Opinion of Tabra Boys and Girls on Marriage:

[sravna]

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MEN and WOMEN, though they both belong to the same species of homo sapiens, are often viewed, by many people (both men and women!) as if they are quite very different from each other. John Gray, in his book titled "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus", puts forth, with illustrations and persuasive arguments that in many respects men and women act and behave as if they are from different planets, justifying the choice of his book's title. Allan Pease & Barbara Pease, also point out in their book titled "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps", spectacular differences between men and women, starting from how their brains are wired, elaborating in detail how men and women, perceive, think, act, understand and react differently even in identical situations and circumstances.

So, what is the reality? It is a difficult question to answer. The reason, IMO, is there is no man who is purely a MAN; and there is no woman who is purely a WOMAN. Every man possesses some womanliness too; and every woman, some manliness in her as well!

Outward physical distinctions are the easiest to be seen and understood right at the time of birth; the internal biological differences make themselves known when the person comes of age. But the psychological differences are so subtle and tend to wax and wane with time, place and experience, fluctuate and even mutate, that no expert can predict with even a reasonable certainty how exactly a certain man or a certain woman will behave in a particular situation. When such is the case, to dub all men together as a class or all women together as a class, and pass blanket judgments on them seems to me to be only chimerical exercises of idle minds. I intend no offence here to those who do so, but I only wish to point out to them that they are only wasting time.

Dear Shri CLN,

I was only saying a fact when I said that men and women show better extreme and better average spirituality respectively. I attributed this to different spiritual significance of men and women.

But did I say anything wrong? Generalizations anyway, I think, do not have to be just imaginary exercises , do they? It is a useful way of predicting what we want to know about something when you know little about it. We need to and keep making a number of generalizations consciously or sub-consciously all the time, otherwise our decision making comes to a standstill.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri CLN,

May I differ a little? It is true that what a particular person - male or female - will do in a particular situation can be predicted with good amount of accuracy, if one has experience of that person's past behaviour. But the topic here is not that. Generally women - from young girls to old women - have been sort of second class citizens under our Hindu Sastras. Just one telling example is that our Acharyas of Sankara mathams do not give "teertham" to widows growing hair. Long ago, once when the Sringeri Acarya came to TVPM, lot of such widows, in their usual religious fervour, used to throng his pooja and go in front of him for teertham. After one or two days there was announcement and notice that according to the rules of the matham, the Acarya has to take a purificatory bath, some rites to be performed and had to go without food for the entire day, if he happened to see a widow with hair, face to face. From the next day onwards, such people stopped going. Please note that our sastras do not impose any condition on a widower. But the rules for sanyasis of the Sankara mutts, I understand, also carry injunctions against travelling in any vehicle other than a palanquin. This rule is broken at will.

From such a second grade existence women's equality is slowly coming. (Though many women, and their menfolk too, as Ganeshrev says, are still struggling to make both ends meet.) Even girls and women from the poorest families do spend some money on "make-up", and if that is 'glamour', then it is welcome, I feel.

I do not agree with the interpretations given by Shri Sravna. There is no question of "seductive female" "temptress", "subduing the female force and the male gaining a permanent upper hand", etc. It is also a very laughable proposition "that there are more men at the extremes of spirituality who are fit enough to merge with brahman".

Man and woman have been envisaged by nature to work in close coordination (pun, if any, intended) and keep the species continuing. Hence seductin, temptation, etc., are all very much envisaged by nature. Their roles, their attitudes, their likes and dislikes, may all be different, but the key to happy and successful life is to make the best use of all such diversities to make a unified approach in life.

Dear Shri Sangom,

You have the right to your opinion and to decide what is laughable or not. But it is necessary to show why you consider your opinion a serious one and the other not. Thus I expect and hope others too, would want to see arguments and not just statements.

 

[CLN]

sravna: But did I say anything wrong? Generalizations anyway, I think, do not have to be just imaginary exercises , do they? It is a useful way of predicting what we want to know about something when you know little about it. We need to and keep making a number of generalizations consciously or sub-consciously all the time, otherwise our decision making comes to a standstill.

