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How random is randomness?

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In this forum I have come across some people calling randomness to their support in arguing about the superiority of science over God/Karma/belief. How random should the randomness be to qualify as a random event? Chaos theorists have already seen 'strange attractors' in randomness of the chaos. It would appear that random events do acquire a pattern if looked at from sufficiently 'free' view points and if the event occurring 'arena' is sufficiently large to accommodate a very large sample size.(excuse me for using common man's language here instead of the intimidating technical lingo. It is deleberate). Please read this story. It is interesting.

Monkeys type out entire work of Shakespeare by hitting random keys:


Given enough time, a monkey with a type writer would reproduce the complete works of Shakespeare says a famous hypothesis. Now it is proved.

American researchers have created an army of millions of virtual monkeys, who have almost typed out the entire works of Shakespeare by bashing random keys on simulated typewriters. The virtual monkeys , developed by programmer Jesse Anderson have already typed up the whole of the poem "A Lover's Complaint" and are 99.99% of the way through the Bard's complete works, the Daily Telegraph reported.
Anderson said he was inspired by an episode on "The Simpsons" which spoofs the famous hypothesis that an infinite number of monkeys sitting at an infinite number of typewriters would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare by chance. Using Amazon's SC2 cloud computing system, Anderson set up millions of small computer programmes, or virtual monkeys, and programmed them to churn out random sequences of nine characters. If the nine letter sequence appears anywhere in one of Shakespeare's writings, it is matched against the relevant passage in a copy of the Bard's complete works and is checked off the list.

The monkeys which started typing on August 21 have already completed more than five trillion of the 5.5 trillion possible nine-letter combinations but have so far only finished one whole work.

Writing on his blog, Anderson said,"This is the largest work ever randomly reproduced. It is one small step for a monkey, one giant leap for virtual primates everywhere. I understand the definition of infinity and infinite monkey theorem and I realize that this project does not have infinite resources."

In 2003, the Arts Council for England paid GBP 2000 for a real life test of the theorem involving six Sulawesi crested Macaques, but the trial was abandoned after a month. The monkeys produced five pages of text mainly composed of the letter S, but failed to type anything close to a word of English, broke the computer and used the keyboard as a lavatory.

Randomness is quite attractive indeed.

Cheers.


(source: The Times of India)
 
Dear Mr. Suraju,
I was planning to write on this Infinite Monkey theorem.
And also another which states that learned behavior among monkeys become acquired behavior among their descendants after some time. Very interesting indeed!
May be they are better off than some of us here - who refuse to learn anything at all!
with warm regards,
Mrs. V.R.
 
dear suraju,

how about introducing mandoos like me, to the wonderful world of random theory and chaos? :) take this thread to one step above.

please & thank you.
 
dear suraju,

how about introducing mandoos like me, to the wonderful world of random theory and chaos? :) take this thread to one step above.

please & thank you.

Dear Kunjuppu,

By the first sentence of your post you have done signal injustice to your Alma matter, the IIT.(just kidding). If you are really not in the bandwidth already and want to get into it I can suggest some simple books on chaos which do not make a huge demand on your memory of what you learnt in your college days. But please let me know. If it is a trap laid by an IITian, I retreat and raise my hands, Mia culpa.
 
Dear VR,

You can still write. We would only be happy to share with you what we know and learn in the process.
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

By the first sentence of your post you have done signal injustice to your Alma matter, the IIT.(just kidding). If you are really not in the bandwidth already and want to get into it I can suggest some simple books on chaos which do not make a huge demand on your memory of what you learnt in your college days. But please let me know. If it is a trap laid by an IITian, I retreat and raise my hands, Mia culpa.

dear suraju,

no trap. iit was an accident. happened 45 years ago. all those grey cells long gone :)

i am always curious because: when i go to the gym, there are 5 corridors, with 30 cubbies in each. i chose an empty corridor cubby to put my stuff, and yet when i go to shower, and come back, my corridor is always full, while the others remain empty.

what is it? random? or chaos? to me it is irritating. that is all. :)

ps. i sincerely think iits are overrated. the smart kids will be smart anywhere. the notsosmart kids fly on the coattails of iit reputation, much to the disaster of those who believe in it. seriously.
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

I will come back with the name of the book and author tomorrow.
IITs are not overrated despite what Narayanamoorthy has to say about that. I missed my chance to study in IIT despite getting selected in the entrance test because of economic reasons-staying at home in a village and attending the college in a nearby town was economically more attractive than going to Madras and studying in IIT staying in hostel. This was despite a Govt. loan scholarship that was available. Coming to the point, In my later academic life, I have come across some of the very sharp minds all from IIT. I think it has something to do with the faculty there. I think you don't start with any handicaps there whereas in other institutions you have to make extra effort to fill up the gaps-like I did when in PUC, when my mind refused to move one step further without "understanding" what "exactly" is differentiation and integration. My lecturer's explanation was not of any help. I rummaged through the bookshelves of my college library until I got what I wanted. You must be knowing better.

Cheers.
 
So says Narayanamurthy of infosys. Some years back he said it is easier to get admission in Harvard than to join iit. Now he says that the quality of iit students is poor.

As Parkinson would say - iit has reached its level of incompetence. There are some companies in India which do not iitians as graduate trainees. And many private engineering colleges score more in exporting students for US graduate programmes.

But iits are getting into wider disciplines like medicine and humanities. I had a good time in IIT.
 
Seems there are a number of IITians among forum members. I think JEE is formidable to students who somewhat lack the aptitude for analytical reasoning. They may be talented in other and even in more important ways which I think the JEE should test. But in my view brahmins and IIT is a deadly combination The higher and analytical intelligence perfectly coming together

Disclaimer: By brahmins I just do not mean brahmins by birth. And I mean those who have strong spiritual inclinations and are strong in analytical ability must be rare indeed.
 
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Let this post flow in a new direction.

dedar suraju,

First of all I am very disappointed and sad, that you did not avail of the chance to study in iit. At my time, the fees were 25 rupees per month, hostel food 100 pm. Anyone who could produce a piece of ‘need’ paper, got 250 rupees per month from the government. This was abused by many. The cut off salary for the parent was 1000 rupees, which put many govt servants sons out of reach, for they had to produce salary certificates, whereas many businessmen students failed to pay fees, and collect the stipend. Sad.

As sarang says, everyone in iit had a good time. Till 1990s I would imagine, before the i.t. craze. Life went casual, barring few, most did not work hard, and sailed along with the brainy crowd. The best part was meeting kids from all over india. No better way to appreciate the nation, I think, still has been found. If I had my way, I would reserve, in every state, in every college, 50% to out of state students. Best for national integration too. :)

Ofcourse there were smart kids. But I think the majority of them, including myself were just average. In my time, kids took an extra year, after puc, went to an institute in nungambakkam where they learned rudiments of engineering drawing. This was the easiest subject to crack, and all of these got the prime courses in electronics and elec engg. It is a wonder tamil nadu got in at all. We had our puc which was absolutely mugging pages and pages, and spitting it out. That too, there were a set of standard 20 questions, repeated over the years.

Personally, I think puc and b.e. is all that is needed to provide a rudimentary knowledge for 99% of the jobs in india. Same goes in the rest of the world, for in the work environment esp engineering, we do not need creative thinking but only appreciate the technology and ability to manufacture with zero defect.

In my class of 250, I think less than 10% still stic to engineering. Which is my another point. That in india, we have considered engineering as a basic foundation degree, and not as a stepping stone to a professional career in that field. Unlike accounting or medicine, where you practice and put to use what you studied in the college. So, an absolute waste.

