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Does Prayer ever pay?

prasad1

Active member
I am not a believer in prayer, but I believe in Brahman.
A friend of mine got disenchanted from Hinduism and converted to Islam. It shattered me, my friend has died and I am sad.

I am still trying to find the reason for the conversion.

The person said that they were bot convinced that Hindu Prayer is strong enough for them, and Muslim prayers are working for them.

I do not know Muslim prayers nor am I interested in knowing.

The business end of God is not the past’s effect on the present, but the present’s effect on the future. Can you appeal to God to intervene in the workings of the world? If you pray just right, or behave just right, or come from the right tribe does the almighty, Yahweh, Allah, God, the higher power, or spirit put His thumb on the scales tipping the balance your way?

In other words is there divine intervention?

A mother prays that her daughter’s cancer would vanish, a Muslim prays that the infidel is vanquished, you pray that you get that promotion, a father prays for a source of income so his kids don’t starve. A tribe prays that the genocide against them ends. An evangelical prays for money to buy a new car.However big or small, worthy or unworthy the cause, does prayer ever work?
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Active member
[FONT=&quot]Besides if it what you pray for really is virtuous and God, working in mysterious ways, was ultimately beneficent, it seems pretty arrogant to feel like you have to give his omniscience a heads up on an opportunity to do the right thing. If God is benevolent, does He need you to say “God, please make good things happen.”?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
Religion:[/FONT] Prayer is good for the soul. It is a meditation on what we value. It is our way of expressing and declaring what we want.

[FONT=&quot]
Science: [/FONT]That, I’m not arguing. That’s a separate question. We’re talking here not about whether it changes the person praying but whether it changes the cosmos, causing God’s to intervene altering nature either because the person praying wants something or because the person praying gave God a useful heads up about a place God could do some good. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
To us, that’s a crock, and frankly the crux of your creationism and intelligent design arguments, not doubts about dinosaurs, ape-ancestors and cavemen. You want intelligent design because you want intelligent re-design, the ability for God to intervene whenever you decide it would be intelligent for him to do so.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Indeed the same arrogance shows in your attitude toward science. Never mind whether God will override the laws of nature on your behalf, you’ll do it for Him. In your daily life, you rely on the laws of nature as much as the next guy. It’s why you can doze off feeling safe on a jet, under a surgeon’s knife or driving a car, relying on the reliable natural law.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
But whenever science gets inconvenient to you, you claim to be the voice of God Himself and intervene not to override science’s discoveries but to deny them. That’s a direct extension of your arrogant hopes and prayers, the sense that either God speaks for you or you speak for God and can line-item veto the laws of nature whenever you want, and rely on them like the rest of us the rest of the time.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
As a meditation or source of self-soothing, as a form of therapy prayer makes perfect sense. Think of it like talking to your pet fish. You might get some benefit out of thinking you’ve got a dialogue going on, even if the fish doesn’t understand a word you’re saying.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy/201305/the-arrogance-prayer[/FONT]
 

KRN

Active member
A mother prays that her daughter’s cancer would vanish, a Muslim prays that the infidel is vanquished, you pray that you get that promotion, a father prays for a source of income so his kids don’t starve. A tribe prays that the genocide against them ends. An evangelical prays for money to buy a new car.However big or small, worthy or unworthy the cause, does prayer ever work?

Prayer (or God) is not meant to be an automaton that should "work" as per your desire or fancies.
 
What does the statement 'I believe in Brahman' mean?
Is Brahman a God ?
In what way it is different from 'My God is Vishnu and I believe in Him'

So how does one relate to this Brhaman if it is not by Prayer?
 

renuka

Well-known member
I am not a believer in prayer, but I believe in Brahman.
A friend of mine got disenchanted from Hinduism and converted to Islam. It shattered me, my friend has died and I am sad.

I am still trying to find the reason for the conversion.

The person said that they were bot convinced that Hindu Prayer is strong enough for them, and Muslim prayers are working for them.

I do not know Muslim prayers nor am I interested in knowing.

The business end of God is not the past’s effect on the present, but the present’s effect on the future. Can you appeal to God to intervene in the workings of the world? If you pray just right, or behave just right, or come from the right tribe does the almighty, Yahweh, Allah, God, the higher power, or spirit put His thumb on the scales tipping the balance your way?

In other words is there divine intervention?

A mother prays that her daughter’s cancer would vanish, a Muslim prays that the infidel is vanquished, you pray that you get that promotion, a father prays for a source of income so his kids don’t starve. A tribe prays that the genocide against them ends. An evangelical prays for money to buy a new car.However big or small, worthy or unworthy the cause, does prayer ever work?


There is no such thing as a Hindu prayer working for some and a Muslim prayer working for another or both offline or only one online etc.

It all depends on what the mind of the person accepted.

