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Is the Community digging its own grave

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sarang

Well-known member
Weeds need frequent removal, but they grow again in patches. BBs take a break and vanish for a while but return regurgitating archived stuff.

Earlier it was the belief that weeds must be removed for the healthy of plants and protecting their feed. But modern theory is to let the weeds grow and perish, as they feed on different types of nutrients rejected by the healthy plant.

So both can coexist in the same field; plants sustain the society, weeds decay and become manure.
 

sangom

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;201081 said:
The petty chieftains, if they lost in war to bigger kingdoms and were enslaved, they got classified as Shudras. Otherwise, they acquired and retained the status of Kshatriyas. This was what I had always maintained. So as you see it is because of the fact that they were enslaved they got classified as shudras and not the other way around. This enslavement existed in tamilakam before the "invading" Aryan armies has been my point.

Anyways, you guys quote exceptions when it suits you. Otherwise dismiss them as exceptions. About vELaLars I will write separately.

I cannot say about ancient or CangkakAla Tamizhakam. But a captured enemy king is not reported in available history as always demoted as Shudras; I also doubt whether the term Shudra or its equivalent existed in those early days in Tamizhakam, and perhaps it was slave class then.

What I am talking about is the situation after the Aryan or vedic social stratification became accepted in the south also. Hope the position is clear now.
 

tks

Well-known member
A reflection:

In an open forum people tend to display an online persona that may be different from what they may be in real life. A forum can also promote playing of 'Games' (as defined by Dr Eric Berne) in many different threads by various participants. There are good and bad games depending on the impact they may have on forum visitors. It is actually amusing to observe such games from a distance since this is a unique characteristics of human beings. Observing others may make us sense the games we ourselves may be playing.

In the end people come to a forum for exchange of ideas, spend time engaged in debates and just have fun even while being outraged at a poster for the way they display their online persona.

Those that provide other points of views or even engage in seemingly extreme views actually make the forum come alive. The best way to respond in my view is to "attack" with facts, reasons and overall logic on the views presented. Sometimes the attack may get directed at individuals which can create silly game playing or withdrawal of someone (which may not be fun) in the end.

It is refreshing to read posts of new members who seem to be deep thinkers even if I may not always agree with their specific points of view.

Let us "hit" with facts and reasons but be easy on the persons who are posting their views :)
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Ravi you know what you are.
If I call you that name I will be banned, so I am not going to call you that. In addition to being young you are ..........


I called for a truce not a surrender, but then again you are not capable of understanding that.

Prasad, the same is the case much much better with you, as many members in recent past have helped you to know your self better as what you are. If I call you by that name, no doubt, I will be banned too. In addition to you being old and presumed to be matured your are....................

Neither I have any compulsion to heed to your truce nor I am fighting a Kargil like cold blooded war here with the opposite camp. As a member, I have my right to keep registering my voice with out resorting to personal insults on others as the quickest way to satisfy once ego and arrogance.
 
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C RAVI

Well-known member
Ravi you know what you are.
If I call you that name I will be banned, so I am not going to call you that. In addition to being young you are ..........

I called for a truce not a surrender, but then again you are not capable of understanding that.


Dear Mr.Praveen,

Kindly clarify if Prasad has been appointed by you as an authority to instruct / command / order as a police here to control the members from posting their views/counter views? And as such, IF he has the liberty and privileges to take such a spot shot on a member if he finds a member not heeding to his requests?

The tone of the above post that reflects the poster's leadership and arrogance gives an impression that he is either the appointed agent here to carry out the policing job or he is a defacto owner of this Site.

Kindly clarify so that we can do our best to adhere to the rules of the game here.

Thank you.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Dear Shri Prasad,

I have read all the posts after last night. You tried to broker a truce. But now you can see the venom and hatred which is being spewed by our Brahminist friends against those who they perceive as Brahmin Bashers.

