trimurti.
God is Dvandaatheetam(Beyond Dualities).

Before that may be we should realize that in this world there are no sins or merit in the real sense.Everything is just experiences which might be in the either ends of the spectrum and we take births till we have no experiences to go through anymore.

So when it is said that Guru can "pardon" sins to Trimurti here..we should not look at it in the literal sense but rather a Guru Dispels Ignorance and hence shows us the Marg(path) which is best suited for us and will lead us eventually to a
enlightenment.So in that way a Guru prevents us from gaining more Karmic Debts of the negative kind a.k.a Sins.

Now coming to "No one can pardon a sin caused to a Guru"

Here again I would like to use the word Karmic Debt(of the negative type) to describe a "Sin".
Preforming any act whether positive(with desires) or negative has side effects as I mentioned in my earlier post, so a "sin" to a Guru needs to be worked out Karmically at a later date hence described as no one can pardon it.

Remember the whole Kumarila Bhatta episode?
 
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Dear Madam
With reference to your post no. 15, no matter if credit is due to some another gentleman. But for the forum and discussion hereunder,you are indeed the beacon light. I am not trying to extoll but good things may come from any source. "Aa no badrah Kratavo Yantu Vishwataha" "Let noble thoughts come from all sources". You have done the research and give the connect which we need and as long as we get the right lead, the credit is to the giver, rather than the source. (We are accounting professionals and this is a fundamental rule)
Next w.r.t. post no. 16, you asked whether I remember the Kumarila Bhattar episode. All I know and can recall is that he sneaked into a buddha vihara with a view to learn buddhist scriptures and had a guru there and got engaged in a verbal duel and was thrown out from the upstairs and in that process he lost an eye. He took that, if I am not wrong, as a cost he had to incur for cheating on the guru. Perhaps you refer to this or if it is something else, then again we will depend on the magnanimity with which you are sharing your knowledge to enlighten. He ultimately met the Bhagavatpada and suggested to him to have a discussion with Mandana Mishra who ultimately became Sureshwara, his disciple and the discussion was adjudged by Mandana Mishra's wife who incidentally was Saraswathi Avatara and later became Sharada maayee.
I agree with you that a guru is far from being wronged as he is nirguni, but incidentally, we lesser mortals as we are, have to traverse the sea of aghyana rightly or wrongly and based upon experiences.
In conclusion, may I seek to mention a little on personal side - I wish I had an enlightened elder sister like you in my formative years. During those days, existence/filling the stomach was itself the biggest question coming from large families, moving from small villages to big cities and adjusting to the surrounding environment and also yielding to various kinds of temptations . Then the start and revolution of the sansara chakra. Right knowledge opportunity at the right age would at least make us disciples of the right leader like Vivekananda.
 
Bhagthi is matured Gnana.Gnana is the initial state of getting the knowledge of the Supreme.Then we accept THE SUPREME and gets the feeling that with HIS Grace only we can attain Mukthi.At that stage we emotionally feel HIM and gets into the BHAVANA of serving HIM,ADMIRING HIM etc.
That stahe is BHAGTHI.
alwan
 
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