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Logic and Perception...

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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Let me start this thread with this story:

The story happened in the days of Lao Tzu in China and Lao Tzu loved it
very much:

There was an old man in a village, very poor, but even kings were jealous
of him because he had a beautiful white horse. Kings offered fabulous
prices for the horse, but the man would say, "This horse is not a horse to
me, he is a person. And how can you sell a person, a friend?"

The man was poor, but he never sold the horse.

One morning, he found that the horse was not in the stable. The whole
village gathered and they said, "You foolish old man! We knew that someday the horse would be stolen. It would have been better to sell it.
What a misfortune!"

The old man said, "Don't go so far as to say that. Simply say that the
horse is not in the stable. This is the fact; everything else is a judgment. Whether it is a misfortune or a blessing I don't know, because this is just a fragment. Who knows what is going to follow it?"

People laughed at the old man. They had always known that he was a little crazy. But after fifteen days, suddenly one night the horse returned. He had not been stolen, he had escaped into the wild. And not only that, he brought a dozen wild horses with him.

Again the people gathered and they said, "Old man, you were right. This was not a misfortune, it has indeed proved to be a blessing."

The old man said, "Again you are going too far. Just say that the horse is
back . . . who knows whether it is a blessing or not? It is only a fragment. You read a single word in a sentence how can you judge the whole
book?"

This time the people could not say much, but inside they knew that he was wrong. Twelve beautiful horses had come. The old man had an only son who started to train the wild horses. Just a week later he fell from a horse and his legs were broken.

The people gathered again and again they judged. They said, "Again you
proved right! It was a misfortune. Your only son has lost the use of his
legs, and in your old age he was your only support. Now you are poorer than ever."

The old man said, "You are obsessed with judgment. Don't go that far.

Say only that my son has broken his legs. Nobody knows whether this is a
misfortune or a blessing. Life comes in fragments and more is never given
to you."

It happened that after a few weeks the country went to war and all the
young men of the town were forcibly taken for the military. Only the old
man's son was left, because he was crippled. The whole town was crying and weeping because it was a losing fight and they knew most of the young people would never come back. They came to the old man and they said, "You were right, old man-this has proved a blessing. Maybe your son is crippled, but he is still with you. Our sons are gone forever."

The old man said again, "You go on and on judging. Nobody knows! Only say this - that your sons have been forced to enter into the army and my son has not been forced. But only God, the total, knows whether it is a
blessing or a misfortune."

'Judge not' otherwise you will never become one with the total. With
fragments you will be obsessed, with small things you will jump to
conclusions. Once you judge you have stopped growing. Judgment means a stale state of mind. And mind always wants judgment, because to be in
process is always hazardous and uncomfortable.

In fact, the journey never ends. One path ends, another begins: one door
closes another opens. You reach a peak; a higher peak is always there. God is an endless journey. Only those who are so courageous that they don't bother about the goal but are content with the journey, content just to live the moment and grow into it, only those are able to walk with the total.
 
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s007bala

Guest
s s

so beautiful,awesome piece=am i judging or expressing a delight?incidently my nick name in my school was 'kudhirai'...hmmm

sb
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Cognition is the basic process which underlies any being and it can vary from species to species...

Based on cognition, combined with the senses, we infer the patterns around us and arrive at a conclusion... Unless, if it were proved otherwise, the mind through a process of evaluation, fixes on the existing pattern and concludes that to be either true or false... If true, it eventually becomes a fact... such facts then form the basis for evaluating further happenings... this process of continuous evaluation, based on basic sensory perceptions, forms the basis for reasoning...

Reasoning combined with experiences form the basis for Logic...
 
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s007bala

Guest
re

the mind always judges continuously, in a subtle way, even when expressing... it is only in extremes that the outer mind stops judging...

s s

that means our rishis,munis,avatarams correctly guided us theu ancient scriptures.our sanathana dharma gurus even today guide us,its modern science which is working to prove what our ancients already experianced and coded it for us in mantras.or am i imagining too many issues here?

so,in effect there are three minds at the very least.

( 1) one which we think consciously.

