off to the usa we go to study..more and more

[kunjuppu]

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/world/asia/squeezed-out-in-india-students-turn-to-united-states.html?_r=1&hp

without comments...

 

[Yamaka]

Here is my two-cents on this issue:

1. India must expand the IITs and IIMs in ALL States.. and start many more top notch Universities commensurate with the population size. Education is the sure way to family/national progress; hence, this basic high quality education must be the Number One priority of the State policy.

2. I welcome high caliber Indian students venturing into US colleges and universities, with a caveat... only when the student can get full scholarship (tuition & lodging/boarding)... definitely not worth it, if the student gets loan from parents or from the banks.

3. American institutions when they recruit foreign students must inform them fully of the job prospects sincerely... many bogus institutions commit FRAUD in recruiting foreign students... this is a terrible malpractice and must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Indian students should realize that, as in India, finding jobs with a liberal arts degree, including law, is very very difficult in the US now...even graduates with Science, Engineering & Technology find it harder here since 2008.

4. If top notch students leave India, is this not a Brain Drain? Yes...then I will ask Indians, what's the alternative?

5. Here is a REAL story of two Indian students who came to US to pursue liberal arts degree from TN:

About 15 years ago, an IIT Chennai professor thought that his two daughters will be better off going to college in the US...because daughters were not keen on hard subjects like math, chemistry, physics etc. He sent them to private schools in T.Nager, TN and prepared them well for SAT and other standardized exams etc.

Elder daughter got into a top notch private liberal arts college in the US... on NEED BASED financial assessment the daughter got full tuition waiver and about $5000 more for living expenses. She needed to work in the summer to pay for the rest of the bill... everything looked very good. She graduated with honors in Philosophy.

She pursued further for a PhD in Philosophy/ Meta-Ethics in another top University... Alas... she doesn't want to finish the PhD asking, what am I going to do with this degree when I know there is no job for me?

About 3 years later, the younger daughter did the same thing...graduating in Linguistics...

Now the father thinks that everything is a real waste of time, money and DREAMS!

I don't want people to do the same mistake.....

What say you?



ps. What happened to that controversial Thread "Muslims in India"? I don't find it in the General Section!!!

 

[biswa]

Apparently the recent "Occupy Wall Street" movement is because of a lot of liberal arts college graduates in the US are not finding jobs after graduation. Not a big surprise.

Welcome to globalization. If a graduate in Gurgaon can do your white collar job for 1/5th the salary, they will.

 

[Govinda]

She graduated with honors in Philosophy.

She pursued further for a PhD in Philosophy/ Meta-Ethics in another top University...

Now the father thinks that everything is a real waste of time, money and DREAMS!

I don't want people to do the same mistake.....

What say you?



ps. What happened to that controversial Thread "Muslims in India"? I don't find it in the General Section!!!

I agree with you 100% Seems like you are very logical, realistic in money matters! Only affluent parents should send their kids to foreign lands for education. For others, they should be educated back there, and come here for jobs or assignments.

In that above case of the Philosophy student, Indians are so clueless about our Indian Philosophical Systems.

Regd. that Muslims topic, it is moved to chit chat, just because of ur allegations , just kidding!

 

[Nara]

.....Now the father thinks that everything is a real waste of time, money and DREAMS!

When I graduated from Engineering college, I was not a very good engineer but a decent mugger. By way of literacy that can enhance quality of intellectual life I and was a complete ignoramus.

From what I have seen of the youngsters today in the circle of my family and friends, and the youngsters we see here in this site, I have a feeling the situation is not all that different even now. In India it is all about money -- education is a conduit to a good job, otherwise it is just waste of time and money.

In the U.S. education is viewed differently. In the most part, the purpose of college education is making a thinking youngster, to be able to examine his/her life. At least a third of the curriculum of all the majors, from Engineering to Arts History, is dedicated to what is called General Education that includes a range of subjects from Mathematics, Statistics, Lab science, Psychology, Sociology, Music, Art, History, etc.

Besides, career opportunity even for English majors is not limited to marriage. The current economic downturn has affected the job opportunity for everybody, but under normal conditions finding a job for a middle-class life is not difficult.

Just a perspective ....

 

[sarang]

Now I understand why american and UK universities are occupied, supported and funded by indian and chinese students.

In the U.S. education is viewed differently. In the most part, the purpose of college education is making a thinking youngster, to be able to examine his/her life. ....

 

[Yamaka]

Now I understand why american and UK universities are occupied, supported and funded by indian and chinese students.

Indian and Chinese students go to Australia, Canada, US and UK because they believe that the education they would get in their countries WILL not satisfy their NEED to enhance their intellect and skills...

However, the % of such students is very low to the total to warrant writings like "are occupied, supported and funded by Indian and Chinese students"...

Out of proportion here!

 

[Yamaka]

"Besides, career opportunity even for English majors is not limited to marriage. The current economic downturn has affected the job opportunity for everybody, but under normal conditions finding a job for a middle-class life is not difficult." - Nara post 5

Dear N:

I really hope you are correct... even for an optimist like myself, I am afraid, our youngsters are going to face very stiff head winds in the coming years, for we are going for massive structural changes that will lead to persistent high unemployment for a long long time....

Wait & watch.

 

[sarang]

[h=2]
Figures for year 2010 in US universities
International Students: Top 20 Countries of Origin[/h]

1. China 690,923
2. India 127,628
3. South Korea 72,153
4. Canada 28,145
5. Taiwan 26,685
6. Japan 24,842
7. Saudi Arabia 15,810
8. Mexico 13,450
9. Vietnam 13,112
10. Turkey 12,397
11. Nepal 11,233
12. Germany 9,548
13. United Kingdom 8,861
14. Brazil 8,786
15. Thailand 8,531
16. Hong Kong 8,034
17. France 7,716
18. Indonesia 6,943
19. Colombia 6,920
20. Nigeria 6,568

Read more: International Students: Who Is Attending American Universities - CBS MoneyWatch.com


International Students: Who Is Attending American Universities - CBS MoneyWatch.com

 

[Nara]

Figures for year 2010 in US universities
International Students: Top 20 Countries of Origin

This list totals to 1,108,285 international students. The total enrollment in degree granting colleges and universities in the U.S. for the year 2009 was 20,428,000. That is 5.4% for the entire list.
If you take just the Chinese and Indians it is 4%.

Further, most Indian and Chinese students are graduate students for most of whom tuition is waived and are given Graduate Assistantship grants. So, while these students are enrolled in college it is the universities that fund them, which is a good thing all around, for the funders and the fundees.

 

[prasad1]

The new students coming from India are different than the one's who came 30 years ago.
The present students are coming for undergrads. Their parents are rich and these students even fly back 2 times in the year.
I recently went for a new student from India reception, and saw and heard from the young one's. It was a revelation, as I did not have the first hand experience of meeting the very rich young people from India.
The tuition was $50,000/year and hostel rent was $9600.00 + food and incidental.

 

[subbudu1]

I can narrate from my experience engineer who spent life and earned in India.

Facts please
- Few quality institutions and few quality Engineers. Most Engineers from reputed institutions in India cannot even fix a loose connection in their home, go haywire if a pumpset fails, cannot make sense of a problem in their mobile and so on. This is the quality of institutions
- IITians are the best product of the world so says some papers. Truth most IITians cannot get out of their text book approach solving problems. This lot is more interested in a job in some bank or some MBA. But except for a selected lot, rest of them are no good innovators.
- IITians and IIM encourage undergraduate students rather than their post graduate ones. In IIMs, at least at Joka, I am informed that a phd level student is treated is shown second rate treatment in comparison to the graduates.
- Students from India are more interested in money first , rank first approach rather than subject first approach. That is why we will not be having a steve jobs or a Bill Gates or an Edison from India. We will have lot of MBA grads flouting their indianish stylish english , and powerpoint presentations. No real innovation power.
- Its true that for many courses there is a high filtering. But if we have to give all the top 50 engineering institutions jobs in their stated professions. For example Mechanical eng. related jobs for all the mechanical engineers of top 50 institutes in the country, I would presume that there would be no sufficiently good jobs at all.

So to sum it up there is no option for these kids but to study and settle outside India unless they have the guts to be entrepreneurs, have the craving for their subject.

 

[Yamaka]

What's happening to the Economy, Jobs and GDP in the US?


I wrote earlier that job prospects for our youngsters are getting worse every year in the US..many of the foreign students may not realize this basic fact. This could lead to massive disillusion and loss of hope for them.

Some of us say "Oh, don't worry things will get "Normal" again soon".

Maybe, may not be.

Many predict that the New Normal will be 9% unemployment and 11% under-employment (about 20% of the total labor force (about 150 million - about 50% of the total population) in mental anguish.

What did we do wrong in the near past?

1. It's a fact that our economy has been expanding well since WW II. Between 1945 till 1980 we had peace in the world (except the Cold War) and prosperity in the "land of the free - US"... during this time two very important export economies - Germany and Japan- were built from the total ruin, and our tax structure was very progressive, the marginal tax rate reaching as high as 90% on the income, and the fiscal deficit was low and public debt was coming down from 90% of GDP to nearly 30% of GDP in 1980.

2. Then the Supply Siders came in the guise of Ronald Reagan, Bushes. They slashed the marginal tax rate to nearly 30%, spent enormously on Star War armaments and Wars...this took the public debt to nearly 100% and income inequality rose and rich were getting richer and poor were going poorer.

3. The same time Globalization started in about 1980.. Communist China embraced American style Capitalism... our multi-national corporations were attracted with no tax on Capital Gain and corporate tax was set much lower than the US...American low and mid level manufacturing was destroyed because of competition from Chinese, who were keeping their currency artificially very low, always creating a massive trade deficit in their favor..

This never happened when Germans and Japanese massively exported to the US, because they were competing on level playing field of similar labor cost..

Chinese have relatively very low labor and business cost because of no labor laws, and environmental degradation was ignored willfully.

I charge our policy makers for allowing Chinese to invade our manufacturing base and destroying it. This is the root cause of our current problem.

4. How to rebuild America?

China must be stopped: We must say that only managed balanced trade with China, who is a trade manipulator.

5. Our corporate tax laws must be structured in such a way that our MNCs create jobs in America, and not outside.

6. Our personal income tax must be made very progressive, and capital gains and dividends must be taxed at the same rate as income.

7. Our slogan should be "Jobs, Jobs and More Jobs"... not "999" or similar crap from the Republican Supply Siders!

More later...

 

[biswa]

Let's start learning Chinese.

Ni Hao!

 

[biswa]

Glib posts, aside, I think the Chinese need to be taken seriously. Not just by the US, but the rest of the world. They are quite possibly the next great super power. People in India are not afraid of the US, Russia or Pakistan. But they are afraid of China.

However the Yuan exchange rate imbalance cannot be sustained for too long. It is as if the Chinese have built a dam across a river without an outlet. The reason the rate is low is because China keeps buying dollars from the market and then they stash the dollars in US treasuries (because they have nowhere else to go). Then they go back and encourage US borrowing by selling them goods on the cheap.

All this needs is a spark in the whole haystack. If confidence in US treasuries falls, it will hurt the US no doubt. But it will hurt China even more. They will have to move their money elsewhere. Either they will have to revalue their currency, or start consuming more or buy oil or gold.

Either way, the world order is going to change. Perhaps there may even be a second Chinese revolution!

 

[biswa]

Mr. Y. I appreciate the sentiments of your post and have no sympathy for the Republicans. However I wonder if the problem is bigger than either Republicans or Democrats.

In a flat, globalized world (Thomas Friedman should be given a Nobel), any job flows to the cheapest provider. This applies to the car makers in Korea, the shirt makers in Bangladesh and the call center operators in Noida. If the US wants to preserve its high wages, it will have to deliver more. And that is difficult in today's world where information and knowledge flow faster than light.

Sure protectionism, trade tariffs is one possibility. But does one know where an all-out trade war will end? Even India is now flooded with Chinese goods.

China has very smart rulers who are very alert to any and all external threats. Perhaps the only hope of countering China is to try to destabilize it from within.

 

[sarang]

india and china held the first two spots in the world trade, and per capita income in the past and will regain their lost positions in the next thirty years. This view, propounded by some may not be acceptable or palatable; I am sure this will happen.

 

[subbudu1]

What's happening to the Economy, Jobs and GDP in the US?


I wrote earlier that job prospects for our youngsters are getting worse every year in the US..many of the foreign students may not realize this basic fact. This could lead to massive disillusion and loss of hope for them.

Some of us say "Oh, don't worry things will get "Normal" again soon".

Maybe, may not be.

Many predict that the New Normal will be 9% unemployment and 11% under-employment (about 20% of the total labor force (about 150 million - about 50% of the total population) in mental anguish.

What did we do wrong in the near past?

1. It's a fact that our economy has been expanding well since WW II. Between 1945 till 1980 we had peace in the world (except the Cold War) and prosperity in the "land of the free - US"... during this time two very important export economies - Germany and Japan- were built from the total ruin, and our tax structure was very progressive, the marginal tax rate reaching as high as 90% on the income, and the fiscal deficit was low and public debt was coming down from 90% of GDP to nearly 30% of GDP in 1980.

2. Then the Supply Siders came in the guise of Ronald Reagan, Bushes. They slashed the marginal tax rate to nearly 30%, spent enormously on Star War armaments and Wars...this took the public debt to nearly 100% and income inequality rose and rich were getting richer and poor were going poorer.

3. The same time Globalization started in about 1980.. Communist China embraced American style Capitalism... our multi-national corporations were attracted with no tax on Capital Gain and corporate tax was set much lower than the US...American low and mid level manufacturing was destroyed because of competition from Chinese, who were keeping their currency artificially very low, always creating a massive trade deficit in their favor..

This never happened when Germans and Japanese massively exported to the US, because they were competing on level playing field of similar labor cost..

Chinese have relatively very low labor and business cost because of no labor laws, and environmental degradation was ignored willfully.

I charge our policy makers for allowing Chinese to invade our manufacturing base and destroying it. This is the root cause of our current problem.

4. How to rebuild America?

China must be stopped: We must say that only managed balanced trade with China, who is a trade manipulator.

5. Our corporate tax laws must be structured in such a way that our MNCs create jobs in America, and not outside.

6. Our personal income tax must be made very progressive, and capital gains and dividends must be taxed at the same rate as income.

7. Our slogan should be "Jobs, Jobs and More Jobs"... not "999" or similar crap from the Republican Supply Siders!

More later...

The solution for USA and India or any other country is self - sufficiency. Think locally then act globally. Only surplus production must be for external consumption.

Let us take the case of USA whose population is much less than India. Solution is much easier hence.
The government must predict the population growth for next 50 years,call a think tank to analyze the following.
1. The basic requirements for every citizen is 2000$ for every family( of four) in USA( subtract luxury goods, high cost education etc). In India I made a calculation to find that if somebody is earning below Rs. 15000 his basic needs will never be met. Anyway there is a figure here. Considering population growth and retirement rate the basic income per adult can be estimated. Two children/adult cannot be exceeded without putting pressure on economy. So anything more cannot be acceptable for government subsidies.
2. How much of basic requirements such as food and education can be met from within USA. Plan that .
3. The means for cutting out inflation. If necessary the government must approve any price of a product, atleast in the short run.
4. Calculate number of jobs that need to be generated to maintain this 2000$ or 15000 Rs per person. The ideal solution is government allocate the retirement benefits of an individual in addition to this salary. The jobs must generate that retirement benefit.
5. Calculate the salary that should be given to the people to ensure this balance with the retirement benefits in mind as well.
6. Put a high cost on import of goods and services, so that local people consume local products and locally made goods.
7. Ensure that a premium is extracted from companies which setup shop outside USA. They must pay taxes for their revenue abroad.
8. In countries like India export of food is to be banned. Further a systematic plan to phase out the use of products from non renewable sources is to be made.
9. I recommend some drastic spartan like measures. Every family must live only by certain units of electricity , certain units of food and certain units of petroleum and other such amenities. Anything more will be available at a premium rate, unless that item is available in plenty with demand being less, and it does not deplete the resources. I further recommend that there need be no house tax and only tax on any additional property owned by a family unit. We can certainly introduce spartan measures like this.

 

[prasad1]

Economics is not a science, even though they claim it to be one. Things do not work as predicted. So solutions based on such flimsy premise will fail. Globalization is a fact of life, and we can not put it back in the bottle. Protectionism is not a solution, as it just punishes the consumers. What worked 50 years ago is not going to work now. Self sufficiency made us live with HM Ambassador for 50 years. So that kind of self sufficiency is self punishment.
We must expect a level playing field and innovations to keep our economy chugging along. Government can help in this regard. The new reality is that other countries can emulate us and do it better at cheaper price. So we have to keep going up in quality and innovations. Education must be given higher priority to get an edge for our younger people. Our young people must learn language, culture, and politics of other countries like, China, Spain, Ireland, and others.
Other countries have done it in the past, Japan did it 80's and Korea is doing it in now, and China will do it next.

 

[kunjuppu]

india and china held the first two spots in the world trade, and per capita income in the past and will regain their lost positions in the next thirty years. This view, propounded by some may not be acceptable or palatable; I am sure this will happen.

wonderful prediction! based on what? please.

have we written off europe and usa?

or brazil does not exist? - large size and population?

or russia? i agree, we can write off russia.

 

[kunjuppu]

wharton, harvard, columbia all have foreign campuses. here is another famous one.

 

[biswa]

wonderful prediction! based on what? please.

have we written off europe and usa?

or brazil does not exist? - large size and population?

or russia? i agree, we can write off russia.

If there is one thing history has taught us, it is that nobody stays on top for ever. Remember the Roman empire, the Persian Empire, the British empire? So too will the American empire decline and fall and something else will take its place.

It could be China, Korea or India. Brazil, Russia are more of a long shot. Clearly the smart money is on China (they at least have their population under control).

 

[biswa]

3. The means for cutting out inflation. If necessary the government must approve any price of a product, atleast in the short run.

You can't be serious! Remember Soviet Union?

 

[kunjuppu]

If there is one thing history has taught us, it is that nobody stays on top for ever. Remember the Roman empire, the Persian Empire, the British empire? So too will the American empire decline and fall and something else will take its place.

It could be China, Korea or India. Brazil, Russia are more of a long shot. Clearly the smart money is on China (they at least have their population under control).

i think, in the future, to be a world player, you need a critical population of 100 million or so, in order to have a strong industrial base, home market and economic clout.

brazil, russia, south africa indonesia india china pakistan europe usa mexico all qualify. though not sure if china, usa, europe will have competition in the next 50 years.

large land mass countries like canada, australia, argentina, saudi arabia, kazakhstan do not have population base.

med size countries like iran, iraq, thailand, malaysia can be influential bit players.

small countries like libya can produce atom bombs and distribute it free to destroy everyone above.

 

[Yamaka]

Mr. Y. I appreciate the sentiments of your post and have no sympathy for the Republicans. However I wonder if the problem is bigger than either Republicans or Democrats.

In a flat, globalized world (Thomas Friedman should be given a Nobel), any job flows to the cheapest provider. This applies to the car makers in Korea, the shirt makers in Bangladesh and the call center operators in Noida. If the US wants to preserve its high wages, it will have to deliver more. And that is difficult in today's world where information and knowledge flow faster than light.

Sure protectionism, trade tariffs is one possibility. But does one know where an all-out trade war will end? Even India is now flooded with Chinese goods.

China has very smart rulers who are very alert to any and all external threats. Perhaps the only hope of countering China is to try to destabilize it from within.

Hello Biswa:

1. I favor a managed trade with China - meaning reaching a parity between exports and imports. Chinese should never be allowed to post a persistent trade surplus in their favor.

2. I favor international trade based on same labor and environmental laws - one should never engage in international trade based solely on "cheap labor cost", which is what's happening today between China and the rest of the West... this "cheap labor cost" is without taking into account the poor labor laws and environmental degradation - this is called the "External Cost" unseen readily by people... this must be stopped.

Between 1945 and now, Germany and Japan has been exporting heavily to the US.. this was not based on "Cheap Labor Cost", but on technological improvements and innovations... that's fine with me... we don't have any persistent trade deficit with them... that gave a "Win Win" situation for ALL parties involved... but with China it's a Zero Sum Game - Chinese win and the West loses. This must be stopped immediately.

3. When Friedman talked about the World is Flat he deliberately ignored this External Cost hidden. That was a real travesty.

I am not really favoring protectionism or trade tariff... but we need to protect ALL international labor laws and the environment.

4. China, after losing the Intellectual War on Communism Vs Capitalism, has embarked on a new Paradigm: With a Single Political Party AND embracing the American Capitalism they can beat the West.

This for now appears to be working... but not for too long...

Liu Xiaboa (who got the Nobel Peace Prize last year) is asking for the Implementation of Charter 08 (Free Speech and Assembly enshrined in China's Constitution).

How many young Chinese intellectuals will follow suit, we don't know...

Wait & watch.