Shri Sravna ji,

I concede that 'generalization' as a process is neither unknown nor objectionable at all situations. Very often, after making a large number of observations of events, incidents and situations, an investigator crystallizes a conclusion by making some generalization, applying inductive logic. But, he is certain to be aware that except perhaps in pure mathematics, inductive logic cannot lead to infallible conclusions, applicable to every case, without an exception. A certain percentage of precautionary tolerance is always allowed in such a case to take care of an unexpected outcome, contrary to the expected outcome based on the generalized conclusion. More so, in the matter of the ever-changing kaleidoscope of human thoughts and emotions, whose contributing factors are much too numerous and not readily and easily available or amenable for any controlled study, to justify any kind of generalization.

Hence my warning against blanket judgments based on simplistic generalizations!

 

[sravna]

Shri Sravna ji,

I concede that 'generalization' as a process is neither unknown nor objectionable at all situations. Very often, after making a large number of observations of events, incidents and situations, an investigator crystallizes a conclusion by making some generalization, applying inductive logic. But, he is certain to be aware that except perhaps in pure mathematics, inductive logic cannot lead to infallible conclusions, applicable to every case, without an exception. A certain percentage of precautionary tolerance is always allowed in such a case to take care of an unexpected outcome, contrary to the expected outcome based on the generalized conclusion. More so, in the matter of the ever-changing kaleidoscope of human thoughts and emotions, whose contributing factors are much too numerous and not readily and easily available or amenable for any controlled study, to justify any kind of generalization.

Hence my warning against blanket judgments based on simplistic generalizations!

Shri CLN Ji,

What you refer to as a generalization is an observation. It is a fact and not an opinion. And what I did was an interpretation of it. I don't understand why you call it a blanket judgement?

 

[CLN]

sravna: What you refer to as a generalization is an observation. It is a fact and not an opinion. And what I did was an interpretation of it. I don't understand why you call it a blanket judgement?

Shri Sravna ji,

To my limited understanding, an 'observation' of one or any number of instances has only the status of statement of a fact (which, by the way, need not even be always a fact; it could be even an illusion which looks like fact, for example, a mirage!); but, when some one attributes the observation to a general class like "MEN" or "WOMEN", it is no more a mere observation, IMO, but takes on the form of a generalization.

Let me make it clearer: Suppose I 'observe' 1 or 10 or 100 or even 1000 women and I find them beautiful. As long as I say that I find some or even many women beautiful, I am okay. But the moment I start assuming, on the strength of my observation of 1 or 10 or 100 or even 1000 women, that WOMEN are beautiful, I am generalising, am I not? The word 'WOMEN' refers about 50 % of the entire world population. Having definitely not examined each and every specimen (in this case each and every woman in the world), my declaration cannot be just an observation, but can only be a generalisation, whose probability for being true cannot be easily ascertained, except that, the more the samples examined, the greater is the chance for the conclusion being nearer the truth.

Of course, all statistical studies like exit polls pertaining to an election, or, which is the most read newspaper, or the most used soap / toothpaste etc., the most popular actor etc., or, the average life expectancy of an Indian citizen and the like are all nothing but generalizations, based on certain specialized random sampling techniques, developed over the years by several trials in the past and purported to predict results to a high degree of accuracy, but, all the same, NEVER to 100 % exactness!

 

[kunjuppu]

You have great things going on there. Generally in the west, they have a different attitude to life, practically achieving, contributing and participating. Here our women want to have the best of all the world!

iyya,

this is how i view this statement.

broadly generalizing, with all its flaws, i agree with you, that in the west, the concept of equality of the genders is now well entrenched in the society. i hear very rarely these days, to females being addressed as the weaker gender. they do all types of jobs here in toronto - bus drivers, fork lift operators, luggage attendants and right upto heads of universities and all the professions inbetween.

maternity/paternity leave with certain threshold payment from the government now lasts one year, and so in enlightened familites, tis 12 months is split between the husband and the wife

the situation, i think, is a wee bit different in tamil nadu.

from what i know, i would say in 75% of tambram households, still, the girl is brought up to be subservient to the boy and the inlaws. there is difference in the levels, but the attitude is still the same - the boy is superior to the girl, and their rule prevails.

