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India without the caste system !

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Few years back, there was this tamil movie titled "12B" in which the plot is something like this :

The protagonist, played by Shyam leaves home for an interview and misses the bus, 12 B by a whisker. As he is standing in the bus stop frustrated, the movie maker opens a new thread in the plot in which the hero manages to catch the bus.

The movie then moves on to "compare" the life and times of the hero who misses the bus and the hero who manages to catch the bus.

Moving the plot to the nation, the purpose of this thread is to wonder, just wonder, what India would have been if we didnt have the caste system.

Mind you, i am not making any case for anything, i just want to "crystal gaze" as to how India would have been:societal-ly sociologically, economically, culturally, ethnically, religiously if the caste system was not / is not in vogue.

I repeat the purpose of this thread is not to justify the system or write against the system - many avenues are available for both - but to just share a sketch or a vision of a India different from today's India.

Over to you all !
Dear Sri Hari,

A very imaginative question. India without the Caste system, today would be 'a shining city on the Hill', a beacon to the entire universe, making USA as a wannabe. She would have beaten back all the invasions and the world as we know it would have been mostly Hindu, without India having to invade any foreign land.

How about the world that missed Mohammed and Christ and Marx and Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Polpot and George Bush and India without Gandhi and Nehru and Indira Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi and Tamilnadu without EVR and Annadurai and Kamaraj and Karunanidhi........?!!!
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eh are u referring to ur dream world, where these elements dont exist? well since we are crystal gazing, one such world would have been called Utopia or who knows maybe even Heaven. for one if these elements werent in tamil nadu, we as a tamilians would have more respect and an esteemed place in the indian ethos and there wouldnt be any want for wealth and prosperity. oh yes and no water problem.
since we are adding people on to this list, why not add "dr.ramadoss", and all these new political parties in TN like viduthalai siruthai and such stupidities.
Dear Anand/Hari,

Some anthropological studies might interest you!



Austronesian Quadripartition and the Indian Varna System

By Paul K. Manansala

In 1995, I wrote an article "Austric Influence in the Brahmana and Rishi Traditions," in which I examined the Austric contribution to the formation of the varna, or four caste system, and also to the linked brahmin and rishi (seer) traditions of India.

My view was that the varna system was mainly an indigenous development with major contributions from Dravidian and Austric societies rather than something brought in by Indo-European invaders, which is the more common position in Western scholarship.

The mainstream Western view is that the Aryan invaders or migrants into South Asia retained the Proto-Indo-European system of three classes, conceived by Georges Dumézil as consisting of clerics, warriors and husbandmen/agriculturalists. Upon arriving in India, they supposedly forced those aborigines who adopted their religious system into a fourth lower class known as Sudras. A strong racial component is evident in this theory with some asserting the Sudras were originally slaves and they were darker-skinned than the other three classes composed of the Aryan invaders. According to this theory, these four classes eventually evolved into the four varnas.

To support this theory, it is argued that the supposedly oldest parts of the Rgveda, considered the oldest literary work of India, do not mention the Sudra caste. Sudras though are mentioned in Purusa-sukta section of the book. Also, supporters of this view point out that the Sudras were not considered "twice-born" and worthy of pursuit of Brahman, a mana-like spiritual power or asset.

Here are a few of the main problems with this theory:
  • The Vedas, which supposedly cover the period of Aryan invasion/migration into India do not mention the mass conversion process of aborigines into Sudras or the conversion of the old Indo-European husbandman/agriculturalist class into, presumably, the Vaisya or merchant caste. Such a conversion process would have been messy to say the least. In comparison, latter works mention the adoption of foreigners like the Sakas and Cinas into the caste system.
  • According to present-day mainstream Western views, a relatively small number of Aryan speakers were involved in a migration and elite dominance scenario upon arriving in South Asia. However, how successful could a small number of people be in converting an entire indigenous population into slavery or servitude? More recent history shows that the process of caste assimilation involved introducing people into the brahmin system according to their position and rank in the previous society. Thus, we have Dravidian Brahmins and Dravidian Kshatriyas (warriors) and Yavana brahmins and Yavana Kshatriyas.
  • Neither genetic nor physical anthropology studies support ideas that the upper castes are composed of recent (post-Neolithic) migrants to India or that the Sudra caste is more aboriginal than the upper castes. As caste is determined by patrilineage, the genetic evidence suggests that upper castes consist overwhelmingly of Y chromosome types that have been in India long before the Neolithic. The only male haplogroups that show strong evidence of relatively recent arrival are J haplogroup and O haplogroup, neither of which appear linked with the theory of an Aryan invasion/migration into Northwest India. In most parts of India, forensic science can not reliably distinguish upper castes from sudra castes based on craniofacial or other physical anthropology techniques.
  • The most important aspects of the varna system are not reconstructible to the suggested Proto-Indo-European system.
also see:

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Dear Sri Hari!

