Opposition for Tamil in Temples

[hariharan1972]

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I came across a news item that the Chidambaram Temple Administration has obtained a stay from the Honble Madras High Court against the order of the HR & CE Commissioner's decision allowing a 73 year old Sivanadiyar to sing "Thiruvasagam" in Chidambaram temple.

From what i read, the HR & CE commissioner had allowed the Sivanadiyar to sing Thiruvasagam after the completion of the aagama poojas & also in a manner that is not obstructing the flow of the devotees.

Naturally the obtaining of the stay by the Chidambaram Deekshidars has been lambasted by Viduthalai.

Ignoring the criticism of Viduthalai, i want to raise certain moot questions

a) One of the most viewed / responded threads in our forum is the thread on "Are Tamil Brahmins not tamilians". How incongruent it is then, to claim ourselves as part of tamilians while a section obtains injunction against using tamil in temples ?

b) Practically speaking, except for the pooja, 100% of the conversation in the temple, among the devotees, between deekshidars & devotess happen in tamil, so what is so wrong in someone singing Thiruvasagam in praise of the Lord ?

c) Let us not play the safe route of tradition,agama etc... Clearly the decision by the HR & CE was permitting the Sivanadiyar to sing Thiruvasagam AFTER the aagama poojas were completed. So no tradition was broken or sought to be broken.

d) The person so wishing to sing thiruvasagam is a 73 year old sivanadiyar. Should we at all deny a grand old man his rights to appeal to Lord in his own language ?

e) I have the greatest regards for Sanskrit. But should our regard for Sanskrit blind us so much so that we cannot allow the works of Appar, Sundarar, Gnanasambandar, Manikkavasagar to be sung in temples ? Are they lesser mortals just because they didn't compose in Sanskrit ?

f) The saying i have come across is "Thiruvasagathukku urugadhavar oru vasagadhukkum urugar". What is so unholy about allowing Thiruvasagam being sung in temples ? I certainly don't think Lord Shiva will take any offence !

A narrow application of whatever rules & regulations by the Deekshidars gives such a big handle to the KKKs to portray the entire brahmin community as villains of tamil & mud-sling us.

I think there is an urgent need for us, brahmins, to overhaul the "unnecessarily rigid" aspects of our religious beliefs and learn to sail with the tide. Else we run the risk of totally getting ostracised.

 

[fire]

Language issues in Temples

Note : Except second para , others are general opinions .Not related with ur question.

I have visited a number of temples and I have seen all they recite mantras from Sanskrit. Well , most of the names of the God is in Sanscrit may be because of Hindu's old scriptures are in Sanskrit.Sometimes I will have a question in mind. Are the language issues raised by Political persons rather than true devotees?? Did Appar,sundarar ,Manikavasagar asked for Tamil poojas in temples ? How come the same people who pick up some songs from tamil literature and say it is calling for abusing women of Jainism , support the singing of the songs inside the temples??

Particularly in this case the reasons of dikshithars opposing the move are not clear. If you give their perspective and on what basis court stayed it , we can come with a clear view. I am not sure if they object to sing there (in any language ) or object to sing in Tamil alone(meaning they will allow him to sing in Sanskrit).In the latter case I feel the move was wrong .

I have seen Tamil songs are sung in some temples by the devotees. How good the argument 'Sanscrit is not known to us....Sing in Tamil so that all people can know the meaning.Because its our mother tongue'.
I feel most of the people( i guess this includes the people doing poojas ) donno the meaning of sanscrit slogas.And a considerable number of people feel the ancient tamil also difficult to understand.

I am sure Shiva wont object even we sing it in English or in Binary language or without any language.

If people are much more affectionate in Tamil, Please send your children to Tamil medium schools. People donno about the basic Tamil Grammar properly. They learn English , go abroad( I welcome it.But have guts to say if u study in Tam,ur future will be doomed in public).Then boast yourself as a Tam savior.Don't be a political Tam.Be a real tam.Spread it by reading more and spread the sweetness and depth of the language.If you have much affectionate to Tamils help thousands of poor tamils...The same arguments will hold for caste, nation or state and religion etc.

Anti Hindu stand and pro Tamil literature stand will result in a contradiction I think.Thats y EVR blamed Kannaki and old tamil literatures and made the statement 'Katu mirandi' language.Kanaka SUbbu Rathinam blamed Kambar.

There was message 'Tamililum archanai seiyap padum' in temples.I remember seeing a message in Tanjore 'Tamilil archanai seiyap padum.Samiscrithathlayum seiyap padum'. My question is if they are doing most tamil archanas than sanscrit archanas??
If not , does it look like a CBSE school having a board like ' We will teach tamil.We teach in English also'.

I feel im better Tamilian than people who send their kids to Don bosco and enact a law for making Tam a compulsory language in schools.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- if the dikshithars say 'you can sing in any language, but not in tamil', then that can be said to be opposition to tamil. but the stand of dikshithars is 'you can sing only in sanskrit'. how can this be anti tamil?

2. if a 73 yr. old person wants to drink cigarette inside chidambaram temple, should it be allowed on the pretext that 'he is an old man.'???

3. if 'thiruvaasagathuku urugaathavar oru vaasagathkkum urugar' is true, then should it be allowed to be sung even inside mosques &churches, as it is so great???

4. is tamil such a weak language that it can be protected only if it is sung in some temples? should love for tamil blind a person so much that even age old agamas & traditions must be broken just for this single man?

5. if tamil is not allowed in any temple, that is objectionable. but there are only a few temples where tamil is not allowed. in many private temples, people follow their own pattern of worship, where tamil alone is sung.

6. in the same chidambaram temple, even a sanskrit hymn in praise of lord vishnu will not be allowed. does this mean dikshitharas are anti bramin?

7. devotion and tradition are very closely linked. you cannot ignore tradition and concentrate on devotion. the tradition in chidambaram is reciting in sanskrit alone. allowing a person to recite a tamil song even after AGAMA pooja is a violation of tradition. if each & every devotee wants to sing publicly like this in orthodox temples, there will be no time to look after other aspects in temples!

8. even sanskrit slogas & mantras recited in temples all over t.nadu are written in tamil only, whereas in mosques they read, write & recite in arabic, which is not even an indian language!

9. rationally speaking, there is no need for recitation of any prayer or song in temples at all! after all god is so great, he can understand what is going on in your mind. then , instead of opposing the very notion of archanas, prayers & recitation, it is strange 'rationalists' are saying 'god is non existent. but if you want to pray to god , pray in tamil! ' if god is non existent, then it is as foolish praying to him in tamil, as it is praying in any other language.

10. just because bramins allow tamil in temples, 'rationalists' are not going to stop abusing bramins.

11. traditions cannot be modified,changed or tampered by anybody- even dikshithars. you either respect them or ignore them.. no question of any change.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - if bramins are not tamils because they emphasise on sanskrit, what about muslims who emphasise on arabic, which is not even an indian language? by the same yardstick, muslims are not even indians!

in temples, or for that matter in any place of worship in india, even national anthem cannot be recited. does that mean temples are abodes of traitors???

the very purpose of building temples is to give satisfaction to devotees who cannot visit holy temples at far off places to come to these temples at nearby places so that they have the feeling of worshipping in an atmosphere similar to the one prevailing to the one in far off holy temples. tampering with traditions at the whims and fancies of some devotees defeats the very purpose of building temples.

sanskrit must have been introduced in orthodox temples, many , many centuries before tamil. so, there is no scope for tamil or any other language, as sanskrit has already occupied all the space.

 

[hariharan1972]

Interesting observations | Few points

Fire ji / Suresh ji,

Interesting observations from both of you.

First let me state that i don't have complete information of this case. I tripped upon an article in Viduthalai that stay had been obtained. (The same magazine (?) had few days ago 'welcomed' the decision of the HR & CE commissioner).

So if i have to read between the lines, i think the objection was to singing in tamil only. I could be wrong & if pointed out, i will correct myself.

Now to your reactions :

First things first - My responses in blue italics (since Chintanaji holds the TM for Maroon)

Fireji,

Are the language issues raised by Political persons rather than true devotees??

Does it matter ? I think the issue here is important than who is behind it

Did Appar,sundarar ,Manikavasagar asked for Tamil poojas in temples ? How come the same people who pick up some songs from tamil literature and say it is calling for abusing women of Jainism , support the singing of the songs inside the temples??

The double-speak of KKKs can be exposed in many ways. Actually i want a discussion without dwelving into the action-reaction of the KKKs. The whole world knows their double-standards.

I am not sure if they object to sing there (in any language ) or object to sing in Tamil alone(meaning they will allow him to sing in Sanskrit).In the latter case I feel the move was wrong .

As stated, i am reading between lines. I 'think' the oppposition was to singing in tamil only. Thanks, i also feel the way you feel.

How good the argument 'Sanscrit is not known to us....Sing in Tamil so that all people can know the meaning.Because its our mother tongue'.

I think this is a fairly sound argument. Don't you ? More than mother tongue, i feel if the prayer can be done in a language which the devotee is comfortable with, it will accentuate his spiritual satisfaction. My own case - my mother tongue isn't tamil but it is the language i am most comfortable.

I am sure Shiva wont object even we sing it in English or in Binary language or without any language

Bingo ! i would include 'any language' too. We don't need language if all of us can understand all of us. It is only when we have to 'express' ourselves that we need the handle of language. For the lesser mortals, prayer in their own language is such a key ingredient of the spiritual experience.

If people are much more affectionate in Tamil, Please send your children to Tamil medium schools.

Fireji, this & your subsequent lines are appreciated. But i want to distinguish between discussing a matter of faith & matter of education. I think they are different. As i wrote earlier, let us not discuss the double-standards of KKKs here, since it is well established.

Net net, your major reasoning seems to be the fact that people who are behind the use of tamil in temples are no saints themselves & also that they get their sons-daughters-grand sons-grand daughters convent educated. I have tried to tell you that it is a different issue IMHO unconnected to this issue. This is not about 'tamil valarppu' but to make tamil available as a medium for those who aren't well versed in Sanskrit.

Sureshji,

Citing some extreme examples and challenging whether such practices will be followed in other religions, IMHO, doesn't constitute a valid defence.

Whether Thiruvasagam can be recited in Mosque & Church is something i can't decide or comment upon. But i know for a fact that one could wear shoes inside the church. Since christianity has demonstrated it, can we allow it inside temples ?

In summary, we need to dig deep within ourselves to find answers & not look upto other religions for answers. (Pasanga Paritchayila nee yenda 70 dhan vangi irukkenu ketta, paiyan ramesh 60 dhan vangi irukkan nu oru explanation tharuvanga parunga, andha madhiri namba adhutha religion aa point out panna mudiyuma ?)

As i mentioned to Fireji, this is not about any language being weak or strong or development of language. It is about providing an alternative medium to a sect of devotees who are not proficient enough in sanskrit.

rationally speaking, there is no need for recitation of any prayer or song in temples at all! after all god is so great, he can understand what is going on in your mind.

Will you extend this to poojas also ?

just because bramins allow tamil in temples, 'rationalists' are not going to stop abusing bramins.

Agreed. But isn't the point about reaching out to the believers rather than scoring brownie points over the rationalists. Frankly speaking KKKs & rationalists are a bunch of 'muranbattu mootai' (as vairam has penned in vaaji vaaji song !). So we needn't view "our" issues with the rationalist prism.

. traditions cannot be modified,changed or tampered by anybody- even dikshithars. you either respect them or ignore them.. no question of any change

It is definitely not my intention that we should change tradition or rules mindlessly. As i read recently, the only rule to breaking a rule is knowing which rule to break & why. It is not about breaking a tradition for the heck of it but i am trying to appeal to the intellectuals among the brahmin community to "review and remove" certain "unnecessary rigidities" which plague our religion.

The last word on this case hasn't been said. I don't know how the courts will react. But if the courts were to decide otherwise, i would believe that we have allowed the court to interfere in a religious aspect which we ourselves could have resolved amicably.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Hari,

I think this whole thing is about power. HR&CE does not have any jurisdiction over the Shaivite part of the Chidambaram temple. So said the Supreme Court long time ago. The Dikshidhars have the ultimate say over the affairs of God Nataraja there.

