Please Enlighten me on this

[prasad1]

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prasadji

I was told that in a Hindu Temple in NY, there is separate sannadhi for Thumbikai Alwar too!!

Hindu Temple of NY, Do you mean the siddhi vinayaka temple of flishing NY, Or the Ranganatha Temple of Pomona NY?

 

[P.J.]

prasadji

I am sorry Sir, I am not sure about the Temple..
Y day one of my friend told me about this.

 

[Nara]

.....It will thus be seen that the vighneswara of the smartas could be demoted to a colonel and vishvaksena appointed laterally as the supreme commander just because one or more sanskrit-knowing and most probably brahmin, humans so decided. Now, we should think of what powers will all such gods/deities have, if their own creators were mere mortals..

Dear Shri Sangom, I agree with everything you have said, except this one, i.e. Vighneswara of smarthas demoted as a subordinate of Viswaksena. I think for SVs, thumbikkai azhvar is a completely different entity. Vishvaksena's army of lieutenants include countless millions of nithyasoories, each assuming any bodily form suitable for the service function that they are performing. This thumbikkai azhvar is one of them, nothing to do with Vinayaka. The pujaries in temples may encourage the mistaken identification out of ignorance or opportunity for income (more opportunity for dhakshinai -- nothing wrong with it IMO) or both.

best .....

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom, I agree with everything you have said, except this one, i.e. Vighneswara of smarthas demoted as a subordinate of Viswaksena. I think for SVs, thumbikkai azhvar is a completely different entity. Vishvaksena's army of lieutenants include countless millions of nithyasoories, each assuming any bodily form suitable for the service function that they are performing. This thumbikkai azhvar is one of them, nothing to do with Vinayaka. The pujaries in temples may encourage the mistaken identification out of ignorance or opportunity for income (more opportunity for dhakshinai -- nothing wrong with it IMO) or both.

best .....

Dear Shri Nara,

You are the right person to clarify Shri PJ's doubt as to why & how vaishnava temples have sometimes separate sannidhi for this tumbikkai Azhvar, what he is, and according to which scripture, etc. Can you kindly elaborate your explanation so that all of us will benefit.

Since I am completely ignorant of the vaishnavite background, I thought that this tumbikkai azhvar is identical with vinayaka, who is one of the hundreds of pArShadas of vishvaksena according to the vishnu sahasranama sloka.

 

[P.J.]

Dear Shri Sangom, I agree with everything you have said, except this one, i.e. Vighneswara of smarthas demoted as a subordinate of Viswaksena. I think for SVs, thumbikkai azhvar is a completely different entity. Vishvaksena's army of lieutenants include countless millions of nithyasoories, each assuming any bodily form suitable for the service function that they are performing. This thumbikkai azhvar is one of them, nothing to do with Vinayaka. The pujaries in temples may encourage the mistaken identification out of ignorance or opportunity for income (more opportunity for dhakshinai -- nothing wrong with it IMO) or both.

best .....

Nara Sir

I completely agree with you; This Thubikai Alwar is a completely different entity created by Tamil Vaishnavites to worship Lord Vinayaka.
On Google Search nothing can be found about " THUMBIKAI ALWAR' also there is no Puranic Stories connected with this Deity.

Also this deity is only found in Tamil Nadu exclusive Vaishnava Temples, not in NORTH INDIAN Temples.

 

[Vaagmi]

dear PJ,

Here it is a harmless question seeking info:

When did Lord Vinayaka became ' Thumbikai Alwar'
Why this Alwar Pattam?
Even in the suburbs of Chennai Nanaganallur, there is Hayagreevar Temple where there is separate Sannadhi for 'Thumbikai Alwar'

Here it turns into a judgment and a condemnation:

Anyone can worship any deity, there is no dispute about it; If Vaishavite would worship a Deity only with the Thirunamam and carry the name of ' ALWAR' means, they are cheating themselves.
Mudaliars of Tamilnadu do not call Him as "THUMBIKAI MUDALIAR".

and dear Prasadji,

You could find something funny and had this to add:

It is funny you said that.
I Ranganatha Temple of NY The Sri Vaisnawa singers would not include a devote Iyangar from Bridgewater temple group. The reason given was that he has visited Bridgewater Temple where they worship Shiva.
A temple priest hired by NY Ganesh temple refused to perform puja to Balajee, until he can not hear other priest performing puja to other idols.