I could guess your intent behind starting this thread. I've asked you to mark my words on Utopian ideas. So you started this, hoping to infuriate me. But I kept my cool and started to imagine also...

Let me dream..... the wings started to flapp ....zoom .....I'm flying now.....

It is our inability to deal with complexes that makes us to dream of a life with out any complexes.....

So i started to fly high...

No boundarys between nations so all are citizens of the world...

Soaring still high...

Everyone should be having equal money or one should not work under anyone for money because that in turn produce complexes .......

Soaring high....

It goes .. there are far more complexes between the opposite sexes than Jathis -So like water sea horse everyone should be able to do everything. There should be no difference between sexes - so no complexes....

Soaring high...

Like Vyasa muni - the minute we born we should rapidly attain maturity - so there won't be complexes between parents and children

Soaring still high...

Like animals there shouldn't be any choices for humans he should be pre-programmed, because it is the choice that makes him to choose favourable and un-favourable things which in turn create many complexes.......

Soaring still high......

Everyone should know everthing so that there is no need for education, there by no complex as student and teacher....

Others may try to soar higher , a good game.

India without caste system

1. Would have produced many more scriptures and Literature. Most of the people with Jathi Veri do not want to acknowledge the contribution of Veda Vyasa and Valmiki who were not born Brahmins. It is the later corruption of the system that led to the exclusion of non Brahmins. Imagine how many Veda Vyasas and Valmikis we have missed.

2. We would have more Hindus than now. Most of the conversions to other religions have taken place because of the horrendous Caste system. It continues to take place as the other religions exploit our Achilles heel viz. the caste system.

3. Our Law books like Yagnavalkya Smiriti would have become world famous and the westerners would have copied many of its tenets while drafting their laws.
Dear Sri Hari!

I could guess your intent behind starting this thread. I've asked you to mark my words on Utopian ideas. So you started this, hoping to infuriate me. But I kept my cool and started to imagine also...


Mr MM,

I am really sad that you think that i am out here, to "infuriate" you. Far from it.

I started this thread mainly to wonder what we could have been without the Caste system. Some of the members here have known me for a reasonable length of time. I have hardly ruffled any feathers in the forum.

If you are still unconvinced, i offer my sincere regrets.
Dear Sri Hari!

Please don't be that serious. So what if that's your intention? Even if it is - I'll take it in a sportive way and will not at all be offended. Common that's okay.

Well that's how we get to know about each other. I thoroughly enjoy your sense of humor, of late I miss that. What's bothering you? Why are you dead serious or not at all replying.?

After all aren't we share the same culture in that sense aren't we like one extended family, why can't we be more out-coming and be like brothers and sisters.

If I sound a bit too much , please forgive me.

Dear Hariji,

You are a gentle soul and I testify to that. Perhaps MMji was just teasing you!

The caste proliferation is a colonial curse. The new rulers who are successors to the colonial masters have decided to perpetuate it by bringing in caste based reservations.

Just imagine what would have happened if they remained truly secular and decided to stick to equality of citizens in 1947 and had forsaken thier putrid socialism. We wouldn't be talking about casteism at all after sixty years of independence.

Truth has to be universal. Otherwise logic would be meaningless.

Varnas are universal. That is what the Lord says of his Creation. Some anthropologists have started unearthing this universal phenomenon. The Hindus have recognised this and benefitted from such an understanding. Some people who think that there are 'casteless' societies out there and they are the paradise on earth. Unfortunately such people are living in imaginary world. There is so much of violence out there, believe me! In the 21st century George Bush caused the death of a million Iraqis and made six millions of them refugees in neighbouring countries (and in their own country) and this atrocity is still continuing. He did it all in the name of freedom and democracy! We the Indians are the victims to the expansionist zeal of the Chinese communists whose latest claim is to Himachal Pradesh. What they are doing to their own people who cry for freedom and to the luckless Tibetans whose faith they put down with an iron hand and who have been driven out of their country and are living in many parts of India is a sad fact that is never condemned but glorified by the communists of this country.

