Dr. B.R. Ambedkar

[Nara]

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Today is Dr. B.R. Ambedkar's birthday. If only he was not a Dalit and not a noble and fearless advocate for justice he would be feted by everyone in India, not just the Dalits and politicians. Please take a look at what he had to say and think whether it makes any sense.

Introduction | The Annihilation of Caste - Dr. B. R. Ambedkar

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Today is Dr. B.R. Ambedkar's birthday. If only he was not a Dalit and not a noble and fearless advocate for justice he would be feted by everyone in India, not just the Dalits and politicians. Please take a look at what he had to say and think whether it makes any sense.

Introduction | The Annihilation of Caste - Dr. B. R. Ambedkar

Cheers!

Prof Nara ji,

Personally I have highest regards for Dr.Ambedkar.

But Neither Dr Ambedkar nor his followers have given effective leadership to the dalith community for their overall development.

Today one of the followers of DR Ambedkar is heading the largest state of the country - Ms.Mayavati in Uttarpradesh.

It is an open secret that Ms.Mayavathi was supported by UP Brahmins in the last election who constitute approx 13% of UP population. Upper caste Thakurs and muslims have also played a key role in electing Ms.Mayavathi as Chief Minister. More details are available in the following web link.

Satish Chandra Mishra, the man who sent Uttar Pradesh to Maya's way - Instablogs

My question is whether Ms.Mayavathi is really working for the upliftment of daliths?

Successive dalith leaders have not done anything worthwhile to the community after getting elected with their support.

Mayavathi is one of the highest tax payers in the country and is suppose to possess Rs.6000 crores of assets.

Why Mayawati flaunts cash | Deccan Chronicle | 2010-03-26

www.outlookindia.com | Where Are The Balladeers?

But people below poverty line in Uttar Pradesh has not come down. Most of these people belong to dalith community only.

In the neighboring Bihar, her counter part Mr.Nitish Kumar seems to do a wonderful job in developing the state. Bihar is also one of the most backward states in the country which is now seeing real development for the first time after several decades of misrule. Mr.Nithish Kumar is a backward class leader.

My point is, including Dr Ambedkar, all the dalith leaders have failed to deliver for their community. They very much played caste politics and exploited their votes but ultimately enriched themselves without lifting their community.

Daliths have not come out of their poverty by supporting political parties including their own outfits or by changing religion. Their situation continues to be pathetic

It is high time real leaders who can up lift the daliths emerge at the earliest.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Greetings!

....My point is, including Dr Ambedkar, all the dalith leaders have failed to deliver for their community. They very much played caste politics and exploited their votes but ultimately enriched themselves without lifting their community.

If BRA is a failure for Dalits, then Gandhi is a failure for Vaishyas, Rajaji is a failure for Brahmins, Kamaraj is a failure for Nadars, and so on. IMO, imprisoning BRA into a caste jail is a reflection of one's own caste feelings, no more.

Was BRA a failure for Dalit? We can look for answers from several perspectives, economic, educational, social, etc. Progress in all these areas is important, but what the Dalits crave most is self-respect. This is why the term சுய மரியாதை finds a great deal of resonance among Dalits. In that respect BRA succeeded like no other politician. He awakened the Dalits to their own innate self-worth. They are no less a human being than even the exalted of Chatur Vedic Brahmin. A little empathy will make us understand why the realization that their forefathers have been crushed makes them angry. It is a wonder worthy of our appreciation that they are able to channel this anger through rhetoric, sometimes harsh, and not resort to whole scale violence like what is going on in the MOU mineral belt in the heart of the country led by the Naxalites.

On the educational front, they have made great strides. Unleashed from the tight controls imposed on them, their intellectual contributions are piling on. Here again BRA stands out as a role model for what can be achieved if only opportunity is provided to the Dalits.

Even if we consider economic uplift of Dalits, the movement started by BRA has been a roaring success. Compared to where they were during BRA's time, today Dalits are rising in all fields despite the age old contempt heaped on them.

Is the job done? Of course not, they still woefully lag the upper "community" in all respects. But it is undeniable that they have come a long way since the days of Ambedkar. Whatever progress that has been achieved is to a large part due to BRA making sure the Dalit issues are not swept under the rug by the upper-"community".

So, even if BRA is viewed through the narrow lens of "community" an euphemism for caste, he has delivered for the Dalits in all counts, more than Gandhi or Rajaji or other upper community (i.e. upper caste) leaders celebrated in India.

It is very curious to talk about Dalit leaders enriching themselves without delivering for their "community". First of all, which other caste leader or politician did not enrich himself/herself? Starting from our own JJ and M.K. to Narasimha Rao, Deve Gowda, Lalu, the list goes on. If Mayavati out did all others, she was only following a long tradition established by the upper community, no? I hear from everyone that it is Brahmins who helped elect her. Then, Brahmins are responsible for her corruption, no? Why are they continuing to support her?

I condemn corruption irrespective of who is involved. But this is just a straw man. April 14th was BRA's birthday. He was a great Indian. Let us remember him on his birthday. He was a great Indian irrespective of the corruption of all the upper, middle, lower, and lowest caste, ahem, community. Let us recognize his dignity for just a few moments on this one day without bringing corrupt politicians into the mix.

Finally, the plight of Dalits is not a problem of just Dalits, it is a problem for the entire community and I use this word community as it is supposed to be used, a community that includes all of us. Bharathi said, சண்டையிட்டாலும் சகோதரர் அன்றோ, and we now separate the Dalits as though they are an insular group and must fend for themselves. They are called broken people, broken by the broader upper caste. So, their uplift is a collective responsibility. Any failure to help them realize their full potential is a failure of the upper caste more than their own.

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

Today is Dr. B.R. Ambedkar's birthday. If only he was not a Dalit and not a noble and fearless advocate for justice he would be feted by everyone in India, not just the Dalits and politicians. Please take a look at what he had to say and think whether it makes any sense.

