Hypocracy,reservations and varnashrama

[goundamani]

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I cannot understand the logic of people wanting to uphold varna dharma as well as being an anti-reservationist.How can you be both?

True adherers of varnashrama should actually welcome reservations.First of all, all the jobs availaible are english education based and thus are based upon anti-vedic milecha education system.And 95% to 100% of the jobs which are availaible under reservation were traditionally reserved for sudhras and backward castes by manu.People who want to uphold varnadharma should not ask for a single seat in english education system for their kith and kin.

People who qualify to be anti-reservationists are the people who want to come out of varna dharma.People who want to throw away their varna only qualify to speak about anti-reservations.

If people want to bring back varnashrama and at the same time if they are anti-reservationists,it means that they are hypocrites.

 

[KRS]

Dear goundamani,

People who talk about Varna Dharma do not understand that as a system, it is surely on death bed or dead already.

Varna Dharma can only work if ALL the four Varnas go back to doing their respective Dharmas as ordained by our scriptures.

This means, the Brahmins need to give up making money through ordinary jobs, settle back in their 'Kula' villages, and start doing what the Brahmins did as prescribed.

This means, the Kshatriyas need to give up their current jobs and go back to protecting other Varnas from the enemies.

This means the Vaisyas creating wealth for the wellfare of other Varnas.

This also means the Sudhras going back to doing the jobs involving manual labour ascribed to them.

And ofcourse we will still have the 'touchy' issue of what to do with the 'untouchables'.

Tell me please, who is willing to go back? If one who talks about Varna can come up with the solution as to how to resolve this modern day problem, then I am more than willing to listen.

Varna Dharma had a particular purpose and worked in the old days where life revolved around one's own village and the Hindu society there. It is actually of no relevance today, till we put the 'genie' of modernization back in the bottle again.

So, let us not confuse Varna Dharma, with today's issues with casteism.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[goundamani]

Dear KRS

That was a wonderful reply.When it comes to varnashrama,unfortunately many people still have a frog in the well attitude thinking as if they can 'bring back the golden age'(whatever that means)

Such mentality will never bring any good neither to hinduism,nor to the society.Hinduism as a religion should go forward,not backward.It should be a guiding light for the rest of humanity.It should offer prosperity and peace to the oppressed segments in society.People should be proud to be hindus.People should identify themselves as hindus,indians and not by their caste or varna or jathi.

From your writings, I see that you have all the qualities to be a noble mahan.My salutations to you.

 

[Jaishankar]

Dear Goundamani,

Reservation as claimed by the government is based on the fact that there is varnasrama dharma that is the backbone of Hinduism. I do not subscribe to reservation policy on many counts one of which is that it is meddling with the Hindu religion and I have seen that you concurred that the government has no right to interfere in religion if it claims to be secular and in that case it has to keep equality of all citizens sacrosant.

There is dichotomy in your arguments that on the one hand you are opposed to govt. doing business on the basis of their one-sided view on Hinduism and on the other you would support the reservation that keeps the jobs away from the reach of Brahmins quoting Manu at your convenience just as the govt. does. I do not know if you really talk for the Brahmins in this forum and of course you can but be honest to admit that you are anti-Brahmin.

And Mr. KRS, where do you get the idea that Brahmins have to remain in villages and do what you call 'kula' dharma? Do you mean to say that there had never been cities in ancient India and if you admit there were, then Brahmins never lived in the cities and if they did live in the cities did they lose their varna as Brahmins? Have you ever heard of Parasurama or Drona and many others in our scriptures who did not nevessarily what you call 'kula' dharma and they were never probscribed from being Brahmins just as you might very much want it?

Please don't bring unnecessary arguments to help the secularist defrauders of the Indian society.

 

[MrJustice]

Some people have the narrow and selfish mentality of advocating progression for EVERYONE except a few, pray tell me how or why this is fair?Where is the frog in the well attitude here?
I will agree that caste is a negative identifier, but without shackles it can still be an identifier. Its happening everywhere in India except in TN.

Dear Goundamani, no one wants to go back to the "golden age" (wherever you got that from), but that progression means the whole population steps forward together not a few pushing the others back.
This is exactly what the DMK government is doing, its trying to suffocate every vestige of Brahminism. Why arent you directing your ire about the ills in our society by targeting its primary instigator?

I have no intention of going back to performing poojas in temples, yet I am not willing to leave my roots.Integration means squat if you have to sacrifice your identity IMO, secondly tell me how many others are truly willing to do just this? All castes mind you.
BTW just for your information NOT all Brahmins were priests, there were numerous administrators and divans . So shall we stake claim to start ruling TN now?That line of argumentation i.e. going back to varna dharma holds no water at all, it also irrational.
Brahmins have always been at the forefront of integration, just read your history you'll see , Bharathi for starters was one.Most Brahmins do identify themselves to the larger population as just Hindus, yet its the oppressive society that demands to know caste and creed.First change that then attempt to change anything else.

My point is we should progress together, not selectively.

 

[KRS]

And Mr. KRS, where do you get the idea that Brahmins have to remain in villages and do what you call 'kula' dharma? Do you mean to say that there had never been cities in ancient India and if you admit there were, then Brahmins never lived in the cities and if they did live in the cities did they lose their varna as Brahmins? Have you ever heard of Parasurama or Drona and many others in our scriptures who did not nevessarily what you call 'kula' dharma and they were never probscribed from being Brahmins just as you might very much want it?