The list is too long to pen down.

People who claim that the so called 'casteless' society (factually no such society exists!) would have produced talents - sages is the word - much better than India of our Dharmic system have nothing much to show in proof except their imagination! The stealing of our Veda was started by the Germans and the Yoga and the Ayurveda are the victims of commercialisation in the west. There is an Indian American who packages the Vedanta into a money making enterprise by publishing many books and conducting speaking tours but never does he acknowledge that the real authors are our sages. He is playing safe so as not to rough up the racist bigotry of the westerners!

Western societies have grown by the exploitation of others. Colonialism ruled the roost for about 3 centuries. 'Outsourcing' is an extension of the same principle. The Chinese communists who cried hoarse against the imperialists are the biggest 'beneficiaries' of this trend of outsourcing. They are afraid that India would capture this market and when this threat becomes too real to upset their apple cart you can see fireworks at our borders. Unfortunately our pseudo secular rulers are hobnobbing with the Chinese communist agents in India so as to be secure in their gaddi. Shame!

maybe it is time we stopped calling our people "pseudo-secular" and just call em who they really are. Communists. thats who they are.


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Yes the caste system is the biggest albatross around our culture. but no mistaking it is just not the hindus who are practising it. maybe they are the ones who are slowly getting away from it. if u look it and the latest problems that are happening in cuddalore dist, the other religions have got on to it and practice at a bigger level. but the difference between the hindu caste issues and christian caste issues are given different treatment. thanks to the "secular media". one is looked upon as ancient and cruel in keeping some of the people down, while the other is looked upon as saving the masses and the downtrodden. that is what i think when i see how the issues are covered. may be it is time we had some mainstream media sources that talk about the issues as the see it(factful) instead of trying to appease the minorities. maybe i am not aware of one such source.
caste system

<P>Its another criteria to differentiate people .We do have many in fact.I dont think caste without discrimination is an evil.Its practiced by many and in fact because of its acceptance. It is fashionable and politically correct to deny it.In my school days some will float liberal thoughts.Another guy ( belonging to say X caste) will question those guys 'Will you marry (i have translate it from 'chenthamizh varthai's) girl from y caste? They couldnot reply.They went away with smile.Its just impractical.They cannot antagonize and distance their parents from their relatives.SOmetimes even their parents would oppose it vehemently.So its about people mindset.And its better to allow them to make their choice.India without caste system , well would have battled a long for some other reasons,it may religion,language,color,borders or someother thing.</P>
Dear Fire,

I don't know why people our own people can't see the good values of Jathi system , despite the advantages of it are put foth by "Maha Perieva" - Jagad Guru himself.

Your this reply gives some solace to me.


The response of Sri Nacchinarkiniyan is just that...in tamil...'Nachhunu irundhadhu'. Pardon my flippancy.

My own sense is this :

a. Economically, i think we would have had an India with better distribution of wealth. Apart from ossifying the social structure, the caste system, i think also resulted in consolidating wealth into pockets.

b. Opportunity wise, i think the society would have been more egalitarian.

c. Instead of "islands of excellence" i think we would have an India where "merit is the defacto norm"

d. It would have spelt political doom for the egregious regional, factional politicians.

e. Perhaps India would have resolved some of the pressing international issues. With casteist factionalism raising its ugly head every now and then, i guess, the current political leadership is forced to take its eyes off more pressing issues.

f. There would be less Inter-religious tension. Some portion of this tension has been caused by conversions which again had it's genesis in the caste system.

g. Instead of chest-thumping, phoney nationalism, perhaps we would have true nationalism. There would be less of "To-hell-with-nation-i-need-my-pound-of-flesh-for-my-community" attitude.

h. There would have been no need for the likes of EVR and his cronies so we could have better sense prevailing in the society.

i. People would have less of "You are with me or against me" attitude.

j. Blogs will have less hatred.

Can we think of more ?

PS :

1. Mr MM, Thanks for your understanding. I reiterate infuriating you wasnt part of my scheme of things. My accomplice, for my sense of humour, LQ Sahab is not very active these days and so my SoH has suffered.