I read this. Actually, BRA is appreciated by the FC whom he criticised prior to independence. Many dalits have probably not read or understood the thrust of BRAs message - equality and fraternity among people. They are easily misled by the politicians. Not that BRA is factually correct on all matters. Like others, he also had his limitations. But his central message is laudable. Here are some of his quotes and my comments.

"The assurance of a Socialist leading the revolution that he does not believe in Caste, I am sure will not suffice. The assurance must be the assurance proceeding from a much deeper foundation—namely, the mental attitude of the compatriots towards one another in their spirit of personal equality and fraternity"

Today the FC agrees but it has not happened since the government, judiciary and the press do not care. They represent the people who have only become more embittered with each generation at the FC. Rather than fraternity, passion and hatred is being inflamed and BRA is being used for this purpose.
　

"The division of labour brought about by the Caste System is not a division based on choice. Individual sentiment, individual preference, has no place in it. It is based on the dogma of predestination."

Yes, today this is called reservation. By means of various constitutional amendments, predestination is implemented.
　

"The existence of Caste and Caste Consciousness has served to keep the memory of past feuds between castes green, and has prevented solidarity."

Annual events celebrated by mob leaders in the name of Ambedkar and others will ensure that past caste feuds are only strengthened with each passing day.
　

"Caste has made public opinion impossible."

We know. Try to offer a differing opinion that disagrees with the majority castes even when they are blatantly wrong and you will find out. Ask advocate Vijayan.
　

"A Hindu's public is his caste. His responsibility is only to his caste. His loyalty is restricted only to his caste. Virtue has become caste-ridden, and morality has become caste-bound. There is no sympathy for the deserving. There is no appreciation of the meritorious. There is no charity to the needy. Suffering as such calls for no response. There is charity, but it begins with the caste and ends with the caste. There is sympathy, but not for men of other castes."

Absolutely! Ambedkar-ji, you have said the same things that people on this forum are saying about almost all the state governments run by the BC for the BC.
　

"It is obvious that those individuals also in whose favour there is birth, education, family name, business connections, and inherited wealth, would be selected in the race. But selection under such circumstances would not be a selection of the able. It would be the selection of the privileged."

　
Wonderful! Good reminder for people to realize that birth is only ONE of the factors of privilege. This will come as a revelation to even our Supreme Court judges who keep passing 'judgements' considering only birth-based caste. The poor from the FC are still waiting for justice. BRA would have been on their side had he been alive today.　
　

　
　

 

[Nara]

Greetings folks!

Why does the mere mention of BRA brings the long knives out? Some say he let "his" people down and was a failure. Others want to do shadow boxing with him. In another forum there was a fellow who wished pigeons would do their job on all the statues of BRA around the country.

Why such visceral animosity for a man who only continued a great tradition of intellectual opposition to the varna system so revered by the upper caste? When EVR condemned Rama for beheading Shambuka, BRA felt it was wrong to do so for Rama was only following a system. He thought we must spend our energies to eradicate this system.

Slowly freeing from centuries of oppression, Dalits want to publicly celebrate a great intellect who rose from their midst. They want to show the world that given the opportunity they too can scale great intellectual heights. Why should this irk the so called FCs? Why should their honoring of a great Indian leader, BRA, be seen as promoting hatred? In fact, a very good case can be made that by not joining in such celebration it is the FCs who show hatred.

BRA wanted the annihilation of caste. He wanted social reform to precede political reform for he knew the former will become more difficult to achieve if it is relegated to second priority. Yet, that is exactly what the great Congress leaders of the time, Tilak, Gandhi, et al. did. Now, we are stuck with deeply ingrained caste divisions in our politics. All these FCs who fought against social reform are now decrying casteism and blaming of all people BRA and Dalits for it, because they are unable to get admission in medical college for free. By the time the British left more than 90% of the top posts in the state government were held by Brahmins. At that time, Brahmins were not complaining about caste hatred. Even as late as the 1960s, Brahmins did not have any difficulty getting admission anywhere they wanted. There was no complaint about the uppity Dalits then.

Here is a series of questions BRA asks the FCs about the need for social reform preceding political reform.

"Are you fit for political power even though you do not allow a large class of your own countrymen like the untouchables to use public schools? Are you fit for political power even though you do not allow them the use of public wells? Are you fit for political power even though you do not allow them the use of public streets? Are you fit for political power even though you do not allow them to wear what apparel or ornaments they like? Are you fit for political power even though you do not allow them to eat any food they like?" I can ask a string of such questions. But these will suffice.
​

The sad fact is, these practices still continue in many parts of Tamilnadu.

FCs were quite happy with caste based discrimination just as long as it benefited them. When the tables are turned, they are crying fowl. FCs now see BRA celebrated and see hatred in it, but want to take no responsibility for the hatred heaped upon the Dalits for centuries, and worse yet, continue to extol the very varna system that produced these vile practices as though it was just a few misguided people who distorted the otherwise admirable system.

thank you ...

 

[Iyest]

Here is a series of questions BRA asks the FCs about the need for social reform preceding political reform. ...

Please do not distort history and what BRA said. His questions were never directed ONLY at FC. There was no category called FC prior to Indpendence. The caste examples given by BRA will translate into FC, BC and MBC in today's reservation raj.

The sad fact is, these practices still continue in many parts of Tamilnadu. ...

Step 2 in the bogus propaganda. Make a false premise that BRA spoke against only FC. Then add that these things still continue today, implying that these are committed by FC. In fact if you care to look at the perpetrators of crimes against Dalits, you will find most of the accused to be BC and hardly any FC over the past few decades in TN.

FCs were quite happy with caste based discrimination just as long as it benefited them. ...

There are many examples and leaders who were unhappy but you wouldn't know. The speech BRA made was in Lahore and he begins by expressing his surprise at being invited to speak to a gathering of caste Hindu leaders. In sharp contrast, EVR could never develop any maturity in all his 80 plus years to allow brahmins to join his DK party.

When the tables are turned, they are crying fowl.

This is an admission of guilt. That there is discrimination against FC today committed by others. Only it is somehow to be justified based on the past. Further it contradicts the earlier statement of wanting to anhialate caste and exposes the simple fact that ALL castes are bound to exploit others when they rule, not just certain castes.

FCs now see BRA celebrated and see hatred in it, ...

Another bogus claim.

but want to take no responsibility for the hatred heaped upon the Dalits for centuries, ...

Yawn! It is now over half a century since exploitation of dalits has been acknowledged in writing and many steps have been taken. Half a century is also long enough for even the most backward idiot to see that ruling castes in power always exploit the other castes, regardless of whether the rulers are brahmins or dalits. No caste is without sin here.

and worse yet, continue to extol the very varna system that produced these vile practices as though it was just a few misguided people who distorted the otherwise admirable system.

By this logic, the philosophy and principles of BRA is also vile because certain people using his name or belonging to his caste have distorted what he said and exploited others.

 

[saidevo]

Here are some more facts about BRA:

From the Tamil book 'Dalits and Brahmins' authored by the senior journalist K.C.LakShminArAyaNan:

• Dr.B.R.Ambedkar is adored as the god of Dalits all over India. What many people do not know is that there were three brahmins who played a key role in his life. They were:

‣ His school teacher BhImA Rao, whose name AmbedkAr added as a prefix to his name;

‣ KRShNAji Arjun Keluskar, who read and appreciated AmbedkAr's books, introduced him to the Baroda King SAyAji Rao GaekvAd, which was a timely help for the young crusader against untouchability;

‣ Dr.ShArada who treated him in a Mumbai hospital. AmbedkAr took this woman as his second wife, after his first wife RamAbAi died young.

From a review of Arun Shorie's book 'Worshipping False Gods':
INDOlink Book & Media Review :Worshipping False Gods

Shourie's allegations against Ambedkar are as follows:
• that he staunchly opposed Congress till as late as 1946
• that he was willing stooge of British Government
• that he was not the Father of the Constitution as it is commonly claimed though nevertheless his contribution is substantial

Shourie emphatically proves everyone of these allegation and relies on published records on Ambedkar's and the Viceroy's speeches , correspondences etc. and the events per se.

• That he staunchly opposed the Congress requires no more proof than the fact that Ambedkar was Ambedkar...his vitriolic statements against Gandhi and Nehru in fact serve as the License for Kanshi Ram and Mayawati to do the same. His statements are sometimes too vitriolic for a man of his perceived stature... things like " The Soceity is ruled by the Brahmin and the Bania..." ostensibly referring to Nehru and Gandhi and goes on to proclaim that The Bania is like a blood sucking creature on the society.

• Today Ambedkar is seen as a messiah of the Dalits but then he was nothing more than a stooge of the British... an instrument of the British Policy of divide and rule.

‣ All this so amply clear when Lithglow talks of 'Strengthening the hands of A so that it may be to our advantage'.

‣ Can you believe that this messiah was never an elected representative of the Dalits. He could win only one of the reserved seats(Leave alone the General Seats) in the Provincial elections when the Congress was repeatedly sweeping the polls before and after Independence.

‣ Ambedkar was appointed by only the British as a representative of the Dalits so that he could proclaim in the round table conferences that Gandhi and Nehru did not speak for the Dalits when Jinnah was proclaiming that Gandhi and Nehru did not speak for the Muslims.

‣ In fact Ambedkar joined Jinnah in his 'Deliverance Day' Celebrations when the Congress ministries resigned in 1939.

‣ He was also a member of the Viceroy's Cabinet right through the forties and the Quit India movement when the Leaders of the National movement were languishing in jail. Viceroy was the representative of the Crown and had Absolute Powers the Viceroy's cabinet was nothing more than a sinecure body of complaisant Indians. In theory all decisions of the Viceroy were taken after consulting the Cabinet. This cabinet was packed with Indians just to give the Impression that after all the British had the people's backing.

• Ambedkar was the chairman of the Drafting committee whose purpose was to put into words whatever the constituent assembly thought. The ideas were mainly that of the Congress leadership. Shourie also demonstrated how the final constitution was so very different from what Ambedkar had all along advocated.

*****

As to the people who are really practising caste discremination and harassment of the dalits, check the following:

• Dr.A.PadmanAbhan, IAS, former Governor of Mizoram, in his book 'Dalits at the cross-roads' has explained as to who in actuality seek to harass the Dalits:

"The perpetrators of crime, atrocities, rape, tyranny in the name of caste, untouchability, etc. in rural India on the Scheduled Castes are mostly from the Backward classes.

"There are also cases involving upper castes. But the majority of the culprits belong to those sections, who are brought under 'Dalit' along with the Scheduled Caste and Tribes by certain leaders."

This is the current state obtaining against the Dalits, especially in Tamilnadu. Today, brAhmaNas in no way involved in the oppression of the Dalits in Tamilnadu.

• pOgap pOgat theriyum-4 by Subbu
pOgap pOgat theriyum-4

• pOgap pOgat theriyum-12
pOgap pOgat theriyum-2

• pOgap pOgat theriyum-13
pOgap pOgat theriyum-3

• pOgap pOgat theriyum-24
pOgap pOgat theriyum-24

Check specially the facts as to how KAnchi ParamAchArya honoured a dalit leader right during the time when admission to the Pachchaiyappan College, Chennai was denied to them. Also check MK's quote at the end of the article.

 

[pvraman]

The speech BRA made was in Lahore and he begins by expressing his surprise at being invited to speak to a gathering of caste Hindu leaders.

This speech never happened. They with drew the invitation since he wanted to conclude the speech by telling the Hindu crowd that he is converting to Buddhism!..

His main fight for his own Mahar tribes who were the untouchables

Dr.B.R.Ambedkar written a book the untouchable in which he told that mahars were the naga people of india who were Buddhist by their religion. Mahars are earliest Aryans who came to Maharashtra they given lower status in Hinduism because they were against Brahmanism and cast system. Mahar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This particular tribe according to BRA had specially marked out as Untouchables, the reasons also he tried to find in his "The Broken Men". He was fighting all along for Mahars uplift. Numbers only can wonders.

In India every soul found that, only group and mass will reap their benefits. So, under the brand name of BRA each and every state joined (even with different background, different professions, without even any link to being mahar). Mahars are proven untouchables for centruries, but there is no such history for other people.

We have lot of tamil literature by people except மிஷ'நரி' including Chinese travelers, where there is no trace of "Century old oppressions".

Anyway, in TN, they have a good banner, and brand. Even after 1000 years we will be witnessing this oppression slogan.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Bra

Shri Saidevo

You seem to have access to good material on BRA, I would like to ask whether BRA was the only man who made Indian constitution. He was never assisted by even a stenographer. When 'he' was writing the constitution, what the others were doing. I make this question because the world makes it out as if it was the case. Mr R Venkataraman was also a member of the Constitution Assembly. :mad2:

 

[saidevo]

namaste Iyyarooraan.

There are several Internet links that talk of fact and fiction about Ambedkar, varNa and caste; you only need to search and research them using the google.

Dalits in India, by the statues of Ambedkar all over India in full suit holding the book of the 'Constitution of India' are brainwashed to believe that he was the sole author of the document. This is like saying that King Shahjahan built the Taj Mahal. At least in this case Shahjahan was a king (the fact that he did not build the Taj is another issue). In the Constituent Assembly formed to shape the Constitution of India, Ambedkar was in no way the most important VIP: he was the chairman of one of the several committees involved in the work, that's all.

Ambedkar was the chairman of the Drafting Committee. Some of the other serveral committees formed for the task and their chairmen are:

Committee on the Rules of Procedure
--Rajendra Prasad
Credential Committee
--Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar
House Committee
--B. Pattabhi Sitaramayya
Order of Business Committee
--K.M. Munshi
Committee on the Functions of the Constituent Assembly
--G.V. Mavalankar
States Committee
--Jawaharlal Nehru
Advisory Committee on Fundamental Rights, Minorities and Tribal and Excluded Areas
--Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel
Minorities Sub-Committee
--H.C. Mookherjee
Fundamental Rights Sub-Committee
--J.B. Kripalani
North-East Frontier Tribal Areas and Assam Exluded & Partially Excluded Areas Sub-Committee
--Gopinath Bardoloi
Excluded and Partially Excluded Areas (Other than those in Assam) Sub-Committee
--A.V. Thakkar

Let us note that Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel was the chairman of the committee that dealt with Fundamental Rights, Minorities and Tribals and that this was the only committee that had sub-committees under it. Dalit leaders and proponents conveniently hide this important fact of history.

Even in the Draft Committee, Ambedkar was only the Chairman "whose purpose was to put into words whatever the constituent assembly thought. The ideas were mainly that of the Congress leadership." He was helped in this task by five other members in the Draft Committee: N.Madhavrao, Sayyad Sadulla, Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer, Sir Benegal, Narsingh Rao, S.N.Mukharjee, Jugal Kishor Khanna and Kewal Krishnan.

Here are some important links to the above facts:

Ambedkar: The architect of the Indian constitution (with photographs)
Ambedkar: The architect of the Indian constitution | Sankalp India Foundation

Some facts about the Constituent Assembly:
Some Facts of Constituent Assembly

*****

Last, but not the least, we should not forget the role of KAnchi ParamAchArya in enshrining in our Constitution, the sanctity and independence of the religious beliefs of not just Hinduism but other religions in India too. Here is a brief:

Kanchi Mahaperiaval : Experiences with His Holiness Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi MahaSwamiji : kamakoti.org
Again, when the Indian Constitution was being framed, Paramacharya called a well-known Vedic scholar and asked him to meet Sardar Vallabhai Patel to pass on a message from Him on the need for a vital provision in the Constitution to the effect that the religious belief. This message was duly transmitted through a meeting arranged by "The Hindu" with the visiting officials of the Indian Government with the Vedic scholar deputed by Paramacharya. As a result Article 26 of the Constitution was enshrined and this extended constitutional protection, not just to the major religions-Hinduism or Islam-but to every sub-sect of these religions.

*****

In spite of the constitutional protection in Article 26, the TN Government under the leadership of MK has not only dared to change the Tamil New Year day, but arrest the Hindus when they sought to read the Panchangam in front of the Ramanathaswami temple, Rameshvaram, as the Dinamalar news dated 15th Apr 2010 reports. Apart from the fact that the Hindus are complacent in action, the BJP who calls itself a friend of the Hindus should not have let this happen or at least reacted to this incident.

 

[Nara]

Hello folks greetings!!!!

People say some Brahmins helped BRA as if that absolves all responsibility for caste system. These Brahmins went against Brahminisim when they helped BRA with his education. These are the Brahmins we must hold as role models, not the ones who tell tall stories and wallow in endless and mindless adoration of people who stand for the very perpetuation of this vile caste system.

BRA is reviled by people for whom caste is important. He left the Hindu Darma after delivering a blistering criticism, that made it even worse. Added to all that, these uncouth Dalit drunkards want to put BRA's statues in all street corners, how dare they!