Please don't bring unnecessary arguments to help the secularist defrauders of the Indian society.

Dear Jaishankar,

Let me humbly point out that the words 'Varna Dharma' is used here and people are citing it to either argue for or against this subject. In this respect it is very useful to clarify the term and so in that sense it is not an 'unnecessary argument'.

Yes, there were so called cities and people lived in them. The only difference was that they were bigger than the villages. So if were born there, it is still your 'kula' place. You still did all the daily Dharmas as prescribed. I don't see any dissonance here.

As Maha Periaval Hinself said - I am Paraphrasing - 'the examples of Drona and the like are exceptions and should not be taken to be applied to common folks. Those are very rare.'

How does examining our history in logical, reverent and purposeful way help the so called 'secularists?'. By the way, I am a 'Secularist', in the sense that I want the majority rule with minority protections. I want the same law applied to everyone. I am against vote bank politics. And above all, I am against the Government interfering with any aspects of our Religions.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear KRS

That was a wonderful reply.When it comes to varnashrama,unfortunately many people still have a frog in the well attitude thinking as if they can 'bring back the golden age'(whatever that means)

Such mentality will never bring any good neither to hinduism,nor to the society.Hinduism as a religion should go forward,not backward.It should be a guiding light for the rest of humanity.It should offer prosperity and peace to the oppressed segments in society.People should be proud to be hindus.People should identify themselves as hindus,indians and not by their caste or varna or jathi.

From your writings, I see that you have all the qualities to be a noble mahan.My salutations to you.

Dear Goundamani,

Thank you for your kind words. But I am not even close to being anywhere near a 'good' soul, let alone being a Mahan.

I think, everyone has the right to celebrate their birth connections - no one is saying that if someone does not want to they have to be forced to abandon their castes. But, because the society is advancing in the ways our Rishis' predicted during Kali Yuga, things will change. The whole world will become one caste. Modernization and Globalization will bring in these changes.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[silverfox]

Der friends:
When I joined this Forum and was participating in the discussions whether castes should go or not, I was of the opinion that all castes should be abolished - simply for the reason that some castes were manipulating and oppressing the lower castes. However, I must say I have begun to see the enlightenment!! While I still hold the view that ALL castes are equal and that we MUST NOT discriminate anybody based on a particular caste, I could see the advantages of keeping the caste you are from because the particular traditions, distinct culture, etc., are something one must be proud of. There is absolutely nothing wrong in being proud of your caste. Problem arises when you go around telling other people that you are superior to others!
My compliments to Sri Anbu, Goundamani, KRS, Kudumi, JaiShankar, Kabali, MrJustice. All of you have contributed to this Forum which has helped me personally to learn and appreciate different things. Thank you to all of you!
I apologize if I have left out some other noble soul who also has contributed to this thread!

 

[goundamani]

Dear silver fox

Thanks.I am very happy that debates in this forum are highly civilized and matured.I hope that this forum attains it objectives.

While I still hold the view that ALL castes are equal and that we MUST NOT discriminate anybody based on a particular caste, I could see the advantages of keeping the caste you are from because the particular traditions, distinct culture, etc., are something one must be proud of. There is absolutely nothing wrong in being proud of your caste. Problem arises when you go around telling other people that you are superior to others!

while it is understandable that castes which are higher in the varnashrama hierarchy can be proud that they belong to their caste,the castes which are lower in varna hierarchy cannot proudly say "I am proud to be a thotti, banghi, sandalan, pulaiyan, pallan, paraiyan" etc.

while castes in upper level of varna can be proud of their culture,what culture can sudhras be proud of?What is their culture?Eating dead cows and drinking liqour and beef?

Abraham lincon once said "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy."

There upon I concluded: As I would not be a sudhra so I would not be a shathriya,vaisya or bhramana.(courtesy ali sina).

sudhra=dasan=slave.

 

[silverfox]

Dear Goundamani:
Perhaps I did not articulate as well as Sri Anbu or some other member has opined. Certainly by any extent, I am not implying that we go around trumpeting about the greatness of our caste; based on what I have read from other members, it is ok to come out and say that you belong to a certain caste, .... only if the occasion arises. More importantly, it is good for all of us within our community to get together on cyberspace, discuss issues, help out less fortunate brothern, etc.
I hope you get the drift of where I am going with this.

you know you mentioned about lower caste people cleaning the toilet, etc. I read an article by Francis Gautier that Brahmins are cleaning toilets in New Delhi, pulling rickshaws in Varanasi. So... it gets very complicated ... it is not just black and white issue...

I am sure we all would like to see this casteism just go away. But I doubt it is going to happen during my lifetime!

 

[goundamani]

Dear silverfox,

I understand that brahmins as an oppressed community should come forward to fight against oppression.When people attack brahmins because of their caste, there is nothing wrong in saying "yes,I am a brahmin" to fight against such injustice.If that motivates oppressed brahmins to unite to fight against injustice,I welcome it.

 

[KRS]

Dear Goundamani,

I agree with your sentiments as well as Silverfox's assessment on casteism. Change will only come when people change in their hearts. We can hopefully keep on putting valid arguments based of truth and human decency out there and hopefully that will act as a catalyst to change the hearts. But, I think it will take generations.

Pranams,
KRS