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how some namboori chekkans are solving their problems re finding a spouse

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saidevo

Well-known member
Would this mean that the Namboothiri boys would still be following their strict religious rigours with their NB wives, with the wives becoming brahmins in effect in the process, or the boys giving up the rigours altogether?
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
Would this mean that the Namboothiri boys would still be following their strict religious rigours with their NB wives, with the wives becoming brahmins in effect in the process, or the boys giving up the rigours altogether?

sai,

i think the answers to your queries are in the article.

yes, the girls are willing spouses to be a namboodri wife. i bow before these ladies. and the gentsl.

quite a different tune, from the breast beating, abuse of the tambram girls and their parents, that we find among the parents of tambram boys these days. no?
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
There is nothing new in Namboothiri boys marrying girls from other communities. This has been an approved custom followed by the Namboothiri Community, since a long time.

"[SIZE=-1] Marriage within the Namboothiri community, supported by rituals in the traditional manner, is considered as Namboothiri marriage. Marriage of Namboothiri boy with a girl from another caste, is "Sambandham", which is considered as just a casual relationship. No such name has been given to the marriage between a Namboothiri girl and boy from another caste.[/SIZE]" ([SIZE=-1]Namboothiri Websites),[/SIZE]

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
i was impressed when i read this article. maybe this is happening among tambrams too? without much ado?

Going beyond the rulebook | Namboothiri priests | brides | The New Indian Express
Haindava Keralam produced this - Haindava Keralam - global community of dedicated Hindu Keralites with a peace mission

It seems the brides are from orphanages (an orphanage named mahila mandiram) and are willing to live life as the wife of a namboodiri priest. The link says:

While the girls from Namboothiri families are unwilling to take on a spiritual life, the boys are not willing to marry girls from other communities. “That would mean having to accept a whole family into their fold. Whereas in the case of a girl from an orphanage, the involvement of the family can be avoided. This is why they prefer to marry girls from our Mahila Mandiram,” said Subair. However, the Brahmin community as such has no qualms about their boys getting brides from orphanages...
 

sangom

Well-known member
From the links given by Kunjuppu and Happyhindu, it looks to me that these marriages are not the "Sambandhams" of olden days in which the girls remained in their own (family) houses and considered the Sambandham with a Namboodiri as a matter of prestige. Thereason for preferring the orphanages is also clear from HH's reference.

In sum, I feel the once highly conservative Namboodiris have been quicker to find out the current realities of their society and invent a viable way out for their young men, whereas Tabras still behave like adamant children crying for the Moon or the lame fellow trying to get the beehive high above, even without a pole to help. Thanks to Kunjuppu for forwarding the link.

I have now three Tabra boys who have married rather low caste girls, all with parental approval; one is a nair girl from a very poor family and the second case is of a girl who is goldsmith (thaTTAn) by caste; the third is of a low caste and the boy is a poojari in a temple. In the second case the fil and mil are long dead while in the other two cases the griping, old, typical TB mils are giving very good certificates to the dils. So much so, in the second case the rather difficult mil prefers the nair dil to stay with and avoids the other TB dil from her own extended family ;)

It is therefore worthwhile for Tabras to consider taking girls from other hindu communities as dil, imho, if they are found otherwise suitable. As for the Gothram changing ritual I feel this portion of the ceremony can be eliminated in such cases.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
B,

i too think these namboori relations are formal marriages per hindu act. not sambanthams, which ceased to officially exist, with the passing away of the marumakka thaayam tradition of the nairs.

i wish these boys very well in life. it looks like when the parties concerned are interested in making a go of it, anything is possible.

sangom, i have a nair friend married to a kottayam christian. his mother prefers to stay with the christian dil anyday over the nair dil. maybe, those girls who come from other caste, just work a little harder to please? i suppose so.

sangom, yes, we can learn a lesson here. if we get rid of our hangups, atleast our pool for chosing girls will increase. folks here and outside, without prospects, can now look forward to having some solid choices. all it does, is for a few to break the chain. .and then the flood will follow.

my gut feeling!!
 

asananth

New member
It is time Brahmin Priests reevaluate their role. It is loosing its relevance. The rituals are conducted with out the person for whom the rituals are conducted being aware what all this signifies or understanding the mantras being recited. Cermonies have become mere formalities with out any sanctity. People generally look down upon the priests and believe by paying him they can persuade the priests to be flexible to meet their requirements.

This is sad because these priests undergo rigorous training and studies as tough as may be the training in Military and they do acquire invaluable knowledge which is however unintelligible to the layman. May be the priests need to relook at the rituals and modify to suit the present times and even have the mantras translated in to different languages like Tamil,Telugu,Malayalam so that both the rituals and the mantras become meaningful to the layman. Everything has to change with time and evolve if it has to survive.

Have a nice day
 

sangom

Well-known member
So even if they are meat eater's they will be Nambudiri's? :S Confused.

Shri Iyer, Anyone who spends a sufficiently long time abroad, has to come to some compromise with non-veg food. One of my distant paternal cousins (daayaati) who went to Japan, Germany, etc., years ago claimed that he managed with rice cooked by him (as a senior govt. official he used to get an apartment or room with pantry, I suppose) and the puliyodarai and similar "mix" varieties he used to diligently take with him. Since he is a confirmed Tabra who spend more time doing paaraayanam and reciting mantras etc., during the day than all other items, I tend to believe his words. But his daughter in IT who has gone abroad does not subscribe that much to the vegetarian cult.