So, it is not very difficult to find Brahmins who criticize BRA and Dalits. Look at how silly some of the criticisms are:

BRA opposed the Congress
BRA criticized Gandhi and Nehru (never mind it was a Brahmin who killed Gandhi)
BRA was never an elected representative of the Dalits
BRA joined Jinnah

They also accuse BRA was a stooge of the British. This is a clearly motivated gratuitous attack on the good name of a great Indian. For him, independence from British meant nothing if Dalits do not get independence from the caste system as well. He saw congress as an entity not committed to the complete emancipation of the Dalits. Whether one agrees with him or not, this is a serious position to hold. The continuing atrocities committed against them has vindicated BRA. It does not make any sense to criticize BRA as a British stooge because he wouldn't support Congress, headed by a Mahatma who openly supported the Varna system.

There were many people who cooperated with the British. All sorts of government offices were filled overwhelmingly with Brahmins. They had no problem taking orders from the beef eating mlechchas. So, if the logic forwarded here is applied uniformly, then we have to condemn Brahmins as stooges of the British as well, which I reject with equal vigor. What BRA wanted was to make sure the oppression of the British was not simply replaced with upper caste oppression.

In any case, my post was just to pay homage to a great Indian. Why does that irk so many people? Why do Brahmins feel an urge to sully his name? For example, what is the purpose of minimizing BRA's role in the framing of the constitution? BRA was chosen as the chairman of the Drafting committee, not the dictator.

A whopping 82% of the constitutional convention consisted of Congress, why is it any wonder that most ideas came from Congress. It is not as though these ideas were their original ideas, they borrowed heavily from Magna Carta, US and French constitutions.

All these criticisms are red herrings, nothing to do with the man, who stood for justice for the broken people. He dared to oppose the dominant religion and rejected it. For that the Brahmins won't let up on criticizing him.

These criticisms do not diminish the man, it only diminishes the people who make these criticisms. Look at this from Columbia University for whom BRA was a founding father of India.

Here is what Columbia University has to say about Ambedkar Chair:

“At Columbia we have both a deep intellectual history and a thriving contemporary engagement in India across many academic fields,” said Lee C. Bollinger, President, Columbia University; Professor of Law. “What is most important about the new Ambedkar Chair and Bhagwati Fellowship is that they are not simply powerful examples of this history but of a Columbia future that reflects a truly global perspective on law and society. We are deeply grateful for the generous gifts that have made this commitment possible.”
​

Here is something to think about from National Geographic News:

Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.
​

This is continuing to happen even today, not some 60 or 70 years ago. This is what BRA wanted to prevent, but I guess he is just a misguided leader of a bunch of drunkards.

Thank you...

 

[Iyest]

Here are some more facts about BRA:

I think any useful discussion needs to be objective. There are those who interpret BRA to their political advantage and treat him as a 'god' while there are some who slander him in retaliation. Some knowledge of BRA's life and what he actually said will easily reveal the following:

• He was a brilliant man without doubt

• He overcame tremendous disadvantages prevailing during his time as a dalit

• His primary goal of equality and fraternity of all castes is noble

• His knowledge of Hinduism seems quite limited. However, to further his agenda he may have deliberately chosen only selected aspects of the religion to highlight the evil practises against the untouchables

• Most of the dalit leadership since Independence really don't care about BRA or his primary goal. Their goal is to use BRA for power and money using the emotions of the dalits. We can only hope that the dalit population will soon see how they are being used for decades by their 'leaders'.

• Everyone knows that the greatest opposition to dalits now is coming from the BC. Most crimes against dalits are committed by the BC

• Unfortunately the BC are larger, more wealthy and powerful than any other grouping. So the dalits have to be meek with them and take their frustrations out on the FC who have little relevance in independent india

• BRA is not an impecable 'avatar' by any means. Such claims are too ridiculous. Like other leaders he too had his own limitations in thought and ideaology. However his life and message are valuable for anybody who is serious and objective minded today.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Nara and others.

Nara said in post no.11:
People say some Brahmins helped BRA as if that absolves all responsibility for caste system. These Brahmins went against Brahminisim when they helped BRA with his education. These are the Brahmins we must hold as role models, not the ones who tell tall stories and wallow in endless and mindless adoration of people who stand for the very perpetuation of this vile caste system.

sd:
• Does the Brahminism of the shAstras today prevent brahmins to help dalits or even marry them? If a brahmin does it today, is he/she considered going against Brahminism?

• I for one do indeed appreciate both Ambedkar and the brahmins who supported/married him. I don't consider their achievements as tall stories; I relate them time and again to mention the historical facts that usually get sidetracked.

• Leaders who are perceived as the champions of the Dalits when they seek marry in a manner perceived incongruous, that action does confuse their Dalit followers. EVR's marraige to MaNiammai who was forty years younger to him created a furore in his camp. Ambedkar's marriage even today perplexes his followers, who seek to justify it in the following ways (Dr. Ambedkar married Mai Savitha, a Brahmin - AntiReservation.Com

‣ It's a brahmin conspiracy to tarnish the image of their leader.

‣ By marrying a brahmin woman, Ambedkar has set an example! Here is what a Dalit friend says how (emphasis added):

"Babsaheb can never be wrong. There is a message in each and every action of his life. Babasaheb by Marrying the doctor brahmin Mai Ambedkar has shown us that even women in Brahmin community is oppressed and the only way they can be saved is to get them out of their jati. Brahmin women are also Dalits in a way. Brahmin women are the biggest victim of Brahmin conspiracy. Manu treats women like filth, even brahmin woman. Out dalit women are much more free than the brahmins. They dont become untouchable during menstruation. They work in the fields and they cook.

"If you want to finish the brahmins then marry the Brahmin women. Dalits should marry Brahmin women and take them out of their varna. Then Brahmins the micro minority 3 percent population of india will have no women left to marry and breed. They will die a natural death and become extinct. Look at the genius of Ambedkar. Without understanding Ambedkar’s genius all these so called Dalit intellectuals are making all kinds of noise and falling prey to manuwadi agendas. Remmber manuwadis beleive what they want to believe and they make you believe what they want you to believe."

