Mangalyam and Kodi

[bhavana]

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Respected Senior Members


I want to place a query regarding the kodi (chain) in which the mangalyam is worn.Most of the working women today do not wear the manjal kayaru and the thali is worn in a thick chain.At present there are lot of chain snatching incidents and some of my close relatives have been victims.So i want to know if we can buy a chain with lots of black beads and little gold like the noth indians and wear the mangalyam in it.I s it ok to wear black beads?

bhavana

 

[sangom]

Respected Senior Members


I want to place a query regarding the kodi (chain) in which the mangalyam is worn.Most of the working women today do not wear the manjal kayaru and the thali is worn in a thick chain.At present there are lot of chain snatching incidents and some of my close relatives have been victims.So i want to know if we can buy a chain with lots of black beads and little gold like the noth indians and wear the mangalyam in it.I s it ok to wear black beads?

bhavana

Smt. Bhavana,

The tradition is still to use the "manjal kayiru" on the day of marriage. As I had stated in aome other thread, thali has no scriptural basis in brahmin or for that matter, in any hindu marriage - north Indian or south Indian. The very mantram "mAngalyam tantunAnEna..." is a late invention. So you can use any type of chain, or even manjalkayiru itself. The main advantage of manjal kayiru will be only that the snatcher may not have to create a wound. But that is also a blessing in disguise, is it not.

Secondly some women are so superstitious about the tali having been snatched. I would like to take this opportunity to say that there is no such special significance for tali; it is OK if women want to wear it and all that. But if a thief snatches it, please don't get upset. The brahmin marriage is based on "pANigrahaNam" and "saptapadee".

 

[bhavana]

Respected Sangom Sir


Thank you for clearing my doubt.



bhavana

 

[kunjuppu]

...

Secondly some women are so superstitious about the tali having been snatched. I would like to take this opportunity to say that there is no such special significance for tali; it is OK if women want to wear it and all that. But if a thief snatches it, please don't get upset. The brahmin marriage is based on "pANigrahaNam" and "saptapadee".

very good advice sangom. as always

one query; the arya samaj wedding is basically vedic rituals sans tambram add ons like kasiyatra, nalangu, oonjal and such like.

the samajists do not believe in idols either. just the fire.

they do have the saptapadi & panigragrahanam. do not other communities follow these rituals too? or are these rituals basically brahmin based?

thanks..

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I wonder why advice on such sensitive issues that should normally come from family elders, prohits and sages is sought here in this forum!

• We can easily prefer to say that there is no significance for 'tAli', but would a religious Christian say the same thing about their wedding ring, however liberated he/she is? Wedding rings are not mentioned in the Bible, but the custom of wearing them originated in ancient Rome, and this custom is honoured in symbolism and significance till date. In the same way, tAli, which is known as mangala-sUtra in Sanskrit, may have no reference in the Shruti, but the custom of wearing it originated in the Hindu tradition during the 6th century CE, so this time-revered custom should be honoured, in significance and symbolism.

KAnchi ParamAchArya has given some details about tAli:

• the name tAli, which is the sacred pendant--padakam, made of gold and added to the mangala sUtra--holy thread of a Hindu woman when she is married, came from the saMskRta word 'tAli' for the plam tree and leaf.

• In the olden days when our ancestors gave us a life of simplicity, a woman's tATangkaH--ear-ring, and the mangala padakam--sacred pendant on her neck--her important chinna--symbols, of saumangalya--auspiciousness, were both made of tAli, that is, the plam leaf. This is the reason for the custom of calling even a diamond stud 'vaira Olai'--diamond leaf.

• Goddess AmbikA herself is spoken of as "tAlI palAsha tATangkAm (verse 6)"--wearing only a cut palm leaf for her tAli and a rolled one for her tATangka, in the 'shyAmala navaratna mAlA'.

• There are many nyAya vachanas--logical sayings, that have come to us from the ancestors. One such saying is the 'kAkatAlIya-nyAyaH' which says that a palm fruit fell down just as a crow sat on its branch. This has an equivalent proverb in Tamil too: "kAkkai uTkAra panampazham vizhu~ndadu".

*****

There are many links that give some good information about the history and significance of the mangala-sUtra. Some of them are:

A Brief Study on the Significance of Thaali among the Tamils
The Hub :: View topic - A Brief Study on the Significance of Thaali among the Tamils

Articles with reference to thaali in the Forum Hub:
thaali - Google Search

Mangalsutra - The tie that binds
Mangalsutra - Indian Wedding Rituals - ShaadiTimes

Mangalsutra
Mangalsutra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what is the history of the mangalsutra? When did it come into practice?
what is the history of the mangalsutra? When did it come into practice? - Ammas.com Ask Agent™ : Ask questions, Seek advice, Ask an expert

*****

In my school days, the Tamizh pundits taught us that in ancient Tamizh culture, married women wore a tAli and men the equivalent of meTTi--toe-ring, to indicate their marital status. As men walked with a straight look and women with a look at the ground, this facilitated easy identification of the marital status of a passerby. I understand that in some Hindu communities (I think the Reddys), the groom wears the toe-ring, while the bride wears the tAli.