i have also found that the lower in the economic scale, the more rigid this attitude - from both sides which is unfortunate, because it is here that we need more liberation as these lower income group can ill afford the conveniences of life and hence have to put up with in laws, children, job and an indifferent husband at the most.

if there is a joint family, there is no incentive for the husband to pitch in, lest he be thought of as being pussy whipped.. it is still a rare mil who will understand the special needs of a working dil and adjust accordingly. rarel still, to find a mil in such circumstances, who will just let her dil 'be'.

add to it, if the girl's side need financial help, very seldom is this permitted, and if at all done, it is done grudgingly, and a constant source of irritation and taunt.

so, iyya, in all the above context, i would desist from a generalized remark about the tambram woman of india 'want to have the best of all the world'. sad to say, this is still a pipe dream for most of them

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

In my opinion,Smt.Ganeshrevathi has explained the condition of tabra ladies very correctly.In my long years of experience I found that it is very difficult to fathom the inner feelings of a lady.If they are fully satisfied and confident then only they come out with their inner feelings.You can read the mind
of men easily but not that of ladies.This is only a general statement.There will always be exceptions.Somehow in lower middle class tabra houses,we follow false ego and false prestige to a large extent.I remember one incident which took place in 1960 or so.My friend was working in AG's office and his wife was working in Municipal corporation,Nagpur.Her father was in a senior post in the same corporation.
My friend's parents were also staying with their son.My friend and his wife were leading a happy married life.Because of wife's earnings my friends financial position improved substantially and they thought of purchasing a second house.Now the problem started.My friend wanted that
the second house should be purchased in his name as otherwise his parents may misunderstand him.Whenever the girl visited her mother's place,mother used to advice her to purchase the house only in her name as she was purchasing from her salary savings.Poor innocent girl was confused.One day she entered the bathroom in her house and poured kerosene and set fire to herself.She could not be saved .She left behind
infant of less than a year.The peace of both the families got disturbed for a few years.
In my opinion,ladies in the role of mother knows only to extend love and affection to children and many times,they are not able to take a correct decision as in the case above.
I think the situation has improved considerably and present day girls both in villages ,towns and cities enjoy more freedom.

 

[Nara]

.....In my long years of experince I found that it is very difficult to fathom the inner feelings of a lady.

Dear BK sir, I appreciate the sentiments you have expressed, and I would like to express my views, which are parallel to yours, and also somewhat tangential, please bear with me.

The physical and emotional differences between the sexes are quite obvious, as Shri CLN has ably presented. No doubt these differences endow each sex with certain strengths and weaknesses. However, these differences, IMO, do not mean the two sexes have different levels of tolerance to be mistreated. When mistreated, both will suffer in equal measure.

A little empathetic role-playing may bring home the point I am trying to make.

I just can't imagine how I would have felt if, after getting married, I was to be the one taking up residence in a strange house as my own, with all kinds of expectations, but no privileges that are of any practical value. I just can't imagine how I would feel if my father and mother must stand up and attend to my wife's needs when we visit "my" house -- house of birth. I just can't imagine how I would feel if my parents must treat my daughter-in-law with the same respect that they would have to show my in-laws. All this is true in the reverse today. My mother-in-law can't get herself to call her son's son-in-law in any form but respectful plural. This may have worked in an earlier era, but what good is this tradition in this day and age?

Women face uphill battle in all walks of life, all over the world, the supposedly emancipated west not exempted. The recent study done by Obama WH found women earning 75% of what men earn, at all educational levels, and more women in poverty than men, and women of color facing the brunt much more. But, at least in the social arena, women of the west do enjoy a certain level of practical respect, a respect that recognizes her right to do as she pleases. This is what I call true respect. In our traditional Indian culture, the best treated women are like prized birds in a cage, to be shown off with pride in front of friends and relatives. The norm is to treat them as cow for breeding and oxen for work. The worst treatment is of course unspeakable, some women prefer the flames of kerosene instead.

The Tamil culture from the Sangam period, has seen women with a level of suspicion and fear. They invested in her a strange power called aNangu, which they felt had to be kept in control lest it plays havoc. Further, the concept of kaRpu was ingrained in her psyche so much so, men didn't have to put them in emotional prisons, they did it themselves. An ideal woman, they were told, and still being told, must exude accham, naaNam, madam, pauiRppu, all of which puts her in a perpetual state of subordination to the man.

This is the tradition we are told we must preserve, because it comes down to us from our wise forefathers. I wonder what this tradition would be like if it was transmitted by our fore-mothers and not fore-fathers. Perhaps such a tradition would claim that it is the duty of a wife to be a spiritual guru of the husband and therefore, a boy must always marry a older girl.

Physical and emotional differences do not change the innate dignity of any person, man or woman. Being good or bad, being honest or hypocritical, being superstitious or rational, these are not dependent on one's physical nature to get pregnant. No man or woman is prone to the extremes, or moderation, of the so called spirituality, aka superstitions and delusions, due to the gender. These wide-spread afflictions are gender agnostic.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Shri Sravna ji,

To my limited understanding, an 'observation' of one or any number of instances has only the status of statement of a fact (which, by the way, need not even be always a fact; it could be even an illusion which looks like fact, for example, a mirage!); but, when some one attributes the observation to a general class like "MEN" or "WOMEN", it is no more a mere observation, IMO, but takes on the form of a generalization.

Let me make it clearer: Suppose I 'observe' 1 or 10 or 100 or even 1000 women and I find them beautiful. As long as I say that I find some or even many women beautiful, I am okay. But the moment I start assuming, on the strength of my observation of 1 or 10 or 100 or even 1000 women, that WOMEN are beautiful, I am generalising, am I not? The word 'WOMEN' refers about 50 % of the entire world population. Having definitely not examined each and every specimen (in this case each and every woman in the world), my declaration cannot be just an observation, but can only be a generalisation, whose probability for being true cannot be easily ascertained, except that, the more the samples examined, the greater is the chance for the conclusion being nearer the truth.

Of course, all statistical studies like exit polls pertaining to an election, or, which is the most read newspaper, or the most used soap / toothpaste etc., the most popular actor etc., or, the average life expectancy of an Indian citizen and the like are all nothing but generalizations, based on certain specialized random sampling techniques, developed over the years by several trials in the past and purported to predict results to a high degree of accuracy, but, all the same, NEVER to 100 % exactness!

Dear Shri CLN,

You seem to be getting confused. What I called as observations and hence as facts were about men and women. The fact was on men and women as a whole. I just offered an explanation for those observations on those two groups. The explanation can only pertain to the whole group as the observation is on the whole group. I am aware of the pitfalls of forming an opinion on a specific case based on generalization. But for that, can you say that generalizing is outright bad and should be avoided?

 

[CLN]

sravna: can you say that generalizing is outright bad and should be avoided?

Shri Sravna ji,

I have already answered this question in the last para of my post #55 and so there is no need for more elaboration. Further, by arguing out back and forth on your definitions of 'observations' and generalizations' we are digressing from the very theme of this thread where the concern brought out is the status of TaBra Women in the society and we both should stick to it.
.

 

[sravna]

Shri Sravna ji,

I have already answered this question in the last para of my post #55 and so there is no need for more elaboration. Further, by arguing out back and forth on your definitions of 'observations' and generalizations' we are digressing from the very theme of this thread where the concern brought out is the status of TaBra Women in the society and we both should stick to it.
.

Dear Shri CLN,

The reason I reiterated that is because you seem to be raising the same concern about generalization after your acknowledgement of its usefulness. As you say the same points are being made and its time to shift the focus.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Tambra Girls

Generalisation affects all; but can you individually accuse? That will be indecent,too. Smt Revaty perhaps has done the same thing. I did not accuse her. Does she not sound reactionary? The tabra girls, women and ladies, have left the community in the lurch from which they all sprang. How much the retired fathers or a few mothers,too, sacrificed for bringing up a family of at least 5 or 6 girls? Would you compare your sacrifice to that. They never made any propaganda of their silent sacrifice. Now you are educated and make your own earnings on that. Good. What is your contribution to the community, not monetarily, but morally and materially? Many found it convenient to desert it. “Now it is my life and I alone can decide my future what if it is outside the community” they say,not one, umpteen of them. You know how many boys are there in marriageable (and beyond, too) age. A few writers (you might have read them) have said in their parts of the world the girls marry taxi drivers and the like. The idea of dignity of labour has sunk in them. Would you do here? Do you appreciate it in the heart of your hearts? I have heard a story that our community girl, a double graduate, fell in love with her builling’s poorly educated watchman and married him. Was it love, or anything else? A comedy of heavenly error or a quirk of mind! That is one in a million. Cannot the girls marry a equally qualified and earning boy. What if the boy is working in a different sector? Outside her city? Now you want the boy to be enclosed in your household! When you accept modern life our ladies have not changed a bit. They are sure they will lose all their liberties if they go out. Independence means you take all responsibilities yourself. When parents bring a proposal the final interview is done by the girl saying “I am going to be married to you, not my parents”. I tell you they will not be useful to any community if they maintain that stance. My god, what will happen to them if things turn adverse. Maybe their parents might not be alive to receive them back and embrace. It is the family culture all over the world that has brought the society this far. I don’t say you marry anybody your parents propose, but see everybody is happy with your choice. These form the majority of girls and women of today. So, there is no contribution.
Participating: Instead drawing a long bow, I would point out the first replies to the post. They are not forthcoming to debate fearing the elders would fool them. You cannot deny these attitudes of our girls. There are ladies who agree with our points outwardly only perhaps because they have only sons to be married. Is not Dharma is one for boy and girl. The boys’ sides of past decades did make mistakes. Should the girls generation repeat that, tit-for-tat fashion. Whose turn it will be next? No idea.
Achieving: The test will come in the next decade or so to ascertain the achievements. What they have done so far has been on the strength of the family culture, except scoring adademically or anything thereupon.
As for equality of man and woman, have they achieved what they wanted. Please exclude village people. I would say yes but would also add they have overshot. Like it is enough for man to be eligible to earn and marry, is it not enough for the woman also? Why you spend so much on cosmetics, appearances and compelled to flaunt wealth? If both of you are happily married, what is the necessity. Why spend on unnecessary things and wear them too? To be more attractive? Become a security risk? Why? You don’t trust your husband? At least 50% of business’ wealth has been inflated by girls and ladies and it is apt to say they are creating a false economy. No doubt in the process a good number of ordinary hands also get employment and income. That is a false satisfaction; of course better than starving. Okay, what did you get in return. A use and throw item which will make a heap of scraps degradable or non-degradable. A collegian girl may spend or splurge on her dresses or makeup items. Why a married woman should do that. I am not talking of Smt Revaty who is perhaps rooted in the tradion and a few more animals are there in the society to be proud of. She is not the majority. I will still be branded a MCP! Please prepare the stye for one less as I am not. It is in my nature to accept the other sex as equal. I have thousand things to prove that in my household. I am born in a family of so many sisters and through them I saw the world of ladies. You can scan my posts to find out whether I have really a mindset you are accusing me of. Thank god I can have a balanced view of things and I am my master. Smt Revaty, nothing is said to hurt you or others but to speak of the state of our community. The problem is not as worse in other non-Tambra communities as it is here. Lastly, I would have felt very low and hurt had you not responded. Thank you for affording me an opportunity

 

[pviyer]

In my opinion let us leave aside this discussion on how men and women should behave. We all have hundreds and thousands of opinions about this topic, which may or may not change.

Let us focus on why things are happening the way they happen and address the cause and find out how to resolve it.

In my understanding intermarriages are happening largely because

1. Our society has not been able to give sufficient determination in our children to exercise self control. The key word here is discipline. This started right from the time of allowing children to be watching worthless movies instead of studying or playing or attending social/religious activities. Erratic way of studying and indiscipline. Study until 2 at midnight wake up at 8 in the morning. All this is signs of indiscipline. Why not eat at 6 , sleep at 9 or 10 and wake up at 3 or 4? All this little bit of indiscipline we inculcate takes a vishwaroopam when children grow up.

2. Affectionately and with insistence and patience , teach the children how to pray, do puja, be self less, sharing etc. The key word here is satvic qualities have to be promoted among children. If you cant do it, send the child to a gurukulam. But that is important! You want children to pretend as brahmins, they cant pretend, you have to make them as brahmins then they will be one regardless of whether or not they intermarry. I am not here using smrithi purana definition of brahmins, we have all come far away from that, but simple definitions like interested in worshiping gods, discipline , selflessness, eagerness towards traditions etc. It may not work in 100% of the cases, all children will not obey but many more will certainly fall in the line. It is not too late sirs, we still have a substantial community where we can promote these qualities.

Let us do these two things ,other things will take care by themselves. Even it there is intermarriage, so be it, it will happen for the right reasons not for the wrong reasons as now. Girls want to make up so they can do so gracefully, it is part of their nature to be interested in dressing up and let us not put that into a contentious discussion

 

[CLN]

Iyyarooraan: Generalisation affects all; but can you individually accuse? That will be indecent,too. Smt Revaty perhaps has done the same thing. I did not accuse her. Does she not sound reactionary?

Judging from the length and nature of the outpourings of Shri Iyyarooraan, I can see how much her response in post #32 has disturbed him. I leave it to her to respond as she thinks approprite, except to point out just one thing. Shri Iyyarooraan has pointed out the answer himself, that too, in the very opening sentence itself: "Generalisation affects all"! It was his generalized statement "Here our women want to have the best of all the world" in #28 which has triggered many of the posts that have ensued. Again he said in post #31 "They cannot say ‘no’ to glamour, ..." To be fair to him, generalization has such a fascination that any of us may fall into the trap of using it, even unconsciously (perhaps, some one may point out that even this very sentence of mine is generalization - sort of! ), unless we are very very careful to avoid it! The irony is, while countering Shri Iyyarooraan's comment, Smt. Revathy herself fell for the same temptation (to some extent) and said in her post #32, "your mindset and men in general...". A very redeeming factor is that Shri KRS ji has very promptly pointed out to her, in the very next post #33, "Please do not write off an entire gender, because of one person's take"! Shri Sangom ji also pointed out in his post #35, "I also request that you don't form an opinion about "all males" on the basis of the opinion of one or two people here." and in post #36 I also said, "I am sure that any unprejudiced person can now see that generalisations of any sort about men or women are only warped opinions, because, even within the general frame, individuals evolve only individually."

All this I have pointed out only to illustrate how blind generalizations, serve only to bring out into the open the prejudices lurking in our subconscious mind and side track us from our main purpose, and to that extent, delay our reaching any valid and meaningful solutions!

 

[Maniya]

girls are getting more qualified than boys. They earn more than boys. But still want the boys to earn more than them when it comes to marriage. IT has destroyed it all, paying astronomical wages and salaries.

More number of boys to less number of girls. Everybody is becoming choosy, both boys and girls. Nothing wrong with that. But ...

Girls are ready to wait for an eternity to get married to the best partner they have in mind. Security (read requiring company) and abililty to bear child don't affect the girls.

Parents are also not getting worked up if their daughters are not getting married. Some of them prefer to have them unmarried so that they would be of financial support to them. But the same parents worry a lot if their sons don't get alliances.

Nobody can be blamed for this situation. Survival of the fittest. Time has come for us to give up brahminism and accept ICMs or at least Inter zone brahmin marriages. The north south divide has to be bridged. Who will bite the bullet. It is most difficult to be living a Tam brahmin today without compromising. When you compromise, you can live happily. But when you cannot compromise and want to live in the comforts of past memories, your are doomed; there is no place for the exclusive brahmin anymore.

The result: More and more late marriages and more and more bachelors and spinsters will go to the grave without marriage. TAmbrams as a breed will reduce drastically if not go extinct.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

When "survival of the fittest" philosophy was working the necessity for the civilization came and the Brahmanism and other things followed. We are catching up with the same from behind. In any philosophy, right is only right; wrong is wrong. We can say good bye to "Mata, Pita, Guru..... and live like animals without inhibitions! Record your ideas, the future may perchance read you and wonder how the piston of ideas went back and forth. Or there were reformists,too! The community of 3-legged creatures (us) will and should only try to sustain and/or improve things for the future adherents. The future will take its course with or without us.

 

[Nara]

.... Smt. Revathy herself fell for the same temptation (to some extent) and said in her post #32, "your mindset and men in general...".

Dear CLN sir, I am in general in agreement with your points, but would like to offer a different angle for your consideration.

I feel not all generalizations are the same. Some are useful for navigating social interactions with others, but others may be pernicious. For example, elderly women in kaccham are in general traditional. So, when a need arises to interact with a particular elderly woman in kaccham, we can avoid talking about certain things that may be uncomfortable to her. This, to me seems a benign generalization.

Let us take another case now. As a professor I come across lots of students of color and many do poorly because of various reasons. Now, I think it would be pernicious on my part if I generalize and assume all students of color are academically poor.

So, my point is, generalization can be helpful or can be obnoxious. In the case of the generalization by ganeshrev that men in general have a particular mindset about women is probably a useful assumption to avoid conflict unless contrary evidence emerges. This may be viewed as a useful kind of generalization.

On the other hand, the generalization of Shri Iyyarooraan, "Here our women want to have the best of all the world!" seems more sweeping and also off mark, no useful purpose is served by holding such an a priori view about "our women", on the contrary, it can only further entrench prejudice.

Further, to me, the phrase "men in general" means the following: if we have to make an a priori assumption about men, this is what it is, and with contrary evidence this view can be changed in particular cases. To me, this phrase does not sound as a blanket indictment against all men.

All this I have pointed out only to illustrate how blind generalizations, serve only to bring out into the open the prejudices lurking in our subconscious mind and side track us from our main purpose, and to that extent, delay our reaching any valid and meaningful solutions!

Yes sir, quite right, we all have very many demons lurking deep inside, it is up to us to delve deep and exorcise them. But, the usual reaction is only offering up excuses like, others are also doing it, or some such thing.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

When "survival of the fittest" philosophy was working the necessity for the civilization came and the Brahmanism and other things followed. We are catching up with the same from behind. In any philosophy, right is only right; wrong is wrong. We can say good bye to "Mata, Pita, Guru..... and live like animals without inhibitions! Record your ideas, the future may perchance read you and wonder how the piston of ideas went back and forth. Or there were reformists,too! The community of 3-legged creatures (us) will and should only try to sustain and/or improve things for the future adherents. The future will take its course with or without us.

Very wise words

 

[CLN]

Nara: I feel not all generalizations are the same.

I quite agree with you, Sir! In fact, it is only because I also felt that the generalisation attempted by ganeshrev is not in the same class as what Shri Iyyarooraan did, I added a qualifier to my comment through "to some extent", when I pointed out her generalization. As I have mentioned in my post #64, "generalization has such a fascination that any of us may fall into the trap of using it, even unconsciously". The problem is NOT in using a generalization but in expecting others to comprehend it in the same sense in which the user has used it. When there is a difference, which is easily possible, because perceptions differ from person to person, all sorts of arguments and counter-arguments arise. For example, I may just make in passing a general statement like "All TaBras are intelligent people", based on my observation of many TaBras, some may nod their heads in approval, but some others who have probably come across some TaBra duffers may take exception to my statement and ask "How come you are so sure about what you say?"! That is the inherent problem in the use of generalizations, I believe.

 

[Nara]

When "survival of the fittest" philosophy was working the necessity.....

I would like to comment on the above phrase, "survival of the fittest". I know this is off-topic, but I feel there is a huge misunderstanding about the meaning of this phrase which needs to be clarified.

First, it was not Darwin who coined this phrase, he just used it as a clever phrase for the somewhat awkward "random-mutation and natural selection". For Darwin, the phrase survival of the fittest did not mean the stronger survives. What is meant is if any physical feature caused by random gene mutation bestows a survival and reproductive advantage in the natural environment in which the creature lives, such gene mutations will survive and multiply, and if the population achieves a threshold level of preponderance of this gene mutation, it will quickly spread through the entire population and become standard fare. This could mean physical strength, aggression, or, it could mean docility, nimbleness, and ability to run away from danger, etc.

Thanks....

 

[nachi naga]

as population figures display,chinese and indians are reproducing rather enjoyingly.in western countries population has dwindled and in southern hemisphere like australia,the population has dwindled.people make love with contraceptives and enjoy life,without encountering the effects of copulation,namely babies!i guess tabra's are miniscule minority even in india,let alone globally.but those who are surviving,are doing their bit to follow tadition and rituals,as usual.

