Would this mean that the Namboothiri boys would still be following their strict religious rigours with their NB wives, with the wives becoming brahmins in effect in the process, or the boys giving up the rigours altogether?
Haindava Keralam produced this - Haindava Keralam - global community of dedicated Hindu Keralites with a peace missioni was impressed when i read this article. maybe this is happening among tambrams too? without much ado?
Going beyond the rulebook | Namboothiri priests | brides | The New Indian Express
So even if they are meat eater's they will be Nambudiri's? :S Confused.
It is time Brahmin Priests reevaluate their role. It is loosing its relevance. The rituals are conducted with out the person for whom the rituals are conducted being aware what all this signifies or understanding the mantras being recited. Cermonies have become mere formalities with out any sanctity. People generally look down upon the priests and believe by paying him they can persuade the priests to be flexible to meet their requirements.
This is sad because these priests undergo rigorous training and studies as tough as may be the training in Military and they do acquire invaluable knowledge which is however unintelligible to the layman. May be the priests need to relook at the rituals and modify to suit the present times and even have the mantras translated in to different languages like Tamil,Telugu,Malayalam so that both the rituals and the mantras become meaningful to the layman. Everything has to
change with time and evolve if it has to survive.
Have a nice day
It is time Brahmin Priests reevaluate their role. It is loosing its relevance. The rituals are conducted with out the person for whom the rituals are conducted being aware what all this signifies or understanding the mantras being recited. Cermonies have become mere formalities with out any sanctity. People generally look down upon the priests and believe by paying him they can persuade the priests to be flexible to meet their requirements.
This is sad because these priests undergo rigorous training and studies as tough as may be the training in Military and they do acquire invaluable knowledge which is however unintelligible to the layman. May be the priests need to relook at the rituals and modify to suit the present times and even have the mantras translated in to different languages like Tamil,Telugu,Malayalam so that both the rituals and the mantras become meaningful to the layman. Everything has to change with time and evolve if it has to survive.
Have a nice day
My reply to this is God save the brahmins from brahmins.
May God help us from Brahminism and Brahmin community from becoming extinct through marriages!
The Brahmin relinquished the duties of his birth-the study of the Vedas and performance of the rites laid down in the Vedic tradition. He left his birthplace, the village, for the town. He cropped his hair and started dressing in European style. Giving up the Vedas, he took to the Mundane learning of the West. He fell to the lure of jobs offered by his white master and aped him in dress, manners and attitudes. He threw to the winds the noble dharma he had inherited from the Vedic seers through his forefathers and abandoned all for a mess of pottage. He was drawn to everything Western, science, life-style, entertainment.
The canonical texts have it that the Brahmin must have no love for money, that he must not accumulate wealth. So long as he followed his dharma, as prescribed by the sastras, and so long as he chanted the Vedas and performed sacrifices, he brought good to the world, and all other castes respected him and treated him with affection. In fact they looked upon him as a guide and model.
Others now observed how the Brahmin changed, how his life-style had become different with all its glitter and show and how he went about with all the pretence of having risen on the scale of civilization. The Brahmin had been an ideal for them in all that is noble, but how he strayed from the path of dharma; and following his example they too gave up their traditional vocations that had brought them happiness and contentment, and left their native village to settle in towns. Like the Brahmin they became keen to learn English and secure jobs in the government.
For thousands of years the Brahmin had been engaged in Atmic pursuit and intellectual work. In the beginning all his mental faculties were employed for the welfare of society and not in the least for his own selfish advancement. Because of this very spirit of self-sacrifice, his intelligence became sharp like a razor constantly kept honed. Now the welfare of society is no longer the goal of his efforts and his intelligence has naturally dimmed due to this selfishness and interest in things worldly. He had been blessed with a bright intellect and he had the grace of the Lord to carry out the duties of his birth. Now, after forsaking his dharma, it is natural that his intellectual keenness should become blunted.
Due to sheer momentum the bicycle keeps going some distance even after you stop pedalling. Similarly, though the Brahmin seeks knowledge of mundane subjects instead of inner light, he retains yet a little intellectual brightness as a result of the "pedalling" done by his forefathers. It is because of this that he has been able to achieve remarkable progress in Western learning also. He has acquired expert knowledge in the practices of the West, in its law and its industries. Indeed he has gained such insights into these subjects and mastered their finer points so remarkably well that he can give lessons to the white man himself in them.
A question that arises in this context is how Vedic studies which had not suffered much even during Muslim rule received a severe set-back with the advent of the European. One reason is the impact of the new sciences and the machines that came with the white man. Granted that many a truth was revealed through these sciences- and this was all to the good up to a point. But we must remember that the knowledge of a subject per se is one thing and how we use it in practice ins another.
Up till now all members of society had their hereditary jobs to do and they did not have to worry about their livelihood. Now, with the example of the Brahmin before them, members of other castes also gave up their traditional occupations for the jobs made available by the British in the banks, railways, collectorates, etc. With the introduction of machinery our handicrafts fell into decay and many of our artisans had to look for other means of livelihood. In the absence of any demarcation in the matter of work and workers, there arose competition for jobs for the first time in the country. It was a disastrous development and it generated jealousy, ill-will, disputes and a host of other evils among people who had hitherto lived in harmony.
As if to exacerbate this ill-will, the Brahmin took one more disastrous step. On the one hand he gave up the dharma of his caste and joined hands with the British in condemning the old order by branching it a barbarous one in which one man exploited another. But, on the other hand, though he spoke the language of equality, he kept aloof from other castes thinking himself to be superior to them. If in the past he had not mixed physically with members of other castes, it did not mean that he had placed himself on a high pedestal. we must remember that there was a reason for his not coming into physical contact with other castes. There have to be differences between the jatis based on food, work and surroundings. The photographer needs a dark room to develop his films. To shoot a film, on the contrary, powerful lights are needed. Those who work in a factory canteen have to scrupulously clean; but those who dust machinery wear soiled clothes. This does not mean that the waiter in a canteen is superior to the factory hand who dusts machines. The man who takes the utmost care to keep himself intellectually bright, without any thought of himself, observes fasts, while the soldier, who has to be strong and tough, eats meat.
With urbanization and industrialization it becomes necessary for people belonging to various jatis to work together on the same shift, sit together in the same canteen to eat the same kind of food. The Brahmin for whom it is obligatory to observe fasts and vows and to perform various rites was now seen to be no different from others. Office and college timings were a hindrance to the carrying out of these rites. So the Brahmin threw them to the winds. He had so far taken care to perform these rites with the good of others in mind. Like a trustee, he had protected dharma for the sake of society and made its fruits available to all.
All that belonged to the past. Now the Brahmin came forward proclaiming that all were equal and that he was one with the rest. All the same he became the cause of heart-burning among others and -ironically enough- in becoming one with them he also competed with them for jobs. That apart, though he talked of equality, he still thought himself to be superior to others, in spite of the fact that he was not a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties. Was this not enough to earn him more hatred?
It is my decided opinion that the Brahmin is responsible for the ruin of Hindu society.
The argument of those who have found an excuse for the conduct of latter days Brahmins goes thus. "Brahmins ceased to receive gifts from rulers after the inception of British rule. How can you expect them to live without any income? Force of circumstances made them to English education and thereafter too seek jobs with the government. It is unjust to find fault with them on that score. "
There is possibly some force in this argument but it does not fully justify the change that has come over Brahmins. Before the British, the Moghuls ruled us and before them a succession of sultanates. During these periods a few pandits must have found a place in the darbar. But all other Brahmins adhered to their dharma, did they not, without any support from any other ruler? The phenomenon of the Brahmin quarter becoming deserted, the village being ruined, all pathasala (the Vedic school) becoming forlorn and the lands(granted to Brahmins)turning into mere certificates is not more than a hundred years old. Did not Vedic dharma flourish until a generation ago?