Prayer is very much an antidepressant and antioxidant to the mind.

Whether it works or not is a different issue.

On technical grounds a prayer is a neuronal expression fueled by an emotional connection and its finally a thought wave.

Since a wave too has energy as it substratum so it can not be destroyed and would surely transform into some other "form" eventually for the good or for the bad it all depends what the prayer was about.

One might choose to pray to God in various ways...one might want to choose multiple names..another might choose meditation..one might choose to be Monotheist another might be Advaitin etc.

Its not really any converting or reverting ..its just choosing a mode of feeling connected to the Supreme...some might find current day Hinduism a bit too "challenging" as it might seem to be leaning on Agama Shastras more than Vedanta and some might find Islam very much easier to adhere for reasons best known to them.

BTW prayers are not meant to harm self or others. One who prays for destruction of others who are not of his religion or tribe has never understood what prayer is.

Getting back to your friend...what has died is not your friend..what that has died is the perception you had of that person.
To a great extent we weave a mental image for everyone near and dear to us and it shatters into pieces when our perception is not met...but if you look at the shrapnel that lay scattered you might think it was meant to hurt you but what you witness is just shattered attachment.

Ask yourself...has your friend changed in their dealings with you?

If he/she has...then he/she are is not worthy of your friendship..if your friend remains the same..then that friend is not dead.


Btw is it advisable to call a living person dead when life and death is determined by God?
We cant call a corpse as living and neither we should call a living person dead.
 
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idol worship and prayers are a core part of our religion.

as I mentioned in the other post, philosophical and rituals have coexisted right through

I will write a separate note on why prayers evolved and why we pray !!!
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Active member
What does the statement 'I believe in Brahman' mean?
Is Brahman a God ?
In what way it is different from 'My God is Vishnu and I believe in Him'

So how does one relate to this Brhaman if it is not by Prayer?

[FONT=q_serif]Everything in our universe and beyond that is in existence, from tinyest particles to greatest heavenly bodies are same in their primeval pure state which we know to be ‘Brahman', the first cause of material existence as well as the last refuge upon destruction. In short, Our universe along with everything in it emanates from Brahman upon creation and dissolves back in it upon destruction. So one can say the [/FONT]universe is Brahman
[FONT=q_serif]
Consciousness in living creature is essence of soul. Soul is living entity that exist in the same state as Brahman. In other words, the[/FONT]
soul/self is Brahman.


[FONT=q_serif]Brahman is a concept in Hinduism. Not God or even a diety. Brahman is the idea of ultimate reality that goes over an above everything else from God (or Gods), Devas, Asuras, humans, living, inanimate, thoughts, deeds, space, time, matter and any other force that exists or doesn’t exist. Brahman is everything.[/FONT]
[FONT=q_serif]Oddly though, Brahman is impersonal. So you can’t pray to Brahman or build temples or listen to it’s advice. Brahman is the ultimate reality that we need to realise. The Vedas say that Oneness with Brahman is what the many sages, religions and practices try to help us attain through different methods. Ekam sat virpa bahuda vadanti. The ultimate reality is one. The wise approach it in different ways.


https://www.quora.com/Is-Brahman-an-uncreated-God-that-created-all-things-that-exist-in-Hinduism


Brahman does not have enemies, it does not play favorites, it is not judgemental.

Just as space, that is the nearest thing to Brahman.

There is no need to pray to space, or praise space, Brahman does not expect praise. not does it offer boons.
Your destiny is determined by your karmas.


I am not an expert on Brahman(or anything else), but this is what I understand, and that is what I want to realize.
[/FONT]

In
Hinduism, Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

As long as I see the "other" I have not realized. I must realize that there is no OTHER.






 
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prasad1

prasad1

Active member
Advaita Vedanta espouses nondualism. Brahman is the sole unchanging reality, there is no duality, no limited individual souls nor a separate unlimited cosmic soul, rather all souls, all of existence, across all space and time, is one and the same. The universe and the soul inside each being is Brahman, and the universe and the soul outside each being is Brahman, according to Advaita Vedanta. Brahman is the origin and end of all things, material and spiritual. Brahman is the root source of everything that exists. He states that Brahman can neither be taught nor perceived (as an object of intellectual knowledge), but it can be learned and realized by all human beings. The goal of Advaita Vedanta is to realize that one's Self (Atman) gets obscured by ignorance and false-identification ("Avidya"). When Avidya is removed, the Atman (Soul, Self inside a person) is realized as identical with Brahman. The Brahman is not an outside, separate, dual entity, the Brahman is within each person, states Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism. Brahman is all that is eternal, unchanging and that which truly exists. This view is stated in this school in many different forms, such as "Ekam sat" ("Truth is one"), and all is Brahman.

The universe does not simply come from Brahman, it is Brahman. According to Adi Shankara, a proponent of Advaita Vedanta, the knowledge of Brahman that shruti provides cannot be obtained by any other means besides self inquiry.


