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Ghotra Question
- Thread starter il_guy
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S
Saab
Guest
The most appropriate one for you will be Viswamithra Gothra. Because he created a whole new universe and populated it - all with his mind!
Brahmanyan
Active member
Gothra Question.
Where is the relevance of "Gothra" in today's world, when "Brahmins" have given a go bye to every other thing relevant to them? Our Boys and girls are driven to marry or live together according to their needs due to reasons better known to the parents. Let us not mock at the wonderful system of genetics so assiduously developed by our forefathers in the form of preserving "gothra".We use "Gothra" for the purposes of Puja Sankalpa or other purposes selectively to suit our needs. We are more concerned about the pedigree of our pet Dogs and Horses, but do not evince the same amount of concern in respect of our own children. Let us ponder over a little the cause for this degeneration.
This is not an answer to friend Justine's query.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Where is the relevance of "Gothra" in today's world, when "Brahmins" have given a go bye to every other thing relevant to them? Our Boys and girls are driven to marry or live together according to their needs due to reasons better known to the parents. Let us not mock at the wonderful system of genetics so assiduously developed by our forefathers in the form of preserving "gothra".We use "Gothra" for the purposes of Puja Sankalpa or other purposes selectively to suit our needs. We are more concerned about the pedigree of our pet Dogs and Horses, but do not evince the same amount of concern in respect of our own children. Let us ponder over a little the cause for this degeneration.
This is not an answer to friend Justine's query.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
S
Saab
Guest
Dear Brahmanyamji,
Namaskaram. Is it not true that Bhagavan created the entire humanity not just those of Bharathavarsha?
Other religions which started out later would also cease to exist but Sanathana Dharma will be the beginningless Dharma that will never end.
In this perspective, is it not true that as Bhagavan's creations everyone belongs to one Gothra or another?
People have been taken to other faiths and they come back later. In the meantime they have forgotten their Gothras. They were given gothras on their return to start afresh. If I remember correct in Kashmir when the Muslim conversion went on a full swing, the sages said to the remaining Hindus that they would all be Pandits (Brahmins) for standing up to the Muslims and they were given four gothras by which their erstwhile varnas could be recognized but yet they were declared to be Brahmins. This was aapath dharma.
As a subject to Bhagavan's creation everyone is entitled to return to practice Sanathana Dharma and nothing should prevent their return.
This is my humble view.
Regards,
P.S: Your concern about keeping the purity of the Gothra is valid. However the fact remains that in Prakrthi 'misram' (mixture) is unavoidable. If we build an impregnable fort then those inhabitants of the fort would reach a shining glory of the dharma they pursue. However nothing is saaswatham (permanent) in this universe.
Namaskaram. Is it not true that Bhagavan created the entire humanity not just those of Bharathavarsha?
Other religions which started out later would also cease to exist but Sanathana Dharma will be the beginningless Dharma that will never end.
In this perspective, is it not true that as Bhagavan's creations everyone belongs to one Gothra or another?
People have been taken to other faiths and they come back later. In the meantime they have forgotten their Gothras. They were given gothras on their return to start afresh. If I remember correct in Kashmir when the Muslim conversion went on a full swing, the sages said to the remaining Hindus that they would all be Pandits (Brahmins) for standing up to the Muslims and they were given four gothras by which their erstwhile varnas could be recognized but yet they were declared to be Brahmins. This was aapath dharma.
As a subject to Bhagavan's creation everyone is entitled to return to practice Sanathana Dharma and nothing should prevent their return.
This is my humble view.
Regards,
P.S: Your concern about keeping the purity of the Gothra is valid. However the fact remains that in Prakrthi 'misram' (mixture) is unavoidable. If we build an impregnable fort then those inhabitants of the fort would reach a shining glory of the dharma they pursue. However nothing is saaswatham (permanent) in this universe.
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brahmanyan,
the way i read justin's note, is how to answer an archana question - name, nakshathram, gothra. many a times, when we do archana, we just give the names of the individuals concerned. we figure God will know whom the special prayers are for. i feel that archana is more our peace of mind and comfort.
justin, in similar circumstances, has an option to answer the same way. i think.
justin is a new member to our fold. i welcome him. i think he has the option to assume whatever gothra he wants. saab's suggestion of viswamithra is an excellent one. we belong to haridha gothra, and on behalf of haridhas, i would be very honoured if he decides to become part of our clan.
moreover, if justin would so want, i will pass on my abhivaadhey to him in private messenger.
brahmanyan, i see your angst re gothra dilution and the damage to system of genetics developed by our forefathers in the form of preserving "gothra". i am not so sure about that dilution has not already taken place, and extent of preservation.
hindus are not a paper based, history capturing society like the japanese or the catholic church, or the western societies where there records maintained for past hundreds of years. so people can trace their lineage for several centuries.
i know upto my grand parents level. i have no idea of my great grand parents. i have not met any who know more than a two or sometimes three levels of ancestors. wars, migrations, skeletons in the closet etc all play a part in mixing of people.
the only reason why i am not so sure that gothra lineage is maintained, is that if you put a cross section of tamils or tamil brahmins or any indians for that matter, it is difficult to separate them into castes just by the looks of them. the same goes for my own family, where we have members charcoal dark to mediterranean brown in skin colour and features. also, DNA tests have proved that indians have common DNA which again makes me question the scientific truth about purity of blood.
but i will agree, that the gothra, if it is expounded as an article of faith and belief, then it is perfectly plausible. for faith transcends any scientific theory or findings. i personally look upon gothra in that perspective, and so i have no conflict between scientific findings, and when i say my abhivaadhey.
hope this explains.
thank you.
the way i read justin's note, is how to answer an archana question - name, nakshathram, gothra. many a times, when we do archana, we just give the names of the individuals concerned. we figure God will know whom the special prayers are for. i feel that archana is more our peace of mind and comfort.
justin, in similar circumstances, has an option to answer the same way. i think.
justin is a new member to our fold. i welcome him. i think he has the option to assume whatever gothra he wants. saab's suggestion of viswamithra is an excellent one. we belong to haridha gothra, and on behalf of haridhas, i would be very honoured if he decides to become part of our clan.
moreover, if justin would so want, i will pass on my abhivaadhey to him in private messenger.
brahmanyan, i see your angst re gothra dilution and the damage to system of genetics developed by our forefathers in the form of preserving "gothra". i am not so sure about that dilution has not already taken place, and extent of preservation.
hindus are not a paper based, history capturing society like the japanese or the catholic church, or the western societies where there records maintained for past hundreds of years. so people can trace their lineage for several centuries.
i know upto my grand parents level. i have no idea of my great grand parents. i have not met any who know more than a two or sometimes three levels of ancestors. wars, migrations, skeletons in the closet etc all play a part in mixing of people.
the only reason why i am not so sure that gothra lineage is maintained, is that if you put a cross section of tamils or tamil brahmins or any indians for that matter, it is difficult to separate them into castes just by the looks of them. the same goes for my own family, where we have members charcoal dark to mediterranean brown in skin colour and features. also, DNA tests have proved that indians have common DNA which again makes me question the scientific truth about purity of blood.
but i will agree, that the gothra, if it is expounded as an article of faith and belief, then it is perfectly plausible. for faith transcends any scientific theory or findings. i personally look upon gothra in that perspective, and so i have no conflict between scientific findings, and when i say my abhivaadhey.
hope this explains.
thank you.
Brahmanyan
Active member
Ghothra Question.
Dear "Saab" and "Kunjuppu",
My thanks to you both for your comments on my post, which I value and appreciate much. I wish other learned members of the Forum also give their opinions on this important subject, which will soon become only of academic interest due to obsolescence of value.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Dear "Saab" and "Kunjuppu",
My thanks to you both for your comments on my post, which I value and appreciate much. I wish other learned members of the Forum also give their opinions on this important subject, which will soon become only of academic interest due to obsolescence of value.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
What I remember as told my FIL...
If one's brith-date is lost but only the year is known, His DOB is derived as 15th Jun of that particular year, if only the date is unknown but the year and months were known , then the person's Date is assumed as 15th of that month. Likewise, if gothra is unknown, then there is a (I think it is Kashyapa, need to check) Gothra which could be assumed as a de-facto gothra.
In our cuture, most of things are determined by birth. But if by birth, one is not born in our culture, but very much interested in following our culture, then he should find a teacher or guide and follow his instructions devoutly.
Regards
If one's brith-date is lost but only the year is known, His DOB is derived as 15th Jun of that particular year, if only the date is unknown but the year and months were known , then the person's Date is assumed as 15th of that month. Likewise, if gothra is unknown, then there is a (I think it is Kashyapa, need to check) Gothra which could be assumed as a de-facto gothra.
In our cuture, most of things are determined by birth. But if by birth, one is not born in our culture, but very much interested in following our culture, then he should find a teacher or guide and follow his instructions devoutly.