 

[Nara]

"How come you are so sure about what you say?"! That is the inherent problem in the use of generalizations, I believe.

Yes CLN sir, I quite agree, careful generalization as an opening gambit may be of some value as long as one is open to fine tune with new data; but to cling to it dogmatically is problematic.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

When "survival of the fittest" philosophy was working the necessity for the civilization came and the Brahmanism and other things followed. We are catching up with the same from behind. In any philosophy, right is only right; wrong is wrong. We can say good bye to "Mata, Pita, Guru..... and live like animals without inhibitions! Record your ideas, the future may perchance read you and wonder how the piston of ideas went back and forth. Or there were reformists,too! The community of 3-legged creatures (us) will and should only try to sustain and/or improve things for the future adherents. The future will take its course with or without us.

iyya,

inspite of poor execution, the world has been steadily moving towards ideals and idealisms. starting to what i believe, from the french revolution.

the state, which once was a ruler, is today a parent and care taker. one may mock at the goodies coming out for this tamil nadu elections, but is this not a manifest of a parent taking care of the children?

this concept has also seeped into our community, albeit with varying results. sometimes out of choice, and sometimes forced. out of choice example would be the decision of the generation starting from the 60s to give equal opportunities re education and career to our daughters.

at that time, we were still in a mental warp re womenfolk - inspite of all the education, the girl, on marriage meekly handed the paycheque to the mother in law. no more, from what i understand. so this aspect, of the empowerment of the woman towards her own paycheck, has been a result of the thinking of today - and may not be quite welcome among certain boys' families.

we are moving towards thinking our spouse as an extension of ourselves, if not out of sympathy, just because of the earning power of the wife. paycheck is a powerful tool, and how many of us, living in the cities can afford to live with a single paycheck.

it is in this context, i am waiting for the clock to turn further. the day when our girls are willing to arranged marriage of guys, lesser qualified, lesser earnings and overall lesser endowed than themselves. only then i would say, that our females have become truly liberated.

jai woman!!

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI kunjuppu.

we are moving towards thinking our spouse as an extension of ourselves, if not out of sympathy, just because of the earning power of the wife. paycheck is a powerful tool, and how many of us, living in the cities can afford to live with a single paycheck.

it is in this context, i am waiting for the clock to turn further. the day when our girls are willing to arranged marriage of guys, lesser qualified, lesser earnings and overall lesser endowed than themselves. only then i would say, that our females have become truly liberated.

Do you really think the 'earning power' of a woman would let her settle in life with a husband with lesser qualification or earning? If the profiles in a matrimony website like the SaiSankara (Chennai Sai Sankara matrimonials) are any indication, girls demand their would-be's to be the otherwise, in some cases with the earning levels twice or even thrice their own! These days one can be reasonably certain that our boys (at least those in the IT sector) have learnt rudimentary cooking, which can't be said with such certainty with girls!

The only exceptions are the profiles of some traditional girls, who are accomplished in karnATik music or bharatanATyam. Such girls seek their varans who would either match or be capable of appreciating their traditional accomplishments, with no regard to the varans' earning power or qualifications.

Thus, the dharma-chakra has to rotate to the traditional level for todays' women to change.

 

[C RAVI]

In line with the subject matter of this thread, I would just like to say IMHO that, today's boys and girls are not confident to step into marriage. Folks are confused to determine whats is right and whats not in terms of selecting life partner.

Two smart brains living together seems to be problematic, Two professionally inclined people living together seems to be disputing with the family life/household chores, Two lower income people seem to be scared to cope up with present standards of life. Ego and the sense of priority seems to be clashing with harmonious life of the two.

No doubt, as why divorce cases are piling up and why marriageable guys and gals are keep pondering about many aspects and hesitant to take quick independent decisions, though are overdue for marriage.

Unless there is a reasonable sense of importance to spouse, sensitiveness to the spouse's sensitivity, and no sense of negative fixed ideas in general about male and females, a healthy personality can not be expected to manifest within oneself. Unless one have good maturity, belief in healthy family set up, priority for overall family betterment and a sense of living for each other/valuing each other and cooperating with each other, a successful marriage life, considering each other as good friends, would be bleak.