‣ With fame and money, Dalit leaders tend to break their own principles.

"the so called leaders of lower cast and daliths, when they get fame ,power ,money etc tendencies to marry from upper cast.

"The messiah of dalits Ambdekar married a GSB lady. the new messiah Ramvilas paswan second wife is a bobcutt, sleeveless upper cast lady( his poor first wife lives in a mud house in her native village, of course he married her when he was a poor unknown dalith)
In kerala. Pandalam Sudhakaran,raghuchandrabal,s.Ajaykumar etc are married from upper cast. they want to enjoy the life but they cannot do anything to their people."

I wonder if such views were floated during Ambedkar's time and if they were, what their great leader thought of them; or else, with such views floated now, would they make him turn in his grave!

*****

Nara said:
BRA is reviled by people for whom caste is important. ... So, it is not very difficult to find Brahmins who criticize BRA and Dalits.

sd:
The situation that exists today is that Brahmins are not at all socially involved in the harassment of Dalits. Most brahmins today do not differentiate on account of their caste. I have already referred above in my post no.7 to the findings of Dr.A.PadmanAbhan, IAS, former Governor of Mizoram, in his book 'Dalits at the cross-roads' and also hinted that MK also made a similar statement. Here is a translation of what MK said:

"What is the position today? Who we refer to as having created the jAti, those brahmins, do they anywhere fight with the Adi Dravidas (Dalits)? Does any news appear that a brahmin and a Dalit clashed with each other?"
--M.KaruNAnidhi, Dinathanthi, 12.07.1999

Iyest has given aptly replied to this kind of perception that Brahmins, even today, criticise Ambedkar and harass the Dalits:

Iyest said in post no.12:

• Everyone knows that the greatest opposition to dalits now is coming from the BC. Most crimes against dalits are committed by the BC.

• His knowledge of Hinduism seems quite limited. However, to further his agenda he may have deliberately chosen only selected aspects of the religion to highlight the evil practises against the untouchables.

• Unfortunately the BC are larger, more wealthy and powerful than any other grouping. So the dalits have to be meek with them and take their frustrations out on the FC who have little relevance in independent india.

• Most of the dalit leadership since Independence really don't care about BRA or his primary goal. Their goal is to use BRA for power and money using the emotions of the dalits. We can only hope that the dalit population will soon see how they are being used for decades by their 'leaders'.

*****

Nara said in post no.11:
They also accuse BRA was a stooge of the British. This is a clearly motivated gratuitous attack on the good name of a great Indian. For him, independence from British meant nothing if Dalits do not get independence from the caste system as well. He saw congress as an entity not committed to the complete emancipation of the Dalits. Whether one agrees with him or not, this is a serious position to hold. The continuing atrocities committed against them has vindicated BRA. It does not make any sense to criticize BRA as a British stooge because he wouldn't support Congress, headed by a Mahatma who openly supported the Varna system.

sd:
I don't mean to question Ambedkar's role in the freedom struggle, but I do ask that it was also the British who practised untouchability against lower caste Hindus who cleaned their latrines, massaged their legs, pulled their punkas and even carried them in palanquins. Did Ambedkar ever speak about such arrogant and subversive practices of the British and did he ever go to jail by participating in the freedom struggle that also involved the Dalits in large numbers?

In spite of his vitriolic criticism of Gandhiji and the Congress, he was back in the Cabinet under Nehru, as the Law Minister. Although he says "I kept my doubts at rest and accepted the offer of the prime minister on the ground that I should not deny my co-operation when it was asked for in the building up of our nation...", historian Arun Shorie digs up a different story that Ambedkar actually sought the help of Jagjivan Ram to secure a place in the Cabinet! Here is the link: Rediff On The NeT: Arun Shourie questions B R Ambedkar's contribution to Indian Independence

That said, how do we refute Arun Shorie's facts (emphasis added)?

• Today Ambedkar is seen as a messiah of the Dalits but then he was nothing more than a stooge of the British... an instrument of the British Policy of divide and rule. All this so amply clear when Lithglow talks of 'Strengthening the hands of A so that it may be to our advantage'.

• Can you believe that this messiah was never an elected representative of the Dalits. He could win only one of the reserved seats(Leave alone the General Seats) in the Provincial elections when the Congress was repeatedly sweeping the polls before and after Independence.

• Ambedkar was appointed by only the British as a representative of the Dalits so that he could proclaim in the round table conferences that Gandhi and Nehru did not speak for the Dalits when Jinnah was proclaiming that Gandhi and Nehru did not speak for the Muslims. In fact Ambedkar joined Jinnah in his 'Deliverance Day' Celebrations when the Congress ministries resigned in 1939.

*****

Nara said in post no.11:
In any case, my post was just to pay homage to a great Indian. Why does that irk so many people? Why do Brahmins feel an urge to sully his name?

sd:
Brahmins don't seek to sully Ambedkar's name, only he did seek to sully the brahmins by selectively quoting the shAstras. And yet, he married a brahmin woman for reasons best known to him.

Even in today's scenario, when brahmins are linked with the harrassment of Dalits, and Ambedkar's name is brought in to support it, and the same mAvu--wet flour, is ground again and again, brahmins do need to talk about Ambedkar to put things in the right perspective.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Thank you for the reply. I am enlightened.