It is relevant in this connection to mention that till some time ago, I was also against IC/IR marriages and Shri Kunjuppu and myself have had heated discussions on this point also. But slowly I have come to understand the thought processes and feelings of girls (daughters) born and brought up in our so-called orthodox tabra families who claim in some fashion or the other, that they are holding the ancient "brahmin culture" burning bright. I do not want to elaborate because I am sure it will lead to another bout of nasty posts here. But now I am somewhat sure that more and more tabra girls will select non-tabra boys, insist on marrying that boy, and eventually compel, like an animal trainer, their parents to fall in line.

My only point was that we should become aware of this new trend and that there is no point in holding on to some imagined "ancient brahmin culture" and its magnificence - though the people appearing as most concerned about this, in this forum, may not even know the meaning of one full mantra or sloka correctly, nor even the sandhyavandanam, samidaadhaanam, oupaasanam, vaisvadevam, etc., which are compulsory brahmin daily routines - about which our tabra parents are unable to convince even their own daughters once they get exposed to the outside world; else, they might themselves be IC/IR married or progeny of such marriages and trying to hide their origins.

The most pernicious and venomous was the performance of vaagmi, the new entrant about whose sudden appearance I have my own theory. I have nothing more to say and am prepared to quit this thread, but with the warning that within foreseeable future all this talk of protecting brahmin culture, culture modified brahmin genes etc., will completely vanish.

If we want to maintain a group which will identify itself, at least reluctantly, as brahmin or tamil brahmin, better we try to be "inclusive", i.e., accept IC/IR marriages whenever and wherever they happen and bring those offsprings also under the umbrella of brahmins. If we fail to do that, we will perish.

This is not the first time this problem is discussed in this forum. I give the following as my epilogue:

“It would pain me and, of course, it would pain others, if I should treat fully of all the makeshifts and devices whereby the Brahmanas of today attempt to preserve their totally undeserved claim for ‘spiritual superiority.’ Now that India is really awakening to a New Age, it will be well for my Brahmana countrymen if they voluntarily relinquish all their old pretensions together with the silly and anti-national customs based on such pretensions, and lead the way for the establishment of liberty, equality and fraternity among the Indians.”

Subramania Bharati’s letter to the editor of New India, May 11, 1915.


Now our Brahminist group can attack Subramania Bharati's soul, if they can and want to do so.

Adieu!!
 
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vgane

Well-known member
1. Without getting into mutual acrimony into the past posts of Sangom, I liked one suggestion put forth by him for Tambrhm couples to go for minimum 3 child norm in case they can financially afford ...For this the entire family has to support...It is worth a try

2. I would like to add that a typical TamBrahm marriage happens when the girl is of 25 years and the boy is between 28-30 years...Preponing marriage by 3-5 years will also help them as our boys are financially independent within 2-3 years of getting a job...ie by 25 years the boy is well settled & can go for a family

3. Every family who has 3 or more children should consider the option of sending 1 child to a religious matam or Hindu organisation (may be Ramakrishna Math or Swamy Chinmayanandha Math) to inculcate /imbibe Hindu traditions/values & culture

4. We should dialogue with our grown up children that they should atleast marry into a Brahmin family (If they are not agreeing for Marriage in the traditional manner)

5. In the case of Marwari families, in case the boy marries Inter caste, then he is not given a penny from the estate by the Parents...This is another Financial deterrent for the children...This is another suggestion that we can consider
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
Sangom's post #626:

It is relevant in this connection to mention that till some time ago, I was also against IC/IR marriages and Shri Kunjuppu and myself have had heated discussions on this point also. But slowly I have come to understand the thought processes and feelings of girls (daughters) born and brought up in our so-called orthodox tabra families who claim in some fashion or the other, that they are holding the ancient "brahmin culture" burning bright. I do not want to elaborate because I am sure it will lead to another bout of nasty posts here. But now I am somewhat sure that more and more tabra girls will select non-tabra boys, insist on marrying that boy, and eventually compel, like an animal trainer, their parents to fall in line.