2. Mr Saab. I am not as gentle as you think. I can be petulant or rather have been petulant in another forum i write.
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Dear Sri Hari,

I didn't know you could be petulant! Honestly, I don't want to know. I still think you are one of the finest!

By the way Veda Vyasa and Valmiki are Gnanis. According to our sastras Gnanis do not have caste just like sanyasis. Even sanyasis have their own Dharma to follow but Gnanis have transcended all including Dharma. Whatever a Gnani does is considered Dharma.

According to our scriptures all (Yes, ALL) are entitled to Gnana irrespective of the varna they belong to. And in fact many non-Brahmins (perhaps they are many more than Brahmins) have attained Gnana and transcended the varna to which they belonged. If Vyasa and Valmiki just belonged to their varna without attaining Gnana like so many others we would not be talking about them at all. They could write Mahabharatha and Ramayana because they attained Gnana not because they belonged to a varna.

By the way according to our tradition Vyasa was born as Brahmin though his mother was a fisherwoman while Valmiki was born as a non-Brahmin. Vyasa was a born Gnanni (Brahmarishi - he did not spend a full night in the womb of his mother). Valmiki attained Gnana by Rama Japam.
Dear Sri Hari!

See my reply - for your kind consideration

1. Would have produced many more scriptures and Literature. Most of the people with Jathi Veri do not want to acknowledge the contribution of Veda Vyasa and Valmiki who were not born Brahmins. It is the later corruption of the system that led to the exclusion of non Brahmins. Imagine how many Veda Vyasas and Valmikis we have missed.

All those scriptures and literature that India produced is because we have dedicated a varna an entire community for ,tapas, puja, devata worship and vedic reading and propogation. Without this how can we get - a great kambar, a great kalidasa, stalwarts in mathematics, jyotisha shastra, how many poets, how many musicians, how many temples with architectural wonders, how many saints, how many gnanis. No other culture has produced so many. We owe all this to our Jathi system.

Jathi Veri - Must be condemned - Veda doesn't teach us to have any veri - even with god - "aru min aru min asai aru min esanodayinum asai arumin"
But abimana to Svajathi, love to one's identity is a dharma - not to be eschewed.

Without Jathi system - don't dream of Vyasa and Valmiki please. They give Ramayana and Mahabharata - where the heroes followed there sva dharma based on their jathi. For us they are the role model.

Ofcourse any system is subjected to abuse and corruption. Should we not shoulder some responsibilities to correct it.

2. We would have more Hindus than now. Most of the conversions to other religions have taken place because of the horrendous Caste system. It continues to take place as the other religions exploit our Achilles heel viz. the caste system.

Without Jathi system there is no Hinduism, This is the chief hall mark of Sanatana Dharma. An unparalled beauty. Recognising the facts of life. living in the truth, with the truth and by the truth.

Conversion is not because , there is Jathi system.
Please consider...
Many wars between Christians and Muslims, between christians and christians , between muslims and muslims - that's happening, happened, will happen is because of what? - They don't have Jathi system why they try to convert each others by persuasion, money, force -why ?
Even in Buddhism portrayed as a peace loving religion - why are there so many factions? - No jathi system there- But why so many divisions? why so much violence in Srilanka?
It is the play of raw Ichha Sakthi , unrefined Ichha Skathi - just the blind power of "I want".

3. Our Law books like Yagnavalkya Smiriti would have become world famous and the westerners would have copied many of its tenets while drafting their laws.

Without Brahmin culture there is no Yagyavalkya Smriti - Didn't Yagyavalkya Smriti talk about Varna?

It was only Sanatana Dharma in yesteryears be it in west or east , it slowly disappeared in their lands , because for that high order to exist we need a lot of collective punyams - Please read Bhavishya Puranam, Mahaperiva's linguistic analyisis which gives a lot of support to the above believes.

Please understand , I 'm not writing in a mood to argue, but I'm concerned that if we are not going to close ranks and going to argue endlessly on jathi,women rights,animal sacrifice we may lose in our land also. This is my apprehension.

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Dear Sri Hari!

On the "infuriate" remarks - I've guessed it wrong. So lets get over with it .

Without comments:


During his speech, Governor Rajeshwar spoke about
casteism and how it is acting as hindrance to the
progress of the country. He had also come down
heavily on the supersititions like breaking a coconut
on the head etc. He had also lauded the social
reforms of Periyar.