Regards
S
Saab
Guest
Dear MMji,
Your reasoning is correct and I have also heard of 'Kasyapa' as a 'parking' gothra. There are conventions where a person can choose his gothra.
Your reasoning is correct and I have also heard of 'Kasyapa' as a 'parking' gothra. There are conventions where a person can choose his gothra.
S
Saab
Guest
kunjuppu,
We are talking of gothra for the one who does not know it. You are talking about one who knows his gothra.
Apples and Oranges, isn't it?
We are talking of gothra for the one who does not know it. You are talking about one who knows his gothra.
Apples and Oranges, isn't it?
S
Saab
Guest
Yes, if you are hell bent on defeating the purpose of gothra.
Actually anyone who does not want to respect our dhaarmic beliefs can do whatever they want with or without heckling at the followers. We simply call them asuras.
Actually anyone who does not want to respect our dhaarmic beliefs can do whatever they want with or without heckling at the followers. We simply call them asuras.
saab,
if i was extending the limits of your patience, it was unintended. i do apologize if it is order to do so.
i was not being flippant. i was referring to the issue of youngsters wishing to tie the knot, and feeling constrained by the doctrine of sahgothra. as you are aware this is a separate thread, and most of the views, were in support of the youngsters, with different approach to the solution. i do not recall anyone opposing the union per se but i may be wrong there.
also, a relative of mine, adopted his maternal nephew, who instantly changed his gothram. i think gothram is a matter of faith. my own is haridh, my maternal grandfather kowsika, and maternal grandmother athreya. so, i think it is fair to say that i have inherited the satvik qualities derived of this gothrams, and when i extrapolate it over a few thousand years, i probably have a sprinkling of all gothrams in a mathematically defined probabilities.
since we are patrilineal societies we have accepted the norm of our father's gothram but as in the instance of adoptions, for example, the person acquiring the gothram, claims immediately a different lineage. but it is ok, because we all have a fair distribution in our genes of all gothrams, and we really do not know what percentage of us is haridh or kowsika.
while i cannot speak for others, it is quite possible 3 generations removed, my ancestor might have been adopted. we do not have written records.
re asuras: asuras to me, as told when i was a child by my aunt, was characters like kamsan, who gave krishna & balaram a hard time. the features, habits and attributes described, i do not think will fit anyone who practices dharmic beliefs in a format different from another.
after all, in this modern world, don't we all compromise on our dharmic beliefs. dharma, as written by the sages, in isolated vanams thousands of years ago, has sometimes been an issue to follow in this day and age. hence we have prayaaschithams and work arounds. we are brahmins, and we above all other groups, should be practising dharma as prescribed in our scriptures. which i can safely say, most of us don't.
ultimately all this matters once we breathe our last. and in line for our rebirth. how much of us can honestly claim to have lived a life which will free us from rebirth? further more, what will we be born as given a choice - knowing fully well that it will not be a brahmin. a human but a dalit? or a dog in the u.s.a. for all practical purpose, the dog has a better life.
again sir, i am not being light or flippant here. but trying to make sense of this world in terms that i can be honest with myself and values. it is not meant to cause hurt and neither should it be considered heckling under any circumstances.
thank you.
if i was extending the limits of your patience, it was unintended. i do apologize if it is order to do so.
i was not being flippant. i was referring to the issue of youngsters wishing to tie the knot, and feeling constrained by the doctrine of sahgothra. as you are aware this is a separate thread, and most of the views, were in support of the youngsters, with different approach to the solution. i do not recall anyone opposing the union per se but i may be wrong there.
also, a relative of mine, adopted his maternal nephew, who instantly changed his gothram. i think gothram is a matter of faith. my own is haridh, my maternal grandfather kowsika, and maternal grandmother athreya. so, i think it is fair to say that i have inherited the satvik qualities derived of this gothrams, and when i extrapolate it over a few thousand years, i probably have a sprinkling of all gothrams in a mathematically defined probabilities.
since we are patrilineal societies we have accepted the norm of our father's gothram but as in the instance of adoptions, for example, the person acquiring the gothram, claims immediately a different lineage. but it is ok, because we all have a fair distribution in our genes of all gothrams, and we really do not know what percentage of us is haridh or kowsika.
while i cannot speak for others, it is quite possible 3 generations removed, my ancestor might have been adopted. we do not have written records.
re asuras: asuras to me, as told when i was a child by my aunt, was characters like kamsan, who gave krishna & balaram a hard time. the features, habits and attributes described, i do not think will fit anyone who practices dharmic beliefs in a format different from another.