In fact another young IT couple, my close relatives, said that they found it almost impossible to get any vegetarian stuff in Sweden and the lesser towns in Germany where they had to work for months together. The wife was close to becoming sick due to malnourishment but they averted catastrophe by driving regularly to the large towns, eating in one of the Indian/Pakistani/Srilankan hotels; the husband was/is not very fastidious about V but when he can afford he prefers V only since that is how he has been brought up.

Namboodiris are more broadminded and less influenced by religion and less fastidious about many things which TBs fret about, though their elders are preservers of a hoary vedic tradition, back home in Kerala.
 

sangom

Well-known member
It is time Brahmin Priests reevaluate their role. It is loosing its relevance. The rituals are conducted with out the person for whom the rituals are conducted being aware what all this signifies or understanding the mantras being recited. Cermonies have become mere formalities with out any sanctity. People generally look down upon the priests and believe by paying him they can persuade the priests to be flexible to meet their requirements.

This is sad because these priests undergo rigorous training and studies as tough as may be the training in Military and they do acquire invaluable knowledge which is however unintelligible to the layman. May be the priests need to relook at the rituals and modify to suit the present times and even have the mantras translated in to different languages like Tamil,Telugu,Malayalam so that both the rituals and the mantras become meaningful to the layman. Everything has to

change with time and evolve if it has to survive.

Have a nice day

Brahmin priests or purohits are in a bind today, so to say. Though they study in some vedapaathasaala for many years, they only accumulate a lot of things to be disgorged by rote; they do not "learn" much and thus not much of knowledge imo. Comparing this to military training is absurd, to put it mildly.Since the brahmin today is a privilege or label acquired because of birth (to brahmin parents) it is not that all these purohits or vaadhyaars are innately interested in the
priestly occupation and that is why we find today that many among them have avocations and make lakhs and lakhs through those auxiliary activities (such as share market, real estate, hotels, etc., etc.) Such people have no real, sincere involvement in maintaining the rites and rituals in good form.

The successful (financially) purohits are looked at with awe, they are not looked down upon, by people. But what they disgorge is not really understood even by most of these purohits imo; put them some searching questions and then you will see how they fumble. Because their knowledge and/or training is only to make them robots they are unable to do anything in the direction of reforming the rites and rituals. The orthodox tabras will look to their favourite maṭhaṃs for such reforms but these mathams are quite nervous and unsure of whether their following will desert them if they support such reforms. And then there are the schisms and sects, and each of these has one (or more) maṭhaṃs which are the virtual last word for their devotees/followers. And there is as yet no unity among these maṭhaṃs; swami Dayananda saraswathi of Anakkatti, Coimbatore tried to have a common unifying forum but its only convention held a few years ago was attended by a few less-known swamijis of Maharashtra. (Decades ago at the time GOI was planning to enact the Hindu Code Bill, the senior Kanchi Acharya Shri CSS, tried his best to convene a meeting of all hindu religious heads in Delhi; though thousands of mathams, acharyas and Swamijis were traced and invited, only less than 5 attended the venue and these were from Assam, Nepal and Lahore. That will speak for the religious heads' unity in hinduism.
Compare this with the organised approach among the clergy/ulama in Christianity and Islam, and we will know how weak our hindu religion is and once we realize that we will be able to have a new point of view on proselytisation, temples being controlled by Govt. and many other topics on which there is a lot of breast-beating among tabras.

It is therefore for the grihastas within tabras themselves to think and bring about reforms in the rites and rituals, imho. Fortunately, our priesthood today is extremely pliable and will be ready to accept any reasonable changes as the grihastas desire. But if we miss this there is no point in complaining against the priests perhaps to show off how religious we are or want to be.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
It is time Brahmin Priests reevaluate their role. It is loosing its relevance. The rituals are conducted with out the person for whom the rituals are conducted being aware what all this signifies or understanding the mantras being recited. Cermonies have become mere formalities with out any sanctity. People generally look down upon the priests and believe by paying him they can persuade the priests to be flexible to meet their requirements.

This is sad because these priests undergo rigorous training and studies as tough as may be the training in Military and they do acquire invaluable knowledge which is however unintelligible to the layman. May be the priests need to relook at the rituals and modify to suit the present times and even have the mantras translated in to different languages like Tamil,Telugu,Malayalam so that both the rituals and the mantras become meaningful to the layman. Everything has to change with time and evolve if it has to survive.

Have a nice day


Dear Sri Ananth,

Yes, Ceremonies have become just formalities, but literal meaning of the word Ceremony is "observance of formalities". However I find changes do take place. In Karnataka, nowadays, it is common to see the priests elaborating the significance of the ritual in Kannada before performing the ceremony, especially in marriages.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 

sangom

Well-known member
The following is a message posted in another Brahmin Forum and this was sent to me by e-mail fwd by a friend of mine with a request that I post it in this Forum.

"Re: Namboothiri grooms turn to orphanages for brides!