I do not think that this is about letting an old man sing the praises of the Lord in Tamil after the daily agamas are observed. There is something else missing from this story.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[murali]

Dear friends,
www.mugamoodi.blogspot.com had given a true account of the undercurrents ,when this issue erupted sometime back..I am not able to give the link.Those interested can find out.

The crux seems to be this.Only the dikshitars are allowed to sing from a certain pedestal.Tamil hymns are being sung by the dikshitars themselves during puja time from 1972 onwards.Devotees are allowed to sing everywhere except from the pedestal(this is explained by mugamoodi with a diagram,i am not able to recollect the date) and the garba-gruha.

The problem is being raked up by naastikas,brahmana baiters.I do not know about the latest problem.

 

[fire]

Language issue

Well. Issues are more important than the people raised it. But in the real world the background of the people will certainly give a clue about what side they are going to take and how truthful their argument is. Are we ready to listen to a lecture of say Musharaff on Democracy seriously ( Ofcourse if we want some comedy we can)?What will people say if assume Hitler,Polpot preach about Manitha neyam?? This is what we call 'Sathan Vedam oothuvathu'.

Coming to the issue my stand is clear but the situation is not pretty much clear. I wont be defending any wrong just because people who do are Brahmins. I think that goes against nature.After all, if u are expected to take on your relatives if they go against Dharma (as per Geetha) there is
no way of going with the side which u feel wrong. But anything ,any issue we talk please take a decision after a full reading and analysis of the issue.
In this case if no one is allowed to sing a song in any language its not a language issue.But if devotees are allowed to sing Telugu Keertanas and sanskrit slogas but not Tamil devotional song,its a language issue.

About sanskrit poojas I completely disagree that only a sect of people don't know it. Almost all will be the perfect word i guess. A few in matric take Sanskrit as optional language. For others ,including most of the brahmins its like arabic only. Many will read it without knowing the meaning of a single sentence. So in my view oppose to Tamil pooja is just to keep the tradition.
Even old tamil songs are not that easy to understand. It also requires a gud effort to know the meaning.The older the songs are the greater the difficulty. Truly speaking 90% of the tamil masters in TN cannot give the meaning of most of the tamil literature without a Konar Notes or on their own. I dont know if its the same situation in other languages also.

If a minister in TN assembly doesnt kill tamil during taking oath,its a greater service he is doing for the language.Ofcourse a few exceptions are there.

Nobody is going to oppose anyone's personal prayers . But if we think , peoples satisfaction is the greater thing than worshipping we can go for 'Kumbida pona theivam' song...All people understand far better than thiruvasagam.

And the muslim comparison also is a valid point. WHy not? The argument is not about copying the muslim or christian practices....If thats the case you can ask for allowing cheppals inside , christ statue inside temple,or no statues at all as muslim religion. I feel the underlying argument is we protect our culture as the other religions do. Allowing cheppals inside
is not part of our practice.

But I am very much disturbed by the way how politicians intervene in religious values. I wondered how Ilaiyaraja could make Thiruvasagam record as he would lose athiest political support. In the end , it was in Christian (or non Indian) music.He established his secular credentials.Many people like B.Raja and Vaiko praised him.Wud they do if he has done it in Karnatic music?? If we claim K.Music is really a Tam .music why not propagating it??

Fire ji / Suresh ji,

Interesting observations from both of you.

First let me state that i don't have complete information of this case. I tripped upon an article in Viduthalai that stay had been obtained. (The same magazine (?) had few days ago 'welcomed' the decision of the HR & CE commissioner).

So if i have to read between the lines, i think the objection was to singing in tamil only. I could be wrong & if pointed out, i will correct myself.

Now to your reactions :

First things first - My responses in blue italics (since Chintanaji holds the TM for Maroon)

Fireji,

Are the language issues raised by Political persons rather than true devotees??

Does it matter ? I think the issue here is important than who is behind it

Did Appar,sundarar ,Manikavasagar asked for Tamil poojas in temples ? How come the same people who pick up some songs from tamil literature and say it is calling for abusing women of Jainism , support the singing of the songs inside the temples??

The double-speak of KKKs can be exposed in many ways. Actually i want a discussion without dwelving into the action-reaction of the KKKs. The whole world knows their double-standards.