I have this to say:

We do not bother to understand what is vaishnava religion and comment about their faith and practices. And of course we have many likeminded friends who join the chorus and say "yeah, yeah you said it". We go to bed at the end of the day with the satisfaction that We have contributed something to the knowledge of members here. How sad!!

If PJ had bothered to know what is the meaning of the word alwar he would not have equated it with mudaliyar. And if Shri Prasadji had tried to understand vaishnavam he would hot have found it funny to see what he observed in US. As a newbie I am rather sad to see these posts here.

I am reminded of the story of the blind men touching an elephant and explaining what an elephant is. For those who can enjoy Tamil this:

அண்ணே! ஆலிலை எப்புடி இருக்கும்?

தம்பீ இது தெரியாதா? புளிய இலை போல வேலியில படர்ந்திருக்கும்டா.

Only Narayana can save Vaishnavam.

 

[Nara]

... why & how vaishnava temples have sometimes separate sannidhi for this tumbikkai Azhvar, what he is, and according to which scripture, etc. Can you kindly elaborate your explanation so that all of us will benefit.

Dear Shri Sangom and Shri PJ, I am afraid there is no definitive evidence from a scientific POV on this question of who this Thumbikkai Azhvar is. Visvaksena's celestial army is supposed consist of all sorts of entities and therefore, that there is an elephant brigade led by a thumbikkai azhvar is not too hard to assert and be accepted among SVs.

We must also note that there are several important temples including some that are 108 divya desam in which there are sannithis for even Shiva -- Thirukkoshtiyu for example. Another important temple where there is Ambal inside the sanctum is Thirukkovilur. On the reverse side, Perumal is also seen as one of the subsidiary deities in two of 108 divya desams in Kanchipuram.

As far as the Vinakaya in Sv temples is concerned, I am not familiar with a separate sannithi for this deity in any of the old temples, at best there will be a elephant-like figurine in the praharam that is made into a make-shift sannidhi for Vinakaya.

In some of the new SV temples however, like in Ahobila Matam temple in Mumbai, I am told they have a Thumbikkai Azhvar sannithi, and this is to serve their customer base -- for them this thumbikkai azhvar can serve as Vinayaka while the orthodox SVs can see it as not Vinayaka, LOL.

I am sorry I am not able to provide more authentic information .... best regards

 

[P.J.]

Dear Shri Sangom and Shri PJ, I am afraid there is no definitive evidence from a scientific POV on this question of who this Thumbikkai Azhvar is. Visvaksena's celestial army is supposed consist of all sorts of entities and therefore, that there is an elephant brigade led by a thumbikkai azhvar is not too hard to assert and be accepted among SVs.

We must also note that there are several important temples including some that are 108 divya desam in which there are sannithis for even Shiva -- Thirukkoshtiyu for example. Another important temple where there is Ambal inside the sanctum is Thirukkovilur. On the reverse side, Perumal is also seen as one of the subsidiary deities in two of 108 divya desams in Kanchipuram.

As far as the Vinakaya in Sv temples is concerned, I am not familiar with a separate sannithi for this deity in any of the old temples, at best there will be a elephant-like figurine in the praharam that is made into a make-shift sannidhi for Vinakaya.

In some of the new SV temples however, like in Ahobila Matam temple in Mumbai, I am told they have a Thumbikkai Azhvar sannithi, and this is to serve their customer base -- for them this thumbikkai azhvar can serve as Vinayaka while the orthodox SVs can see it as not Vinayaka, LOL.

I am sorry I am not able to provide more authentic information .... best regards

Nara Sir

Thanks for your thoughts on this; you have correctly said " for them this thumbikkai azhvar can serve as Vinayaka while the orthodox SVs can see it as not Vinayaka,"

For all purpose Vaishnavas have Thumbikai Alwar, as Lord Vinayaka, to satisfy their inner ego, they have put Thirunaman instead of Thiruneeru and gave the name as Thumikai Alwar.

only in Tamil Nadu this hard core Vaishnavas do like this, not in any north Indian Temples.

If really there is an Alwar named as 'Thumikai Alwar' they can come out with the History/ puranic story of such an Alwar.

