• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Idea of God and Self Discipline

Status
Not open for further replies.

praveen

Life is a dream
Staff member
For a long time i have been intrigued by the concept of God. As Indians, we see god in everything and anything. A piece of paper is Saraswati, Money is Lakshmi, Cow is Lakshmi, A tree is God x, An animal is God y and so on...
This led me to a thought that i have been having for 5-6 years (and even longer).

Is the Idea of God meant to instill a sense of discipline and also appreciate what we have?

As a kid when we grow up, we are forbidden from touching papers with our feet or walk on books/papers. Immediately someone would say, Goddess Saraswati will not give you education or something like that.

If we throw money, then Goddess Lakshmi will not give you money.

If we waste food, bhooma devi will cry in the sea/river..... and so on..

Our linkage of Gods with our daily life seemingly has, in my view, only one purpose. That is, make us understand, appreciate and cherish what we have. Be it money or food or anything else.

So, in the olden days when science was not this advanced, was the idea of God merely a means to control people? Control by either the Kings/Tribal Leaders or by one Community?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer:

  1. This thread is meant to be only for knowledge and informative purposes. There is no other motive involved.
  2. This thread does not delve into (and is not meant to find out) whether god exists or not.
  3. The thread merely analyzes the idea of God and possible reason for evolution of God.
  4. Lastly, if you are going to associate this topic and relate this to how this site is run or what kind of person i am, then it means you simply do not understand things and you are out to cause trouble. If you do link this at any point now or in the future, i suggest that you read the first point in this disclaimer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 

sangom

Well-known member
For a long time i have been intrigued by the concept of God. As Indians, we see god in everything and anything. A piece of paper is Saraswati, Money is Lakshmi, Cow is Lakshmi, A tree is God x, An animal is God y and so on...
This led me to a thought that i have been having for 5-6 years (and even longer).

Is the Idea of God meant to instill a sense of discipline and also appreciate what we have?

As a kid when we grow up, we are forbidden from touching papers with our feet or walk on books/papers. Immediately someone would say, Goddess Saraswati will not give you education or something like that.

If we throw money, then Goddess Lakshmi will not give you money.

If we waste food, bhooma devi will cry in the sea/river..... and so on..

Our linkage of Gods with our daily life seemingly has, in my view, only one purpose. That is, make us understand, appreciate and cherish what we have. Be it money or food or anything else.

So, in the olden days when science was not this advanced, was the idea of God merely a means to control people? Control by either the Kings/Tribal Leaders or by one Community?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer:

  1. This thread is meant to be only for knowledge and informative purposes. There is no other motive involved.
  2. This thread does not delve into (and is not meant to find out) whether god exists or not.
  3. The thread merely analyzes the idea of God and possible reason for evolution of God.
  4. Lastly, if you are going to associate this topic and relate this to how this site is run or what kind of person i am, then it means you simply do not understand things and you are out to cause trouble. If you do link this at any point now or in the future, i suggest that you read the first point in this disclaimer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Shri Praveen,

I don't know whether I am rushing in and that too very very fast. Still, your post prompted me to write what are my considered views.

The idea of god did not start as some eclectic idea. It was to bring people under the temporal jurisdiction and control of an authority, a king, most of the times. The priests provided the necessary link between god, the most supreme power on earth and heaven, and the temporal authority, the king, who was considered as the divine representative on this earth. I have read that in the Mesopotamian civilization, the priests used to predict eclipses with accuracy and the population was required to bring their most valuable possessions to the ziggurat and donate it so that the sun/moon ultimately came out of the grasp of the eclipse and the earth and its inhabitants could live safely...till the next eclipse!

It was the priests who alone were allowed into the ziggurats and they are said to have divided the donations among themselves and with the king.

I cannot say about the abrahamic religions but, in so far as hinduism is concerned, the many 'dos and don'ts', like those which you have cited, have not come directly from the scriptures, imho. While some or many of those might be traceable to stories in puranas, the rest have been formulated by our elders in order to imbue good habits with a certain religious hue so that children will have the "fear of god" instilled into them for compliance.

