Performing Shraddham for Yourself

[il_guy]

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Namaskar all,

I would like to learn how one can perform shradham for one's own self. I have asked my priest, but he does not know how to do it in this manner. I have personal reasons why I am making this request, but I don't really wish to discuss them. Any information anyone may have would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Ganapathi Narayana
[email protected]

PS-I am not going to do the ceremony now. It is for future reference.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Il_guy

Shrardam is a thanks-giving ritual done to one's fore-fathers and mothers after one's father's demise.

Hope this explains everything

Regards
malgova.mango

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Namaskar all,

I would like to learn how one can perform shradham for one's own self. I have asked my priest, but he does not know how to do it in this manner. I have personal reasons why I am making this request, but I don't really wish to discuss them. Any information anyone may have would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Ganapathi Narayana
[email protected]

PS-I am not going to do the ceremony now. It is for future reference.

Yes. There is a provision in the Dharmasasthra for performing shraddham for one's own self. But now only the Pundits in Gaya know the proper procedure. They do it only after being convinced of the reasons for doing it.

I know and heard of people who have done it.

You have to travel to Gaya for performing it.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri il_guy

Namaskarams

What you have wanted to do is referred to as the Atma Pindam by some Pundits referred to by Sri Nacchinarkiniyan.

Here is what His Holiness Shankarachaya of Kanchi says on this subject:

Mr. S.R. Krishnan, Chennai.
Q: Kindly instruct me the details and procedures for 'Atma Pindam'.
A:There is nothing like 'Atma Pindam' and so the need to know about it, does not arise. Only 'Pindam' (ritualistic rice) can be offered to the 'Pithrus' (departed forefathers). Some unscrupulous Pandas/Pandits cheat the gullible public in the name of 'Atma Pindam'.
(Answer given by H.H. Shankaracharya of Kanchi)

excerpts from the website http://www.starteller.com/voice6.html

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Gurus have their own opinions. The Pundits in Gaya have been performing this ceremony for ages. As for as I am aware no other Guru/Acharya has expressed an opinion against this.

Dharmasasthras have over the ages covered all kinds of contingencies. The pundits in Gaya make enough money as it is. Most of the Pundits allover India including Tamil Nadu are called unscrupulous and are accused of cheating the gullible public.

Again many of the religious practices of the Pundits of the north are not accepted by the Tamil Nadu Brahmins. All the Brahmins do not follow the same Dharmasasthras.

The followers of Paramacharya should be aware of his opinion.

Again often in this forum Paramcharya's opinion is quoted as the final authority. But most of the Tamil Brahmins including a large number of Smartas do not consider his opinion to be the final authority. They have their own Gurus/Acharyas. Often this has led to unproductive discussions.

Added:

I had assumed that Paramcharya had said this. Then I was wondering because such terms about Pundits could not have been used by Paramacharya. I checked up the web site. This answer is said to have been given by Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal.

This is a commercial site promoting an Astrological Magazine of the Indian Express group.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan

Namaskarams

The site has a question and answer page and a few questions were answered by HH Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal. At present the same site's questions are answered by HH Dayananda Saraswati Swamigal. The site may be commercial (even this is subjective as the question and answer page is a free service) but the answers are from the Acharyas.

If one follows the words of Acharyas one gains spiritually. It is one's own choice whether to follow or not. The Acharyas do not have any attachment to anything including as to whether their words are followed or not.

I have just drawn the attention to what the Acharya had said on the matter. I have not passed any view or opinion on the matter as I know nothing on the subject.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I know of at least a couple of Vedic scholars well versed in Vedas and Dharmasasthras who have undergone this ceremony in Gaya. They went to Gaya specifically for this.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I was checking up on the concept of Atma Pinda. Then I suddenly remembered that this is one of the rituals of taking Sanyasa. The Sannyasi offers Pinda to himself.

Many scholars take sannyasa during the final stages of life. I think this is called Abath sannyasa. I am not sure about the name. One of my uncles who was a renowned Sanskrit scholar took it.