I am not sure if they object to sing there (in any language ) or object to sing in Tamil alone(meaning they will allow him to sing in Sanskrit).In the latter case I feel the move was wrong .

As stated, i am reading between lines. I 'think' the oppposition was to singing in tamil only. Thanks, i also feel the way you feel.

How good the argument 'Sanscrit is not known to us....Sing in Tamil so that all people can know the meaning.Because its our mother tongue'.

I think this is a fairly sound argument. Don't you ? More than mother tongue, i feel if the prayer can be done in a language which the devotee is comfortable with, it will accentuate his spiritual satisfaction. My own case - my mother tongue isn't tamil but it is the language i am most comfortable.

I am sure Shiva wont object even we sing it in English or in Binary language or without any language

Bingo ! i would include 'any language' too. We don't need language if all of us can understand all of us. It is only when we have to 'express' ourselves that we need the handle of language. For the lesser mortals, prayer in their own language is such a key ingredient of the spiritual experience.

If people are much more affectionate in Tamil, Please send your children to Tamil medium schools.

Fireji, this & your subsequent lines are appreciated. But i want to distinguish between discussing a matter of faith & matter of education. I think they are different. As i wrote earlier, let us not discuss the double-standards of KKKs here, since it is well established.

Net net, your major reasoning seems to be the fact that people who are behind the use of tamil in temples are no saints themselves & also that they get their sons-daughters-grand sons-grand daughters convent educated. I have tried to tell you that it is a different issue IMHO unconnected to this issue. This is not about 'tamil valarppu' but to make tamil available as a medium for those who aren't well versed in Sanskrit.

Sureshji,

Citing some extreme examples and challenging whether such practices will be followed in other religions, IMHO, doesn't constitute a valid defence.

Whether Thiruvasagam can be recited in Mosque & Church is something i can't decide or comment upon. But i know for a fact that one could wear shoes inside the church. Since christianity has demonstrated it, can we allow it inside temples ?

In summary, we need to dig deep within ourselves to find answers & not look upto other religions for answers. (Pasanga Paritchayila nee yenda 70 dhan vangi irukkenu ketta, paiyan ramesh 60 dhan vangi irukkan nu oru explanation tharuvanga parunga, andha madhiri namba adhutha religion aa point out panna mudiyuma ?)

As i mentioned to Fireji, this is not about any language being weak or strong or development of language. It is about providing an alternative medium to a sect of devotees who are not proficient enough in sanskrit.

rationally speaking, there is no need for recitation of any prayer or song in temples at all! after all god is so great, he can understand what is going on in your mind.

Will you extend this to poojas also ?

just because bramins allow tamil in temples, 'rationalists' are not going to stop abusing bramins.

Agreed. But isn't the point about reaching out to the believers rather than scoring brownie points over the rationalists. Frankly speaking KKKs & rationalists are a bunch of 'muranbattu mootai' (as vairam has penned in vaaji vaaji song !). So we needn't view "our" issues with the rationalist prism.

. traditions cannot be modified,changed or tampered by anybody- even dikshithars. you either respect them or ignore them.. no question of any change

It is definitely not my intention that we should change tradition or rules mindlessly. As i read recently, the only rule to breaking a rule is knowing which rule to break & why. It is not about breaking a tradition for the heck of it but i am trying to appeal to the intellectuals among the brahmin community to "review and remove" certain "unnecessary rigidities" which plague our religion.

The last word on this case hasn't been said. I don't know how the courts will react. But if the courts were to decide otherwise, i would believe that we have allowed the court to interfere in a religious aspect which we ourselves could have resolved amicably.

 

[NARAS]

Should Brahminism Be Declared A Separate Religion?

SIRS - Brahminism, as we all know was once a separate religion. but after advent of islamic & british invasion, all bramins & non bramins were clubbed as one inthe name of 'hindus'. this has helped the so called 'rationalists' to infiltrate into temples on the pretext of being 'hindus' and tamper with rituals, rites and traditions. if brahminism were to be declared as a separate religion, and all orthodox temples, i repeat only orthodox temples, are handed over to bramins, with the only condition that non bramin devotees should also be allowed entry into these temples, these types of problems will not occur. all priests and permanent employees in these temples will be bramins. like jainism, sikhism & buddhism, it will help bramins protect their ancient temples, traditions and prevent 'rationalists' & 'yellow shawlists' from poking their noses into these temples.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- Hari- you said 'thiruvasagam' is capable of making any person spellbound. that is why i asked if this 'any person' includes muslims and christians also. i was not implying that practices of one religion should be followed in another.

2. I only said from the angle of a 'rationalist' it makes no sense to insist on tamil pujas. after all, if you believe there is no god, it should never bother you in which language that god is addressed to. (pujas are made out of respect to god and not necessity). It is not god who asked us to do these prayers and pujas. it is we devotees , out of respect and affection to god , who do these prayers & pujas to god. if a guest comes to your house, it is you who have to serve him. like that devotees serve god.
. so a 'rationalist' should actually ask for abolishing prayers & pujas in temples, because, after all god can easily understand what is going on in our mind. strangely, instead of doing this, they are saying 'pujas & prayers are o.k. if they are in tamil. but foolish . if they are in sanskrit. what sort of rationalism is this????

3. it was the HR & CE commissioner by his foolish order, who forced dikshithars to go to court. it is not the mistake of devotees that the issue went to judiciary.

4. a true devotee is one who respects tradition of a temple. how can persons who for want of cheap publicity try to break well established practices of temples be called devotees? they are stooges of 'rationalists'.

 

[NARAS]

some more rational questions!

sirs- all the muslims in the dmk have arabic names. will the yellow shawlist have the guts, spine & courage to ask them to change their names to tamil names?

2. sanskrit is the only language in the world which nobody at present can claim as their mother tongue. so it is a universal language, unlike tamil or any other lanuguage which belongs to people who speak it as their mother tongue.

3. what is the need to change a tradition which has existed for centuries?

4. when govts. go for change in an existing system the need as well as the guarantee that the new arrangement is better than existing arrangment should be there. in this case both are absent.

5. today a devotee wants to sing a tamil song in the temple. tomorrow another devotee may like to sing a telugu song. day after tomorrow, yet another devotee may ask for a bengali song to be recited. so it will open the floodgates of mediocrity. it is better to stick to the present 'Only sanskrit' tradition.

 

[hariharan1972]

Pardon my ignorance | New direction

I wont be defending any wrong just because people who do are Brahmins. I think that goes against nature.

Fireji,

Glad you said this. I have similar thoughts.

Let me first admit my ignorance about the issue which is reflected in my first post. The blog referred by murali ji is quite a reveller and puts the issue in proper perspective.

The fact of the matter is that tamil songs are sung even by the deekshidhars. The opposition seems to be to a "certain person" singing from a "certain place". So it has caste undercurrents. I am side-stepping that issue.

Sureshji - When i said "Thiruvasagadhukku urugar oru vasagathukkum urugar" i was quoting a saying. It is unfair that you seek the 'explanation' for this from me, since i was only repeating a generic statement & not making my own inferences about Thiruvasagam. If i was making my own inference, then i would be able to answer you whether it applies to people from other faiths also.

Fireji - I was forced to talk about the "shoes issue" since it was Sureshji who threw the first salvo as to whether thiruvasagam will be allowed to be played in a Church or Mosque. I was trying to say that if "acceptance" by other faiths is a pre-condition for making any change in our Hindu system, then i was wondering why not implement something which they already follow. It is not my intention to start a fresh controversy. In summary, i will only repeat that we cannot look upto other faiths for any changes to be made in our religion. We have to dig deep within ourselves rather than point fingers at other faiths.

In hindsight i can only say that the thread was created in haste, due to my ignorance about the full facts of the case. I was peeved that Viduthalai should be "advising" us on how to run the temples & that was what got me going to start the discussion.

I suggest that either we close the thread or give a new direction to the thread.

The new direction could be to discuss/debate whether we should re-look at some of the "rigid" aspects of our religion, to what extent can they be flexed.

If this isn't ok, the Admin may kindly close the thread.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Hari and Fire,

I concur with Sri KRS. Definitely there is a missing part of the story.

Nobody wants to be known as doing wrong.

The so called social change in TN has not been brought about in a gentle way but with a vengence with no care for those who never did any wrong.

I am sure this resistance is not so much about the idea itself as the manner in which that change is being brought about.