The thought processes that were understood by you were given by you in 10 points earlier and it was shown that those perceptions were either wrong or were wrongly interpreted by you. You even went to the extent of saying that there is a seething discontent among the TB girls and they are all virtually on the point of raising a revolt banner. The members here know that there is no such thing in the community. Those who go and insist on the Ic/IR marriages are all girls who are either immature or ill-advised. Even if they go that way it will just be good riddance. The community will that much be better off. There is no use wailing over the departure of such stupid girls.

My only point was that we should become aware of this new trend and that there is no point in holding on to some imagined "ancient brahmin culture" and its magnificence - though the people most concerned about this may not even know the meaning of one full mantra or sloka correctly, nor even the sandhyavandanam, samidaadhaanam, oupaasanam, vaisvadevam, etc., which are compulsory brahmin daily routines - about which our tabra parents are unable to convince even their own daughters once they get exposed to the outside world.

This trend has been in existence for many years and not something new. Because these IC/IR marriages just happen, there is no need to accept them as good. The community should always treat such marriages as second rated ones. Accepting them as equal to or better than SC/SR marriages will be the death knell for the community. Brahmin boys who do not know sandhyavandanam, samithadanam, oupaasanam, vaiswadeyam etc., need not feel hopelessly lost. It is enough if they keep the faith that these are not meaningless rituals, that these are pregnant with meaning etc., When the years pass they will find time to go for them again and rediscover the good in them. It would be ideal if TB parents spend a lot of time in conversation with their children about our faith and its systems along with other worldly matters like movies, fashion, money, job, investments, future etc.,

The most pernicious and venomous was the performance of vaagmi, the new entrant about whose sudden appearance I have my own theory. I have nothing more to say and am prepared to quit this thread, but with the warning that within foreseeable future all this talk of protecting brahmin culture, culture modified brahmin genes etc., will completely vanish.

Please do not theorize too much. You have already ended up in many knots. You will be adding to you confusion further. Talk of all these may stop when the need for it stops. But the culture, culture modified genes will be there for ever. Until perhaps the next pralaya. So your fond wish or curse(?) may not affect the brahmin culture or the genes.

If we want to maintain a group which will identify itself, at least reluctantly, as brahmin or tamil brahmin, better we try to be "inclusive", i.e., accept IC/IR marriages whenever and wherever they happen and bring those offsprings also under the umbrella of brahmins. If we fail to do that, we will perish.

These are things that just happen. There is no need for a seal of approval for them. When you insist on that seal of approval you are asking for the community to crawl. The next step will be for the community to do a harakiri and disappear.

This is not the first time this problem is discussed in this forum. I give the following as my epilogue:
“It would pain me and, of course, it would pain others, if I should treat fully of all the makeshifts and devices whereby the Brahmanas of today attempt to preserve their totally undeserved claim for ‘spiritual superiority.’ Now that India is really awakening to a New Age, it will be well for my Brahmana countrymen if they voluntarily relinquish all their old pretensions together with the silly and anti-national customs based on such pretensions, and lead the way for the establishment of liberty, equality and fraternity among the Indians.”
Subramania Bharati’s letter to the editor of New India, May 11, 1915.
I have a lot of respect for Bharathi for his spirit of freedom, his poetic skills of language, and his relentless fight against the british raj. But he was also an unfortunate poor soul which could not come to terms with itself. Thus it went looking for mind expansion with psychotropic substances and became hooked to these substances for a long time. The result was a very awakened soul inside a poorly maintained body. So I take some of his words with a liberal pinch of salt. In this quoted para, he starts with a wrong presumption and uses the terms liberty, equality and fraternity in a archaic cliche. A separate discussion will be needed to sort out what exactly he is talking about. It is certainly not what you think you have understood.

Thanks.
 
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vgane

Well-known member
Vaagmiji, Saragji, Zebraji, kbji, and Raviji &
Sangomji, Naraji, and kunjuji

Can we call it as a draw ans a truce? Please at least on this subject.