The concept of god in its general position in hindu religion, can be attributed to the many natural forces and phenomena, like fire, strong winds, rain, lightning & thunder, etc. These forces were imagined to be separate devas under the control of their leader Indra. That was in the rigveda, the earlist scriptural text in the world possibly. From that our beliefs have changed a lot more complicated and now god has become............an addiction, not belief or even faith!
 

Yamaka

New member
"So, in the olden days when science was not this advanced, was the idea of God merely a means to control people? Control by either the Kings/Tribal Leaders or by one Community?" - Praveen in the OP.

Dear Praveen and Others:

Yes. This IDEA of God was the brainchild of some powerful, very verbally and mentally bombastic MEN who "conspired" to control people, period.

I believe now in this early 21st Century when Science Engineering & Technology has given us so much to enrich our lives, we need NOT accept this IDEA of GOD anymore.

Therefore, I submit, let's reject

IDEA of God
Power of Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans and the Mother of All Hoax
The Concept of Janma Poorva Karma!

Cheers.



 
Last edited:

happyhindu

Well-known member
My take is like this.

In days when there was no electricity, the discovery of fire must have been viewed with great respect or awe. Starting from here, or maybe much earlier than this, early man must have viewed elements of nature as 'powerful' and hence 'sacred'.

Till date, with all the technology available to us, we still cannot fight the might of incessant rain, tsunamis, floods, jungle fires, cyclones, etc.

Maybe early man realised life supports life, hence 'forms of life' like air and water, support human life. Maybe he also realised that life destroys life, so 'forms of life' like air and water out of human control, fire, etc, destroys life.

Maybe in the transition stage from elemental to anthropomorphic, he linked the 'spirits' of these powerful, sacred elements to human forms, as human representatives, and venerated them, to provide for a safe stay when alive and safe passage upon death.

I find it hard to imagine a 'god' in human form as a creator of the human race or of the universe. Instead i feel men and women realised 'secrets' of life and thus became 'god or 'discovered the god in them'. I venerate all of these Gods and Godesses as gurus and souls, as path shiners.

I do beleive in an 'energy', and subscribe to the idea of an 'intelligent design'. However, this 'intelligent design' is not the judeo-christian concept of a creator god. Instead it is a systemic representation of 'time' and 'energy' that enables non-random evolutionary paths in certain ways.

In other words, i feel, the world is verily a cosmic representation, subject to the random vagaries of time in terms of creation, preservation and destruction, which one (if he wishes to) may call Brahma, Narayana, Shiva.

No doubt early humans represented everything that creates, sustains, and destroys life as something linked to 'spirits', including the souls of men and women who protected their survival. But to me, these 'spirits' are just human constructs of instincts.

Early man pursued to realise the origin of these instints, the origins of thoughts, the origin of life, and ended up creating myriad constructs which came to constitute what we call 'religion'.

I also believe in rebirth, karma, and an entity called 'soul'. But am sorry am not able to explain why.

Perhaps the idea of God does instill in us self-discipline, and helps us appreciate what we have.

Some people say one must give up the idea of god. But instead of that, i prefer to explore God.

Maybe the biological explanation that 'god' is in our design, is true. The human mind makes us believe there is something called god. So instead of giving up the sense of god, maybe its a better idea to live with it...its all upto each individual how he/she wishes to explore...

Regards.
 
Last edited:

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri Praveen Ji,

IMO, the idea of GOD was not 'invented' by some folks to control others. It did not start as a 'political' ploy. If it were so, priests would not have had such power over the rulers as it happened in ancient cultures.

It probably started as a way to explain all the calamities and the natural world that the ancient man encountered. I would recommend either the book or the DVD series by one Professor Joseph Campbell titled 'Power of Myth'. You will more or less understand the concept of God from various cultures.

In Hinduism, we have developed a very intricate system of segmenting the roles of Paramatma based broadly on a Hindu's life pattern: Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. So, one will pray to Paramatma in the image of Lakshmi if one is in one's Artha period. The belief is that, one is in touch with Paramathma, by worshipping Goddess Lakshmi.

Also we all mature differently during our lifetimes on our spirituality, and some of us may not go beyond any of the four stages mentioned. Thus we have myriad Gods and Goddesses, to address our need to be connected to Paramatma, but based on our spiritual capacity.

One can say that if you are looking at the utility of Paramatma to YOU as a reason for discipline, then you can appreciate the role of Hinduism at this stage of your spiritual development. That is how I would explain it.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
KRS
 

prasad1

Well-known member
It depends on your definition of the concept of GOd.
In Buddhism there is no reference to God as an Abrahamic God.
The non-adherence to the notion of an omnipotent creator deity or a prime mover is seen by many as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions. In Buddhism the sole aim of spiritual practice is the complete alleviation of stress in samsara, called nirvana. The Buddha neither denies nor accepts a creator, denies endorsing any views on creation and states that questions on the origin of the world are worthless.

So even without God you could have a strong moral values system. So I contend that God was not created just for moral values alone. The concept of God is based on the fact that there is cause for every effect. We see the effect "sansara" there has to be a cause, and that cause is called God.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
The concept of God is based on the fact that there is cause for every effect. We see the effect "sansara" there has to be a cause, and that cause is called God.
If the cause is God, why did God create the cause? Or vice-versa?
 
OP
OP
praveen

praveen

Life is a dream
Staff member
I cannot say about the abrahamic religions but, in so far as hinduism is concerned, the many 'dos and don'ts', like those which you have cited, have not come directly from the scriptures, imho. While some or many of those might be traceable to stories in puranas, the rest have been formulated by our elders in order to imbue good habits with a certain religious hue so that children will have the "fear of god" instilled into them for compliance.

The concept of god in its general position in hindu religion, can be attributed to the many natural forces and phenomena, like fire, strong winds, rain, lightning & thunder, etc. These forces were imagined to be separate devas under the control of their leader Indra. That was in the rigveda, the earlist scriptural text in the world possibly. From that our beliefs have changed a lot more complicated and now god has become............an addiction, not belief or even faith!

Sangomji,

Where i am curious is, how these stories came into the puranas. without smoke there is no fire, likewise without something that would have happened, these stories may not have been planted in the puranas. Again, is it "fear of god" or is it "fear of priests/kings" that forced us to look at god in everything.

maybe the priest/king would have said, if you dont do/fear/respect , lets say, rain then varuna bhagavan will get angry and so on... Did this "fear" concept arise out of any specific reason?

for example, if someone said people in chennai started respecting the sea after Tsunami then it makes sense. that is, to be fearful and be respectful of the sea as it almost destroyed them.

Do we have any such events/stories that possibly could have instilled a sense of fear and respect?



Yes. This IDEA of God was the brainchild of some powerful, very verbally and mentally bombastic MEN who "conspired" to control people, period.
I believe now in this early 21st Century when Science Engineering & Technology has given us so much to enrich our lives, we need NOT accept this IDEA of GOD anymore.
Therefore, I submit, let's reject
IDEA of God
Power of Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans and the Mother of All Hoax
The Concept of Janma Poorva Karma!
Cheers.


Yamakaji,

My views on god have been made public in a different thread. While i do share your views, i am curious to know more. I am sure our ancestors had a reason. Whether it is science or Alien to planet earth, the fact is God is all around us whether we like to believe so or not. What makes God such a powerful entity? Is it our projection of our innermost fear?


Maybe early man realised life supports life, hence 'forms of life' like air and water, support human life. Maybe he also realised that life destroys life, so 'forms of life' like air and water out of human control, fire, etc, destroys life. Maybe in the transition stage from elemental to anthropomorphic, he linked the 'spirits' of these powerful, sacred elements to human forms, as human representatives, and venerated them, to provide for a safe stay when alive and safe passage upon death.

I find it hard to imagine a 'god' in human form as a creator of the human race or of the universe.

I do beleive in an 'energy', and subscribe to the idea of an 'intelligent design'. However, this 'intelligent design' is not the judeo-christian concept of a creator god. Instead it is a systemic representation of 'time' and 'energy' that enables non-random evolutionary paths in certain ways.

I also believe in rebirth, karma, and an entity called 'soul'. But am sorry am not able to explain why. Perhaps the idea of God does instill in us self-discipline, and helps us appreciate what we have.
Maybe the biological explanation that 'god' is in our design, is true. The human mind makes us believe there is something called god. So instead of giving up the sense of god, maybe its a better idea to live with it...its all upto each individual how he/she wishes to explore...

Regards.

HHji,

A few years ago while i was in england, i had a friend who was based in Sweden and had access to almost everything in terms of books/research papers etc. He was doing a research, out of personal interest, on Extraterrestrial life, aliens etc... He concluded his paper by stating that based on data available to him, that Humans are refugees in this planet. More like prisoners who have dumped here from some other planet.

What he said made sense in the fact that it is quite impossible to accept that Humans evolved frm Monkeys and we are the last of the evolutionary creature (as per a program in discovery channel). our search for aliens is vastly limited to what we know and what we perceive is "truth". Programs like SETI search based on a set assumptions like a defined frequency/signal/pattern etc...
By limiting our thinking to defined patterns we are shielding ourselves from the others where life could probably exist.

What if the vanara's who helped King Rama were not actually monkeys and were someone else? What if King Rama was not human? if i am right, he did travel in a flying craft. What if the hanuman was an ET? How do we know for sure they are what the puranas say they are?


It probably started as a way to explain all the calamities and the natural world that the ancient man encountered. I would recommend either the book or the DVD series by one Professor Joseph Campbell titled 'Power of Myth'. You will more or less understand the concept of God from various cultures.

In Hinduism, we have developed a very intricate system of segmenting the roles of Paramatma based broadly on a Hindu's life pattern: Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. So, one will pray to Paramatma in the image of Lakshmi if one is in one's Artha period. The belief is that, one is in touch with Paramathma, by worshipping Goddess Lakshmi.

Also we all mature differently during our lifetimes on our spirituality, and some of us may not go beyond any of the four stages mentioned. Thus we have myriad Gods and Goddesses, to address our need to be connected to Paramatma, but based on our spiritual capacity.

One can say that if you are looking at the utility of Paramatma to YOU as a reason for discipline, then you can appreciate the role of Hinduism at this stage of your spiritual development. That is how I would explain it.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
KRS

KRSji,
I will take a look at the book and get it soon.
Also we all mature differently during our lifetimes on our spirituality,
Absolutely. I for one would not have been talking about this 5 yrs ago. As time passed, i found myself curious. Not because i found god or faith, but because it has been bothering me for so long that i decided to search for an answer that my scientific mind would accept.

Whether my search find an answer or not, i am not worried. Atleast i can be sure that i did try to find an answer.

It depends on your definition of the concept of GOd.
In Buddhism there is no reference to God as an Abrahamic God.
The non-adherence to the notion of an omnipotent creator deity or a prime mover is seen by many as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions. In Buddhism the sole aim of spiritual practice is the complete alleviation of stress in samsara, called nirvana. The Buddha neither denies nor accepts a creator, denies endorsing any views on creation and states that questions on the origin of the world are worthless.

So even without God you could have a strong moral values system. So I contend that God was not created just for moral values alone. The concept of God is based on the fact that there is cause for every effect. We see the effect "sansara" there has to be a cause, and that cause is called God.

Prasadji,

Yes, God is not required to have a strong moral values system. Can the cause for "God" be defined as our inability to understand certain things? Things that science is yet to prove? What happens after science has proved it?
 

sarang

Well-known member
A small book supplement comes with the sunday times of india. Last page of the booklet carries answers given by celebrities for about dozen questions. For the question on 'religion', majority say that they are spiritual and believe in a higher force. I remember, ravi venkatesan (a tambram) former chief of microsoft, india, said that he believes in supernatural force and has immense faith in prayer and recites samskrit slokas.

Very few can think in abstract terms. Our religion embellishes the abstract with identifiable gunas. Both believer and non believer will eventually get what they deserve and what they yearned for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Thank you for visiting TamilBrahmins.com

You seem to have an Ad Blocker on.

We depend on advertising to keep our content free for you. Please consider whitelisting us in your ad blocker so that we can continue to provide the content you have come here to enjoy.

Alternatively, consider upgrading your account to enjoy an ad-free experience along with numerous other benefits. To upgrade your account, please visit the account upgrades page

You can also donate financially if you can. Please Click Here on how you can do that.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks