Engagement

[krish44]

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Many brahmin families go through Engagement ceremonies in arranged marriages prior to marriage sometimes calling many and celebrating with pomp and show .

The marriage takes place a few months later giving ample time to both parties to have a rethink in many cases of going ahead with marriage ceremonies.

This leads to broken engagements leading to heart break on both sides besides financial losses and loss of face in society

recently I am coming across so many cases of such people .

It becomes very difficult in some cases to find alternate grooms/ brides for such youngsters.

Our society looks down on these persons and not many come forward to accept them for marriage

Many times , I feel , engagement [ essentially a promise to marry later] can be private with boy and girl with parents and one or two very close relations with just an exchange

of ceremonial vetthalai pakku and nothing more so that it provides the backout alternative with no damage to both.

all this prohithar and religion can be kept out of it

alternatively engagement can be just a week or ten day s before marriage so that risks of such incidents happenings can be minimised

the reasons for break down are mostly because of either boy/girl backing out after one or two transactions with each other post engagement,past relationships

of either party, different perceptions , expectations of parents of either side or sometimes one of the parties finding a better alliance after engagement.

I have found even mishaps like death of a parent or near one is made an excuse for walking out of an alliance as the prospective bride is held responsible for it

There is no protection or insurance regarding a relationship going sour.

Arranged marriages are risky these days. pre marriage risks are more than post marriage with unknown parties. Now we have to decide which is lesser evil

marriage or engagement

 

[renuka]

Frankly speaking I feel engagement should be scraped off becos you opening yourself to risk of ebing dumped and that too after advertising to the whole world that you got engaged and then marriage does not take place will be the ultimate slap on the face.

That is why when I got engaged I also got registered married on the same day..in fact I got registered married in the morning and got engaged in the evening and the temple marriage was 6 months later.

That was a safe deal...becos when one is legally married..the engagement cant break!LOL

 

[Vaagmi]

I think the engagement ceremony plays an important role in a Brahmin marriage. So it should be retained.

In arranged marriages an engagement gives freedom to the boy and girl to meet and interact. Thus they get an opportunity to better understand each other.

The fact that it results in a rethink and breakup is not sufficient reason to give it up.

There is no crime attached to a broken engagement as the fallout can be managed unlike in a broken marriage.

Of course in love marriages this engagement can be dispensed with as the metrics are different there.

 

[krish44]

even many in india when they find a foreign groom combine engagement with marriage registration and have a regular marriage with religeous rites later .

I got invitations to some marriages of this type.

Some experiences I faced are dates of marriage getting postponed due to death of a relative or parent .in case of death of parent , the marriage itself was in doubt and

it took place because of wisdom of the groom who refused to back out and go ahead.

we even had a marriage which took place when an old relative who had come to attend became sick the evening before and died on the way to hospital. we had the

marriage and funeral on the same day at different places in town

In case of youngsters , the marrying couple broke up after an outing since they could not agree on most things after engagement

now I believe any engagement should be informal and religeous ceremony if any should be the day before marriage

of course there are the usual risks in organising a marriage without firm commitment . it is better than a broken engagement and consequences there off

 

[Vaagmi]

There is no religious rituals in a engagement. It is just formally coming to an agreement.

 

[Raji Ram]

Major problem: Not many give respect to what they promise! :tsk:

Shall join soon in this thead with different stories - real NOT reel!!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

As far as Iyers are concerned, it is not fully a social get together; and partially religious also. Engagement is generally being performed in the Bridegroom's house. Family Shastrigal from both sides will attend and lead the function.

Though it is not like Aswamedayaga of Ramanaya type, for Iyers, it has some religious fervour also.

 

[krish44]

there is no difference in iyer -iyengar in engagement procedures.

so both face the same issues.and risks

 

[vgane]

The time period between engagement and marriage is worth debating..I have known cases where marriage is fixed almost 10 months after the engagement because either the girl is studying or the boy has taken a new job , is working abroad and can come home only after a particular period when he is eligible for leave..I personally feel we should not have the gap more than 3 months as in such cases rethink is possible. Lesser the gap, the better it is for both the bride & bride groom..The understanding period becomes a period of unnecessary poking and investigation which may turn sour

 

[krish44]

I have seen engagements breaking down for even f petty reasons and in ego clashes.

one party believers in ahobila mutt wanted the marriage in one of the halls of the mutt only though it was far away suburb of chennai. another wanted a change of date

from a boy going on a foreign posting with a fixed committed time frame which was not possible . another backed out because girl side tried checking the antecedents of a foreign groom after

engagement and boys side came to know about it and cancelled it out of ego issues and girl side snooping on them. A girl backed out because she found a job after

engagement offering a salary 50 percent more than the boy. another girl said no since the boy wanted to date her and take her out before marriage which was not

acceptable to girl/girls parents who were very traditional.

the most recent one of breakdown was most interesting . the girls mother became suddenly bedridden and the daughter being the only child felt she owed it to her

mother to nurse her indefinitely.the boys side was prepared to wait for a year or so . still she preferred to walkout and leave the boy hanging with a bad name and

broken engagement.I could see the dilemma of the girl. But she damaged the boy . she claimed , this was a better solution as both are then free to make their choices,

damn the engagement.

many times career takes a priority over marriage for many boys and girls . all have a foreign education /job bait for calling off a settled match.

with all these uncertain scenario , vganeji suggestion of minimum gap between engagement if any and marriage is worth considering

 

[Raji Ram]

The time period between engagement and marriage is worth debating..I have known cases where marriage is fixed almost 10 months after the engagement because either the girl is studying or the boy has taken a new job , is working abroad and can come home only after a particular period when he is eligible for leave..I personally feel we should not have the gap more than 3 months as in such cases rethink is possible. Lesser the gap, the better it is for both the bride & bride groom..The understanding period becomes a period of unnecessary poking and investigation which may turn sour

Dear Ganesh,

The idea of 'Engagement ceremony' is to show that the search is OVER and heave a sigh of relief!

Both the bride's and the groom's parents have to exchange 'Lagna pathrikai' duly signed by a senior member of the family.

Many consider this as 'Half of the wedding'. After all, the major expenses are borne by the grooms side and that is the time

for them to show off and so some jewels are presented to the bride. Silver items are given to the groom in addition to mutual

gifts of new dresses. Video and photos are also a must. The engaged couple pose for a photo session too! Usually a period of

six months is needed to fix a good wedding hall and make other arrangements, even if it is an upper middle class wedding.

BTW, all the poking and investigations should STOP once the engagement is over. They are to be done prior to this!

 

[krish44]

RRJi

You are describing what is done in a traditional marriage

These are hardly acceptable in view of the risks involved when there is a long period of wait between engagement and marriage.

there needs to be a change in this for protection of youngsters/families with rising growth in failed engagements.

then these wedding halls holding all to ransom with fancy rates and six month wait times .

This is a time for introspection .

Should we do away with all this and hope for sanity in engagement and marriage.

 

[vgane]

Dear Ganesh,

The idea of 'Engagement ceremony' is to show that the search is OVER and heave a sigh of relief!

Both the bride's and the groom's parents have to exchange 'Lagna pathrikai' duly signed by a senior member of the family.

Many consider this as 'Half of the wedding'. After all, the major expenses are borne by the grooms side and that is the time

for them to show off and so some jewels are presented to the bride. Silver items are given to the groom in addition to mutual

gifts of new dresses. Video and photos are also a must. The engaged couple pose for a photo session too! Usually a period of

six months is needed to fix a good wedding hall and make other arrangements, even if it is an upper middle class wedding.

BTW, all the poking and investigations should STOP once the engagement is over. They are to be done prior to this!

The expenses in engagement are avoidable! Let it be a family function! My sisters engagement in the 80's was done with just 4 persons from our side..A typical engagement should not be more than 25 persons..10-12 each from both the sides..Our community has to learn to be frugal ...You can save this money for better things in life! Understand big halls like Raghavendra are booked up to 6-9 months in advance! But why go for such mandapams...I went for a marriage in this madapam 2 years back..There were just 100 persons in the marriage...Reception we had about 250 persons..You still do not require this space..It was just for show off..Money could have been spent some where else!

 

[kunjuppu]

personally, i think, even with a vathyar around, the engagement ceremony is an announcement of a public contract. isn't that what the lagna pathrikai is all about... announcing that the girl daughter of so and so, grand daughter of so so and so is engaged to be joined in marriage with the boy etc etc. with the decisions of the elders ?

so, to break an engagement, i feel, is breaking a contract.

we are not yet in the stage of going to court to ask for damages or enforce the contract. yet. soon you'll find one. i wouldn't be too surprised.

an engagement, is a legal contract, announcing to the world that two folks are going to get married. period.

 

[krish44]

The expenses in engagement are avoidable! Let it be a family function! My sisters engagement in the 80's was done with just 4 persons from our side..A typical engagement should not be more than 25 persons..10-12 each from both the sides..Our community has to learn to be frugal ...You can save this money for better things in life! Understand big halls like Raghavendra are booked up to 6-9 months in advance! But why go for such mandapams...I went for a marriage in this madapam 2 years back..There were just 100 persons in the marriage...Reception we had about 250 persons..You still do not require this space..It was just for show off..Money could have been spent some where else!