(2) one what others think of us consciously

(3) one which thinks for all of us conscoiusly or sub-consciously or un-consciouscly like in a comatose patient or special attenttion people (mentally retarded).a superior mind=brahman.

nice i like this example that you gave about chinese,as they are as ancient civilisation like ours.

sb
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Are all events a pre-determined logic? Does God have control?

This is another story that I had heard from my Periappa: (I heard it a long time ago, and hence, I have filled up the gaps with my own version!) Lord Vishnu and Narada were in conversation; the topic was about "Vidhi" or Fate.

"What is Vidhi? Is it something that is out of control of even the Supreme? Surely you, O Lord, could change it, if you wanted to?" Narada asked.

The Lord smiled and proceeded to tell a story:

"There was a wealthy and pious couple who were loved and respected by their entire village. They had all the comforts in the world, but did not have a son. So, they prayed and observed religious diligence for many a year. At last their efforts were rewarded and they were blessed with a lovely child. The couple were overjoyed and thanked the Lord profusely. Also, they decided to celebrate the occasion by arranging a feast for the entire village.

Accordingly preparations were made. Loads and loads of vegetables, rice, spices, cashews, jaggery and other items were procured and were prepared in a separate spot some distance away from the place where food was to be served.

Many men were put to work and in order to send the food from the preparatory area to the serving area, a bullock cart was used. The vessels contained food were closed with a banana leaf and tied around and then placed on the cart.

The bullock cart was going along on one of its trips, carrying with it, among other delicacies, a big vessel containing payasam.

At the same time, nearby to the place, an eagle had swooped down on a venomous serpent. It picked the serpent in its talons and started to soar. The serpent was not giving up; it too started to struggle viciously to save itself from the clutches of the eagle. The eagle was high up on the sky passing directly above the bullock cart carrying the food.

At that very moment, a sudden gust of strong wind blew, the cover of the payasam vessel blew off; the serpent escaped from the talons of the eagle, but fell directly into the uncovered payasam vessel. All this happened simultaneously and quickly that the cart driver could not observe anything. He re-arranged the cover back on the vessel thinking that nothing had happened. The serpent died inside the hot payasam, but its venom was mixed.

Unaware of all this, the rich man and his wife themselves served the payasam to all the members, and when they had done so for all that were present, the guests started to eat, all at the same time. Within a matter of minutes, the entire village lay dead. The couple were horror stricken with grief and lamented in anguish. What started as a happy occasion had ended in a nightmare."

"So now, tell me Narada, what/who is the cause here? The eagle which was observing its natural instincts, by preying on the serpent? Or the Serpent which was also obeying its instincts by trying to save its life? Or the wind which blew away the cover? Or the cart owner who had no knowledge of the serpent in the vessel? Or the rich couple, who were just doing their dharma?" the Lord asked.

Narada stood agape, unable to answer.

"And that, my dear Narada, is Vidhi", the Lord smiled.
 
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sapr333

Guest
Seshadri, though I enjoyed the story, Im not sure how to fit "Logic & Perception' in to that story.

Could you please explain what kind of logic was used there, and where was the perception?
 

sridharvasudevan

Active member
Being a witness without any thought would be an achievement worthy in life. But, understanding the limits of duty/dharma and not foregoing the witness state would be an art in itself.

However, would it not be a way of judging in itself when we try to discriminate the line between duty and witness state?
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Being a witness without any thought would be an achievement worthy in life. But, understanding the limits of duty/dharma and not foregoing the witness state would be an art in itself.

However, would it not be a way of judging in itself when we try to discriminate the line between duty and witness state?

But should we try to analyse the discrimination...?!

Methinks that the moral of the story is that we are bound by our perceptive judgements, which may or may not be true, but irrespective of whether it is true or not, we stick on to it and keep on concluding.

The pure and absolute mind has neither action nor inaction... it is only with addons that all deductive reasoning arise...

I dont know whether this answers...
 

sridharvasudevan

Active member
But should we try to analyse the discrimination...?!

Methinks that the moral of the story is that we are bound by our perceptive judgements, which may or may not be true, but irrespective of whether it is true or not, we stick on to it and keep on concluding.