The News item re: Namboothri grooms turning to Orphanages for seeking brides smells "foul" ~ indeed tragic and extremely pathetic! Similar scarcity of brides is facing Brahmin community in Tamil Nadu of bridegrooms in the age range of 27~45, who are seeking but with "seemingly no takers" particularly those earning less than Rs. 50,000 a month ~ the girls' parents take on that is that it costs Rs. 45,000/= per month to rent mediocre a half way decent flat in Velachaeri with a one year down payment in security deposit ~ so what is our daughter going to do with such paltry income to support the family, when it comes to having children, admitting them into Kindergarten ~ paying a sumptuous donation of a lakh or two lakhs for admission ~ in the mean time, Brahmin parents of these grooms are bleeding internally, being unsuccessful ~ trying to get their sons married! with no end in sight ~ and many of the parents are passing away, with their cherished "dreams" of getting their sons married, remaining unfulfilled! The situation is truly alarming!

Brahmin Parents in Tamil Nadu will be forced to seek unorthodox ways and means of seeking brides, such as from Orphanages, as the Namboodiris from the adjoining State of Kerala, from other Varnas in North India, including U.P. Bihar, and Nepal ~ by paying a dowry to "bring home a bride" (virtually buying these brides), unto Never B4 Married bridegrooms seeking Previously Married, Legally Separated women, without an issue, or with issues, marrying women who are widows, women who are not attractive enough, short, obese and from poverty levels unheard of before that their earning potential of Rs. 50,000 looks very handsome indeed, and from other Brahmin communities like "Gurukkal", Viswakarma Brahmins , because Brahmin brides are courting more and more men from their work place, other varnas in matrimony, that they come into interaction and interplay at work, with parents of brides having no control over their daughters' doings! Parents of these Brahmin brides are saying we would like to see our daughter "married happy ever after"! Brahmin brides are in great demand by other communities like Chettiars, Pillai, Nadar and other communities.

I know of at last one situation where a Brahmin vaadhiyar earning Rs. 35,000 per month in Madurai with his own single story house, has not been able to attract a bride to marry him in more than 9 years. My London-base colleague Siva tells me there is a Vaadhiyar in U.K. earning 35,000 pounds sterling a year, who has been making summer trips to India from U.K. in hopes of getting married, with obviously "no takers" for him for many years now! This Vaadhiyar was seemingly joking that "Vadama Iyer brides prefer to court and marry an auto~rikshaw driver and/or a PCO operator/business owner, much better than the Vaadhyar community earning 35,000 pounds sterling a year in U.K. One Nallaan Chakravarthi Priest workking in T.T. Devasthanam with reportedly "good income' and lots of properties in Tirupati has been advertising in "The Hindu" Sunday editions seeking brides for himself, for 6 weeks NOW, with obviously "no takers"! How are these Priests and Vaadhiyars going to complete the cycle of Grahasthashrama in their life time?!

The situation is bound to get worse over the next 50 years, before it gets any better forcing Brahmin community to near extinction.

As it is, I hear that many of the Brahmin vaadhiyars, temple priests, astrologers, even brahmin boys earning upto Rs. 50,000/= a month and those Brahmin boys living away from the Precincts of Chennai, Hyderabad, Bangalore, such as in outlying areas like Madurai, Trichi, Trichi, Coimbatore, Nagercoil, Vridhachalam, Trivandrum, are NO longer attracting brides to marry them to come and live in thee suburbs, because all of the brides are wanting to marry boys in Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, where there are plenty of job opportunities for them to make a lakh or a lakh-and-a-half per month, easily.

I shudder to imagine what might befall our Brahmin community in another 30 years! May God help us from Brahminism and Brahmin community from becoming extinct through marriages!"
 