Naraji proposed a solution for the the dwindling TB community to preserve their traditions.
Let us practice it.
None of us can do it all. After all the efforts just accept the results.

Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana - You have the right to perform your actions,but you are not entitled to the fruits of the actions.Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani – Do not let the fruit be the purpose of your actions, and therefore you won’t be attached to not doing your duty.

How simple and how relevant even today.I think if Bhagavadgeetha is universally renowned as the jewel of India's spiritual wisdom , its because of Karma Yoga.You rarely find spiritual books/Gurus laying emphasis on doing your work.
Thats exactly what Krishna says here.Always do your best without expecting the results and you will be happy.

Dear Shri Prasad,

As I read your post, my thoughts are as follows:

Have we reached the End of the discussions?

Or is this the Beginning?

May be we have reached the End of the Beginning!

There is much more to discuss...Let us not abruptly close this
 

sangom

Well-known member
1. Without getting into mutual acrimony into the past posts of Sangom, I liked one suggestion put forth by him for Tambrhm couples to go for minimum 3 child norm in case they can financially afford ...For this the entire family has to support...It is worth a try

2. I would like to add that a typical TamBrahm marriage happens when the girl is of 25 years and the boy is between 28-30 years...Preponing marriage by 3-5 years will also help them as our boys are financially independent within 2-3 years of getting a job...ie by 25 years the boy is well settled & can go for a family

3. Every family who has 3 or more children should consider the option of sending 1 child to a religious matam or Hindu organisation (may be Ramakrishna Math or Swamy Chinmayanandha Math) to inculcate /imbibe Hindu traditions/values & culture

4. We should dialogue with our grown up children that they should atleast marry into a Brahmin family (If they are not agreeing for Marriage in the traditional manner)

5. In the case of Marwari families, in case the boy marries Inter caste, then he is not given a penny from the estate by the Parents...This is another Financial deterrent for the children...This is another suggestion that we can consider

Dear Shri Gane,

First I owe an apology to Shri Prasad for continuing to post under this thread, though I thought this thread had ended and wrote my adieu.

I do not think your suggestions at point 2 and 3 above can be put into practice in the present times. Firstly, just as a boy gets his first good placement by about the age of 23 or 24, the girls also get equally good or even better remunerative jobs at the same age. And if you are tracking today's matrimonial trends, tabra girls put forward many stipulations regarding the boy they will marry which includes a very high salary. The girls are unwilling to relax any of their conditions till they come to 30 years of age, by which time they are able to secure - at least in some cases - a young tabra or other caste man earning as high as they expect. Hence, AFA arranged marriages or marriages through matrimonials are concerned, it is rather rare for tabra girls to get married at 23 to 25 years, or even at 28.

Regarding point #3, it is well-known that the parents of boys and girls in the marriageable age group have practically no solid grounding in our traditional culture, mantras, daily routine and least of all about our scriptures. We tabras have left the brahmin way of life three or four generations ago and have been compromising with it, in order to earn more incomes and to enjoy material comforts as much as possible, in imitation of the Britishers during their rule and, of late, the westerners from both Europe and the US. So, if a couple has 3 sons and one of the sons is sent to the matam/RK mission/Chinmaya Mission, that boy's future will irretrievably be compromised and this will have lethal effects in the very tabra family system within the next generation (say, 25 years) itself. It is therefore impractical and dangerous to even consider this suggestion.

Secondly, all these Mutts etc., do keep the young children engaged for a few hours, but even today, none of them have devised any workable model in which the doubts and questions of these young intellects/minds can be answered rationally so that these youngsters get really convinced that the religious lore, legends, etc., which are taught to them in these Missions, has the same level of credibility as the matters of science and current affairs taught in their schools. The result has been that many such youngsters from Tabra families turn completely antithetical to religion itself during their late teen years and go irreligious by the time they go to college hostels and then secure jobs in India or abroad. I have two such youngsters who can possibly convince you that hinduism, brahmin culture, etc., are simply irrelevant to Man. ;)

Point #5: unless it is self-acquired asset/s such a discrimination is unlawful today among any Indian community, including the Marwadis. Same applies to our tabras also. But we are, by and large, unlike the Marwadis. In many tabra families today, the parents are poorer as compared to the children who have gone up financially in spectacular ways thanks to the IT sector. Even the assets of the father/parents is in many cases acquired through the remittances made by the sons/daughters. In that sense there are very few cases of self-acquired assets. And, even if the son or daughter is refused a share of this asset, they may care two hoots because they will be earning in lakhs pm. But there are several tabra parents who will crumble down, unable to maintain their glossy life style if the kids stop sending them moneys.

Hope you will look around more into the lower echelons of tabra society also and find out whether my assessments are factual. Thank you,
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
கால பைரவன்;201096 said:
Dear Prasad,

You may be correct that nothing useful might come out of these discussions on history. It is just that when one often sees selective analysis or twisting of history to demonize our community, it is tough not to respond. It is hard to believe this is being done for the benefit of our community.

I have said this before. I am mostly interested in current affairs only. My worries are just that of common-man brahmin and are of secular issues - corruption, communal discrimination etc. Therefore, I have no problem moving on. However, I have noticed that there is not much interest in this forum to discuss these issues. As you rightly pointed out, some of the members here are comfortably settled abroad and are oblivious to the problems faced by Brahmins in India. That could be one of the reasons. Even if and when these are discussed, the discussions veer down the same path - the blame goes from religion to caste to brahminism to Brahmin. So the truce you have brokered will not last long, unless of course some of us completely shut shop, which could happen in my case at least...

I am with you 100%. I too worry about India, and Indians.
My attempt (failed?) was to call a truce on this subject of Caste based blame game.
I would not want you to "shut Shop", on the contrary I want your input in other threads.
Thank you sir.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Sri Prasadji,

I have written about 10 posts in this thread and almost 8 of them were addressed to Sri Nara and there was absolutely no acrimony in any of them. All the posts were tangential and not much connected with the topic on hand, I admit.

I have never participated in any of IC/IR threads since my joining because i know that ultimately we have to accede to the desire of our child/children and in fact in one of the posts to Sri Nara I had mentioned this. I am reminded of the old tamil song "pettavan maname pittamma, piLLayin maname kallamma"

Yes let us move on to the other topics by all means. Actually my entry into this thread was a sort of obituary after this thread almost died down somewhere in the last week of July, but this thread suddenly developed a life of its own.

Thank you for the conciliatory efforts.

Regards
Thank you sir.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Shri Prasad,



“It would pain me and, of course, it would pain others, if I should treat fully of all the makeshifts and devices whereby the Brahmanas of today attempt to preserve their totally undeserved claim for ‘spiritual superiority.’ Now that India is really awakening to a New Age, it will be well for my Brahmana countrymen if they voluntarily relinquish all their old pretensions together with the silly and anti-national customs based on such pretensions, and lead the way for the establishment of liberty, equality and fraternity among the Indians.”

Subramania Bharati’s letter to the editor of New India, May 11, 1915.



Adieu!!

I am thrilled to be bracketed with such a great luminary.
Please please please do not wish Adieu.
I like to butt head with you on occasion, but admire your knowledge, and contribution to the site.
 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
1. Without getting into mutual acrimony into the past posts of Sangom, I liked one suggestion put forth by him for Tambrhm couples to go for minimum 3 child norm in case they can financially afford ...For this the entire family has to support...It is worth a try

2. I would like to add that a typical TamBrahm marriage happens when the girl is of 25 years and the boy is between 28-30 years...Preponing marriage by 3-5 years will also help them as our boys are financially independent within 2-3 years of getting a job...ie by 25 years the boy is well settled & can go for a family

