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KAnchi ParamAchArya satsangham-2

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(continued from the thread:

I came to show that the words pitA, guru are used to refer to the same AsAmi--(Tam)man. To call pitA guru is loka-vyavahAram--worldly practice. In contrast, I showed from the upaniShads how shiShyas--the great men who themselves individually held the guru-sthAnam--position of guru-- held their guru as their real father.

Elders like Kambar are those who observed the vaidika aupaniShada sampradAyam--tradition of the Vedas and UpaniShads, and taught the abhiprAya--opinions of the Vedas and UpaniShads in their Tamizh books.

• The opinion that we were look at--that the father who gave birth is only for namesake, the real father is one who brings up the boy in good shape--Kambar has mentioned it in relation to shrI RAmachandra-mUrti.

• Sage VishvAmitra took RAma who was yuva--young, to king Janaka's rAja sadas--royal court, in order to tie the string of the dhanuSh--bow, introduces RAma to Janaka. At that time he starts from the greatness of the sUrya-vaMsha--SUrya clan (in which RAma was born).

• Starting from SUrya who started the clan, he proceeds to speak of the greatness of all the successors--Manu, BRutu, IkShavAku, Kakutstha, MAndhAta, Shibi, BhagIratha, Raghu--ends with the greatness of Dasharatha and then says that RAma is the son born out of the purtra-kAmeShTi yAgam performed by Dasharatha.

• It is here that he comes to the point we were discussing: "The four brothers starting with RAma are the sons of Dasharatha for only namesake"--'புதல்வர் என்னும் பெயரே காண்!
•--pudalvar ennum peyarE kAN!', but then one who brought them up and shaped them is only sage VasiShTha--'உபநயன விதி முடித்து மறை ஓதுவித்து வளர்த்தோன் வசிட்டன் காண்!--upa~nayana vidhi muDithtu maRai Oduvithtu vaLarthtOn vasiTTan kAN!'--Thus has Kambar sung about the speech of sage VishvAmitra.

The quote in question from Kambar is:

744. புதல்வரின் வேத முதலிய கலைப்பயிற்சி
’திறையோடும் அரசு இறைஞ்சும்
செறி கழல் கால் தசரதனாம்
பொறையோடும் தொடர் மனத்தான்
புதல்வர் எனும் பெயரே காண்?
உறை ஓடும் நெடு வேலாய்!
உபநயன விதி முடித்து,
மறை ஓதுவித்து, இவரை
வளர்த்தானும் வசிட்டன் காண்.’ 1.11.24
---கம்பராமாயணம், பாலகாண்டம், குலமுறை கிளத்து படலம்.

<lang=eng>744.<-lang> pudalvarin vEda mudaliya kalaippayiRci
'tiRaiyODum arasu iRai~jchum
cheRi kazhal kAl dasarathanAm
poRaiyODum toDar manathtAn
pudalvar enum peyarE kAN?
uRai ODum ~neDu vElAy!
upa~nayana vidhi muDithtu,
maRai Oduvittu, ivarai
vaLarttAnum vasiTTan kAN.' <lang=eng>1.11.24<-lang>
---kambarAmAyaNam, bAlakANDam, kulamuRai kiLathtu paThalam.



Well-known member
• It is here that he comes to the point we were discussing: "The four brothers starting with RAma are the sons of Dasharatha for only namesake"

I was just wondering if the definition "Namesake Father" has a deeper meaning.

I have read before that embryo of ordinary mortals are Jalodakashayi..enveloped in watery stuff where else embryo of an avatar takes no genetic material from their fathers and are known as Kshirodakashayi..enveloped in pure milk of holiness..in other words Avatars are clones of God and hence their earth fathers are just Namesake Fathers.

After all Lord Rama and his brothers were conceived after the payasam was given to the queens and Dasharatha had no role in impregnating anyone of the queens.

Just a thought.
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Well-known member
namaste smt. RENukA.

Thanks for sharing this information about the births of mortals and avatars. I wonder if what Kambar wrote is in vAlmIki rAmAyaNam or he deviated with his fertile dharmic imagination.


Well-known member
pitRuvaMsham as guruvaMsham

The appA--(Tam)father, who bestows the mortal janma--birth also becoming the guru who graces with immortal janma--(laughing) father to 'some extent' and as father to the 'fullest extent'--we see this happening right from the ancient times.

• Going as a chain in this way, there has been instances where the father-son vaMshAvalI--lineage also became the guru-shiShya vaMshAvalI .

• [Those of us who are smArtha--in the tradition of dharma texts] Our brahma-vidyA paramparA--uninterrupted succession, is only such, going up to the first five or six people.

• In this sampradAyam--tradition, NArAyaNa is the first guru. As to who became the next guru, it was only his son BrahmA.

• Taking that BrahmA as guru, one who holds the next position is sage VasiShTha. He was only brahma-putra--BrahmA's son.

• Next to him was his son Shakti. And the next was ParAshara son of Shakti mahaRShi.

• After ParAshara were VyAsAchArya, putra--son of ParAshara, and pautra--grandson Suka. Until him our guru paramparA has shaped as father-son becoming gurus in succession.

• The change was only from Suka who was a naiShThika brahmAchAin--lifelong bachelor. From his giving-upadesham--teaching, the ascetic GauDapAda, Govinda BhagavadpAda after GauDapAda, and our AchAryAL (Adi Shankara after him), and his saMnyAsa shiShyas--ascetic disciples, and then the maThAlaya adhipatis--pontiffs of MaThams that came in their paribhAvanam--contemplation, union. Thus it happened that the guru is an ascetic and the disciple is also an ascetic.

• The RShi-vaMshas--succession of Vedic RShis, in general was not only a succession of father-son, but also the vidyA sampradAya paramparAs where those father-sons were guru-shiShyas as well.

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