subbudu1

New member
I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views
Who is Responsible for the Decay of Varna Dharma? from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:
The Brahmin relinquished the duties of his birth-the study of the Vedas and performance of the rites laid down in the Vedic tradition. He left his birthplace, the village, for the town. He cropped his hair and started dressing in European style. Giving up the Vedas, he took to the Mundane learning of the West. He fell to the lure of jobs offered by his white master and aped him in dress, manners and attitudes. He threw to the winds the noble dharma he had inherited from the Vedic seers through his forefathers and abandoned all for a mess of pottage. He was drawn to everything Western, science, life-style, entertainment.
The canonical texts have it that the Brahmin must have no love for money, that he must not accumulate wealth. So long as he followed his dharma, as prescribed by the sastras, and so long as he chanted the Vedas and performed sacrifices, he brought good to the world, and all other castes respected him and treated him with affection. In fact they looked upon him as a guide and model.
Others now observed how the Brahmin changed, how his life-style had become different with all its glitter and show and how he went about with all the pretence of having risen on the scale of civilization. The Brahmin had been an ideal for them in all that is noble, but how he strayed from the path of dharma; and following his example they too gave up their traditional vocations that had brought them happiness and contentment, and left their native village to settle in towns. Like the Brahmin they became keen to learn English and secure jobs in the government.
For thousands of years the Brahmin had been engaged in Atmic pursuit and intellectual work. In the beginning all his mental faculties were employed for the welfare of society and not in the least for his own selfish advancement. Because of this very spirit of self-sacrifice, his intelligence became sharp like a razor constantly kept honed. Now the welfare of society is no longer the goal of his efforts and his intelligence has naturally dimmed due to this selfishness and interest in things worldly. He had been blessed with a bright intellect and he had the grace of the Lord to carry out the duties of his birth. Now, after forsaking his dharma, it is natural that his intellectual keenness should become blunted.
Due to sheer momentum the bicycle keeps going some distance even after you stop pedalling. Similarly, though the Brahmin seeks knowledge of mundane subjects instead of inner light, he retains yet a little intellectual brightness as a result of the "pedalling" done by his forefathers. It is because of this that he has been able to achieve remarkable progress in Western learning also. He has acquired expert knowledge in the practices of the West, in its law and its industries. Indeed he has gained such insights into these subjects and mastered their finer points so remarkably well that he can give lessons to the white man himself in them.
A question that arises in this context is how Vedic studies which had not suffered much even during Muslim rule received a severe set-back with the advent of the European. One reason is the impact of the new sciences and the machines that came with the white man. Granted that many a truth was revealed through these sciences- and this was all to the good up to a point. But we must remember that the knowledge of a subject per se is one thing and how we use it in practice ins another.
Up till now all members of society had their hereditary jobs to do and they did not have to worry about their livelihood. Now, with the example of the Brahmin before them, members of other castes also gave up their traditional occupations for the jobs made available by the British in the banks, railways, collectorates, etc. With the introduction of machinery our handicrafts fell into decay and many of our artisans had to look for other means of livelihood. In the absence of any demarcation in the matter of work and workers, there arose competition for jobs for the first time in the country. It was a disastrous development and it generated jealousy, ill-will, disputes and a host of other evils among people who had hitherto lived in harmony.
As if to exacerbate this ill-will, the Brahmin took one more disastrous step. On the one hand he gave up the dharma of his caste and joined hands with the British in condemning the old order by branching it a barbarous one in which one man exploited another. But, on the other hand, though he spoke the language of equality, he kept aloof from other castes thinking himself to be superior to them. If in the past he had not mixed physically with members of other castes, it did not mean that he had placed himself on a high pedestal. we must remember that there was a reason for his not coming into physical contact with other castes. There have to be differences between the jatis based on food, work and surroundings. The photographer needs a dark room to develop his films. To shoot a film, on the contrary, powerful lights are needed. Those who work in a factory canteen have to scrupulously clean; but those who dust machinery wear soiled clothes. This does not mean that the waiter in a canteen is superior to the factory hand who dusts machines. The man who takes the utmost care to keep himself intellectually bright, without any thought of himself, observes fasts, while the soldier, who has to be strong and tough, eats meat.
With urbanization and industrialization it becomes necessary for people belonging to various jatis to work together on the same shift, sit together in the same canteen to eat the same kind of food. The Brahmin for whom it is obligatory to observe fasts and vows and to perform various rites was now seen to be no different from others. Office and college timings were a hindrance to the carrying out of these rites. So the Brahmin threw them to the winds. He had so far taken care to perform these rites with the good of others in mind. Like a trustee, he had protected dharma for the sake of society and made its fruits available to all.
All that belonged to the past. Now the Brahmin came forward proclaiming that all were equal and that he was one with the rest. All the same he became the cause of heart-burning among others and -ironically enough- in becoming one with them he also competed with them for jobs. That apart, though he talked of equality, he still thought himself to be superior to others, in spite of the fact that he was not a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties. Was this not enough to earn him more hatred?

I concur with the below opinion
It is my decided opinion that the Brahmin is responsible for the ruin of Hindu society.

The argument of those who have found an excuse for the conduct of latter days Brahmins goes thus. "Brahmins ceased to receive gifts from rulers after the inception of British rule. How can you expect them to live without any income? Force of circumstances made them to English education and thereafter too seek jobs with the government. It is unjust to find fault with them on that score. "
There is possibly some force in this argument but it does not fully justify the change that has come over Brahmins. Before the British, the Moghuls ruled us and before them a succession of sultanates. During these periods a few pandits must have found a place in the darbar. But all other Brahmins adhered to their dharma, did they not, without any support from any other ruler? The phenomenon of the Brahmin quarter becoming deserted, the village being ruined, all pathasala (the Vedic school) becoming forlorn and the lands(granted to Brahmins)turning into mere certificates is not more than a hundred years old. Did not Vedic dharma flourish until a generation ago?

Today you see hundreds of Vedic schools deserted. There are few Brahmin boys willing too study the scriptures. Who had raised the funds for the Vedic institutions? [In Tamil Nadu] the Nattukottai Nagarattars, Komutti Cettis and Vellalas. The work done by Nagarattars for our temples indeed remarkable. Throughout Tamil Nadu, if they built a temple they also built a Vedic school with the belief that the Vedas constituted the "root" of the temple. This root, they felt, was essential to the living presence of the deity in the temple and for the puja conducted there. Similarly, the big landowners among the Vellalas made lavish donations to the Vedic schools.

I want to know what the orthodox here have to say to this-
If the Brahmin had not been tempted by the European life-style and if he were willing to live austerely according to the dictates of the sastras, other castes would have come forward to help him. It is not that the others deserted him. He himself ran away from his dharma, from his agrahara, from his village and from the Vedic school because of his new appetite for the life of luxury made possible with the new technology of the West. He forgot his high ideals and paid scant respect of the principle that the body's requirements are not more that what it takes- in physical terms- to help the well-being of the Self. All told the argument that the Brahmin was compelled to abandon his dharma because he was denied his daily bread does not hold water. We cannot but admit that the Brahmin became greedy, that he yearned far more that what he needed for his sustenance.