The Gaya ceremony could have come out of this practice.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan

Namasakarams

Yes. I did notice that when I posted the Shankaracharya's observations on this topic, I felt the Acharya did not want to specify that this is the one done at the time of assuming Sanyasa Ashrama. Therefore, I too didnot touch this aspect.

As to the Abath Sanyasa, this is what Sri Bhagavat Pada Aadhi Shankara took to, when the crocodile caught his leg and demanded that he take to Sanyas. He had no other go than to take to Sanyas. A voluntary sanyasa, in my little knowledge, doesnot fall in the category of Abath Sanyasa.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There are so many types of Sannyasa. I have not been able to find a source giving all the types. The Sannyasa before death is not Abath sannyasa. It is Atura Sannyasa.

He who takes Sanyasa being compelled by the inviting death. For Atura Sanyasa, there is no rule or ritual.

I always thought that the Juddu, and Yagnopaveedam were removed at the time of Sannyasa. I find now that in many types they can be retained. There are 17 Upanishads (last known number. Could be more) dealing with Sannyasa alone. The Gaya ceremony could be a form of Sannyasa.

Are you are confused? I am. You are welcome to the confusion. Please read this article.

http://www.rkvenkat.org/samnyasa.html

Anyone going to Gaya could find out and let us know.

What we know is that it is done by Pundits in Gaya.

 

[il_guy]

Namaste,

Thank you guys for this enlightening conversation. I was going to ask about the sanyasis doing their own funeral rites and such. I should have jumped in, but I didn't. Thanks again for the conversation. I have been following it and it has been most interesting.

Regards,

il_guy

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

This discussion made me look up books and articles regarding Sannyasa. The easiest form of Sannyasa ( considered by many to be the lowest form) is for a Grahastha (householder) to take Sannyasa and continue to live in his own house with all his relatives. He gets the food by Bikshai from his own family. He wears ochre robes of a Sannyasin. That is about the only change in his style of living.

Of course he is buried like a Sansyasin and there is no Shraddham. Only Samaradhanai.

I might do more research when I think I am ready for the Sannyasa Ashrama. I am not ready right now.

 

[malgova.mango]

What I heard...

If a Brahmachary without going to Grhasta Ashrama, if he want's to take Sanyasa, then as a final expression of gratitude he performs the shrarda for his fore-parents.

So there is no such thing like "Atma Pinda" ....

Hope this clarifies .........

Coutesty - My father in Law

Regards
malgova.mango

 

[R.S.IYER]

DEAR SIR,
I am not exactly ABLE TO understand your question but ceremoney for self is being done at GAYA, (kasi) WHICH IS CALLED GAYA SRARTHAM.(aTHMA pINDAM).
iF ANYTHING WRONG IN MY OBSERVATION KINDLY CLARIFY.
REGARDS
R.S.IYER

 

[malgova.mango]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sirs.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In a Shrardham , we please our fore-fathers. We invite them, give argya padhyam, annam and other upacharams, we seek their blessing and bid fare-well. This is what happens in a Shrardam.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In Atma Pindam we please whom? , we please oneself? Then self-praise is equal to suicide atleast according to shastra (Ref- Mahabharata ) and the same shastra cannot advocate for self – pleasing in the form of Atma pindam.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Please enlighten me if, I'm wrong in my conceptions any where.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]malgova.mango[/FONT]

 

[vedanti]

Atma Pindam

It Is Very Regretful To Note That Many Unfit Persons Are Also Called Or Referred To As Acharyals.only The Gurus Of The 4 Amnaya Peetams Established By Adi Shankaraaree Called Acharyal Or Jagadguru, And The 4 Peetams Are Joshi Mutt - North, Puri - East, Sringeri - South And Dwaraka - West,
Out Of These 4 Mutts Sringeri Peetam Is Considered As The Authority Peetam, Since Adi Shankara Spent Over 12 Years Of His Worldly 32 Years In Sringeri And His Most Illustrous Disciple Sureshwara Was The First Peetadhipathi.
Illustorus Because The Other 3 Disciples Went In Search Of Shankara, While Shankara Went In Search On Sureshwara, And Till Today It Has An Unbroken Chain Of Hereditary ( Avichina Parampara)

Hence The Acharyal Of Sringeri Would Be The Only Suitable And Eligible Person To Answer This Question In The Right Way As Per Sanatana Dharma To The Earnest Seeker

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Vedanti

It is very regrettable that many unfit persons decide and declare who is a Shankaracharya and at the same time denigrate the Acharyas too.