The pure and absolute mind has neither action nor inaction... it is only with addons that all deductive reasoning arise...

I dont know whether this answers...


Is there discrimination without thoughts? Is thought based decision making possible without analysis?

Perceptions and assumptions - Perception, perspective angles are simply different view points of the same object or event. While assumption is all about concluding without concrete knowledge of the object or event. Substitute assumption in place of perception the story seems good.

Absolute mind...hmmm...is a mind that operates without the identity of the smaller self or ego....rather it is about a mind which is selfless. Yes selfless mind is one which has neither action or inaction.

But the addons here are about the ego of the self...which wants to think/act and conclude/decide even without concrete knowledge of an object or event.

Still my questions remain....

Being a witness without any thought would be an achievement worthy in life. But, understanding the limits of duty/dharma and not foregoing the witness state would be an art in itself.

However, would it not be a way of judging in itself when we try to discriminate the line between duty and witness state?

The only way I seem to understand is drop the ego and everything else will fall in place.
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
But perception leads to assumptions; for, a single event different people may assume differently, and hence an assumption is the result of an event being perceived differently according to their own logical scheme of things...
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
My point here is that one cannot judge... judgement arises out of assumptions; assumptions are made when the options/reasons surrounding an event are not clear; when anything is unclear, individual perceptions take over and influence the thinking...

The root is perception...
 

sridharvasudevan

Active member
But perception leads to assumptions; for, a single event different people may assume differently, and hence an assumption is the result of an event being perceived differently according to their own logical scheme of things...


Assumption is the likes of supposition or guess

While Perception is the likes of insight or awareness

Well we can get these from synonyms in MS word :)


Let's go back to some things i had been reflecting and asking:

However, would it not be a way of judging in itself when we try to discriminate the line between duty and witness state?

The only way I seem to understand is drop the ego and everything else will fall in place.

Now how to drop the ego? Only then can I or we be like the old man in your story.
 

sridharvasudevan

Active member
Dear MM,

True...the idea tastes as sweet as a malgova mango. But, the shell seems to be on the out side of the mango here.

It is a question of methodology to over come the ego.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
An example - logic, perception, congnition.

Mr.A wants to go the a shop in the next street. He "assumes" or "perceives" it will take him 5 min to walk there, because he "perceives" it to be abt 100 metres away.

However, the shop is actually 110 meteres away. It takes 5 min for Mr.A to reach there everytime, so he "perceives" it is about 100m away always.

Just because Mr.A "perceives" the shop to be 100m away, it does not make it that way. That the shop is 110m away is a fact, an established unchanging truth or 'reality' or 'satyam' or 'nityam'.

Cognition is the process of thot that helps Mr.A in understanding that the shop is indeed 110m away. In this process of understanding, he does away with his assumption, and looks up the map or book (or scriptures) that have established the distance as 110m. Hence, this section that scripture is a greater force than perception: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48007.htm

Another option in this process of understanding is that he need not look up the scriptures, he himself (with struggle ofcourse), can measure and find out that indeed the shop is 110m away, not 100m as he always had been assuming.

When he finally does establish that the shop is truly 110m away, he is said to have reached a 'logical' conclusion.

The process of cognitive thot is the one that helps in establishing "logic" or "logical truth". This is what our revered hindu logicians did. They established 'truths' as well as means to connect with the divine, and made the path easier for others to travel.

Now you might ask, who was the one who established the distance as 110m in the first place and why that cannot be proved as wrong and why it cannot be changed? That established fact of being 110m, my friend, came about by an extensive and intensive process determined by a series of functions, to finally become established referencing.

However, it wud suffice to say that, that too is certainly not based on perception or individual perception or judgement or assumption. It is also important to note that metric "conversions" can exist but any system themselves again do not change what "actually exists as satyam".

This, too was handled by hindu logicians. They called it the unchanging brahman. No matter which path one takes, from a simple prayer to an elaborate ritual to withdrawing within oneself, everything is from brahman and to brahman.

