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Malaysia Airlines..TVK

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tks said:
These topics can keep one engaged for a long time, there is no hurry - and it is not even necessary to share. If you have a clarity in your mind that is all that matters. The only reason I asked the question is because of your stated stance on prayer in other posts Thanks
Click to expand...

Dear TKS ji,

I dont mind sharing my opinion..since you asked at least now I have a reason to read chapter 12.
For me I take every suggestion as a reason to act on it.

There might be something in chapter 12 that I might actually need to re understand since its the 2nd time you have "reminded" me.

So chapter 12 it is for me today.

Will get back to you when I am done.
 
Dear TKS ji,

I glanced thru Chapter 12 which I have read before a couple of times.

Lord Krishna describes the characteristics of devotee that is "dear" to Him and recommends various ways to Fix the Mind as in Steadfast.

Well this chapter can be approached in many ways..the external, internal or monoistic approach.

1) When ever Lord Krishna uses the word ME in any stanza the reader can take it in a Dualistic Manner and focus on the ME outside of the reader.

or

2)When ever Lord Krishna uses the word ME in any stanza the reader can take it in a Semi Dualistic Manner and focus on the ME inside of the reader...but still the distinction of "God" and the devotee exists though internally..its like 2 tenants sharing the same abode.


or

3)The Monoistic approach would be just reading the stanza as ME =SELF.



BTW from what I can understand about Chapter 12..its all about uplifting one's self...there is no hint whatsoever of any personal desire ridden situations or any miracle promised or any power attained...in fact Karma Phala Thyaga is emphasized.

Bhakti Yoga should never be confused with Transaction Based Prayers done by most of us humans.In Bhakti Yoga there is no transaction...there is only One Pointedness.
 
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renuka said:
Dear TKS ji,

I glanced thru Chapter 12 which I have read before a couple of times.

Lord Krishna describes the characteristics of devotee that is "dear" to Him and recommends various ways to Fix the Mind as in Steadfast.

Well this chapter can be approached in many ways..the external, internal or monoistic approach.

1) When ever Lord Krishna uses the word ME in any stanza the reader can take it in a Dualistic Manner and focus on the ME outside of the reader.

or

2)When ever Lord Krishna uses the word ME in any stanza the reader can take it in a Semi Dualistic Manner and focus on the ME inside of the reader...but still the distinction of "God" and the devotee exists though internally..its like 2 tenants sharing the same abode.


or

3)The Monoistic approach would be just reading the stanza as ME =SELF.



BTW from what I can understand about Chapter 12..its all about uplifting one's self...there is no hint whatsoever of any personal desire ridden situations or any miracle promised or any power attained...in fact Karma Phala Thyaga is emphasized.

Bhakti Yoga should never be confused with Transaction Based Prayers done by most of us humans.In Bhakti Yoga there is no transaction...there is only One Pointedness.
Click to expand...


1. Chapter 7 verses 16, 21, 22 etc do not knock down Transactional worship for a given result. This is consistent with overall assertion that pursuit of security and desires are legitimate for a human being

2. There cannot be multiple approaches based on our whim as to how a given truth is understood. B. Gita describes a conversation between a person (Arjuna) and Sri Krishna presented as Bhagavan. It will be absurd to read the verses as Me .. Why would I want to do that?

3. The word internal and external is hard to relate to. Is the skin of the body the boundary layer between internal and external? If so as a person moves the locus of 'internal' moves in space with our movement? Inside our body we are just flesh and bones and nothing else.

Is internal just an abstract idea as to what we consider internal and external in our mind? How will one define what is external and internal in a non-ambiguous manner?
 
Dear TKS ji,

Answers in blue


tks said:
1. Chapter 7 verses 16, 21, 22 etc do not knock down Transactional worship for a given result. This is consistent with overall assertion that pursuit of security and desires are legitimate for a human being

Transaction based is the word I call it.I am not saying its wrong..I had even had this conversation with an ISCKON monk 2 years ago in India when I visited their Temple and he was using the same word "Transaction".
He said most of our prayers are transaction types where we are often asking things for our ownselves and not for the real purpose of realizing Krishna.Ok ..he chose to call God as Krishna and I chose to call God as Universal Consciousness.

2. There cannot be multiple approaches based on our whim as to how a given truth is understood. B. Gita describes a conversation between a person (Arjuna) and Sri Krishna presented as Bhagavan. It will be absurd to read the verses as Me .. Why would I want to do that?