In Advaita Vedanta, nirguna Brahman, that is the Brahman without attributes, is held to be the ultimate and sole reality. Consciousness is not a property of Brahman but its very nature. In this respect, Advaita Vedanta differs from other Vedanta schools.

He who finds his happiness within,

His delight within,
And his light within,
This yogin attains the bliss of Brahman, becoming Brahman. – Hymn 5.24

— Bhagavad Gita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman



The concept of God (in Hinduism and other religion) is like a ruler or King. I find that difficult, then this is a limited god who has to punish or reward on a whim and I refuse to accept that definition of God.
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Active member
A-Tbji you raised a pertinent question.
I hope I am able to express my opinion on the subject.

In
Hinduism, Brahman refers to the supreme cosmic power, ontological ground of being, and the source, goal and purpose of all spiritual knowledge. Non-Hindus often translate Brahman as "God," but this is inaccurate. According to Hinduism, Brahman is said to be ineffable and higher than any description of God in personal form. Many philosophers agree that Brahman is ultimately indescribable in the context of unenlightened human experience. Nevertheless, Brahman is typically described as absolute truth, consciousness, and bliss (Sat Cit Ananda) as well as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.Theistic schools of Hinduism which developed out of the bhakti tradition, such as Vaishnavism and Saivism, hold a personalistic view of Brahman comparable to that of Ramanuja. However, these schools often maintain a semi-monistic perspective that sees their chosen personal god as not only the supreme deity, but also the pantheistic essence of the universe. Thus, the personal god comes to adopt the cosmological significance of Brahman. Sri Caitanya, for instance, founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, taught that Krishna is the sole supreme entity in the universe, and all other conceptions of God are manifestations of Him.

Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan
(1888-1975), the esteemed Hindu statesman and philosopher, is one modern Hindu thinker who has elaborated upon the concept of Brahman. Radhakrishnan explicates the relation between Brahman and the self with insights from modern scientific discoveries and comparative religion. He suggests that the progressive realization of the divine within each individual will allow humanity itself to be transformed towards a higher stage of spiritual evolution.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Brahman

 
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renuka

Well-known member
What if there is really a God as in a King?
Lets see..after all Krishna does say " Surrender to Me..Ma Suchah"

Vaishnavas swear on their chinny chin chin that they surrender to Vishnu.

Bengalis are sure God is a female and they surrender in a Maa Tujhe Salaam format.


Bhajans are all about all powerful God.

Christianity is about a Father too.

Now if USA can have Trump..why cant the universe have a God as in the most powerful in the Universe?

How are we to disprove this?
 
What if there is really a God as in a King?
Lets see..after all Krishna does say " Surrender to Me..Ma Suchah"

Vaishnavas swear on their chinny chin chin that they surrender to Vishnu.

Bengalis are sure God is a female and they surrender in a Maa Tujhe Salaam format.


Bhajans are all about all powerful God.

Christianity is about a Father too.

Now if USA can have Trump..why cant the universe have a God as in the most powerful in the Universe?

How are we to disprove this?

precisely the point !!! How do you disprove this widespread belief ??

when I pen the notes prayers, it will probably convince you that there may really be a god !!!!
 

renuka

Well-known member
precisely the point !!! How do you disprove this widespread belief ??

when I pen the notes prayers, it will probably convince you that there may really be a god !!!!

Yes...no one saw God yet we Hindus are the only ones who try to invoke God in a Pratima.
 
A-Tbji you raised a pertinent question.
I hope I am able to express my opinion on the subject.

In
Hinduism, Brahman refers to the supreme cosmic power, ontological ground of being, and the source, goal and purpose of all spiritual knowledge. Non-Hindus often translate Brahman as "God," but this is inaccurate. According to Hinduism, Brahman is said to be ineffable and higher than any description of God in personal form. Many philosophers agree that Brahman is ultimately indescribable in the context of unenlightened human experience. Nevertheless, Brahman is typically described as absolute truth, consciousness, and bliss (Sat Cit Ananda) as well as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.Theistic schools of Hinduism which developed out of the bhakti tradition, such as Vaishnavism and Saivism, hold a personalistic view of Brahman comparable to that of Ramanuja. However, these schools often maintain a semi-monistic perspective that sees their chosen personal god as not only the supreme deity, but also the pantheistic essence of the universe. Thus, the personal god comes to adopt the cosmological significance of Brahman. Sri Caitanya, for instance, founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, taught that Krishna is the sole supreme entity in the universe, and all other conceptions of God are manifestations of Him.

Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan
(1888-1975), the esteemed Hindu statesman and philosopher, is one modern Hindu thinker who has elaborated upon the concept of Brahman. Radhakrishnan explicates the relation between Brahman and the self with insights from modern scientific discoveries and comparative religion. He suggests that the progressive realization of the divine within each individual will allow humanity itself to be transformed towards a higher stage of spiritual evolution.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Brahman


For a belief this seem to be too complicated. I am at a loss as to how a complex definition can be believed by anyone.

If someone says they believe God created this universe, I can understand that belief. We build a sand castle as a kid, so the belief of someone creating this universe is understandable.

If a person says that God is sitting in a bed of a snake which is floating on a sea of milk, that is a blind belief because that person believes a story. Similarly believing in a complex definition of a Brahman again is a blind belief only.

With these blind beliefs in place, how can people argue who has a better belief?

Also the beliefs dictate how a person acts out in life - pray or not pray.

Human beings are a confused lot. They vest their ego into their beliefs as truths and fight.
 
What if there is really a God as in a King?
Lets see..after all Krishna does say " Surrender to Me..Ma Suchah"

Vaishnavas swear on their chinny chin chin that they surrender to Vishnu.

Bengalis are sure God is a female and they surrender in a Maa Tujhe Salaam format.


Bhajans are all about all powerful God.

Christianity is about a Father too.

Now if USA can have Trump..why cant the universe have a God as in the most powerful in the Universe?

How are we to disprove this?

Beliefs cannot be disproved or proved. Period.

You have said you believed Satya Sai Baba has done miracles (while many of us dont believe miracles are possible).

When one is afraid they begin to pray for sure. Have you ever been in a distress situation? Even an atheist will pray to unknown God when their life is seriously threatened.

The best we can do is to live in harmony by respecting all beliefs as valid. But we need not follow all those beliefs , we just let life be.
 
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prasad1

prasad1

Active member
For a belief this seem to be too complicated. I am at a loss as to how a complex definition can be believed by anyone.

If someone says they believe God created this universe, I can understand that belief. We build a sand castle as a kid, so the belief of someone creating this universe is understandable.

If a person says that God is sitting in a bed of a snake which is floating on a sea of milk, that is a blind belief because that person believes a story. Similarly believing in a complex definition of a Brahman again is a blind belief only.

With these blind beliefs in place, how can people argue who has a better belief?

Also the beliefs dictate how a person acts out in life - pray or not pray.

Human beings are a confused lot. They vest their ego into their beliefs as truths and fight.


An assumption is not a belief. That is by definition.
For instance, we have a definition of infinity without ever reaching it.
Similarly, Brahman is by definition

Brahman refers to the supreme cosmic power, ontological ground of being, and the source, goal and purpose of all spiritual knowledge.

Brahman is not God of Bhakti (all religion). So I have no expectation that Brahman is going to do favors for me. So bt praising or begging I am not going to get any boons.

I can only explain my position if you do not want to see I can not force you to see my point.
Thanks and that is my last effort on this subject.
 

tbs

0
An assumption is not a belief. That is by definition.
For instance, we have a definition of infinity without ever reaching it.
Similarly, Brahman is by definition

Brahman refers to the supreme cosmic power, ontological ground of being, and the source, goal and purpose of all spiritual knowledge.

Brahman is not God of Bhakti (all religion). So I have no expectation that Brahman is going to do favors for me. So bt praising or begging I am not going to get any boons.

I can only explain my position if you do not want to see I can not force you to see my point.
Thanks and that is my last effort on this subject.
hi
nirguna brahman can't see...only through realisation....at least be happy with saguna brahman than nirguna brahman
 
An assumption is not a belief. That is by definition.
For instance, we have a definition of infinity without ever reaching it.
Similarly, Brahman is by definition

Brahman refers to the supreme cosmic power, ontological ground of being, and the source, goal and purpose of all spiritual knowledge.

Brahman is not God of Bhakti (all religion). So I have no expectation that Brahman is going to do favors for me. So bt praising or begging I am not going to get any boons.

I can only explain my position if you do not want to see I can not force you to see my point.
Thanks and that is my last effort on this subject.

You have said you believe in Brahman any number of times. Its definition is not simple. I do not know what your assumption is because you say Brahman is not God.

For some people Brahman is God. My sparring friend will say it is Narayna, .

Example of infinity is not applicable here. If there is a finite number , I can add one to it and get the next number. So the numbers are infinite. There is a proof. You dont need to reach infinity for a proof.

I cannot force you to see logical fallacy in your claims. Your belief/assumptions are no better than the fellow who believes/assumes a God lying down in a bed of serpent floating in an ocean of milk.

If a person prays for boons let him. If you do not want to pray or ask anything so be it. Your action is based on your beliefs and assumptions.. But your position is not superior to call the other person as begging. You are steeped in blind assumptions as anyone else. That is all I wanted to point out. I respect your assumptions and beliefs as anyone else's. No belief is superior here. They are just beliefs.
 
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