 

[prasad1]

Just for Fun.
poetic shaiva vaishnava duels

There are many instances of shaiva vaishnava duels among the great poets and common men of those days.


In Sri Rangam before ramanuja's time there was a ganesh temple.Ganesh was worshipped like how he is worshipped allover the world.But with visisthathvaidha of Ramanuja a problem arose,how toworship ganesh?Can we use white ash to worship ganesh?Can we worship him at all?


Problem was solved when ganesh was renamed as vishvaksena and thumbikai alwar and the namam was given to him.Even today staunch vaishnavites turn their head when they see his adobe there,some worship him as viswaksena and others dont.
Seeing this some vaishnavites were very happy."See ganesh has become vaishnavite.He has left shiva and come to vishnu"was their opinion.Hearing this poet kalamegam,a stuanch shaivite retaliated.


"But,why did ganesh come to his uncle vishnu leaving his father shiva?Its since that shivas post of ishwara is never vacant,since shiva never was born or ends.Seeing this ganesh realized that he can never become number one.He thought that he can come and occupy his uncle vishnu's post when it gets vacant since vishnu has a beginning adna n end,unlike shiva...."


======
The next story goes like this.In thiruvanaikkal there is a vishnu temple anda shiva temple side by side.Many vaishnavas willgo,pray vishnu adn willnot even turn to the side of shiva.One day a staunch vaishnava went to temple.He prayed vishnu and walked near the side of shiva temple.Suddenly a crow sat on the shiva temple,and a brick which was loose fell on the vaishnava.Blood oozed from his head.He held his head and shouted happily as follows.


'Oh,veera vaishnava crow.Thats the way to demolish the shiva temple..."


======================
Many such duels are mentioned in ponniyin selvan by kalki.

 

[prasad1]

Nara Sir

Thanks for your thoughts on this; you have correctly said " for them this thumbikkai azhvar can serve as Vinayaka while the orthodox SVs can see it as not Vinayaka,"

For all purpose Vaishnavas have Thumbikai Alwar, as Lord Vinayaka, to satisfy their inner ego, they have put Thirunaman instead of Thiruneeru and gave the name as Thumikai Alwar.

only in Tamil Nadu this hard core Vaishnavas do like this, not in any north Indian Temples.

If really there is an Alwar named as 'Thumikai Alwar' they can come out with the History/ puranic story of such an Alwar.

In Gujarat and Rajasthan the "vaisnav" are non-brahmins.

 

[sarang]

There are vaishnavas from all varnas and jatis; in tamilnadu also.

In Gujarat and Rajasthan the "vaisnav" are non-brahmins.

 

[prasad1]

There are vaishnavas from all varnas and jatis; in tamilnadu also.

Thanks for information.

 

[renuka]

If Ganesha is renamed Thumbikai Alwar by Vaishnavas even though Ganesh is Son of Shiva so why don't Vaishnavas rename Shiva as Bhujanga Alwar(since He has Snakes on His Body) and end all the Shiva Vs Vishnu problem?

So Bhujanga Alwar can be "friends" with Bhujanga Shayana.

 

[prasad1]

The Malliyoor Sree MahaGanapathy Temple in Kottayam district, Kerala is the sacred abode of the all - encompassing divine presence of Lord Ganesha and also a coveted destination of lakhs of pilgrims from all over India. The endearing elephant - headed Lord Ganesha, the son of Siva and Parvathy, enjoys prime place among all the gods in the Hindu pantheon. He is Parabrahma incarnate, the God of Wisdom and Learning, the Remover of all Obstacles and is worshipped first, any other god.


The Malliyoor Sree MahaGanapathy Temple is incomparable in the conception of the presiding deity as Vaishnava Ganapathy, with a young Sree Krishna seated on the lap of Lord Ganesha. This unique and powerful infusion of the Vaishnava spirit in the Ganesha idol is the supreme achievement of the devoted penance of the much-revered main priest of the temple, Brahmasree Bhagavathahamsam Malliyoor Sankaran Nampoothiri. Today thousand of devotees flock to the feet of Vasihnava Ganapthy at Malliyoor seeking eternal salvation form the bonds of Karama and solace from the evils of Kaliyuga.


The Malliyoor Maha Ganapathy Temple is believed to have come into existence much before the Perumals exercised their sway over the southern peninsula. The pre-Perumal historical records have many references to the importance of this place of worship.