Have you gone through the evidence available to state the year of birth of Adi Shankara as 509 BCE? Have you gone through the evidence in the form of stone art and epigraphy in and around Kanchipuram, which bear testimony to the age of Adi Shankara?

Have you studied the relationship between Koodali Shringeri Acharya and the Amani Shringeri Acharya? How would one resolve the Guru- sishya relationship over there? Are you fully aware that there are many Shankaracharyas in and around Shringeri itself?

It would be better to avoid use of strong language and study the subject without any bias and emotions to arrive at the facts.

I have enough material to prove the age of Adi Shankara as BCE contrary to what is claimed by only some (not all) of the Shringeri followers. There are sufficient Sanskrit literature to prove this fact. It must be noted that all the other three Shankarachayas have since resolved and agreed publicly on the birth year of Adi Shankara as 509 BCE.

The Kanchi Matham is the Sarvagna Peetham. The Adhishtanam of Bhagavat Pada Adi Shankara is located inside the Kamakshi Temple in Kanchipuram, north east of the sanctum sanctorum in the second Praharam. Sri Sureshwaracharya's adhishtanam is located inside the present Kanchi Matham premises. There is a Sri Vinayaka Vigraham in the Kanchi Matham premises and a wall stone work depicting Adi Shankara, which stone work date nearly 2000 years. This age is establised by noted Archeologists using the scientific methods of dating the sculptures. If Bhagavat Pada's stone sculptures dating more than 1500 years are found in more than ten places in and around Kanchipuram why does some of (but not all) the followers of Shringeri claim the age of Adi Shankara as just around 1200 years. It is simply because they donot have the lineage list of Acharyas complete with them. Please see these aspects and arrive at an informed decision rather than inflaming the passions. There are some who make use of the loss of buildings and sculptures in the Kanchi Matham (due to Hyder Ali's invasion of Vellore region during the 1740s and 1750s) to tarnish the name of Kanchi Shankara Matham and thereby indirectly they damage Hinduism as well. In this episode the "leading lights" are some Tamil Brahmins themselves.

If you need any further evidence on this please feel free to send personal messages and I shall be duty bound to answer your queries and so will you be too duty bound to answer my queries. It will also be a pre-condition that none of us shall use words that show the least disrespect to any Acharya. I am constrained to state this condition because of the tone and tenor of the first sentence in your post, which is unbecoming of a Vedanti to say the least.

 

[ravisastrigal]

Hari: Om - Eventhough I got the copy of "Srartha Kaandam" in which the details of Param and Aparam has been explained. In any case, in one of the previous reply, a nice and authentic(Answer from H H Sankaracharya) answer has been provided. It will be good, we get satisfied with that. It is humble request, to discuss(Tharkam) and acquire knowledge and things which will lead us towards peace and prosperity(eternal). If my view or opinion, is not suitable to your expectations, kindly set it aside.

 

[malgova.mango]

Namaskarams

Swagatam!

Atlast a learned practitioner , willing to contribute in this forum. My anantha koti namskarams

regards
malgova.mango

 

[vedanti]

Let Reason Rule Over Passion
1. Archives Available At Archeaology Deptartment Of Kerala Show Manuscripts Proving Beyond Doubt That Adi Shankara Was Born During 9th Century,and It Was Based On These Original Documents Of Kochi Raja Parampara And Trichur Temple Olai Chavudi,indian Government After A Careful Study And Research Declared In The Gazette That Adi Shankara Was Born During 9th Century
2. Additional Prrof Of This Is Available At Kashmir Kingdom Archives And Kasi Mahasamstana Charitam All Available Archives Mainted By Historians Time To Time Prove Beyond Doubtthe Time Of Shankara
Also Shiva Stavam By Appaya/neelakanta Dikshitar Also Refers To The Same