Every society has inequalities, irrespective of caste,
creed or religion. Neither Rajeshwar nor Sonia nor
Karunanidhi or for that matter, anybody, well placed
in life, will ivite a scavenger for a tea in their
drawing room or invite a begger for a birth-day bash,
in a five star hotel. Why? Only Rajeshwar can
answer. Despite casteism and despite practising
superstitions, hindu society had remained an all
embracing one. Muslims, Christians, jews, Parsis etc,
are living comfortably with full freedom. Hindus have
never extinguished the other cultures. They have
never indulged in genocide, arson, looting, raping
etc. Despite all backwardness, our country shines in
the matter of full freedom and democracy. There is no
caste system in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir. But
they remain most backward and hindus in these places
have been subject to genocide, ethnic-cleansing and
conversions. Cuba is a very poor country despite
following Christianity &#150; despite the absence of
casteism and superstititions. Only Rajeshwar can
explain this anamoly. Rajeshwar gives the impression
that all are equal in Christianity and Islam. He has
forgotten about apartheid, racism, Mandela, Luther
King and our own Mahatma Gandhi.
Americans have no superstitions and casteism. But they
nonchalantly killed 10 lac innocent Iraqi muslims
recently. Rajeshwar, it seems, has not read the book
&#145;American Holocause&#148; by Edwar E Stannard &#150; the book
deals with the massacre and ethnic-cleansing of 100
million natives. Perhaps, he has not read Will
Durant, the American historian who has written that
the greatest genocide on earth was the killing of 100
million hindus by the mogul invaders during their rule
of 700 years in India. Islam has no casteism and is
supposedly free from superstitions. Thanks to casteism
and superstitions in Hinduism &#150; they have not done any
barbaric act in the name of religion.

Coming to Periyar &#150; he called tamil, a barbaric
language and tamilians, fools. He was pro-British.
He opposed he quit-India movement. He wanted the
British rule to continue.Had he succeeded, Rajeshwar
would not have become a governor and would not be
sermonizing about the ills of Hinduism. Periyar&#146;s
social movement was so successful that in Tamilnadu,
every activity is done on the basis of caste-only. His
influence was so great, even muslims and Christians
are demanding separate reservation for dalit
Christians, BC Christians, dalit muslims and BC
muslims. And mind you, there is no casteism in
Christianity and islam.

It has become a practice for all secularists to whack
Hinduism and praise Periyar whenever they visit
Chennai &#150; a few examples &#150; UGC chairman Thorat, HRD
Minister Arjun Singh, Mandal King V.P. Singh, to name
a few.

Thanking you,

Yours sincerely

42-4 canal road, thiruvanmilyur,chennai41 20/3/08
u post quite a few interesting tidbits and articles. do u have the links for the web address for the journalists or some kind of email contacts for them? I would be glad to get some info on these people.
Dear Sri Anand,

If they are on the web I do give the link. Otherwise they are correspondences from friends.

If you are thinking of forwarding to friends, just click on the address of the page where you find the article, copy and send.

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20,000 Christians threaten to revert to Hinduism
Friday March 28 2008 10:01 IST P ARUL

VILLUPURAM: Exposing the deep-seated animosities and divisions within the fold, over 20,000 caste Christians of Eraiyur village have threatened to revert to Hinduism unless a seperate parish was provided to the Dalit Christians there.

A parish in Eraiyur village was devastated by violent clashes between two groups a fortnight ago. It all started with the Arch Bishop Antony Anandarayar permitting Dalit Christians to undertake a funeral procession on Church Road, a privilege they have been denied for more than a century. Amidst tight security the procession was taken out.

Protesting against this, the caste Christians have boycotted prayer sessions at the St Rosary Church for the past three days.

Anandarayar assured that none would be discriminated in church on any ground and this has not gone well with the caste Christians who have accused the bishop of not considering the sentiments of the majority. They have also stated that by the decree an age-old custom and tradition has been broken.

Meanwhile, Anandarayar has stated that politics and caste must not be allowed in Christianity and that such instances would affect peace in the village.

The caste Christians have wanted the Arch Diocese to provide a separate Parish to the Dalit Christians, who had set up St Sahaya Madha Church in the Dalit colony.

A total of 20,000 Vanniya Christians have threatened to revert to Hinduism if the Diocese ignores their demand. In this regard a memorandum has been submitted to the District Collector, DRO, RDO and Arch Diocese, Puducherry and Cuddalore.
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