The deity here is conceptualised as Beeja Ganapathi, the trunk twisted rightward and carries on its tip a lemon, the hands hold an axe, a rope, a horn and a laddu, cradling little Sree Krishna in his lap. The Vaishnava spirit permeates the entire atmosphere.

 

[prasad1]

Vaishnavas and Vrajavasis celebrate by seeking Lord Shiva's blessings and worship him in his form as a gopi at the ancient temple of Gopishwara in Vrindavan.


"It is said, vaishnavanam yatha sambhu: Lord Shiva is the best of devotees of Lord Krishna. In Vrindavan there is Lord Shiva's temple called Gopishwara. The gopis used to worship not only Lord Shiva but Katyayani (Durga) as well, but their aim was to attain the favour of Lord Krishna. A devotee of Lord Krishna does not disrespect Lord Shiva, but worships Lord Shiva as the most exalted devotee of Lord Krishna. Consequently, whenever a devotee worships Lord Shiva he prays to Lord Shiva to achieve the favour of Krishna and he does not request material profit." (Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4. 24.30.)

The Deity of Gopishwar Mahadev, worshipped in a small temple near Vamsivata, is a lingam -- one of four important Shiva-linga shrines in Vraja. Each night the lingam is transformed as he assumes the semblance of a gopi's face, replete with nose ring and other feminine ornaments in a most colourful attire The ensemble is different every day of the year. Lord Shiva resides forever in Vrindavan as Gopishwara Mahadeva, the dearest devotee of Krishna, and thus participates in all the Lord's unending Lila.


I am sure pure Iyyangars would be appalled.

 

[sangom]

Vaishnavas and Vrajavasis celebrate by seeking Lord Shiva's blessings and worship him in his form as a gopi at the ancient temple of Gopishwara in Vrindavan.


"It is said, vaishnavanam yatha sambhu: Lord Shiva is the best of devotees of Lord Krishna. In Vrindavan there is Lord Shiva's temple called Gopishwara. The gopis used to worship not only Lord Shiva but Katyayani (Durga) as well, but their aim was to attain the favour of Lord Krishna. A devotee of Lord Krishna does not disrespect Lord Shiva, but worships Lord Shiva as the most exalted devotee of Lord Krishna. Consequently, whenever a devotee worships Lord Shiva he prays to Lord Shiva to achieve the favour of Krishna and he does not request material profit." (Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4. 24.30.)

The Deity of Gopishwar Mahadev, worshipped in a small temple near Vamsivata, is a lingam -- one of four important Shiva-linga shrines in Vraja. Each night the lingam is transformed as he assumes the semblance of a gopi's face, replete with nose ring and other feminine ornaments in a most colourful attire The ensemble is different every day of the year. Lord Shiva resides forever in Vrindavan as Gopishwara Mahadeva, the dearest devotee of Krishna, and thus participates in all the Lord's unending Lila.


I am sure pure Iyyangars would be appalled.

For Krishna, I think it did not matter whether Siva went in the form of a gopi, or whether it was a genuine gopi. The rAsaleela was a celebration in which hundreds if not thousands of gopis took part and Krishna the only male could satisfy each one of them.

[But people do not at all talk of Balarama's feat in besting Krishna at his own game, may I say? It seems Balarama came to the place of gopis (vraja) stayed there for two months during autumn and, since the gopis were all love-lorn for the company of Krishna and the amorous dances.

SB 10.65.17
dvau māsau tatra cāvātsīn
 madhuṁ mādhavaṁ eva ca
rāmaḥ kṣapāsu bhagavān
 gopīnāṁ ratim āvahan

gopīnāṁ ratim āvahan means bringing conjugal pleasure to the gopis.] This is the strange thing.

 

[Vaagmi]

If Ganesha is renamed Thumbikai Alwar by Vaishnavas even though Ganesh is Son of Shiva so why don't Vaishnavas rename Shiva as Bhujanga Alwar(since He has Snakes on His Body) and end all the Shiva Vs Vishnu problem?
So Bhujanga Alwar can be "friends" with Bhujanga Shayana.

Renuka Madam,

Please look up your lexicon for the meaning of the tamil word Azhwar and then your confusion will disappear.