Vganeji
How many can think like you.?

you have to be applauded.

Having a engagement with 10-15 persons total and marriage with 100 persons and reception with 250 persons there about in small halls is ideal.

one can definitely utilise the money saved and give it to the couple to kick start their married life.

another way is have marriage with only relatives and few close friends in smaller towns with religeous significance such as kumbakonam or srirangam and reception

one evening in place like chennai or bangalore if one is located there for work.Even adding travel cost it is excellent economics.

Even in delhi ,there are excellent govt halls available with all amenities for a throw away price as they are subsidised.

I have tried these options with the numbers specified and they have worked excellently for me.I have no regrets that I have spent less on ceremony proper and

funded the couple for useful household items for their use instead.

when this wisdom will come to people?

 

[sangom]

The engagement function served yet another purpose in the olden days. Even though it used to be held mostly in the groom's house only (no hall, buffet dinner etc.), the elders from both the sides (bride's and groom's) used to be present in this ceremony. I can recall many instances of orthodox vaideeki brahmanas who would not attend the marriage conducted in a public hall, but would not mind gracing the nischayadaartham in the house of the brahmin bridegroom. This gave an opportunity for those senior citizens to meet and exchange notes and views about their respective side (bride/groom) and this served as a great reassuring measure for both sides. Of course, I am talking of the olden days.

 

[krish44]

personally, i think, even with a vathyar around, the engagement ceremony is an announcement of a public contract. isn't that what the lagna pathrikai is all about... announcing that the girl daughter of so and so, grand daughter of so so and so is engaged to be joined in marriage with the boy etc etc. with the decisions of the elders ?

so, to break an engagement, i feel, is breaking a contract.

we are not yet in the stage of going to court to ask for damages or enforce the contract. yet. soon you'll find one. i wouldn't be too surprised.

an engagement, is a legal contract, announcing to the world that two folks are going to get married. period.

It is a public contract more in breach increasingly than honouring.

who would like the stigma of going to court?

when such a breach took place in family of someone I know, the aggrieved party consulted a lawyer who made a list of what was given and returned and getting a letter signed by both parties

that the it was called off by mutual consent to avoid trouble later.

I thought it was wise of both parties -girl and boys family to do that.

Only there was a bitter taste left behind in both parties

 

[krish44]

The engagement function served yet another purpose in the olden days. Even though it used to be held mostly in the groom's house only (no hall, buffet dinner etc.), the elders from both the sides (bride's and groom's) used to be present in this ceremony. I can recall many instances of orthodox vaideeki brahmanas who would not attend the marriage conducted in a public hall, but would not mind gracing the nischayadaartham in the house of the brahmin bridegroom. This gave an opportunity for those senior citizens to meet and exchange notes and views about their respective side (bride/groom) and this served as a great reassuring measure for both sides. Of course, I am talking of the olden days.

I found the remarks of presence of elders of both sides in engagement interesting

In one wedding of a non brahmin community I attended, there was a ceremony of introducing elder relatives of each others family like uncle of boy and girl introduced

to each other and others with similar relationships in both families.I thought it made both parties comfortable with each other in the wedding.

in our community , the presence of prospective groom is not considered necessary at engagement , though no one observes it these days.I did not attend my

engagement ceremony when I got married.lol. That was forty years back .We were not orthodox either but we observed the rules laid down . we were obedient boys.lol

 

[V.Balasubramani]

personally, i think, even with a vathyar around, the engagement ceremony is an announcement of a public contract. isn't that what the lagna pathrikai is all about... announcing that the girl daughter of so and so, grand daughter of so so and so is engaged to be joined in marriage with the boy etc etc. with the decisions of the elders ?

so, to break an engagement, i feel, is breaking a contract.

we are not yet in the stage of going to court to ask for damages or enforce the contract. yet. soon you'll find one. i wouldn't be too surprised.

an engagement, is a legal contract, announcing to the world that two folks are going to get married. period.

Sir,

You are right.

The said 'Lagna Patrika' which will be executed in black and white will be signed by the parents of both the bride and groom and read out to all the participants by the Vadhyar. It is considered as a commitment by both the parties and they stick to that.

So it is legal document and any break in the engagement at a later date, is nothing but breach of contract/trust as you said.

Only in rarest of rare cases such breach of trust/contract takes place.

 

[krish44]

The thread is about increasing broken engagements

ideas on how to transact will be more useful than denying it and passing it off as rarest of the rare.

it is an ostrich attitude.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

The thread is about increasing broken engagements

ideas on how to transact will be more useful than denying it and passing it off as rarest of the rare.

it is an ostrich attitude.

The thread is about breaking engagement.

I have been attending number of engagements and weddings.

And never come across any broken engagement so for which is nothing but an illusion IMO.

While the fact remains so, where comes the question of increasein breaking engagement. Lol

There may be isolated incidents which is nothing but ‘rarest of rare’ case not worth the trouble for serious discussion.

In my opinion, when there is no increase why bother about solution.

Since you opened the thread can you prove statistically that there is increase in breaking engagements? The onus is with you. Will you do it? I insist authenticated data.

It is nothing but making a hill out of a mole attitude.

We are just fighting against nothing.

It has become a hobby for sitting ducks to come out with new philosophies everyday and this Forum is comfortable platform where one can write anything without any basis.

 

[Raji Ram]

The expenses in engagement are avoidable! Let it be a family function! My sisters engagement in the 80's was done with just 4 persons from our side..A typical engagement should not be more than 25 persons..10-12 each from both the sides..Our community has to learn to be frugal ...You can save this money for better things in life! Understand big halls like Raghavendra are booked up to 6-9 months in advance! But why go for such mandapams...I went for a marriage in this madapam 2 years back..There were just 100 persons in the marriage...Reception we had about 250 persons..You still do not require this space..It was just for show off..Money could have been spent some where else!

Not all the parents think like this, Ganesh!

Some girls are smart and pray to get married in a particular temple, to reduce the expenses of their parents. But most of the girls

want a lavish wedding. The flower decoration on stage / each session costs in lakhs, in Bangalore. I have attended such weddings!

In our extended family, the sambandhis were from the U S of A and wished for a very simple, Arya samAj type wedding. Only two

six yards sarees for the bride and two kurthA sets for the groom; no seer bakshaNam; no exchange of gift dresses; and only 50

persons in total to attend the wedding. We felt bad not to invite members from extended family and friends and so gave a reception

for about 300 persons, in a hotel, in the evening.

Way back in 60s, my maternal chithappA conducted the wedding of his brother at home, since the bride was their 'akkA poNNu'.

He said that Lord Guruvayoorappan will be witness for the wedding and there is no need for any other family member!

 

[Raji Ram]

personally, i think, even with a vathyar around, the engagement ceremony is an announcement of a public contract. isn't that what the lagna pathrikai is all about... announcing that the girl daughter of so and so, grand daughter of so so and so is engaged to be joined in marriage with the boy etc etc. with the decisions of the elders ?

so, to break an engagement, i feel, is breaking a contract.

we are not yet in the stage of going to court to ask for damages or enforce the contract. yet. soon you'll find one. i wouldn't be too surprised.

an engagement, is a legal contract, announcing to the world that two folks are going to get married. period.

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

Some people don't respect these contracts and stop the wedding. All the probing should END once the engagement is over.

No one is perfect in this world and some people refuse to accept this. Very sad indeed!

My lawyer brother-in-law says sadly that some couples fix the appointment date with the family court, soon after booking the wedding hall!

 

[mkrishna100]

Only in rarest of rare cases such breach of trust/contract takes place.

I do not know the statistics but I do agree that after engagement not many people break the contract but in these days of Internet /FB with its frequent exchange of messages and boys and girls regularly mixing and going together out regularly after engagement ends up in both of them knowing how much they are incompatible ( among the couples and amond the MIL and DIL ) and many decide to call of their marriage mutually citing incompatibility . So there is a mutual sort of divorce before the marriage takes place .

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I do not know the statistics but I do agree that after engagement not many people break the contract but in these days of Internet /FB with its frequent exchange of messages and boys and girls regularly mixing and going together out regularly after engagement ends up in both of them knowing how much they are incompatible ( among the couples and amond the MIL and DIL ) and many decide to call of their marriage mutually citing incompatibility . So there is a mutual sort of divorce before the marriage takes place .

Sir,

Before entering into an engagement, all stages would be covered carefully including the mutual consent of the bride and groom, horoscope matching, negotiations, all other terms and conditions, etc etc

And once the engagement is arranged, it is every ones commitment to honour it.

Both the sensible parents know pretty well that dishonouring such a commitment will attract sufferings, both physical and mental, besides the social humiliation, loss of reputation and standing in the society, etc. In such important issues parents will exhibit utmost maturity in all their acts.

No எடுத்தேன், கவுத்தேன் act.

My point is that it does happens (in one or two cases now and then) definitely not as alarmingly as projected in the op.

In this Forum some Members do change their mind and stand often according to their mood likewise, chances are that there may be boys, girls and parents too, change their mind after the engagement.