Today you see hundreds of Vedic schools deserted. There are few Brahmin boys willing too study the scriptures. Who had raised the funds for the Vedic institutions? [In Tamil Nadu] the Nattukottai Nagarattars, Komutti Cettis and Vellalas. The work done by Nagarattars for our temples indeed remarkable. Throughout Tamil Nadu, if they built a temple they also built a Vedic school with the belief that the Vedas constituted the "root" of the temple. This root, they felt, was essential to the living presence of the deity in the temple and for the puja conducted there. Similarly, the big landowners among the Vellalas made lavish donations to the Vedic schools.
If the Brahmin had not been tempted by the European life-style and if he were willing to live austerely according to the dictates of the sastras, other castes would have come forward to help him. It is not that the others deserted him. He himself ran away from his dharma, from his agrahara, from his village and from the Vedic school because of his new appetite for the life of luxury made possible with the new technology of the West. He forgot his high ideals and paid scant respect of the principle that the body's requirements are not more that what it takes- in physical terms- to help the well-being of the Self. All told the argument that the Brahmin was compelled to abandon his dharma because he was denied his daily bread does not hold water. We cannot but admit that the Brahmin became greedy, that he yearned far more that what he needed for his sustenance.
Suppose a Brahmin received a salary of Rs1000 in Madras today. If he gets a job in Delhi with double the salary he runs off there. When he goes to Delhi he would abandon totally the dharma he was able to practise at least to a small extent in Madras. Later, if he were offered $4000 a month in America he would leave his motherland for that country, lured by the prospect t of earning a fortune. There, in the United States, he would became totally alienated from his religion, from his dharma, from all his money. The Brahmin is willing to do anything, go to any extent, for the sake of money. Fort instance, he would join the army if there were the promoter of more income in it. If necessary he would even take to meat and to drinking. The usual excuse trotted out for the Brahmin deserting his dharma does not wash.
I cant help smiling at ourselves for the last statement belowwill go one step further. Let us suppose that, the following the import of Western technology, other communities also became averse to observing their respective dharmic traditions. Let us also assume that, with their thinking and feelings influenced by the Aryan-Dravidian theory concocted by the English, these castes decided not to support the Brahmins any longer. Let us further assume that to feed himself(for the sake of a handful of rice) the Brahmin had to leave hearth and home and work in an office somewhere far away from his native village. Were he true to his dharma he would tell himself: "I will continue to adhere to my dharma come what may, even at the risk of death". With this resolve he could have made a determined effort to pursue Vedic learning and keep up his traditional practices.
There is no point, however, in suggesting what people belonging to the generation that has gone by should have done. I would urge the present generation to perform the duties that the past generation neglected to perform. To repeat, you must not forsake your dharma even on pain of death. Are we going to remain deathless? As it is we accumulate money and, worse, suffer humiliation and earn the jealousy of others and finally we die losing caste by not remaining true to our dharma.
s it not better then to starve and yet to be attached firmly to our dharma so long as there is breath in us? Is not such loyalty to our dharma a matter of pride? Why should we care about how others see us, whether they honour us or speak ill of us? So long as we do not compete with them for jobs they will have no cause for jealousy or resentment. Let them call us backward or stupid or think that we are not capable of keeping abreast of the times. As we not now already their but of ridicule? Let us be true to our dharma in the face of the mockery of others, even in the face of death. is not such a lot preferable to suffering the slings of scorn and criticism earned by forsaking our dharma for the sake of filling our belly? People nowadays die for their mother land; they lay down their lives for their mother tongue. They do not need a big cause like the freedom of the country to be roused too action: they court death, immolate themselves, even for a cause that may be seem trivial like the merger of a part of their district in another. Was there any demonstration of faith like this, such willingness to die for a cause or a belief, when the British came here with their life-style? At the same time did we protect our dharma with courage, in the belief that even death was a small pride to pay for it?
"What is the remedy today? Do you expect all Brahmins to leave their new life-style and return Vedic learning? "Whether or not I expect them to do so and whether or not such a step seems possible, I must ask them to do so( to return to their Vedic dharma). Where is the need for a guru-pitha or a seat on which an acarya is installed if I am to keep my mouth shut and watch idly as the dharma that is the source of everything is being endangered? Even if it seems not possible (Brahmins returning to the dharma of their birth) it must be shown to be possible in practice: that is the purpose of the institutions called mathas. They must harness all their energies towards the attainment of this goal.
Seem to have been quite a few supporters to the kanchi mutt from these communities in the past. Not sure about the present stock of young people from these communities. Bhaktavatsalam and his daughter( the mother of Jayanti Natarajan) were strong believers in the Kanchi Mutt.subbudu,
one chhotta query: are the nagarathars, vellalars and pillais footing the bill for kamakoti.org in its charges of murder of sankarraman?
True on the positive side of things they are beginning to look at alliances outside their community , though at a very slow pace. As of now love marriages seem to be the norm for breaking the caste divisions in their community.till a few years ago, marriage between hindu and christian nadars was accepted as norm, with the hindu converting. not any more. today, i hear the communities have calcified, and intermarriage is frowned on by hindu nadars with their xtian co-caste.
I am informed that this phase that you are talking about has actually started but unfortunately when the men are in the mid thirties. I know specific cases, and the parents have given a green signal to the boys to start the lookout. The search has already widened to all brahmins including gurukkals, and has now started extending to other Tamil communities. However the information that I have received is that the other communities continue to be more inward looking. Our brothers in Andhra, Maharastra and Karnataka have also started this. There was a report of a B arranged marriage with an NB girl in Karnataka. Though the NB girl belonged apparently to a community closely related to temple worship.that the guys will become hunters, foraging other communites for brides. i think this will be an exciting phase, and wish for this to happen sooner than later.
I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views
I want to know what the orthodox here have to say to this-
I cannot help chuckling at this statement below as many orthodox here have been encouraging their children to settle abroad.
Does any orthodox here have the courage to answer the below
கால பைரவன்;96841 said:I sense a lot of hypocrisy here. Why must the orthodox only answer these questions?
If a "liberal" changes his lifestyle, it is deemed changing with times.
If an "orthodox" does, it is deemed hypocritical or opportunistic.
If an "orthodox" does not, it is deemed dogmatic. These are hypocritical attitudes.
I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views
Who is Responsible for the Decay of Varna Dharma? from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:
I am posting some views from Kanchi Paramacharya on the fall of brahminism and would like to know your views
Who is Responsible for the Decay of Varna Dharma? from the Chapter "The Vedic Religion And Varna Dharma", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:
The Brahmin relinquished the duties of his birth-the study of the Vedas and performance of the rites laid down in the Vedic tradition. He left his birthplace, the village, for the town. He cropped his hair and started dressing in European style. Giving up the Vedas, he took to the Mundane learning of the West. He fell to the lure of jobs offered by his white master and aped him in dress, manners and attitudes. He threw to the winds the noble dharma he had inherited from the Vedic seers through his forefathers and abandoned all for a mess of pottage. He was drawn to everything Western, science, life-style, entertainment.The canonical texts have it that the Brahmin must have no love for money, that he must not accumulate wealth. So long as he followed his dharma, as prescribed by the sastras, and so long as he chanted the Vedas and performed sacrifices, he brought good to the world, and all other castes respected him and treated him with affection. In fact they looked upon him as a guide and model.Dear Shri Subbudu,Others now observed how the Brahmin changed, how his life-style had become different with all its glitter and show and how he went about with all the pretence of having risen on the scale of civilization. The Brahmin had been an ideal for them in all that is noble, but how he strayed from the path of dharma; and following his example they too gave up their traditional vocations that had brought them happiness and contentment, and left their native village to settle in towns. Like the Brahmin they became keen to learn English and secure jobs in the government.
I observe that HH Shri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathy, (CS) the auothor has omitted one vital aspect from the whole discussion given above. That is, the relevance of the Vedas and Sastras, the chanting of the vedas and performance of sacrifices, etc., as perceived in modern times. It it true that the priesthood of the vedic society was somehow able to convince itself and also make the other three wings of the vedic society (the Kshatriya, the Vaisya and the Sudra) also get convinced, or at least, to accept that the duties of the priesthood were most sacrosanct and necessary for the well-being of the world and that any questioning of this axiomatic truth will invite drastic punishments. But today, the situation is drastically different and, there will be only a small percentage of brahmins who sincerely and honestly believe the above axiom, imo. This change, according to me, is due in the main to the increase in Man's scientific knowledge and the widening of his rational horizon.