I cannot help chuckling at this statement below as many orthodox here have been encouraging their children to settle abroad.
Suppose a Brahmin received a salary of Rs1000 in Madras today. If he gets a job in Delhi with double the salary he runs off there. When he goes to Delhi he would abandon totally the dharma he was able to practise at least to a small extent in Madras. Later, if he were offered $4000 a month in America he would leave his motherland for that country, lured by the prospect t of earning a fortune. There, in the United States, he would became totally alienated from his religion, from his dharma, from all his money. The Brahmin is willing to do anything, go to any extent, for the sake of money. Fort instance, he would join the army if there were the promoter of more income in it. If necessary he would even take to meat and to drinking. The usual excuse trotted out for the Brahmin deserting his dharma does not wash.

Does any orthodox here have the courage to answer the below
will go one step further. Let us suppose that, the following the import of Western technology, other communities also became averse to observing their respective dharmic traditions. Let us also assume that, with their thinking and feelings influenced by the Aryan-Dravidian theory concocted by the English, these castes decided not to support the Brahmins any longer. Let us further assume that to feed himself(for the sake of a handful of rice) the Brahmin had to leave hearth and home and work in an office somewhere far away from his native village. Were he true to his dharma he would tell himself: "I will continue to adhere to my dharma come what may, even at the risk of death". With this resolve he could have made a determined effort to pursue Vedic learning and keep up his traditional practices.
I cant help smiling at ourselves for the last statement below
There is no point, however, in suggesting what people belonging to the generation that has gone by should have done. I would urge the present generation to perform the duties that the past generation neglected to perform. To repeat, you must not forsake your dharma even on pain of death. Are we going to remain deathless? As it is we accumulate money and, worse, suffer humiliation and earn the jealousy of others and finally we die losing caste by not remaining true to our dharma.

s it not better then to starve and yet to be attached firmly to our dharma so long as there is breath in us? Is not such loyalty to our dharma a matter of pride? Why should we care about how others see us, whether they honour us or speak ill of us? So long as we do not compete with them for jobs they will have no cause for jealousy or resentment. Let them call us backward or stupid or think that we are not capable of keeping abreast of the times. As we not now already their but of ridicule? Let us be true to our dharma in the face of the mockery of others, even in the face of death. is not such a lot preferable to suffering the slings of scorn and criticism earned by forsaking our dharma for the sake of filling our belly? People nowadays die for their mother land; they lay down their lives for their mother tongue. They do not need a big cause like the freedom of the country to be roused too action: they court death, immolate themselves, even for a cause that may be seem trivial like the merger of a part of their district in another. Was there any demonstration of faith like this, such willingness to die for a cause or a belief, when the British came here with their life-style? At the same time did we protect our dharma with courage, in the belief that even death was a small pride to pay for it?

"What is the remedy today? Do you expect all Brahmins to leave their new life-style and return Vedic learning? "Whether or not I expect them to do so and whether or not such a step seems possible, I must ask them to do so( to return to their Vedic dharma). Where is the need for a guru-pitha or a seat on which an acarya is installed if I am to keep my mouth shut and watch idly as the dharma that is the source of everything is being endangered? Even if it seems not possible (Brahmins returning to the dharma of their birth) it must be shown to be possible in practice: that is the purpose of the institutions called mathas. They must harness all their energies towards the attainment of this goal.
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
subbudu,

one chhotta query: are the nagarathars, vellalars and pillais footing the bill for kamakoti.org in its charges of murder of sankarraman?

i am not sure, in the original letter to include nadars as brahmin patrons. afaik nadars were treated as badly as dalits, in erstwhile travancore. nadar women were not allowed to cover their breasts. in fact this led to large scale conversion of nadars to christianity in the 1800s. along with the new religion, came education, and with that upward mobility and energy to challenge status quo.

when kamaraj won the upper hand of congress, kicking out rajaji over the kula kalvi thittam, nadars deserted kanyakumari and flocked to chennai in large numbers, helped by the government to start small businesses and today they are standing example of success - small enterprise and a high level of education.

till a few years ago, marriage between hindu and christian nadars was accepted as norm, with the hindu converting. not any more. today, i hear the communities have calcified, and intermarriage is frowned on by hindu nadars with their xtian co-caste.

one good thing, is atleast in sangom's post, people have started thinking outside of the box.

with reference to death, elizabeth kubler-ross came up with the 5 stages of grief. i think this could be extrapolated to any disaster, personal or community wise. hope my modifications below make sense...

The stages, popularly known by the acronym DABDA, include:

Denial — Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of the potential of a good marriage and life lost

Anger — "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?" Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. we ourselves have seen many angry letters here in this forum

Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow get a tambram bride by offering more ie footing the marriage bill or paying reverse dowry

Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; the stage i think a large number of unmarried tambrams and their parents are, currently

Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; we may be moving slowly to this state. then there is hope, that the guys will become hunters, foraging other communites for brides. i think this will be an exciting phase, and wish for this to happen sooner than later.

i think it is important for tambrams to realize that nothing is lost. an old 'not valid anymore' norm needs to be replaced by something new. we, who took to working for the english and english companies, and thus paved way for upward mobility of our community, are facing a challenge re finding brides within the community. it is our own mental block that we need to overcome. hopefully sooner than later :)
 

subbudu1

New member
subbudu,

one chhotta query: are the nagarathars, vellalars and pillais footing the bill for kamakoti.org in its charges of murder of sankarraman?
Seem to have been quite a few supporters to the kanchi mutt from these communities in the past. Not sure about the present stock of young people from these communities. Bhaktavatsalam and his daughter( the mother of Jayanti Natarajan) were strong believers in the Kanchi Mutt.

till a few years ago, marriage between hindu and christian nadars was accepted as norm, with the hindu converting. not any more. today, i hear the communities have calcified, and intermarriage is frowned on by hindu nadars with their xtian co-caste.
True on the positive side of things they are beginning to look at alliances outside their community , though at a very slow pace. As of now love marriages seem to be the norm for breaking the caste divisions in their community.

that the guys will become hunters, foraging other communites for brides. i think this will be an exciting phase, and wish for this to happen sooner than later.
I am informed that this phase that you are talking about has actually started but unfortunately when the men are in the mid thirties. I know specific cases, and the parents have given a green signal to the boys to start the lookout. The search has already widened to all brahmins including gurukkals, and has now started extending to other Tamil communities. However the information that I have received is that the other communities continue to be more inward looking. Our brothers in Andhra, Maharastra and Karnataka have also started this. There was a report of a B arranged marriage with an NB girl in Karnataka. Though the NB girl belonged apparently to a community closely related to temple worship.
 
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I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views

I want to know what the orthodox here have to say to this-

I cannot help chuckling at this statement below as many orthodox here have been encouraging their children to settle abroad.

Does any orthodox here have the courage to answer the below

I sense a lot of hypocrisy here. Why must the orthodox only answer these questions?

If a "liberal" changes his lifestyle, it is deemed changing with times.

If an "orthodox" does, it is deemed hypocritical or opportunistic.

If an "orthodox" does not, it is deemed dogmatic. These are hypocritical attitudes.
 

subbudu1

New member
கால பைரவன்;96841 said:
I sense a lot of hypocrisy here. Why must the orthodox only answer these questions?

If a "liberal" changes his lifestyle, it is deemed changing with times.

If an "orthodox" does, it is deemed hypocritical or opportunistic.

If an "orthodox" does not, it is deemed dogmatic. These are hypocritical attitudes.
:) It is not about that Paramacharya must be the most revered among the orthodox here. What does the orthodox have to answer to his call.
The orthodox neo modern brahmins or whom we can call call weekend brahmins have one more option study in schools that offer vedic education + modern education. Even that is possible today. But is there guts.
On one hand orthodox lament on the lack of respect, lack of availability of brides, loss of culture. But the paramacharya whom they revere has shown the way for them. But do they as followers have the guts and faith in paramacharya.
In this article paramacharya puts the blame on brahmins square on the face. The audience is his followers.
 

sangom

Well-known member
I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views
Who is Responsible for the Decay of Varna Dharma? from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views
Who is Responsible for the Decay of Varna Dharma? from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:
The Brahmin relinquished the duties of his birth-the study of the Vedas and performance of the rites laid down in the Vedic tradition. He left his birthplace, the village, for the town. He cropped his hair and started dressing in European style. Giving up the Vedas, he took to the Mundane learning of the West. He fell to the lure of jobs offered by his white master and aped him in dress, manners and attitudes. He threw to the winds the noble dharma he had inherited from the Vedic seers through his forefathers and abandoned all for a mess of pottage. He was drawn to everything Western, science, life-style, entertainment.
The canonical texts have it that the Brahmin must have no love for money, that he must not accumulate wealth. So long as he followed his dharma, as prescribed by the sastras, and so long as he chanted the Vedas and performed sacrifices, he brought good to the world, and all other castes respected him and treated him with affection. In fact they looked upon him as a guide and model.
Others now observed how the Brahmin changed, how his life-style had become different with all its glitter and show and how he went about with all the pretence of having risen on the scale of civilization. The Brahmin had been an ideal for them in all that is noble, but how he strayed from the path of dharma; and following his example they too gave up their traditional vocations that had brought them happiness and contentment, and left their native village to settle in towns. Like the Brahmin they became keen to learn English and secure jobs in the government.
Dear Shri Subbudu,

I observe that HH Shri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathy, (CS) the auothor has omitted one vital aspect from the whole discussion given above. That is, the relevance of the Vedas and Sastras, the chanting of the vedas and performance of sacrifices, etc., as perceived in modern times. It it true that the priesthood of the vedic society was somehow able to convince itself and also make the other three wings of the vedic society (the Kshatriya, the Vaisya and the Sudra) also get convinced, or at least, to accept that the duties of the priesthood were most sacrosanct and necessary for the well-being of the world and that any questioning of this axiomatic truth will invite drastic punishments. But today, the situation is drastically different and, there will be only a small percentage of brahmins who sincerely and honestly believe the above axiom, imo. This change, according to me, is due in the main to the increase in Man's scientific knowledge and the widening of his rational horizon.

Let us assume, as CS has done, that the brahmins (of TN) had not been lured by the "mess of pottage" and had stuck to the way of life prescribed by the Sastras, and led a simple life, do you expect that all the other castes/varnas would necessarily and without fail, have taken the cue from those brahmins and stuck to the old-fashioned social equations within the Hindu society and also would have continued to perform their Sastra-divined occupation/avocations? I for one, do not at all think so.

On the contrary, it is my considered view that the Tamil brahmins from the present-day TN and Kerala (Palghat) must have been quite aware of the changes taking place gradually all around, and hence they sensed that their time-honoured vedadhyayanam, teaching of vedas, yajanam, yaajanam, etc., would not any longer be acceptable to the society at large and their future would be quite bleak if they believe the sastraic injunctions implicitly, and so they decided to stray away into other (and non-brahmanic) ways of livelihood to avoid starvation. Possibly, the lure for (more) money and creature comforts might have lured away more and more brahmins in this way, as time went by.

It is also an unsubstantiated statement when CS says, "The Brahmin had been an ideal for them in all that is noble, but how he strayed from the path of dharma; and following his example they too gave up their traditional vocations that had brought them happiness and contentment, and left their native village to settle in towns." There is no evidence to support this which is at best the author's subjective opinion.

For thousands of years the Brahmin had been engaged in Atmic pursuit and intellectual work. In the beginning all his mental faculties were employed for the welfare of society and not in the least for his own selfish advancement. Because of this very spirit of self-sacrifice, his intelligence became sharp like a razor constantly kept honed. Now the welfare of society is no longer the goal of his efforts and his intelligence has naturally dimmed due to this selfishness and interest in things worldly. He had been blessed with a bright intellect and he had the grace of the Lord to carry out the duties of his birth. Now, after forsaking his dharma, it is natural that his intellectual keenness should become blunted.

It is very difficult to substantiate the statement in the first sentence above. What evidence is there to show that the brahmins had been using all their "mental faculties" for the welfare of society and not for his own selfish advancemen? From what little is known, the Brahmins were doing yajanam and yaajanam mainly and for that purpose they learnt the veda/Vedas and also created specialties under the priestly occupation
so as to make the whole sacrifice a more and more elaborate and intricate, not easily understood, ritual. This perhaps helped the Brahmins of those days to convince the gullible public that the vedic sacrifices were the actual pillars which supported the very existence of the universe (yajñādbhavanti bhūtāni…etc.) and the Brahmins, in turn, tended to believe in that story as truth. In fact, however, the Brahmins lived as a community of priests, held as the highest layer of society and called “bhūsuras” (devas in this mortal world) and were supported and financed by the other two “dvija” castes.
Where did the Brahmin use his mental faculty for the “welfare of society”, except in his make-believe justification of his own existence and superiority to others (BTW, I am glad that CS himself admits this superiority in these words, But, on the other hand, though he spoke the language of equality, he kept aloof from other castes thinking himself to be superior to them.)

Due to sheer momentum the bicycle keeps going some distance even after you stop pedalling. Similarly, though the Brahmin seeks knowledge of mundane subjects instead of inner light, he retains yet a little intellectual brightness as a result of the "pedalling" done by his forefathers. It is because of this that he has been able to achieve remarkable progress in Western learning also. He has acquired expert knowledge in the practices of the West, in its law and its industries. Indeed he has gained such insights into these subjects and mastered their finer points so remarkably well that he can give lessons to the white man himself in them.
Is there any scientific evidence for any of the above averments, except the authority of CS himself?
A question that arises in this context is how Vedic studies which had not suffered much even during Muslim rule received a severe set-back with the advent of the European. One reason is the impact of the new sciences and the machines that came with the white man. Granted that many a truth was revealed through these sciences- and this was all to the good up to a point. But we must remember that the knowledge of a subject per se is one thing and how we use it in practice ins another.

Here I find CS admitting to the waning of the influence of the old brahministic influence on the other forward castes due to the influence of science and advent of modern technology. But admitting that would defeat his agenda and so he tries to qualify his unwitting admissions with subsequent saving clauses.

Up till now all members of society had their hereditary jobs to do and they did not have to worry about their livelihood. Now, with the example of the Brahmin before them, members of other castes also gave up their traditional occupations for the jobs made available by the British in the banks, railways, collectorates, etc. With the introduction of machinery our handicrafts fell into decay and many of our artisans had to look for other means of livelihood. In the absence of any demarcation in the matter of work and workers, there arose competition for jobs for the first time in the country. It was a disastrous development and it generated jealousy, ill-will, disputes and a host of other evils among people who had hitherto lived in harmony.

As if to exacerbate this ill-will, the Brahmin took one more disastrous step. On the one hand he gave up the dharma of his caste and joined hands with the British in condemning the old order by branching it a barbarous one in which one man exploited another. But, on the other hand, though he spoke the language of equality, he kept aloof from other castes thinking himself to be superior to them. If in the past he had not mixed physically with members of other castes, it did not mean that he had placed himself on a high pedestal. we must remember that there was a reason for his not coming into physical contact with other castes. There have to be differences between the jatis based on food, work and surroundings. The photographer needs a dark room to develop his films. To shoot a film, on the contrary, powerful lights are needed. Those who work in a factory canteen have to scrupulously clean; but those who dust machinery wear soiled clothes. This does not mean that the waiter in a canteen is superior to the factory hand who dusts machines. The man who takes the utmost care to keep himself intellectually bright, without any thought of himself, observes fasts, while the soldier, who has to be strong and tough, eats meat.

CS says practically what the self-loathing, anti-brahmin, neo non-brahmin lobby here in this Forum, say often, viz., blaming the Brahmins themselves for their downfall. But ideas like an ideal society ruled by the Dharma is a product of his idealistic imagination.

With urbanization and industrialization it becomes necessary for people belonging to various jatis to work together on the same shift, sit together in the same canteen to eat the same kind of food. The Brahmin for whom it is obligatory to observe fasts and vows and to perform various rites was now seen to be no different from others. Office and college timings were a hindrance to the carrying out of these rites. So the Brahmin threw them to the winds. He had so far taken care to perform these rites with the good of others in mind. Like a trustee, he had protected dharma for the sake of society and made its fruits available to all.
All that belonged to the past. Now the Brahmin came forward proclaiming that all were equal and that he was one with the rest. All the same he became the cause of heart-burning among others and -ironically enough- in becoming one with them he also competed with them for jobs. That apart, though he talked of equality, he still thought himself to be superior to others, in spite of the fact that he was not a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties. Was this not enough to earn him more hatred?

I wonder whether Brahmins could have been any more capable of being “a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties”, given the difficulties in modern urban living conditions.
 

sangom

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;96841 said:
I sense a lot of hypocrisy here. Why must the orthodox only answer these questions?

If a "liberal" changes his lifestyle, it is deemed changing with times.

If an "orthodox" does, it is deemed hypocritical or opportunistic.

If an "orthodox" does not, it is deemed dogmatic. These are hypocritical attitudes.

If an "orthodox" is not sensible enough to admit that a stage may come that he may, in future, change his lifestyle and continue his extremely uncompromising stand against the "liberals", he is either insensible or foolish. But if the "orthodox" continues to be orthodox, despite provocations and compulsions by circumstances, he deserves respect but even he should respect the opposing pov. The lack of an accommodating spirit even in a web forum like this (as if to prove his commitment to some ideology) is what is criticised as hypocritical, because most of these "orthodox" people are changing even if it be without their knowledge. That is why Shri Kunjuppu said none of the orthodox people will be considered as "brahmins" if their great grand father comes today and looks at the former's style of life; similarly, the great grandfather would be considered as a fallen brahmin by his great grandfather, and so on probably.
 
Quite a few labels can be seen in this forum -

Orthodox brahmins, liberal brahmins, weekend brahmins, moderate brahmins, modern brahmins, neo brahmins, self-loathing brahmins etc , but, I must admit, this one

The orthodox neo modern brahmins

tops it all!!

:) It is not about that Paramacharya must be the most revered among the orthodox here. What does the orthodox have to answer to his call.

If as Subbudu says, it is between the Paramacharya and his followers, who are dubbed orthodox neo modern brahmins, I am inclined to ask why does an "enlightened" brahmin poke his nose at all.

In this article paramacharya puts the blame on brahmins square on the face. The audience is his followers.

The paramacharya blames all brahmins. He does not distinguish among brahmins as liberal, orthodox, modern, orthodox neo modern etc. He talks about caste dharma. His view is that the downfall of the hindu society, which includes brahmins, is caused by brahmins themselves who abandoned their caste dharma. I do not think Subbudu agrees with this statement. If he does, then he must hold himself and the non-orthodox brahmins the most responsible.
 
continue his extremely uncompromising stand against the "liberals", he is either insensible or foolish.

As far as this forum is concerned, it is the so called liberals who are adamant not only in their views but even in their style of writing. The taunts, the innuendos, the shenanigans, the hate-mongering are endless. The uncompromising stand is the stand of the liberals, which makes their labeling incorrect.

The lack of an accommodating spirit even in a web forum like this as if to prove his commitment to some ideology.
This is a bogus charge. If anything, the members that Sangom associate with are the ones who treat this forum as if it is their personal fiefdom. They thought they can go on unchallenged but they are wrong.
 

Yamaka

New member
So even if they are meat eater's they will be Nambudiri's? :S Confused.

When you can drink plenty of cow's milk - animal source of sugar, protein and fat as food, why not meat?

What's the difference?

Early Vedic People have consumed plenty of horse meat after their Grand Rituals, a historical FACT.
 
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OP
OP
K

kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear sangom,

as you have pointed out again in post #21, and that query, which i have repeatedly asked kalabhairavan: re how his great grandfather would view the current brahminness of KB?

this is not meant to be a finger pointing question, but one of finding common ground. am i right in believing that KB practises the same form of brahminism as his great grandfather. i would like to compare notes, and cannot fathom, how this could be termed as insulting or anti brahmin or even putting down the brahmins.

from what i know and seen, my paternal great grandfather was probably a nobody in chathapuram village, did not go to school, did not posess any education, leather goods and was satisfied to roam around the village and live off the generosity of the relations. probably he did his sandhi and its equivalent, thrice a day. had a kudumi.

my paternal grandfather, was a clerk, passed 10th, had a turban to cover his kudumi, went to bombay and madras, died at 30 of TB.

my father had cropped hair, wore leather, enjoyed film music and dramas and did his sandhi once a day. that was his committment to brahminism.

personally, i did kiriyais for my parents, maternal grandparents at kasi, gaya. dropped using poonal long ago, as i felt i will be unable to reconcile my life values with what is expected of the cross thread. i did not wish to pass on the process to my children, when i did not practise it myself, quite different from many of my relatives. my children consider themselves hindus, casteless but hindus nevertheless.

i have no hangups about describing myself such.

i am requesting kalabhairavan, an identity admission, along the same lines. because, i feel, that there may be marginal differences, but not much, in practice. at the most, his lifestyle might resemble that of my father, but definitely not of my great grand father. and definitely, not of HIS ggf. both our ggf probably had similar values, and could relate to each other, but would not be able to relate to their great grandsons today.

thank you.
 
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