The sad situation was in my class of 250, less than 70 got jobs, and 4 only in madras (salary 450 rupees/month). Our seniors had shown the way abroad, and almost 40% followed suit. Not many have returned, and none have regrets. Such were those times. india of 1973 indira Gandhi was probably the worst place in the world to live and grow up. And seek a career. Those of my classmates who remained, the vast majority did well, after 1990s. with many being ceo of brand name companies. It was their reward for slugging it through the 70s, 80s. good for them.

I visited my old hostel one of these visits to show my children, who were more enamoured with iit, from having heard about it outside, and unable to come to terms, with my panning the organization for many things, including brahministic exclusivity and racism. Incidentally even now, there is only one dalit prof, vasantha Kandasamy, who has been shunned and treated badly. A shame. Not many women profs either. Another shame. And big fuss made over admitting 25% to dalits. Even bigger shame.

When I went to my hostel, I found 90% of students were from Andhra, quite different from my days, when 30% tambrams, 15% kerala xtians and balance northies.and other south Indian states. These were not interested in engg career. No matter what faculty they chose (chemical, civil etc.) they wanted to go to i.t. and get jobs with Microsoft, google or apple, in that order. Indian companies came further down the list. very serious, in that, I visited them on a Sunday morning. Normally we would be lounging or playing bridge. Here these kids were grouped together and solving problems. Quite a change of character and focus, not necessarily for the better.

To sum up, iits are overrated. Brilliance, in this vast land of 1.2 billion, is found everywhere. Just some of these, manage to camaflouge their shape and colour, and become the key, that unlocks the doors to the iit. That is all.
 
The Hundredth Monkey Effect.

The hundredth monkey effect is a supposed phenomenon in which a learned behavior spreads instantaneously from one group of monkeys to all related monkeys-once a critical number is reached.

It means the instantaneous paranormal spreading of an idea or ability to the remainder of a population (once a certain portion of that population has heard of the new idea or learned the new ability.) The story behind this supposed phenomenon originated in the mid-to-late 1970s.

It was observed that some of the monkeys learned to wash sweet potatoes and gradually this new behavior spread through the younger generation of monkeys—in the usual fashion, through observation and repetition.

It was claimed that once a critical number of monkeys was reached this previously learned behavior instantly spread across the water to monkeys on nearby islands.

An analysis of the appropriate literature by Ron Amundson revealed several key points that demystified the supposed effect.


Unsubstantiated claims that there was a sudden and remarkable increase in the proportion of washers in the first population were exaggerations of a much slower and more mundane effect.


 
Hundredth monkey effect continued...

Rather than all monkeys mysteriously learning the skill it was noted that it was predominantly younger monkeys that learned the skill from the older monkeys through observational learning, which is widespread in the animal kingdom.


Older monkeys who did not know how to wash tended not to learn. As the older monkeys died and younger monkeys were born the proportion of washers naturally increased. The time span between observations was in the order of years.

At least one washing monkey had to swim to another population and spend about four years there to teach those monkeys living there.
 
Sarang,

I just finished chetans’ ‘two states’. Not very impressed. He could have made a comedy of this piece, but he turned it into a bollywood pathos, and after 2/3 of the book, I flipped to the last page, and was relieved with the ending. And shut the book for good.

The book is supposed to vaguely narrate his own marriage, ie a Punjabi marrying a tambram. His wife is a pretty girl from Chennai, whom he met at iim ahmedabad. But chetan write with an eye on bollywood, and apparently succeeding in minting money (my copy was the 18th reprint and withn 2 years of initial print).

Chetan, ofcourse loves the pedigree of iit/iim for it helps him sell his books. I would agree with narayana murthy, that iit deserve no more and no less attention or recognition, than say, guindy engg college, or psg or cit or nit trichy. I had classmates from school in all of these, and these did better or equal to those of us who joined iit.

The nit trichy called rec trichy in my time, had per my friends, almost an eclectic collection of students from all over india, like iit. And probably better teachers. Iit teaching staff consistently suck in my opinion. I am, yet to meet an iitian from anywhere who has spoken good of the staff across the board. Some fab teachers, but most were are mediocre.
 