Kanchi Matam Popularly Known As Kumbakonam Matam Till About 40 Years Back Was Only A Small Mutt At Kumbakonam,if You Go Through The Land Record Sof Kanchipuram You Will Find That Kanchi Mutt Purchased The Place From Mosque Land In Early 50`s And Called Itself Kamakoti Peetam
For Further Reading With Authenticated Proof With Copy Of Evidence Read And Understand Kamakoti Shatakoti By Rajagopal Sharma- Ironically It Was After Release Of This Book Kanchi Mutt Put Up A Stupa At Kalady-acknowleding It As Birth Place Of Shankara-automaticaaly Acknowledging The Time Of Birth Too.

Even The Archives Of Tanjore Maratas The Kings Of Tanjore It Tells How Kumbakonam Mutt Came Into Exixtence And The Other Legacies Understand Muzhu Pushunikaya Chathikulla Maraka Mudiyathu
Even Archives Of Ramanathapuram Kingdom Throws Lot Of Light Into This And The Autobiography Of One Of The Recent Kings Of Ramanathapuram Or Ramnad Tells About Lot Of Stories With Evidences Of Record Manuplacations.
As A Vedanti My Humble Request Is That Please Shed Egos Apart And Try To Understand Truth Which Is The Basics For Moksha Marga
There Are Only 4 Vedas,4 Maha Vakyas,4 Directions And 4 Mutts

Coming Back To Our Point On Atma Pindam - Garuda Puram Which Is Thee Authoritative Text On Life After Death And All Sharda Related Queries Does Not Mention Anything About Atma Pindam
Nor Any Purana Or Upanishads Or Dharma Sastram Does Not Mention Abt Atma Pindam

 

[ravisastrigal]

Nalan

I am really happy that I have found the right place to improve my knowledge and involve my self in community service. Let us strive together to probagate the benefits of following the tradition of follwoing Vaideeka Brammanathvam.

Regards to all members,

Nalan.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Vedanti

Namaskarams.

I am thankful that you have decided to let Reason Rule over Passion, listening to my words.

You have stated:

1. Archives Available At Archeaology Deptartment Of Kerala Show Manuscripts Proving Beyond Doubt That Adi Shankara Was Born During 9th Century,and It Was Based On These Original Documents Of Kochi Raja Parampara And Trichur Temple Olai Chavudi,indian Government After A Careful Study And Research Declared In The Gazette That Adi Shankara Was Born During 9th Century
2. Additional Prrof Of This Is Available At Kashmir Kingdom Archives And Kasi Mahasamstana Charitam All Available Archives Mainted By Historians Time To Time Prove Beyond Doubtthe Time Of Shankara

My reply:

I am unable to comprehend whether you have had access to these Archives of the Archeology department of Kerala at all. You also assert that these manuscripts prove beyond doubt that Adi Shankara was born during 9th Century. You have not mentioned if it is BCE or CE. I assume that you have only referred to CE going by the claims made by some (not all) the followers of Shringeri Matham. You also base them on the original documents of Kochi Raja Parampara and Trichur Temple Olai Chuvadi. Or for that matter the Archives of Kashmir Kingdom or Kasi Mahasamstana Charitram. I have my doubts as to whether you have even seen them as well as the so called Gazatte that you refer to, which states that Adi Shankara was born during the 9th Century. I can say with certainty that you have not read them, seen them or even had any access to them, that you have not even met someone who had so read, seen or had any access.
You may be surprised at such blatant denial by me. I have arrived at this fact simply on the basis of your claim that "it is proved beyond doubt that Adi Shankara was born during the 9th Century" This is not in line even with the claim of some (not all) of the followers of Shringeri Matham. They claim that the year of birth of Adi Shankara as 788 CE. That is eighth century CE and not 9th Century CE. Therefore I arrive at the conclusion that you have not gone through the very records quoted by you or for that matter the claim of some (not all) Shringeri followers. I request you to please read the relevant records (including the ones that I can give you if there is a way of personal contact) and arrive at an informed decision yourselves. It would be advisable for you not to pass a decree on the age of Adi Shankara without reading the records.
I may mention here that you have chosen to ignore the stone art and sculptures that I have already referred to in my earlier post and given a conclusive status to the records that you have never even seen. Any historian would say that the stone art and sculptures of India have a better historic value than the manuscripts as the manuscripts do have the possibility of interpolations during the interrugnum (later years). It may also be possible that the old manuscripts would have lost life and new ones substituted for the old. Moreover the Kochi Rajavamsam commences during 12th Century CE. How can that be authentic source to decide the age of Adi Shankara which even according to some (not all) of the followers of Shringeri Matham is 788 CE. Do the Kochi Rajavamsam records have conclusive value on the age of Shankara even overriding the Adhishtanam of Sri Sureshwaracharya located in the Kanchi Maham premises? The answer is an emphatic "No"

By the way, what do the "Kochi Raja vamsam" say about their own history? Do they have the records to prove their own history? Not at all. They say the following about themselves:

"There is no historically written evidence about the emergence of Kingdom Of Cochin or of the Cochin Royal Family (Perumpadapu Swaroopam). All that is recorded are through folk tales and stories. So what we have today is only a blurred picture."

How do you assert then that the Kochi Royal Family library has manuscripts that prove the age of Shankara beyond doubt as 9th Century?

By the way even the Kerala Namboothiris do not state that Sri Adi Shankara established Mathams at Shringeri, Dwarakai, Badri, Pune and Kanchi, but state that the mathams were Thekke Matham (in Trichur), Idayil Matham, Vadakke Matham and Naduvil Matham. Therefore there is no way a record could be there in Kochi Archives stating the way you have mentioned that is that "there were only four Amneyas Shringeri, Dwaraka, Badri and Pune." If at all it is there, it should only state about the Thekke Matham at Trichur and not Shringeri. The following is the claim of the Kerala Namboothiris.

In addition to the established Kerala roots of Sree Sankaraachaarya Bhagavath Paadar, there are legends and popular believes that bring forth his zeal and concern for the improvement and progress of the people of Kerala. Some of these are briefly mentioned here.
The "Kollavarsham", the Malayalam Era is said to have been established in his honour. (see box).
The 64 Anaachaarams was established by him specially for Kerala.
Four Samnyaasi Matthams were established in Thrissivaperoor by Sankaraachaaryar. He kept his disciple Padmapaadar in charge of Thekke (south) Mattham, Sureswaran, that of Naduvil (middle) Mattham, Hasthaamalakan in Itayil (in-between) Mattham, and Thodakan in Vadakke (north) Mattham. Itayil Mattham later merged with Thekke Mattham; Vadakke Mattham later became a school for Rigvedam studies, and came to be called "Brahmaswam Mattham".
Contrary to an opinion in some quarters that the Aachaaryar did not have any disciples from Kerala, it is believed that Padmapaadar and Chithsukhan were Namboothiris from Kerala. A Granthham, "Padmapaada Charitham" identifies him as a Namboothiri from Vemanna Amsom of Alathur. He is credited by some to have himself established Thekke Mattham of Thrissur, where later, Vilwamangalam, the author of "Krishna Karnaamritham", was a Swaamiyaar. Apparently there was to be another Padmapaadaachaaryar in Thekke Mattham much later during the 13th century, who earlier was one Neelakandhan, son of Keera Sarman of Kondayur, on the banks of the Nila river. There is also a belief that it was Padmapaadar who established the temple and consecrated the deity at Badari and who set the norm that only a Namboothiri from Kerala, should be the priest there.
source: http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/sankaraachaaryar.htm

It is therefore I state with reason that you have not had any access to these archives.

I will continue......

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Vedanti

Namaskarams again. I continue to place my reply before you.