3. Every family who has 3 or more children should consider the option of sending 1 child to a religious matam or Hindu organisation (may be Ramakrishna Math or Swamy Chinmayanandha Math) to inculcate /imbibe Hindu traditions/values & culture

4. We should dialogue with our grown up children that they should atleast marry into a Brahmin family (If they are not agreeing for Marriage in the traditional manner)

5. In the case of Marwari families, in case the boy marries Inter caste, then he is not given a penny from the estate by the Parents...This is another Financial deterrent for the children...This is another suggestion that we can consider

Sir,
Can I ask you a personal question? How many children do you have? Which child did you send to Matham to study? How is their personal finance?
I do not know, nor do I care about the castes of Marvari families.
I have a feeling that you have not followed any of your suggestions.
Your suggestion will lead to Brahmin family breaking up. If life decision, and financial decision are made on your guideline, family members will end up in court, disputing the will, and no one will even remember you. I am deeply disappointed.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
[video=youtube;LJr6FknZhpM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJr6FknZhpM[/video]

here is kumbaya to all of you and us.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Shri Prasad,

As I read your post, my thoughts are as follows:

Have we reached the End of the discussions?

Or is this the Beginning?

May be we have reached the End of the Beginning!

There is much more to discuss...Let us not abruptly close this

Sir I did not close the thread (I am just a member not the administrator, or moderator). It was a suggestion (now looks like failed) to move on to other topic as this caste blame is not going anywhere.
But seeing the postings in this thread, I have withdrawn my offer of a truce. So please carry on.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
1. Without getting into mutual acrimony into the past posts of Sangom, I liked one suggestion put forth by him for Tambrhm couples to go for minimum 3 child norm in case they can financially afford ...For this the entire family has to support...It is worth a try

2. I would like to add that a typical TamBrahm marriage happens when the girl is of 25 years and the boy is between 28-30 years...Preponing marriage by 3-5 years will also help them as our boys are financially independent within 2-3 years of getting a job...ie by 25 years the boy is well settled & can go for a family

3. Every family who has 3 or more children should consider the option of sending 1 child to a religious matam or Hindu organisation (may be Ramakrishna Math or Swamy Chinmayanandha Math) to inculcate /imbibe Hindu traditions/values & culture

4. We should dialogue with our grown up children that they should atleast marry into a Brahmin family (If they are not agreeing for Marriage in the traditional manner)

5. In the case of Marwari families, in case the boy marries Inter caste, then he is not given a penny from the estate by the Parents...This is another Financial deterrent for the children...This is another suggestion that we can consider

vgane and 2 members who liked it,

did you practise this yourselves or in your family?

i think the ideas are unworkable because they discriminate against the child who is send to a religious school, and also 'excommunicating' is illegal in today's indian hindu law. the law infact says, even if the child converts to another religion, you cannot disown re property inheritance.

i think each one of us, as they face the situations in life, will muddle along to our satisfaction. no standard formula is applicable. any more. atleast that is what i think.
 

praveen

Life is a dream
Staff member
Dear Mr.Praveen,

Kindly clarify if Prasad has been appointed by you as an authority to instruct / command / order as a police here to control the members from posting their views/counter views? And as such, IF he has the liberty and privileges to take such a spot shot on a member if he finds a member not heeding to his requests?

The tone of the above post that reflects the poster's leadership and arrogance gives an impression that he is either the appointed agent here to carry out the policing job or he is a defacto owner of this Site.

Kindly clarify so that we can do our best to adhere to the rules of the game here.

Thank you.

After reading through the posts i am at a loss to understand why this post was made in the first place. There was nothing from Prasad which, even remotely, looked like an "instruction / comman / order" and tried to "control" the other members from posting their views.

Please do not misunderstand the posts and jump to conclusions.

All i can say is the post that i have quoted in this reply is completely a misunderstanding and is not at all warranted for.

We are all adults and we need to act/behave like a grown-up.
 

praveen

Life is a dream
Staff member
To others,

If this thread has served its purpose, please let me know and i will close it.
 
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