 

[Nara]

Hello folks,

Here is what a Padmabhushan awardee, Dhananjay Keer, said about BRA in his book Dr. Ambedkar: Life and Mission:

"He displayed the wisdom of a statesman, the qualities of a leader, the courage of a hero, the endurance of a martyr and the erudition of a savant . . . that in such a span of life the son of an Untouchable could crowd such varied interests, distinctions, and scholarship is an unparalleled achievement in the modern world."
​

The actions of the Brahmin lady who married BRA clearly shows what her opinion of Brahminism was. Every time there is an inter-caste marriage it is a strike against the Darmashahthras and Brahminism. Those who defend Dharmashathras live in an anachronistic time warp.

The world over he is respected as a great statesmen and intellectual, but here, a short note on BRA's birthday brooks so much negativity -- it is really telling!!!!

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

Hello folks,

The actions of the Brahmin lady who married BRA clearly shows what her opinion of Brahminism was.

Last I heard it takes TWO people to get married! By this logic, the actions of the man who gets married to a brahmin lady also clearly shows that he is a charlatan who would dump his philosophy when he meets an irresistable woman!

Every time there is an inter-caste marriage it is a strike against the Darmashahthras and Brahminism.

By this (il)logic, every time there are thousands of marriages within the same caste, Darmashastras are strengthened! And since there many, many times such marriages when compared to inter caste marriage, Darmashastras are getting stronger each day!

The world over he is respected as a great statesmen and intellectual, but here, a short note on BRA's birthday brooks so much negativity -- it is really telling!!!!

What is really telling is your depth of ignorance and lack of comprehension. Most of the posts on this thread have been appreciative of BRA by far.

 

[Nara]

Hello friends,

Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal was a social reform organization that promoted inter-caste marriages. They wanted to eradicate the caste system, but wanted to stay within the Hindu fold. They invited BRA to give a keynote address and later rescinded the invitation when they realized BRA was planning to announce that he was leaving the Hindu fold. However, the speech was published in printed form and has gone through several editions. It was also translated into several other languages.

Some excerpts follow:

From the introduction:

"I have no desire to ascend the platform of the Hindus, to do within their sight what I have been doing within their hearing. If I am here it is because of your choice and not because of my wish. Yours is a cause of social reform. That cause has always made an appeal to me, and it is because of this that I felt I ought not to refuse an opportunity of helping the cause—especially when you think that I can help it. Whether what I am going to say today will help you in any way to solve the problem you are grappling with, is for you to judge. All I hope to do is to place before you my views on the problem."
​

On caste being a division of labor:

• "Caste System is not merely a division of labour. It is also a division of labourers. "
• "... in no civilized society is division of labour accompanied by this unnatural division of labourers into watertight compartments."
• "… it is a hierarchy in which the divisions of labourers are graded one above the other."
• "This division of labour is not spontaneous, it is not based on natural aptitudes."
• "Caste System […] involves an attempt to appoint tasks to individuals in advance—selected not on the basis of trained original capacities, but on that of the social status of the parents."
• "The division of labour brought about by the Caste System is not a division based on choice. Individual sentiment, individual preference, has no place in it. It is based on the dogma of predestination."

Cheers!

 

[Jambu]

Ambedkar is a great Physician. His diagnosis for the evils of society is correct His reasoning for his diagnosis is scientific Arguments logical But he is a failed therapist. you attempt to cure say head ache. But to cure the head ache the treatment adopted is to remove the Head!. No head hence no more head ache ! Flawed logic here A good doctor reviews the patient regularly and if the treatment adopted shows no improvement attempts a different line of treatment There is no review for the failed therapy. Like Ambedkar and his followers becoming NeoBuddists,(with portability of advantage of caste due to policy of reservation) those benefited for 60 or more years have become sort of NeoBrahmins It is some thing like this To eliminate the evil Hiranyakasyabu Narsimha came. But Ugram of Narasimha was so fierce Sarbeshwar had to came to tame him. Logically the disease must be cured and one evil should not replace the other instead of eliminating it. Popular Utterance "பிராமணர்களை வெறுக்கவில்லை பிராமிணியதைதன் வெறுக்கிறோம்' by Dravidian leaders Now this should be changed to" we hate NeoBrhamanism But not NeoBrahmins Jambu :laser:

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri SD,

Thanks for your post.

I dont see from any forums that our vedic scriptures mentioned this untouchables anywhere. If yes, how come untouchables vary state to state. I understand that before 10th CE, we had Chandalas as the only group as untouchables. I found some references that, they were generally a group with particular habits and characteristics (mostly rusty) who were kept out of society more so because chandalas themselves not willing to be bound by the society rules.

I dont know how chandalas later were classified as a group of people (pall, para, sakk, etc etc) where as no such divisions is not mentioned in our own old tamil literatures (i am not taking here any மிஷநரிஸ் work).

How became maharashtras 9% Mahars related with our TN Dalits where as they have very different origin and classification.

Why we do not take into consideration the other religious rulers invasion and destruction of society as nearly as 70 years back. How can we forget and no account how we were managing our affairs before the east indian company ruled us, and how this barbarians taken away all the village revenues (which was our back bone) which was used for the welfare of our village society. How the barbarians made the poor the poorest and made farmers commit suicide or runaway due to the excess taxes...

Namsakarams

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri SD,

Thanks for your post.

I dont see from any forums that our vedic scriptures mentioned this untouchables anywhere. If yes, how come untouchables vary state to state. I understand that before 10th CE, we had Chandalas as the only group as untouchables. I found some references that, they were generally a group with particular habits and characteristics (mostly rusty) who were kept out of society more so because chandalas themselves not willing to be bound by the society rules.

I dont know how chandalas later were classified as a group of people (pall, para, sakk, etc etc) where as no such divisions is not mentioned in our own old tamil literatures (i am not taking here any மிஷநரிஸ் work).

How became maharashtras 9% Mahars related with our TN Dalits where as they have very different origin and classification.