When there can be multiple ways to reach God why cant there be multiple ways for anything else including understanding.Its not whims and fancies..its how the Truth chooses to unfold with regards to time,place and person.

Why not read the verses as ME=SELF?? Yat Bhavam Tat Bhavati. What is holding you back??
For a crystal of salt to know its origin it needs to go to the ocean...become the ocean.

3. The word internal and external is hard to relate to. Is the skin of the body the boundary layer between internal and external? If so as a person moves the locus of 'internal' moves in space with our movement? Inside our body we are just flesh and bones and nothing else.

I have cut up many bodies..looked within and all I saw in the physical body.I did not see the mind..I did not see anything beyond that.

I know that we humans have no control over our autonomic nervous system..our heart beats even when we are asleep..our kidney work without us thinking about it..there is another system that governs everything..something we hardly know about..the human mind remains a mystery that none of us can even unravel...then comes our mind and emotions..something most of us do not even really know.
But all these to a great extent is still perceivable and able to be interpreted.

The real internal is that which stands away from all these..what is it? That is the internal.
Is internal just an abstract idea as to what we consider internal and external in our mind? How will one define what is external and internal in a non-ambiguous manner?

Non ambiguous manner..its simple..I am inside of the house and my car is outside of the house!LOL

Ok lets take a simple example..I always prefer to use falling in love as a example.

Just say we are falling in love with someone..we do display external signs and symptoms of love like smiling more..change in body language..low tone voice..longer glances and "smiling" with your eyes.

Now coming to the internal feeling of falling in love..its not that easy to describe..we are only able to relate the feeling externally but the internal feeling is yet to be even located where it actually starts and spreads.Its diffused through us..the feeling runs through us..its floods our mind too.

Now try to figure this in the spiritual manner..Bhakti is external..Bhava is internal.
Click to expand...
 
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renuka said:
Dear TBS ji,

You should see our newspaper today..every passengers face is given with the words RIP.

Its a very sad day for us here but even then..the search is only over when the bodies are found.
Click to expand...
hi renu,

i can understand u.....but something beyond us....i dont think getting any bodies....may be some debris may be available after

some yrs....
 
renuka said:
Dear TKS ji,

Answers in blue
Click to expand...


1. Chapter 7 verses 16, 21, 22 etc do not knock down Transactional worship for a given result. This is consistent with overall assertion that pursuit of security and desires are legitimate for a human being

Transaction based is the word I call it.I am not saying its wrong..I had even had this conversation with an ISCKON monk 2 years ago in India when I visited their Temple and he was using the same word "Transaction".
He said most of our prayers are transaction types where we are often asking things for our ownselves and not for the real purpose of realizing Krishna.Ok ..he chose to call God as Krishna and I chose to call God as Universal Consciousness.

>>>>TKS : The point is that people do not have to realize Krishna or whatever it is called. People may pray for their wants and such an action may or may not yield results. But it is an accepted mode of worship per Gita and is based on an individual's goals. While I am not for any prayer of any kind personally I can understand and accept that most people (theists) are motivated by their desire and need for security to pray. All religions tend to cater to this need only. I had misunderstood or did not understand what you were saying earlier about prayer .I thought you were against prayer of the transaction kind. That is why I wanted to cite B.Gita

2. There cannot be multiple approaches based on our whim as to how a given truth is understood. B. Gita describes a conversation between a person (Arjuna) and Sri Krishna presented as Bhagavan. It will be absurd to read the verses as Me .. Why would I want to do that?

When there can be multiple ways to reach God why cant there be multiple ways for anything else including understanding.Its not whims and fancies..its how the Truth chooses to unfold with regards to time,place and person.

>>>TKS - Multiple paths to reach whatever is a myth and cannot stand the test of scrutiny - If you are convinced there are multiple paths according to each individual's desire, so be it.

Why not read the verses as ME=SELF?? Yat Bhavam Tat Bhavati. What is holding you back??
For a crystal of salt to know its origin it needs to go to the ocean...become the ocean.

>>>TKS Nothing is holding me back.. This is not at all what the teaching is about in my understanding. The analogies like a crystal wanting to know its origin sounds good but will not make sense if one tries to apply to any other situation.

