Panchabhootas and the sense organs

[sravna]

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There is an incredible amount of knowledge in our vedas, which can be used for understanding the world better and also be used for the betterment of mind and body.

I will give my understanding of what is said in the vedas in the way it adds to one's useful knowledge.

The five fundamental elements mentioned in the vedas are ether, air, fire, water and earth. These form the basis of all matter and energy in the universe. Starting from ether which is the most connected energy, others one by one are projected until earth is finally projected from water.

Basically air is nothing but disconnected ether and fire is disconnected air and so on , earth being the most disconnected of the five elements. In other words ether represents the most spiritual form of the five elements and earth the least.

Among our sense perceptions, hearing is used for most evolved perceptions as only by listening you gain subtle knowledge. Touch, sight, taste and smell in that order become less and less capable of conveying subtle knowledge and in bringing us self control. So the five sense organs of ear, skin, eyes, tongue and nose would represent the five elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth respectively.

 

[tbs]

There is an incredible amount of knowledge in our vedas, which can be used for understanding the world better and also be used for the betterment of mind and body.

I will give my understanding of what is said in the vedas in the way it adds to one's useful knowledge.

The five fundamental elements mentioned in the vedas are ether, air, fire, water and earth. These form the basis of all matter and energy in the universe. Starting from ether which is the most connected energy, others one by one are projected until earth is finally projected from water.

Basically air is nothing but disconnected ether and fire is disconnected air and so on , earth being the most disconnected of the five elements. In other words ether represents the most spiritual form of the five elements and earth the least.

Among our sense perceptions, hearing is used for most evolved perceptions as only by listening you gain subtle knowledge. Touch, sight, taste and smell in that order become less and less capable of conveying subtle knowledge and in bringing us self control. So the five sense organs of ear, skin, eyes, tongue and nose would represent the five elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth respectively.

hi

in VIDYRANYA'S PANCHADASI.....very clear abt panchabhootas/pancha jnendriya/pancha karmendriyas...

 

[sravna]

hi

in VIDYRANYA'S PANCHADASI.....very clear abt panchabhootas/pancha jnendriya/pancha karmendriyas...

Dear Shri TBS,

One of my objectives is to make vedas to stand by itself as a credible alternative/complement to science and not just relate it to science. I think this way we can see the world and life in a wholly different way something that is being powered by a harmonizing energy which is the real protagonist and not by force which is the protagonist of science.

 

[renuka]

Basically air is nothing but disconnected ether and fire is disconnected air and so on , earth being the most disconnected of the five elements. In other words ether represents the most spiritual form of the five elements and earth the least.

Dear Sravna,

Why do you choose to say Disconnection here?

On the contrary everything is interconnected.

Before that if you read Vidyaranya's Panchadasi *(available at Ramarkrishna Mission)...it gives a clear account of how each element has a fraction of each other in varying ratios.

Also what we call Panchabhoota..for example just say the Ether element itself is a made up of fractions of other elements.

Before becoming Panchabhootha there is a state called Mahapanchabhoota where each Maha(Great) Element is in the pure state sans combination and only then they start to combine also again in varying fractions to form the Panchabhoota which in turn again undergo combinations to form various components of nature.

Also there are gross and subtle combinations with influence of Gunas that leads to formation of gross organs and subtle organs.

Its a whole table of various combinations.

Whatever said and done there is no disconnect at any stage once Panchikarana(Grossification) has started kicking into action.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Why do you choose to say Disconnection here?

On the contrary everything is interconnected.

Before that if you read Vidyaranya's Panchadasi *(available at Ramarkrishna Mission)...it gives a clear account of how each element has a fraction of each other in varying ratios.

Also what we call Panchabhoota..for example just say the Ether element itself is a made up of fractions of other elements.

Before becoming Panchabhootha there is a state called Mahapanchabhoota where each Maha(Great) Element is in the pure state sans combination and only then they start to combine also again in varying fractions to form the Panchabhoota which in turn again undergo combinations to form various components of nature.

Also there are gross and subtle combinations with influence of Gunas that leads to formation of gross organs and subtle organs.

Its a whole table of various combinations.

Whatever said and done there is no disconnect at any stage once Panchikarana(Grossification) has started kicking into action.

Dear Renuka,

Projection happens by the breaking, you can call it veiling, of interconnectedness. Yes I agree that each element has every other element in some proportion.but I believe it is the extent of interconnectedness that really differentiates the elements from one another.

 

[sravna]

In my view the notion of time should be tied to conscious energy i.,e when energy is at a level that it becomes conscious of itself, time begins to flow for it. So for time to make sense, there has to be both a perceiver and the perceived. It is this energy of time that projects the first of the five elements i.e., the ether. The energy starting from ether and the other four elements are not conscious energies.

 

[renuka]

In my view the notion of time should be tied to conscious energy i.,e when energy is at a level that it becomes conscious of itself, time begins to flow for it. So for time to make sense, there has to be both a perceiver and the perceived. It is this energy of time that projects the first of the five elements i.e., the ether. The energy starting from ether and the other four elements are not conscious energies.

Dear Sravna,

Scientific theory states the Universe consists of three fundamental entities---Space-Time,Matter and Consciousness.

Ok coming to religious philosophy...Consciousness is all pervading.

So why do you choose to say energy starting from ether and the rest of the elements are not conscious energies.

BTW what do you exactly mean by conscious energy?

Energy is Energy..it functions independently.

 

[sravna]

Time itself is projected from the timeless energy that is brahman, When time was projected from brahman, the disconnectedness took away the effect of bliss and when the five elements were formed, the disconnectedness took away the consciousness. So the entities in space time themselves disabled to see reality because of the veil of maya started from the lowest reality of mere existence.

But evolution proceeds with harmonious coming together of energies making one go through the stages of existence, consciousness and finally getting the bliss after becoming one with brahman again. Once the veil over the soul is removed after evoluton i.e, attaining the ability to see interconnectedness, the effects of projection are overcome.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Scientific theory states the Universe consists of three fundamental entities---Space-Time,Matter and Consciousness.

Ok coming to religious philosophy...Consciousness is all pervading.

So why do you choose to say energy starting from ether and the rest of the elements are not conscious energies.

BTW what do you exactly mean by conscious energy?

Energy is Energy..it functions independently.

Dear Renuka,

I believe energies differ in their capabilities. Through science we know only of physical energies and so we do not really consider that they are qualitatively different. But consider that brahman is also energy and would you equate in a practical sense, brahman with physical energy? We need to differentiate mainly for us to understand them in depth and eventually we can reconcile whatever differences they may have.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Mind is an example of conscious energy

 

[renuka]

Time itself is projected from the timeless energy that is brahman, When time was projected from brahman, the disconnectedness took away the effect of bliss and when the five elements were formed, the disconnectedness took away the consciousness. So the entities in space time themselves disabled to see reality because of the veil of maya started from the lowest reality of mere existence.

Whoa Sravna,

This is almost impossible to comprehend!

I dont get it...you mean to say after matter was formed..consciousness was taken away?

That would only mean creation is totally inert..Jada..sans consciousness..that can't make sense.

Also what is the use of having matter without consciousness?

You are making it sound as if we start off as sans consciousness and we strive to get it back.

I disagree...consciousness is present.


We perceive the world purely due to consciousness..but how we perceive the world depends on our brain.

In fact neuroscience says that we do NOT see the world as how it really is.

Whatever we see is becos of how our brain perceives it.

Let me give you a simple example.

A color blind person and a normal person.

A color blind person for example perceives certain shades of color differently..what is red to a normal person might appear a different hue to a color blind person.

Going by this even normal people who are not color blind assume red is red..but is it?

Perception and interpretation goes through the brain.

At times we are unable to interpret well in some situations where perception could be challenged..example..an image falling on the blindspot or even seeing an optical illusion or why go so far..the famous mistaking rope in the dark for a snake.

So a great extent the brain forms our perception...next is our mind....but only possible becos of consciousness.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Evolution does the reverse of what the projections do.

So projections produce lower and lower level of spiritual elements, whereas evolution brings together these elements and forms higher levels till one becomes one with brahman.

Makes sense?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Evolution does the reverse of what the projections do.

So each projection keeps on producing lower and lower level of spiritual elements, evolution brings together these elements and forms higher levels till one becomes one with brahman.

Makes sense?

Dear Sravna,

I feel you have a pre conceived notion about spirituality that is clouding a lot of your interpretation.

Even theories about 5 elements and Panchikarana are very technical and scientific and does not talk about spirituality anywhere.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I feel you have a pre conceived notion about spirituality that is clouding a lot of your interpretation.

Even theories about 5 elements and Panchikarana are very technical and scientific and does not talk about spirituality anywhere.

Dear Renuka,

I am just putting forth my understanding with logic. I am definitely open to discuss any thing

(i) that is illogical in what I present
(ii) inconsistent with what is said in the vedas

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I am just putting forth my understanding with logic. I am definitely open to discuss any thing

(i) that is illogical in what I present
(ii) inconsistent with what is said in the vedas

Terms used in texts are Gross(Sthoola) and Subtle(Sookshma)....both are just different in vibrational frequency of their matter.

No where any indication of spirituality is ever mentioned.

 

[sravna]

Terms used in texts are Gross(Sthoola) and Subtle(Sookshma)....both are just different in vibrational frequency of their matter.

No where any indication of spirituality is ever mentioned.

Dear Renuka,

To have a serious discussion, put together in a coherent manner your main objections to what I have said. I will try to address them.