after all, in this modern world, don't we all compromise on our dharmic beliefs. dharma, as written by the sages, in isolated vanams thousands of years ago, has sometimes been an issue to follow in this day and age. hence we have prayaaschithams and work arounds. we are brahmins, and we above all other groups, should be practising dharma as prescribed in our scriptures. which i can safely say, most of us don't.
ultimately all this matters once we breathe our last. and in line for our rebirth. how much of us can honestly claim to have lived a life which will free us from rebirth? further more, what will we be born as given a choice - knowing fully well that it will not be a brahmin. a human but a dalit? or a dog in the u.s.a. for all practical purpose, the dog has a better life.
again sir, i am not being light or flippant here. but trying to make sense of this world in terms that i can be honest with myself and values. it is not meant to cause hurt and neither should it be considered heckling under any circumstances.
thank you.
Dear HH Sir,
Just some point that crossed my little mind.......
Faith - Shraddha is a virtue. (Without Shraddha even if he is a deva , he will not discern any subtle truths of our Dharma... Shivapuranam says . )
Shradda- Faith to our Scriptures = Followers
Followers = Blindly or with wisdom follow the scriptures = Result is the same.
Blindness = Is the inherent diesease of every jiva since beginingless time.
Scriptures = Medicine to cure the disease of blindness in a gradual manner of a follower.
Finally "Blind faith" itself is not a bad thing, it is what you have faith or what you follow that determines the effectiveness of the faith.
A blind must trustingly surrender to the Seers. - Utthamam
It is much better than staying blind and drifting. - NEITHER HERE NOR THERE - antharathil thongra mathiri
Worst is trustingly surrendering to another Blind. - Atho gathi
Regards
ps- May I Know to which varna of our order you follow/supposed to follow?
Just some point that crossed my little mind.......
Faith - Shraddha is a virtue. (Without Shraddha even if he is a deva , he will not discern any subtle truths of our Dharma... Shivapuranam says . )
Shradda- Faith to our Scriptures = Followers
Followers = Blindly or with wisdom follow the scriptures = Result is the same.
Blindness = Is the inherent diesease of every jiva since beginingless time.
Scriptures = Medicine to cure the disease of blindness in a gradual manner of a follower.
Finally "Blind faith" itself is not a bad thing, it is what you have faith or what you follow that determines the effectiveness of the faith.
A blind must trustingly surrender to the Seers. - Utthamam
It is much better than staying blind and drifting. - NEITHER HERE NOR THERE - antharathil thongra mathiri
Worst is trustingly surrendering to another Blind. - Atho gathi
Regards
ps- May I Know to which varna of our order you follow/supposed to follow?
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Dear Sri HH!
Is "desire" that frightful? what is the use in being desireless - anyway one can desire anything like desiring to become desireless.
Regards
Is "desire" that frightful? what is the use in being desireless - anyway one can desire anything like desiring to become desireless.
Regards
Dear HH sir,
Understanding desire is not a big thing - "I want ... " Simple , nothing more than this. How you say that when you understand the nagging "i want ..." will vanish.
Re ida-pingala - I just read about it , so my knowledge is only bookish. But in puranas there are many stories of siddhas succumb to desire. Have you read puranas?
this multitude ways to reach god are all acceptable only upto certain level. after that they all have to converge - to one way. Anyway we as followers of the scriptures our path is not multiple but as prescribed by scriptures. The stake is very high , so wisey consider ...
To me the historical facts correlate or doesn't is not important at all. To me one should definetly reach the ashore by making use of the human birth. anything other than this is meaningless and he is only wasting his chance.
What I asked is to what Jathi you belong? All the Jathi's are very very important and I don't see any superior and inferior in that. But if you say that you belong to siddha family then just leave it. Fanning the complexes between jathis,gender is the worst thing happened to our culture - I believe.
Regards
Understanding desire is not a big thing - "I want ... " Simple , nothing more than this. How you say that when you understand the nagging "i want ..." will vanish.
Re ida-pingala - I just read about it , so my knowledge is only bookish. But in puranas there are many stories of siddhas succumb to desire. Have you read puranas?
this multitude ways to reach god are all acceptable only upto certain level. after that they all have to converge - to one way. Anyway we as followers of the scriptures our path is not multiple but as prescribed by scriptures. The stake is very high , so wisey consider ...
To me the historical facts correlate or doesn't is not important at all. To me one should definetly reach the ashore by making use of the human birth. anything other than this is meaningless and he is only wasting his chance.