In Treta Yuga..Monkeys built a bridge ever so easily,
In Dwapara Yuga..Flag of a Monkey on the chariot of victory,
In Kali Yuga...Monkeys type Shakespeare randomly,
Move over scientists here comes the Primate Family!!!
 
S I am, yet to meet an iitian from anywhere who has spoken good of the staff across the board. Some fab teachers, but most were are mediocre.

iit/iim picks and gathers the creme' de la creme' students of plus two across india.

no wonder, even if it has lalloo yadav/mu ka azhagiri/goundamani as its professors, the iit'ians would fare well in all as creme.

sh.kunjuppu's stand out here in this forum, stands self explanatory to iit :)
 
dear suraju,

no trap. iit was an accident. happened 45 years ago. all those grey cells long gone :)

i am always curious because: when i go to the gym, there are 5 corridors, with 30 cubbies in each. i chose an empty corridor cubby to put my stuff, and yet when i go to shower, and come back, my corridor is always full, while the others remain empty.

what is it? random? or chaos? to me it is irritating. that is all. :)

ps. i sincerely think iits are overrated. the smart kids will be smart anywhere. the notsosmart kids fly on the coattails of iit reputation, much to the disaster of those who believe in it. seriously.

May be people like you secretly. LOL
 
In Treta Yuga..Monkeys built a bridge ever so easily,
In Dwapara Yuga..Flag of a Monkey on the chariot of victory,
In Kali Yuga...Monkeys type Shakespeare randomly,
Move over scientists here comes the Primate Family!!!

I expected you say "Move over scientists here comes the Primate Nobel Laureate" but you stopped with this!!
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

Here is the book that I recommend to you for a beginning:

Book's name: CHAOS
Written by James Gleick.
First published in Great Brittain by William Heinemann in 1988.
The copy I have is one published by Vintage(Random House) in 1998.

Happy reading.
Cheers.
 
I expected you say "Move over scientists here comes the Primate Nobel Laureate" but you stopped with this!!

But dear..That wont rhyme with all the other lines.

You know when any such stanza is written with all similar sounding words at the end..like how i wrote..easily,victory,randomly and family,this rule is called "Yamaka" in Sanskrit.

So T Rajendar has been really good at "Yamaka" all this while.LOL
 
But dear..That wont rhyme with all the other lines.

You know when any such stanza is written with all similar sounding words at the end..like how i wrote..easily,victory,randomly and family,this rule is called "Yamaka" in Sanskrit.

So T Rajendar has been really good at "Yamaka" all this while.LOL

That is not "yamaka" but "antyaakshara praasam" I think. Yamaka means words of opposite meaning in the same pada, or sloka, like "is tallness or dwarfishness better for humans?"
 
Dear Renuka,

But dear..That wont rhyme with all the other lines.
You know when any such stanza is written with all similar sounding words at the end..like how i wrote..easily,victory,randomly and family,this rule is called "Yamaka" in Sanskrit.
So T Rajendar has been really good at "Yamaka" all this while.LOL

I understand. We call it எதுகை and மோனை in Tamil grammer.

But I wrote it on a serious note. Think about this possibility:

What we have done so far is that we allowed an army of virtual monkeys to bang the typewriter keyboard and they produced Shakespeare's work eventually.

If I write out a programme for filtering all those words which are produced by the banging- words which come with just one or two letterss missing/wrong and take them also as correct -which we do in real life. Then we will be getting the Shakespeare's work in much shorter time. And suppose, now this is very important, if we allow a bigger army of virtual monkeys to monkey around randomly with typewriter keyboards they may eventually produce the elusive grand unified theory which is a scientist's dream. And it will certainly fetch a Nobel prize to the virtual primates.

Then you will throw all your Yamaka, எதுகை and மோனை to the wind and cry out well come Laureate.
 
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