Chintana.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - i did not say we must learn from other religions. i only said 'rationalists' never talk about reforming mosques and churches, where reforms are necessary,but tamper with temple rituals in the name of reforms , though there is no need for 'reforms ' in temples.

2. i do not think there is any scope to flex some 'rigid' aspects of our religion,for the simple reason there are no rigid aspects at all! the doors for 'reforms' have been closed centuries before. all the reforms have been completed. remember, orthodox hinduism is a sanatana dharma i.e. religion of permanent ideals, which cannot be tampered or modified as per whims and fancies of devotees or 'rationalists'. but if any person does not feel comfortable with the existing arrangement, he can always build and open new temples with his own set of rules and regulations like bangaru adigalar and many other persons have done. why tamper with existing traditions?

3. why is the muthuvelar karunanidhi ominously silent on this issue? and the muthuveli jayalalitha, who normally issues statements running to hundreds of pages daily is also strangely silent on this issue.

4. Mr. CHO says he will call karunanidhi as 'kalaignar' as a respect to the old age of the karunanidhi. but though poor & pathetic anbhzagan is 2 yrs.older than karunanidhi, CHO does not refer to him as 'periasiriyar' but only as anbazhagan. similarly, for 'rationalists' hinduism is like anbzhagan, other religions are like karunanidhi!

 

[silverfox]

I just happened to read thru this post. I am back in the US and I have time to read! ... finally!!
Based on Hari's observations/questions, I would like to submit my own views:
1. 'Thiruvaasagam' is beautiful Tamil poetry and it MUST be recited in all Temples (Saivaite).
2. God knows all languages and, so, it doesn't really matter what language we use; HE/SHE will understand!!
3. Both Azhwars of Vaishnava tradition and Naanyanmars of Saivaite tradition sang the praise of the Lord ONLY in Tamil. So, I submit that Tamil is God's language.
4. I understand even in Tirupathi, they use Sanskrit and Tamil only; not Telugu.
Having said all that, as Sri KRS has said, the TN government getting into Hindu temples' affairs is purely political and to create trouble so that they continue to reap the benefits.
5. As Fire has said, even Karunanidhi's clan go to top-notch English medium schools only. How dare they preach to the masses about learning Tamil?
6. In my seven months' stay in TN, I have observed that every place you go, they speak only in English, English is stressed in schools. At Padma Seshadri school where my grand-niece is in pre-KG (3 years), I was told that the school calls constantly to complain that the child doesn't speak in English in the classroom!!
We certainly are living in paradoxical times!

 

[NARAS]

sirs - as has been pointed inthis thread itself, the very same 'rationalists' abused tamil mantras, saying that in one tamil verse, sage manickavasagar says he wants to rape jain women! if this is true, then how can these sort of verses find place in temples? the 'rationalists' have also abused kamba ramayana as pornographic. i remember a communist leader called D. raja, (WHOSE ENGLISH IS AS GOOD AS MY URDU!) saying that in Bakthi movement, it is said god likes meat of young children! if this is also true, then how can bakthi literature find a place in temples? Mr. Cho has also said , it is difficult to understand many tamil verses also. so what is the point in reciting in tamil? after all these very 'rationalists' have abused that in tamil mantras there are double meaning verses bordering on vulgarity! sanskrit verses are not that much controversial

moreover, again i would like to repeat ours is sanatana dharma. all tenets associated with dharma are sanatana, i.e. permanent. and sanskrit recital is one of them. so you cannot change it. you either ignore it or tolerate it. but it certainly cannot changed.

the presence of orthodox bramins and sanskrit recitals create an atmosphere which makes devotees feel that they are in a holy & divine place like tirupathi & kashi. if non bramins & tamil are imposed, it would defeat the very purpose of building a temple- to give devotees who cannot go to temples at far off places to come & worship in an environment which provides conditions similar to those holy & divine temples at far off places.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - a separate state for tamils was formed only in 1953 and that too by a north indian nehru, because a telugu called potti sriramulu fasted to death for a separate state for telugus. even this state was named tamilnadu only in 1967, whereas, sanskrit has been in temples for centuries! will the karunanidhi have the courage to oppose the national anthem because it is not in tamil????