You had given the following as proof of Shankara Matham at Kanchi not being founded by Sri Adi Shankara:

Also Shiva Stavam By Appaya/neelakanta Dikshitar Also Refers To The Same

I have not read the stated work of Sri Appayya Dikshitar. I am ignorant of this. I will try to get to it, have it read and explained to me. I do not know if I will be blessed to get near it. I made an enquiry with an elderly scholar as to this work named Shiva Stavam by Sri Appayya Dikshitar. He said that Dikshitar had rendered at least 104 works in Sanskrit and to his little knowledge "Shiva Stavam" did not figure in that. He remembered that Sri Appayya Dikshitar had rendered "Varadaraja Stavam" "Apitakuchamba Stavam" and "Shanti Stavam" He stated that these were in the nature of praise of the respective God or Goddess and not in the nature of any history. He added that the work may carry a different name too as most of the literary works carry more than one name. He has asked me to request you to please inform if there is another name for this work or as to whether and where one could get access to it. He added that Sri Appayya Dikshitar was a philosopher and not a historian. Though he was a Chief Minister in a kingdom, he had written only about philosophy, advaita, visishtatvaita, dvaita , bhashyams or commentaries, or stotras on Vishnu, Shiva or Shakti. His mentioning about the Shringeri or Kanchi Matham in his works would be far from reality was his view.

The logic goes thus: If the Shankara Matham was existing in Kanchipuram during his life time, he need not have referred to it. If it did not exist as claimed by some (not all) followers of Shringeri Matham, he still need not have referred to it. Needless to say, he would not have said that the Kanchi Matham was not founded by Adi Shankara as claimed by some (and not all) followers of Shringeri Matham, who even now claim that only during the life time of Paramacharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswati Swamigal, the Shankaracharya in the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham lineage, that the Matham was founded by Adi Shankara.

Sri Appayya Dikshitar's family deity (Kula Devata) was Sri Margabandhuswamy. These days many claim to be Appayya Dikshitar's Vamsam and "good lot" of them are followers of Shringeri. "Sir" C.P.Ramasamy Iyer's siblings are among them. All these claimants to the lineage of Sri Appayya Dikshitar do not worship Sri Margabandhuswamy as the Kula Devata, which proves their false claim to the lineage of Sri Appayya Dikshitar. These are the ones who state that Sri Dikshtar was a follower of Shringeri and I presume that you have quoted Sri Dikshitar arising out of such hearsay. Hearsay is not history. Our traditions, gothras, pravarams above all Kula Devata give us the vital lead to various points in history. I can say that Sri Dikshitar was a follower of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham as I know personally some in the real vamsavali of Sri Dikshitar and they even to day are the followers of Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham and they have Sri Margabandhuswamy as the Kuladevata.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Vedanti

Namaskarams again. My reply continues.

You had stated:

Kanchi Matam Popularly Known As Kumbakonam Matam Till About 40 Years Back Was Only A Small Mutt At Kumbakonam,if You Go Through The Land Record Sof Kanchipuram You Will Find That Kanchi Mutt Purchased The Place From Mosque Land In Early 50`s And Called Itself Kamakoti Peetam

This is precisely what I had earlier stated. Due to the Muslim invasion during 1740s and 1750s (Hyder Ali captured Vellore in 1752 CE) the Kanchi Matham shifted to Kumbakonam unable to bear the ill treatment. You have proved the point that the Matham lands were usurped by Hyder Ali's men and a mosque was put up there. Later when the things were better politically, the Matham returned to its original place. Later it would have purchased "its own land" from the mosque. But that doesnot mean that the Matham was not founded by Adi Shankara.

As to the Kumbakonam Matham, it is only during a visit of a Shringeri Acharya to Kumbakonam there was a skirmish among the followers of both the Acharyas resulting in a law and order problem, in which the British Court ruled in favour of the Kanchi followers. This incident is kept in mind by the followers of Shringeri and they have cooked up the story that the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham is not founded by Sri Adi Shankara and they carry on this vicious propaganda till date.

I will continue .....

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Vedanti

Namaskarams again. I continue my reply:

Ironically It Was After Release Of This Book Kanchi Mutt Put Up A Stupa At Kalady-acknowleding It As Birth Place Of Shankara-automaticaaly Acknowledging The Time Of Birth Too.

I am unable to comprehend as to how the putting up of a Stupi at Kaladi would acknowledge the time of birth. What is the connection? The Stupi does contain the correct birth year of Adi Shankara as 509 BCE. If that is what you mean by acknowledgment of the time of birth then - yes it is 509 BCE.