 

[prasad1]

True meaning of Rasleela.
It is misinterpreted. Actually Raasleela represents God's relationship with each and every human being. Gopees are souls which dances with ONE true GOD and how HE is there for all of them.

Krishna's Birth
• Appearance at midnite of Sravana k8 (July 19/20), year 3228 BC to Devaki
• taken by Vasudeva from Mathura to Nanda and Yasoda in Gokula
Till 3
• lived in Gokula
• killed Putana, Sakatasura, Trinivarta demons
3 - 6
• moved to Vrindavana
• killed Bakasura, Aghasura, Dhenuka and Balarama killed Pralamba
• moved to Nandagrama
7-10
• Brahma steals and returns cowherd boys
• Govardhana puja
• played rasa-lila with the gopis
• invited to Mathura for wrestling match
• killed Canura and Balarama killed Mustika
• killed Kamsa and Balarama killed his brothers


It is vulgar to talk about conjugal pleasure to the gopis.

Guru Gangeshwaranandji says

In the Bhagwad (10, 21, 1) it says—


On the Sharad Poornima night, the queen of flowers Mallika is joyous and seems to invite Kaam Dev (the God of love/desire). Shri Krishna decided to enjoy with the help of 'Yog Maya'. There is a word in the shloka that says 'Yog Maya Mu Upashrita'( meaning that the Lord has conquered 'Yog Maya'). Can a person with lust conquer Yog Maya? A lustful person can show no sign of yoga (union with the Divine).


People who are not well versed with the shastras have the audacity to accuse the character of Shri Krishna as lustful and amorous.If he was lustful, Vyasji would have used the word 'Bhog Maya Mu Upashrita'.Bhagwan is called Yogeshwar as there is no trace of lust in Him.


People visit places that attract them (according to their mental make up).Those that have a court case, go to the judge in the court. Those desirous of watching a film go to the cinema house. Only those desirous of learning yoga go to a yoga ashram. At the time of Ras Leela , the Lord had embodied 'Yog Maya' and thus those desirous of 'Yog' (union with the divine) approached Him.


'Bhog' and 'Yog' cannot co-exist. This proves that the Ras Leela was not an amorous activity. It was spiritual and not worldly.


I have studied the text 'Ras Panchadhyayi' (10th Skand, Chapters 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33.)several times and I see no trace of 'Bhog' in the Raas, then why do people malign the Ras Leela? The shortcomings of their minds are reflected in their accusations. The image reflected from a crooked mirror has to be crooked.


Vyasji has said the following beautiful words in the Bhagwad Purana (10, 29, 42):


The Lord of all Yogeshwars, Shri Krishna played with the Gopis out of compassion after hearing their pleas.
http://gurugangeshwaranandjimaharaj.org/lekaurupdeshdetail.aspx?id=136

 

[P.J.]

dear PJ,

Here it is a harmless question seeking info:



Here it turns into a judgment and a condemnation:



and dear Prasadji,

You could find something funny and had this to add:



I have this to say:

We do not bother to understand what is vaishnava religion and comment about their faith and practices. And of course we have many likeminded friends who join the chorus and say "yeah, yeah you said it". We go to bed at the end of the day with the satisfaction that We have contributed something to the knowledge of members here. How sad!!

If PJ had bothered to know what is the meaning of the word alwar he would not have equated it with mudaliyar. And if Shri Prasadji had tried to understand vaishnavam he would hot have found it funny to see what he observed in US. As a newbie I am rather sad to see these posts here.

I am reminded of the story of the blind men touching an elephant and explaining what an elephant is. For those who can enjoy Tamil this:

அண்ணே! ஆலிலை எப்புடி இருக்கும்?

தம்பீ இது தெரியாதா? புளிய இலை போல வேலியில படர்ந்திருக்கும்டா.

Only Narayana can save Vaishnavam.

Vaagmi Sir

Please let us know who is"Thumbikai Alwar?" Is there any History or Puranic Story about Him? please Share it with all of us for the benefit of this Forum.

Please support your answer with proper link.

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi Sir

Please let us know who is"Thumbikai Alwar?" Is there any History or Puranic Story about Him? please Share it with all of us for the benefit of this Forum.

Please support your answer with proper link.

As you are insisting I am giving it without any verbiage. Alwar is one who is immersed in the glorious kalyana gunas of God. Thumbikkai is just a part of the physical body. So thumbikkai alwar refers to a Deva gana (angel) in the service of God who has a thumbikkai and is immersed in the kalyana gunas of the God whom he serves. Now you would have understood why there can not be a thumbikkai mudaliyar and our friend Renuka madam also would have understood why there can not be a bhujanga alwar aka shiva. Thanks. There is no need to give any link or wiki reference for this simple truth. all that is needed is some knowledge of Tamil and a healthy respect for other faiths.

 

[tbs]

hi paddhu sir,
i dont have supported document...but i think like this....when mahabharatha written by sri ganesha and narrated by

veda vyasa......even iyengars start puja with viswaksena.......VYASAYA VISHNU RUPAYA ....VYASA RUPAYA VISHNAVE....

so even though ganesha is from shiva parivar....some where ganesha considered as vishnu parivar too..so all great

sages are called ALWARS according to vaishnavism....so ganesha became THUMBIKKAI ALWAR....

 

[P.J.]

tbs sir

Appreciate your views on this; As already said here with links viswaksena is a commander of Lord Vishnu's army and he is not Lord Vinayaka or Thumbikai Alwar.

The meaning of your Slokam

Vyasaya Vishnu Roopaya, Vyasa Roopaya Vishnave |
Namove Bhrama Nithaye, Vasishtaya Namo Namaha:||

Meaning: Salutation to Vyas who is in the form of Vishnu and Vishnu who is in the form of Vyas and one who is the treasure house of the Vedas. Salutation to one who was born in the noble family of Vasishta. The honour of being equal to Vishnu belonged to Maharushi Vyas.

Maharushi Vyas - A Chiranjeevi - Great Saints | Hindu Janajagruti Samiti

Where is Sri Vinaya coming in this ?
No where there is mention about Lord Vinayaka here;

Alwars are different and Lord Shiva's parivar are different.

Vaishnavas wanted to worship Lord Vinayaka also, and gave Him the name of THUMBIKAI ALWAR, to satisfy their ego.

I hope you understand this.

 

[Nara]

.....veda vyasa......even iyengars start puja with viswaksena.......VYASAYA VISHNU RUPAYA ....VYASA RUPAYA VISHNAVE....

so even though ganesha is from shiva parivar....some where ganesha considered as vishnu parivar too..so all great

sages are called ALWARS according to vaishnavism....so ganesha became THUMBIKKAI ALWAR....

With due apologies to tbs, this is absolutely false, Viswaksena is not Vinayaka and Thumbikkai Azhvar is not either, in fact Thumbikkai Azhvar is a recent invention I think to have it both ways, to cater to the popularity of Pilliyar. Viyasaya Vihnu roopaya... vyasaya roopaya vishnave does not speak to Vinayaka at all.....

 

[renuka]

Renuka Madam,

Please look up your lexicon for the meaning of the tamil word Azhwar and then your confusion will disappear.

Dear Sir,

You know to tell you the truth when I first heard the word Alwar I used to wonder why it sounds so Islamic..only then I realized it is actually connected to Vaishnavaism.

I am aware of the meaning of Alwar..that means "those who are immersed in the thought of God" at times some sites also gives the meaning as Altar in a Northern Indian Lingo.

But anyway for me Vishnu means all pervading and Shiva means auspiciousness in a Saguna form.

 

[P.J.]

As you are insisting I am giving it without any verbiage. Alwar is one who is immersed in the glorious kalyana gunas of God. Thumbikkai is just a part of the physical body. So thumbikkai alwar refers to a Deva gana (angel) in the service of God who has a thumbikkai and is immersed in the kalyana gunas of the God whom he serves. Now you would have understood why there can not be a thumbikkai mudaliyar and our friend Renuka madam also would have understood why there can not be a bhujanga alwar aka shiva. Thanks. There is no need to give any link or wiki reference for this simple truth. all that is needed is some knowledge of Tamil and a healthy respect for other faiths.

So Thumbikai Alwar is only a Kalyana Guna of God!! Vaishnavas have given the roopam of Pillayar for that!!
Nothing to do with Lord Vinayaka!!

What a Twist!!

Sri Mahavishnu's Rupam itself is Kalayana Guna Roopam,
There is no necessity to reduce it in the form of another Roopam and give a name to it as 'Thumbikai Alwar'