What I asked is to what Jathi you belong? All the Jathi's are very very important and I don't see any superior and inferior in that. But if you say that you belong to siddha family then just leave it. Fanning the complexes between jathis,gender is the worst thing happened to our culture - I believe.
Regards
Sri HH,
Paramsivan Pathiyele Deviyai vaithan
Antha Parmaguru rendu pakkam deviyai vaithan
Parkadalil Madhavano Nenjinil vaithan
Ennamma, athu ennama?
So there are 2 levels of desire, one is for impermanent thing and the other for permanent thing - All this you didn't make it clear in your previous post. Now you start questioning me - Poor me! how can I know which level you are relating? - So pardon me
Regards
Paramsivan Pathiyele Deviyai vaithan
Antha Parmaguru rendu pakkam deviyai vaithan
Parkadalil Madhavano Nenjinil vaithan
Ennamma, athu ennama?
So there are 2 levels of desire, one is for impermanent thing and the other for permanent thing - All this you didn't make it clear in your previous post. Now you start questioning me - Poor me! how can I know which level you are relating? - So pardon me
Regards
githras
helo
gothrams sagothrams ae called a relationofsame paternal decendancy. hence they come in the listof prohibitive marigage. But n exemption is thtin 7 sevengeneratioin the relative deccendancy is not found then sagotra mariage are aceaptable. Medicalyitis stated tht the chromosomes x and y necesary to decide progeny is affectaed in sagaothras.
Butwhat is necesary is the aceptance of mind. If love is ubmlime then gothras reead to backseat.
prabhakaran.
helo
gothrams sagothrams ae called a relationofsame paternal decendancy. hence they come in the listof prohibitive marigage. But n exemption is thtin 7 sevengeneratioin the relative deccendancy is not found then sagotra mariage are aceaptable. Medicalyitis stated tht the chromosomes x and y necesary to decide progeny is affectaed in sagaothras.
Butwhat is necesary is the aceptance of mind. If love is ubmlime then gothras reead to backseat.
prabhakaran.
Hi I'm new to this forum. But here is my two cents.
I remember distinctly reading that the main purpose for sagothra marriages not being allowed is because our ancestors took a much larger "transmigratory view" rather than a pure genetic view (not to say that the genetic one is not important). Essentially, it is believed that people who have been blood relations in one birth continue to be reborn (in case the birth is a human one) across 7 life-times in the same gothra. So a sagothra marriage would potentially have "incestous undercurrents". This system also ensured that the inter-personal karmic-debt ("Rnanubandhana") got played-out appropriately.
In that sense converting the gothra of a person just to get married is a form of "cheating"
I remember distinctly reading that the main purpose for sagothra marriages not being allowed is because our ancestors took a much larger "transmigratory view" rather than a pure genetic view (not to say that the genetic one is not important). Essentially, it is believed that people who have been blood relations in one birth continue to be reborn (in case the birth is a human one) across 7 life-times in the same gothra. So a sagothra marriage would potentially have "incestous undercurrents". This system also ensured that the inter-personal karmic-debt ("Rnanubandhana") got played-out appropriately.
In that sense converting the gothra of a person just to get married is a form of "cheating"
1. 'Gothras' serve the purpose of identifying one's pedigree or ancestral line and nothing
else.
2. Before how many generations, people of same 'gothras' had common parents is a
matter open to dispute.
3. In the present modern age, let us not break our heads on such matters, because
more obnoxious things happen and they shall be stopped first. Turn your attention
in that direction. (Understand what I say?)
4. In case of adoption, whose 'gothra' a child will assume - biological father's or
foster father's?
5. It must be welcome and encouraged if people do anything transparently and with
the knowledge of elders around. We cannot quote some ancient scriptures for
everything and stop evolutions - immoral relationships excepted.
6. I don't see any harm in a foreigner adopting an 'Indian gothra', out of belief and
conviction, but not out of convenience and sheer necessity!
else.
2. Before how many generations, people of same 'gothras' had common parents is a
matter open to dispute.
3. In the present modern age, let us not break our heads on such matters, because
more obnoxious things happen and they shall be stopped first. Turn your attention
in that direction. (Understand what I say?)
4. In case of adoption, whose 'gothra' a child will assume - biological father's or
foster father's?
5. It must be welcome and encouraged if people do anything transparently and with
the knowledge of elders around. We cannot quote some ancient scriptures for
everything and stop evolutions - immoral relationships excepted.
6. I don't see any harm in a foreigner adopting an 'Indian gothra', out of belief and
conviction, but not out of convenience and sheer necessity!
- Status