Such blessed souls those hindu logicians were, to be able to do what they did. The more we read, the more we are amazed. And they did not produce just a few works, but several methods, philosophies.... Their work was not an assumption or perception at all. They established that an "unchanging truth" exists. That is why we call them saints. Without "that connect with the brahman", cud they have done what they did?
 
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malgova.mango

Active member
sv - you mean manga becomes thengai ?
with proper effort - a thengai is available for edibility

please read atma-bodha by BP a lot of book on this is available by various ashramic schools.

without ego - we are like jadam. chetanam s possible only becase of ego.

do you know who is the devata for ego?

regards
 
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sapr333

Guest
Seshadri, let me share this paradox,so that you will understand the importance of my previous post.

consider a situation, in which a father and his son are driving down the road. The car collides with a tree and the father is killed. The boy is rushed to the nearest hospital where he is prepared for emergency surgery. On entering the surgery suite, the surgeon says, "I can't operate on this boy. He's my son."

To define "Perception' here, Its what we feel/Perceive/or even Judge thinks based upon what all our senses are earlier, tuned/set/exposed to. For eg, we tend to say,that based upon our reading sense, that, the Ghost-Surgeon is not supposed to surgery on his own son/relative..(Perception based on Ghost/reincarnation/Surgical ethics)

Logic tells us,that, Surgeon can be both male/female, and the one on operating theatre is the boys mother..
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
please read atma-bodha by BP a lot of book on this is available by various ashramic schools.

without ego - we are like jadam. chetanam s possible only becase of ego.

do you know who is the devata for ego?

regards

intelligent ego (of self-enquiry) is the one that helps a man to drop the unintelligent ego (or ego with things associated with the outer self) and move towards the inner self.

whenever one says drop the ego it automatically means drop the unintelligent ego.

Just found this: Selected Verses of Yoga Vashista: http://www.sageramana.org/files/Yoga Vasishtha Sara.pdf

It talks of ego stained by ignorance. Prayer is ofcourse to remove the lower ego or the unintelligent ego.
 
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s007bala

Guest
vedas

We know how to perform the Nachiketa sacrifice, which is the bridge for sacrificers; and we know also that supreme, imperishable Brahman, which is sought by those who wish to cross over to the shore where there is no fear.

Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part One, Chapter III, 2

Know the atman=self, to be the master =of the chariot; the body=, chariot; the intellect, the charioteer; and the mind, the reins.

Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part One, Chapter III, 3

The senses=indriyas, they say, are the horses; the objects, the roads. The wise call the atman-united with the body, the senses and the mind-the enjoyer.

Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part One, Chapter III, 4

If the buddhi=intellect, being related to a mind that is always distracted, loses its discriminations, then the senses become uncontrolled, like the vicious horses of a charioteer.

Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part One, Chapter III, 5

But if the buddhi, being related to a mind that is always restrained, possesses discrimination, then the senses come under control, like the good horses of a charioteer.

Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part One, Chapter III, 6

sb
 
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s007bala

Guest
re

(1)the post is nice bala, (2)but what has it got to do with logic and perception.

the post is nice,bala=comprehension of vedas,but acknowledgement goes to bala,as bala is the poster.

but what has it got to do with logic and perception=happy hindus 'sirra arivu' 'atma vicharam'!=logic and perception.

sb
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Assumption is the likes of supposition or guess

While Perception is the likes of insight or awareness

Well we can get these from synonyms in MS word :)

The MS thesaurus shows many other words also.. assumption is a premise, a conclusion whereas a perception is discernment arising from observation... hope you agree with this...


Let's go back to some things i had been reflecting and asking:

However, would it not be a way of judging in itself when we try to discriminate the line between duty and witness state?

Could you give an example please...

The only way I seem to understand is drop the ego and everything else will fall in place.

Perception, assumption and judgement are not due to ego... Ego is a feeling of the self which arises as a natural combination of the senses, body and athma... the overlapping layer of the mind and the senses is the intellect, which does the discriminatory function...

Now how to drop the ego? Only then can I or we be like the old man in your story.

either the overlapping intellect has to be controlled or the effect of the senses have to be repelled... this is not for dropping the ego, rather to maintain composure in the event of any happening..
Regards,
 
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