Let us assume, as CS has done, that the brahmins (of TN) had not been lured by the "mess of pottage" and had stuck to the way of life prescribed by the Sastras, and led a simple life, do you expect that all the other castes/varnas would necessarily and without fail, have taken the cue from those brahmins and stuck to the old-fashioned social equations within the Hindu society and also would have continued to perform their Sastra-divined occupation/avocations? I for one, do not at all think so.
On the contrary, it is my considered view that the Tamil brahmins from the present-day TN and Kerala (Palghat) must have been quite aware of the changes taking place gradually all around, and hence they sensed that their time-honoured vedadhyayanam, teaching of vedas, yajanam, yaajanam, etc., would not any longer be acceptable to the society at large and their future would be quite bleak if they believe the sastraic injunctions implicitly, and so they decided to stray away into other (and non-brahmanic) ways of livelihood to avoid starvation. Possibly, the lure for (more) money and creature comforts might have lured away more and more brahmins in this way, as time went by.
It is also an unsubstantiated statement when CS says, "The Brahmin had been an ideal for them in all that is noble, but how he strayed from the path of dharma; and following his example they too gave up their traditional vocations that had brought them happiness and contentment, and left their native village to settle in towns." There is no evidence to support this which is at best the author's subjective opinion.
For thousands of years the Brahmin had been engaged in Atmic pursuit and intellectual work. In the beginning all his mental faculties were employed for the welfare of society and not in the least for his own selfish advancement. Because of this very spirit of self-sacrifice, his intelligence became sharp like a razor constantly kept honed. Now the welfare of society is no longer the goal of his efforts and his intelligence has naturally dimmed due to this selfishness and interest in things worldly. He had been blessed with a bright intellect and he had the grace of the Lord to carry out the duties of his birth. Now, after forsaking his dharma, it is natural that his intellectual keenness should become blunted.
It is very difficult to substantiate the statement in the first sentence above. What evidence is there to show that the brahmins had been using all their "mental faculties" for the welfare of society and not for his own selfish advancemen? From what little is known, the Brahmins were doing yajanam and yaajanam mainly and for that purpose they learnt the veda/Vedas and also created specialties under the priestly occupation
so as to make the whole sacrifice a more and more elaborate and intricate, not easily understood, ritual. This perhaps helped the Brahmins of those days to convince the gullible public that the vedic sacrifices were the actual pillars which supported the very existence of the universe (yajñādbhavanti bhūtāni…etc.) and the Brahmins, in turn, tended to believe in that story as truth. In fact, however, the Brahmins lived as a community of priests, held as the highest layer of society and called “bhūsuras” (devas in this mortal world) and were supported and financed by the other two “dvija” castes.
Where did the Brahmin use his mental faculty for the “welfare of society”, except in his make-believe justification of his own existence and superiority to others (BTW, I am glad that CS himself admits this superiority in these words, “But, on the other hand, though he spoke the language of equality, he kept aloof from other castes thinking himself to be superior to them.”)
Is there any scientific evidence for any of the above averments, except the authority of CS himself?Due to sheer momentum the bicycle keeps going some distance even after you stop pedalling. Similarly, though the Brahmin seeks knowledge of mundane subjects instead of inner light, he retains yet a little intellectual brightness as a result of the "pedalling" done by his forefathers. It is because of this that he has been able to achieve remarkable progress in Western learning also. He has acquired expert knowledge in the practices of the West, in its law and its industries. Indeed he has gained such insights into these subjects and mastered their finer points so remarkably well that he can give lessons to the white man himself in them.
A question that arises in this context is how Vedic studies which had not suffered much even during Muslim rule received a severe set-back with the advent of the European. One reason is the impact of the new sciences and the machines that came with the white man. Granted that many a truth was revealed through these sciences- and this was all to the good up to a point. But we must remember that the knowledge of a subject per se is one thing and how we use it in practice ins another.
Here I find CS admitting to the waning of the influence of the old brahministic influence on the other forward castes due to the influence of science and advent of modern technology. But admitting that would defeat his agenda and so he tries to qualify his unwitting admissions with subsequent saving clauses.
Up till now all members of society had their hereditary jobs to do and they did not have to worry about their livelihood. Now, with the example of the Brahmin before them, members of other castes also gave up their traditional occupations for the jobs made available by the British in the banks, railways, collectorates, etc. With the introduction of machinery our handicrafts fell into decay and many of our artisans had to look for other means of livelihood. In the absence of any demarcation in the matter of work and workers, there arose competition for jobs for the first time in the country. It was a disastrous development and it generated jealousy, ill-will, disputes and a host of other evils among people who had hitherto lived in harmony.
As if to exacerbate this ill-will, the Brahmin took one more disastrous step. On the one hand he gave up the dharma of his caste and joined hands with the British in condemning the old order by branching it a barbarous one in which one man exploited another. But, on the other hand, though he spoke the language of equality, he kept aloof from other castes thinking himself to be superior to them. If in the past he had not mixed physically with members of other castes, it did not mean that he had placed himself on a high pedestal. we must remember that there was a reason for his not coming into physical contact with other castes. There have to be differences between the jatis based on food, work and surroundings. The photographer needs a dark room to develop his films. To shoot a film, on the contrary, powerful lights are needed. Those who work in a factory canteen have to scrupulously clean; but those who dust machinery wear soiled clothes. This does not mean that the waiter in a canteen is superior to the factory hand who dusts machines. The man who takes the utmost care to keep himself intellectually bright, without any thought of himself, observes fasts, while the soldier, who has to be strong and tough, eats meat.
CS says practically what the self-loathing, anti-brahmin, neo non-brahmin lobby here in this Forum, say often, viz., blaming the Brahmins themselves for their downfall. But ideas like an ideal society ruled by the Dharma is a product of his idealistic imagination.
With urbanization and industrialization it becomes necessary for people belonging to various jatis to work together on the same shift, sit together in the same canteen to eat the same kind of food. The Brahmin for whom it is obligatory to observe fasts and vows and to perform various rites was now seen to be no different from others. Office and college timings were a hindrance to the carrying out of these rites. So the Brahmin threw them to the winds. He had so far taken care to perform these rites with the good of others in mind. Like a trustee, he had protected dharma for the sake of society and made its fruits available to all.
All that belonged to the past. Now the Brahmin came forward proclaiming that all were equal and that he was one with the rest. All the same he became the cause of heart-burning among others and -ironically enough- in becoming one with them he also competed with them for jobs. That apart, though he talked of equality, he still thought himself to be superior to others, in spite of the fact that he was not a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties. Was this not enough to earn him more hatred?
I wonder whether Brahmins could have been any more capable of being “a bit more careful than they about the performance of religious duties”, given the difficulties in modern urban living conditions.
கால பைரவன்;96841 said:I sense a lot of hypocrisy here. Why must the orthodox only answer these questions?
If a "liberal" changes his lifestyle, it is deemed changing with times.
If an "orthodox" does, it is deemed hypocritical or opportunistic.
If an "orthodox" does not, it is deemed dogmatic. These are hypocritical attitudes.
The orthodox neo modern brahmins
It is not about that Paramacharya must be the most revered among the orthodox here. What does the orthodox have to answer to his call.
In this article paramacharya puts the blame on brahmins square on the face. The audience is his followers.
continue his extremely uncompromising stand against the "liberals", he is either insensible or foolish.
This is a bogus charge. If anything, the members that Sangom associate with are the ones who treat this forum as if it is their personal fiefdom. They thought they can go on unchallenged but they are wrong.The lack of an accommodating spirit even in a web forum like this as if to prove his commitment to some ideology.
So even if they are meat eater's they will be Nambudiri's? :S Confused.