The origin that the salt's underlying nature (atom) was created from star dust from a collapsing star many billions of years ago can never be understood by the salt falling into the ocean. OK - my extension is just as absurd indeed LoL but it is in the same line of thinking of the original analogy
Bhavam for what we want to achieve is a good advice but unfortunately it cannot apply to the example. We are limited by space and time and can never become time and space independent.

If someone is a miser and wants to cut down his suffering resulting from a narrow mind the advice would be to act out as if he is generous. But it cannot apply to 'realizing Krishna or whatever it is called '.

Such a thinking will lead to more contradictions with both what we experience and what is taught elsewhere in other places in Gita (as in Chapter 2) . This point cannot be debated in the forum anymore in my view. So we will leave it as it is.

3. The word internal and external is hard to relate to. Is the skin of the body the boundary layer between internal and external? If so as a person moves the locus of 'internal' moves in space with our movement? Inside our body we are just flesh and bones and nothing else.

I have cut up many bodies..looked within and all I saw in the physical body.I did not see the mind..I did not see anything beyond that.

I know that we humans have no control over our autonomic nervous system..our heart beats even when we are asleep..our kidney work without us thinking about it..there is another system that governs everything..something we hardly know about..the human mind remains a mystery that none of us can even unravel...then comes our mind and emotions..something most of us do not even really know.
But all these to a great extent is still perceivable and able to be interpreted.

The real internal is that which stands away from all these..what is it? That is the internal.

Is internal just an abstract idea as to what we consider internal and external in our mind? How will one define what is external and internal in a non-ambiguous manner?

Non ambiguous manner..its simple..I am inside of the house and my car is outside of the house!LOL

>>>TKS Not sure why it is obvious - you are using your house as your arbitrary separation point in this example which will change in another example. Such analogies do not hold up for concrete discussions. The truth for this topic area is not and cannot be arbitrary like that (Atma - anatma teaching)

Ok lets take a simple example..I always prefer to use falling in love as a example.

Just say we are falling in love with someone..we do display external signs and symptoms of love like smiling more..change in body language..low tone voice..longer glances and "smiling" with your eyes.

Now coming to the internal feeling of falling in love..its not that easy to describe..we are only able to relate the feeling externally but the internal feeling is yet to be even located where it actually starts and spreads.Its diffused through us..the feeling runs through us..its floods our mind too.

Now try to figure this in the spiritual manner..Bhakti is external..Bhava is internal.

>>>TKS Not sure if Bhakthi is an action for someone else to perceive - Bhakthi that is talked about in Chapter 12 has nothing to with any action per se. Bhava is a thought manifested in the brain. In a few years with scan of brain one can measure what someone is thinking and what emotions they are feeling. There is nothing external and internal about such things including Bhava. All these bhava and love which are physical entities in the brain die when the body dies...and they are measurable externally (or will be soon)

 
Raji Ram said:
​Very sad to read the latest news!
Click to expand...

Not sure if the PM of Malaysia just wanted people to feel a sense of closure.. I think the search for this will continue.
It is sad no matter what had happened. If the flight was going for hours I cannot imagine the terror the people in the plane must have felt
 
I think the passengers should be allowed to rest in peace. Chances are, until proven otherwise, the poor pilots sincerely tried to save the plane and save all the lives.
 
It is hard to keep up with facts from fiction & imagination of so called reporters wanting to sensationalize the event ..
It will be nice if someone who is keeping tab on the ever changing findings and share only established facts based news.
 
There is suspicion that the plane was deliberately diverted from its original route because of some " Mysterious Cargo in MH 370"
,
If you Google "MH 370 Mystery- Suspicious Cargo & Death of 2 Ex.Navy Seals aboard MV Maserk Alabama",you can read the contents.
After Sept11th incident in USA "Remote controlling Technology has been installed in all planes.There seem to be a possibility that this Flight was diverted by remote Tecnology
for some ulterior motive.The world will never know the real Story of this incident.
 
B.Krishnamurthy said:
There is suspicion that the plane was deliberately diverted from its original route because of some " Mysterious Cargo in MH 370"
,
If you Google "MH 370 Mystery- Suspicious Cargo & Death of 2 Ex.Navy Seals aboard MV Maserk Alabama",you can read the contents.
After Sept11th incident in USA "Remote controlling Technology has been installed in all planes.There seem to be a possibility that this Flight was diverted by remote Tecnology
for some ulterior motive.The world will never know the real Story of this incident.
Click to expand...


Dear Sir,

This is what some are saying too but as you said we might never ever know.
 
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