 

[sangom]

very good advice sangom. as always

one query; the arya samaj wedding is basically vedic rituals sans tambram add ons like kasiyatra, nalangu, oonjal and such like.

the samajists do not believe in idols either. just the fire.

they do have the saptapadi & panigragrahanam. do not other communities follow these rituals too? or are these rituals basically brahmin based?

thanks..

Shri Kunjuppu,

As you know my second dil belongs to a brahmin family from Indore (natives). The marriage was held according to their customs and we were there. They have "pANigrahaNam" and "saptapadee". It was a traditional style marriage in a rented hall, and not Arya Samaji. The boy's parents have practiclly no role. Even the "raksha" (kAppukkeTTu) is tied, after homam by the boy, with the priest's assistance, if necessary.

The best part was that the priest explained in simple hindi what each of the important items signified and explained the meaning of each mantra of the saptapadee to the bride and groom and then asked them - to whom relevant - whether they understood and agreed. Something akin to the church wedding style!

One thing similar to our rites was the "nAlkkAl nATTu" which they said was skhambhasthApanam or some such word.

All told, I found their wedding to the point. Only thing required from boy's side was 5 sarees (don't know why; probably to be worn on different occasions by the bride.) They do not have the thAli.

 

[kunjuppu]

..All told, I found their wedding to the point. Only thing required from boy's side was 5 sarees (don't know why; probably to be worn on different occasions by the bride.) They do not have the thAli.

thanks sangom. i suspect that in the north, they give greater importance to the sindhur on the nethi, more than we do. all the women in my household, put kungumam on the hairparting only on occassions when vethla paakku is given. never as a regular rule. however in the north, i think they put it more regularly? maybe that is their equivalent of a parineeta (married woman)?

 

[kunjuppu]

namaste everyone.

I wonder why advice on such sensitive issues that should normally come from family elders, prohits and sages is sought here in this forum!

sai,

i am very surprised at this statement. what are we? nincompoops who should not have an opinion? or knowledge?

who defines who is a sage? an elder? come on sir, are we having the same attitude as some folks as in the ic thread, trying to silence an open discussion?

you may demur what is expressed here, but i would have thought, that you would welcome the right to free speech. we certainly do not want folks from opening new thread just because some topics should be the sole domain of elders or sages or purohits as opposed to the peasant members of this forum. do we? don't we?

 

[athreya70]

I know many of my relatives abroad remove Thali .Thali is just a symbol. One such lady forgot to wear when she came to India and her Mother in law noticed and asked.She just told "Forgot" and whats the big deal.Why symbols are gven importance? In west , wedding ring is not sacred.This ring is just a symbol to say "I am married and do not ask me out for a date)

People like Saidevo (whose views I saw in other thread asking women not to take up eductaion etc) are the ones why Brahmins are hated by the rest of the communities.

 

[saidevo]

namaste kunjuppu.

The problem with you people, kunjuppu, is that you derive all sorts of assumptions and presumptions from simple and well-meaning statments made by brahmins like me who want and try to be orthodox, even though not much successful in practical life due to many reasons. You know that I did NOT say or mean all or any of that you derived from my simple statement whose purport is that when it comes to ADVICE, the people I have mentioned are in a far better position to give it. When it comes to DISCUSSION, everyone, repeat EVERYONE, has a right to speak his/her views.

namaste athreya.

You said in post no.9:
"People like Saidevo (whose views I saw in other thread asking women not to take up eductaion etc) are the ones why Brahmins are hated by the rest of the communities."

If spiteful assumption/presumption is the purpose of your above statement, I don't mind to be hated for trying to be an orthodox brahmin. Where did I ask "women not to take up eductaion etc"? I only said that higher education such as an engineering degree is not suitable--or in most cases necessary--for brahmin girls, who, with that education, have to take up demanding jobs such as in the IT sector, leading to practical difficulties in their family life.

CheTTiArs, for example, are more orthodox in many families than us, and it is not that all the girls in their families are allowed to take up higher education. They also marry within the family circle, and have a proud tradition about it, to protect their wealth. Do the other communities hate CheTTiArs? Why should they hate brahmins trying to be orthodox?

I hope that the members who take opinionated exception to the conventional views expressed in this 'Philosophy and Traditions' forum have read the mission statement of TBF for this forum:

"This section deals with the philosophical roots of current practices - it does NOT deal with whether such practices should still be in place or not. If you want to question these this is NOT the thread for you; there is another thread in the Philosophy section that might work better."

Dissonance can always be expressed in gentler and more impersonal terms, whereas orthodox views always look stern.

 

[C RAVI]

namaste kunjuppu.

The problem with you people, kunjuppu, is that you derive all sorts of assumptions and presumptions from simple and well-meaning statments made by brahmins like me who want and try to be orthodox, even though not much successful in practical life due to many reasons. You know that I did NOT say or mean all or any of that you derived from my simple statement whose purport is that when it comes to ADVICE, the people I have mentioned are in a far better position to give it. When it comes to DISCUSSION, everyone, repeat EVERYONE, has a right to speak his/her views.

namaste athreya.

You said in post no.9:
"People like Saidevo (whose views I saw in other thread asking women not to take up eductaion etc) are the ones why Brahmins are hated by the rest of the communities."

If spiteful assumption/presumption is the purpose of your above statement, I don't mind to be hated for trying to be an orthodox brahmin. Where did I ask "women not to take up eductaion etc"? I only said that higher education such as an engineering degree is not suitable--or in most cases necessary--for brahmin girls, who, with that education, have to take up demanding jobs such as in the IT sector, leading to practical difficulties in their family life.

CheTTiArs, for example, are more orthodox in many families than us, and it is not that all the girls in their families are allowed to take up higher education. They also marry within the family circle, and have a proud tradition about it, to protect their wealth. Do the other communities hate CheTTiArs? Why should they hate brahmins trying to be orthodox?

I hope that the members who take opinionated exception to the conventional views expressed in this 'Philosophy and Traditions' forum have read the mission statement of TBF for this forum:

"This section deals with the philosophical roots of current practices - it does NOT deal with whether such practices should still be in place or not. If you want to question these this is NOT the thread for you; there is another thread in the Philosophy section that might work better."

Dissonance can always be expressed in gentler and more impersonal terms, whereas orthodox views always look stern.

Hats off to you Sri Saidevo ji.....

 

[athreya70]

Mr Saidevo,

No body started questioning - It is all started by you through your post on questioning why some body asked questions.

 

[sangom]

Originally posted by Shri Saidevo

I hope that the members who take opinionated exception to the conventional views expressed in this 'Philosophy and Traditions' forum have read the mission statement of TBF for this forum:

"This section deals with the philosophical roots of current practices - it does NOT deal with whether such practices should still be in place or not. If you want to question these this is NOT the thread for you; there is another thread in the Philosophy section that might work better."

To all members,

Despite whatever opinions we may have on any of the topics, I feel we should abide by the directives of the forum.

When the doubt was raised by Smt. Bhavana, I did not observe the above caveat and gave my views. I apologize for this oversight.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I would like to clarify that it was never my intention to find fault with the progressive opinions of any member. I only wanted to express the idea that individual opinions cannot be substitutes for advice on religious conventions, and in that respect, I had to point out the forum directive.

That shrI Sangom has accepted having overlooked this directive shows his greatness, which I appreciate with all sincerity.

 

[Nara]

That shrI Sangom has accepted having overlooked this directive shows his greatness, which I appreciate with all sincerity.

Saidevo, i agree with the above observation. Without taking anything away from it, I would like to submit that, in my observation, the directives of forums are often vague and hard to follow strictly.

Further, the OP, asked an open question. which itself did not fit the directive of this section. Perhaps she should have been asked to post her question elsewhere in the site, but people normally jump in and contribute and don't pay much attention to the directives. The agraharam thread in this same section is another case in point. The discussion there also violates this directive.

So, as long as the discussion is civil, I don't see transgressions of section directives as serious offense.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

namaste kunjuppu.

The problem with you people, kunjuppu, is that you derive all sorts of assumptions and presumptions from simple and well-meaning statments made by brahmins like me who want and try to be orthodox, even though not much successful in practical life due to many reasons. You know that I did NOT say or mean all or any of that you derived from my simple statement whose purport is that when it comes to ADVICE, the people I have mentioned are in a far better position to give it. When it comes to DISCUSSION, everyone, repeat EVERYONE, has a right to speak his/her views.

.

sai,

i think i may not have been clear enough. it is never my intention to stop anyone. if at all, i would like to think i am the other way around, ie encourage folks to say what they want, as long as it is said politely.

i have never stopped anyone from being orthodox, but apparently whatever i say, appear to irk certain folks, because i feel that no way of life is superior to another. you yourself have indicated that though you try to be orthodox, you are 'not much successful in practical life due to many reasons' which
is ok as far as i am concerned.

re chettiars, and the restrictions on girls, it is my view, that these folks are just a few years behind us, regarding the emancipation of their womenfolk from secondary roles. those of us, who can accept the changes, move along without any conflicts; while others who do, appear to have problems.

it is upto each what theywish to practice. i wish you well in your quest.

thank you.