Why we do not take into consideration the other religious rulers invasion and destruction of society as nearly as 70 years back. How can we forget and no account how we were managing our affairs before the east indian company ruled us, and how this barbarians taken away all the village revenues (which was our back bone) which was used for the welfare of our village society. How the barbarians made the poor the poorest and made farmers commit suicide or runaway due to the excess taxes...

Namsakarams

Dear Sri PV Raman ji,

You are right in observing that many new castes exist today that did not exit previously. Please do one thing:

1) Please find out which castes were present at the time the Dharmashastras were written.

2) Next find out which of the present day castes descended from those old castes.

Dharmashastras mention occupations, not castes; and unfortunately for the varna system, occupations have never been remained stagnant....

I ask christians if everyone before Christ went to hell bcoz they were not baptized (including the patriarch Abraham). Similarly, did the Gayatri mantra exist before Vishwamitra? If yes, then in what form? If not, then how were people becoming (enlightened?) dwijas before Vishwamitra? Some people seem to think dwijas existed for thousands of years in some sorta "pure" form bypassing the mesolithic hunting-fishing stage of humans and all that...hence, this question..

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri PV Raman ji,
Please do one thing:

1) Please find out which castes were present at the time the Dharmashastras were written.

2) Next find out which of the present day castes descended from those old castes.

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Welcome back..

I am in the process, besides, i wud really like to know that, how greedy those people were (in comparison to these days) what kind of comforts (train, bus, car, flight, tv, ipad, ipod, pc, laptop, branded goods, dress designs, electical appliances, good restaurants)and what was the money farm, how did they spent, how they depend upon other manual labours (some of the villages the toilets emerged only about 4o years back), how much amount of physical labour demanded and populations and resources, and what kind of need was there to control the people by way of scriptures (3o crores in 1947 what was in dharmasastra days).

Regards

 

[RVR]

Recent United Nations report says India has more cell phones than toilets.

India has more cell phones than toilets: UN - Trends - Society - ibnlive

If we analyse the above news item in more detail, it may give more information that it is the daliths community which has less access to toilets than other communities.

It is high time daliths take up development of their community as the agenda instead of fighting with other communities.

Unlike EVR, who didn't aspire for any post and was more focussed on his movement, BRA accepted lucrative posts in the Government machinery and sacrificed the interests of his own community.

It is a fact that EVR movement succeeded in Tamilnadu but BRA has failed miserably in up lifting his community.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Welcome back..

I am in the process, besides, i wud really like to know that, how greedy those people were (in comparison to these days) what kind of comforts (train, bus, car, flight, tv, ipad, ipod, pc, laptop, branded goods, dress designs, electical appliances, good restaurants)and what was the money farm, how did they spent, how they depend upon other manual labours (some of the villages the toilets emerged only about 4o years back), how much amount of physical labour demanded and populations and resources, and what kind of need was there to control the people by way of scriptures (3o crores in 1947 what was in dharmasastra days).

Regards

imo, there was no need to "control" people with scriptures in the past.

it was just division of labour. and it must have served its purpose, which is why it existed....but is it applicable in the present (?)...

btw, in south india, it wud be interesting to note which kingdoms followed / endorsed which dharmasutra....

example:: apasthamba's smrithi was followed in saluvadesa / salvadesa and by the satavahanas...apparently, the apasthambha clan lived along the yamuna in what is today mathura (source: frits stall, discovering the vedas)...one or some of the apasthambas was brought down south to draft laws for a kingdom in the south (another salvadesa?)...but after the satavahanas, which other kingdom followed apasthaba's laws? it wud be interesting to find out which tamil kingdoms followed which dharmashastras....

have deviated from this ambedkar topic...apologies...but look into varna dharma (used in lieu of jati dharma here) which he opposed....its just a wafer thingy...so easily makable, breakable, imitable or copyable, its fodder for politicians / missionaries, etc....it can even make or break relationships....its such a "what" sort of thing...what a topic it is........

 

[Iyest]

Recent United Nations report says India has more cell phones than toilets.


Unlike EVR, who didn't aspire for any post and was more focussed on his movement, BRA accepted lucrative posts in the Government machinery and sacrificed the interests of his own community.

It is a fact that EVR movement succeeded in Tamilnadu but BRA has failed miserably in up lifting his community.

EVR cannot be compared to BRA. EVR only contributed a lot of negative emotion bordering on hatred to Brahmins. That is all. Till the end by when the DMK had come to power he could not bring himself to allowing Brahmins to join his DK party. I don't know in which other 'democracy' a party is allowed to refuse membership to certain people on the basis of caste! On the other hand we can disagree with the percentage contribution of BRA to our constitution, but it is substantial. And his stated goal was caste fraternity and equality. If success is only going to be measured by gaining power then let us not forget that EVR had substantial backing from the BC in Tamilnadu who account for more than half the population. The dalits are less than 20% which is why they are at the receiving end from the BC even today. Unfortunately they have been constantly encouraged to hate the FC as their enemies. Should they begin to see the hardships of the FC today they would join them. And a population of 35% has a better chance of success.

 

[Jambu]

EVR cannot be compared to BRA. EVR only contributed a lot of negative emotion bordering on hatred to Brahmins. That is all. Till the end by when the DMK had come to power he could not bring himself to allowing Brahmins to join his DK party. I don't know in which other 'democracy' a party is allowed to refuse membership to certain people on the basis of caste! On the other hand we can disagree with the percentage contribution of BRA to our constitution, but it is substantial. And his stated goal was caste fraternity and equality. If success is only going to be measured by gaining power then let us not forget that EVR had substantial backing from the BC in Tamilnadu who account for more than half the population. The dalits are less than 20% which is why they are at the receiving end from the BC even today. Unfortunately they have been constantly encouraged to hate the FC as their enemies. Should they begin to see the hardships of the FC today they would join them. And a population of 35% has a better chance of success.

This is what Mayawathi is attempting Time will judge Jambu:clap2: