• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Does Hinduism need reforms?

Status
Not open for further replies.

goundamani

Active member
Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world.It's philosophies,teachings,way of life and knolwedge are unparalleled in the world.It is impossible to define who a hindu is and what are the fundamentals of our religion.Infact clubbing various sects into one name 'hinduism' has its own merits and demerits.

I believe that the word hindu is a political construct,one that was necessitated because government had to name the phenomena that united the various sects,which had nothing common in them except varnashrama and shared deities.

When we talk of hinduism needing reforms,actually we are talking of people who follow hinduism reforming themselves.While tremendous amount of improvement has happened in the past century,I believe that still a lot of improvement is possible in this aspect.

Here are some areas where I think hinduism needs reforms.

1.Making hinduism a missionary religion.
2.Equality of men and women.
3.upliftment of downtrodden segments in hinduism,like dalits and fishermen.
4.Building a secular society based upon principles of equality,liberty and fraternity.
5.Removal of superstitions and harmful practices like sathi & encouraging widow remarriages etc.
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Silver fox,

Any attempt to change first needs an assesment of the current situation.The million dollar question that needs to be answered first is 1.do we need change?

Is everything allright with us?Do we or dont we need change?Which is the right path,orthodoxy or reforms?
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Dear silverfox,

Ofcourse reformers will face opposition.They have to overcome it and attain their objectives.
 
K

kchandra

Guest
Yes our society needs reforms very much

Dear Silverfox/Goundamani,

Yes Hindusim definitely needs reforms. Any society, group of people or religion has to change with times. Anything that resists change will be left behind and forgotten and will be overtaken by other cultures. If our country has to be strong, every single man / woman should be part of its progress. Goundamani's list of items cover pretty much all the major items that need to change. But personally my belief is that,

* I am afraid Goundamani's idealistic desire for reforms, may not materialise as quickly as he wants.
* Any push for reforms will have to consider the current soci-economic-political conditions of our country

* Rather , in India the reforms are going to be more organic, in that, the society will have its segments that are for reforms , sections that oppose it vehemently and some segments being indifferent or taking the middle path. And the changes will be gradual, and cautious rather than being sudden. And the pace of changes/reforms will be decided by the interplay of these segments and their outcomes.

* Reforms all over the world have been either quick and violent or organic. The bolshevik revolution of Russia ( or the french revolution ) are examples of violent types. The changes in the USA in the last 100 years, where the society has moved from a agrarian / religious / to a capitalistic secular society is an example of the organic type.
* My gut feeling is that in India , changes are going to be organic. This is inevitable given the pluralistic population, lack of a single homogeneous language/ethnic group spanning the whole nation etc. Our country cannot a afford a violent revolution, it will probably result in its dismantlement and disrupt normal life.
* Overall I think the economic reforms are also contributing to changes in society, by unshackling entrepreneural energy. However lack of availability of capital for weaker sections like dalits etc. is a cause of concern.


And like all other changes happening in society, reforms too will take place at different paces in different parts of the country and in different ethnic groups. For example, in a place like Mumbai or Delhi, caste is not very relevant and financial success matters a lot. But the same cannot be said of a place like Patna or even Kumbakonam. But it is inevitable that the changes will percolate to these places as well, the only question being how long will it take.

Same for ethnic groups. A bengali or Punjabi is very cosmopolitan in his outlook for most part, but a Bihari is less so.

The least people like us can do is, to support reforms and follow it in our personal life, and contribute our bit so society changes. And also encourage our friends to have a progressive outlook.

- Krishna
 
S

Shanti Brahm

Guest
Do We Understand ?What? We Are ReForming ???

I don't like the word REFORM. It seems to indicate that there is something inherently incorrect about Hinduism that needs correcting.

I prefer the word ADAPT. As far as Hinduism is concerned, it adapts very easly to change. It has adapted in various ways throughout history. Animal sacfrifice was replaced by pooja with coconut. Homan by idol. There are so many Hindu reformasts, it's imposible to count. Adi Shankara was a reformer. As was Sri Ramanuja. Also Sri Ramakrishna and Dayananda Saraswati. The list is endless. Each teacher brings out something new. Another variation is created in the fabric that is hinduism. Hinduism naturally adapts to people and circumstances.

My question is, when some self proclaimed do gooder from the streeet suddenly calls for reform, does he really understand what he is trying to reform? When a religious leader questions a particular practice, it's from years of study of that practice and a deep understanding of the spiritual basis of that practice. Theefore the spirual basis is continued though the practice may take a different form. When we have people who have no understanding of what they are reforming calling for all kinds of reform, what we have is a disaster.

And that's what we have today - A DISASTER.

Time to step back and see if we are adapting to the times or are just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Does Hinduism need Reform?

I agree with Shant_Brahm. The word Reform means that there is some thing wrong with existing Religion.First, Could someone please define what the word "Hinduism" means? Unlike other religions we do not follow one Prophet or one book or one Philosophy to call ourselves as Hindus belonging to a single religion. Even though the core aspect of "Hinduism" may be same, that is the belief in one "Brahman" it encompasses different philosophical denominations, traditions, beliefs and practices. This is our strength, which prevented our religion disintegrating into vacuum due to continuous invation from outside for many centuries.This perhaps is the only Religion in the world which has accepted continuous reformation by Sages and Saints gifted by Almighty time and again. It is my view if need be there will be a reformer who will come of his own to Reform us again. We need not do any thing for this. We never believed in adding numbers to our Religion, that is Politics. We believe that each one can follow his own path in the matter of spiritual pursuit.
If someone wants to reform the social customs practiced in this Country, then that is different.
Brahmanyan.
 

cititar

Member
in our religion very thing is perdicted.
in kaliyuga every dharma will go to its down level.
every rituals in our religion is to lead to mind purity.
in kaliyuga varna ashrama dharma will go .

" In kaliyuga every persons mind is impure and their earnings are by doing bad deeds. there is only way for salvation that is Nama sangeerthanam.

chating bhagavan nama will remove our sin and make mind pure to attain god.

this is the only way for all people of the world.
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Hi shanthi,

Anybody can reform a religion.There is no need to set up certain qualifications of the persons who should reform a religion,nor stipulate parameters about what needs to be reformed and what should not be reformed.

whenever anybody sees any injustice in any religion,he can raise his voice against it.Its upto the people whether to agree with him or not.reforms is a dynamic process,not a static one.

Feel free to call that process as reforms or adaptations,It doesnt matter.What is needed is change.

If we take care of freedom,truth will take care of itself.
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Dear Bhramanyan,

we have the option of sitting and gazing the sky waiting for a reformer or become the reformer ourself.

when i see stupidities like caste and varna,I dont wait for a reformer.I myself become a reformer.

when a dog attacks a child,we dont wait for rajinikanth or vijayakanth to come to the resuce,do we?We ourselves become a hero and save the child.

Similiarly when we see people suffering in the name of religion,we need not wait for reformers.We ourself should become one.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Dear Goundamani,

Yes I agree with you. Nobody can stop us from doing good for the Society. As I have already written If some body wants to reform the social customs practiced in the Country those who have the resourses can initiate the reforms that they think fit.

Brahmanyan.
 

gkslm

Member
No need of reforms in Hinduism

Friends,

Hinduism and ofcourse hindus always used to adopt the changes. Not like other Abrahamic religions, where trying to analyse the golden rules itself is prohibited. (Suspecting Allah and the prophetness of Mohammad is not "Imaan" in Islaam).

Hinduism is a beautiful way of living. It allows us to be what we are. This is the only religion where anyone can try to explain their religions experiences. Noone will give FATWA:love:
 

kudumi

Active member
Building bridges.

Hi shanthi,

Anybody can reform a religion.There is no need to set up certain qualifications of the persons who should reform a religion,nor stipulate parameters about what needs to be reformed and what should not be reformed.

whenever anybody sees any injustice in any religion,he can raise his voice against it.Its upto the people whether to agree with him or not.reforms is a dynamic process,not a static one.

Feel free to call that process as reforms or adaptations,It doesnt matter.What is needed is change.

If we take care of freedom,truth will take care of itself.

"Anybody can reform a religion.There is no need to set up certain qualifications of the persons who should reform a religion,nor stipulate parameters about what needs to be reformed and what should not be reformed."
Anybody with a silver prince ( or 777 or wilkinson) blade and coates thread and TVS needle can perform a surgery.
Anybody with a kolthu can become a kolthukarar or an engineer and build dams and bridges and airplanes.
Similarly, any TOM, DICK, and HARRY can reform a religion without knowing the philosophies, and scriptures and rituals. What all one needs is a mouth to bash brahmins and it will be immediately called a reform.
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Anybody with a silver prince ( or 777 or wilkinson) blade and coates thread and TVS needle can perform a surgery.Anybody with a kolthu can become a kolthukarar or an engineer and build dams and bridges and airplanes.
Similarly, any TOM, DICK, and HARRY can reform a religion without knowing the philosophies, and scriptures and rituals. What all one needs is a mouth to bash brahmins and it will be immediately called a reform.

To oppose usama binalden's atrocities should one be an expert in quran and islam?To oppose forcible conversions by missionaries should one be an expert in Bible?
 

kudumi

Active member
Its because of Aravekkadus, trying to reform others :))

To oppose usama binalden's atrocities should one be an expert in quran and islam?To oppose forcible conversions by missionaries should one be an expert in Bible?
Do you think, the other way is also possible? that atrocities were originally performed to "reform" others with the half baked knowledge one has?
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Do you think, the other way is also possible? that atrocities were originally performed to "reform" others with the half baked knowledge one has?

That possibility too is there.In Russia and china, communist reformers performed atrocities on the orthodox. But such incidents are far outnumbered by religious fascists who unleashed terror and violence on the innocent for centuries.eg:Taliban,jihadis,crusaders and proponents of varnashrama.
 

kudumi

Active member
religious intolerance itself is a kind of reform.

That possibility too is there.In Russia and china, communist reformers performed atrocities on the orthodox. But such incidents are far outnumbered by religious fascists who unleashed terror and violence on the innocent for centuries.eg:Taliban,jihadis,crusaders and proponents of varnashrama.

Religious intolerance itself is a result of trying to "reform" the person belonging to another religion or has a different point of view.

So anything with the view that "my view is right-all others are wrong" leads to conflict. Hinduism has taught tolerance towards other religions. Hinduism is one of the religions that talks about the equality of women.

I dont understand your quote about the violence uleashed by varnashrama followers. The very fact that you sit in a cozy comfortable place, and throw mud on hinduism alone indicates how much of freedom it allows the so called followers to throw mud on itself.
Do you have any historic facts on the violence unleashed by varnashrama followers? If so please quote. Otherwise dont make unwanted statements.

It requires a Shankara, or a Ramanuja, or a Madhwa to formulate a philosphy and reform a religion. Not the politically motivated power hungry, casteist, corrupt politicians, or the people who sit in A/C rooms and type these.

Afterall, thalapa katti, meesa vachavan ellam bharathi aayida mudiyathu.
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Religious intolerance itself is a result of trying to "reform" the person belonging to another religion or has a different point of view.

So anything with the view that "my view is right-all others are wrong" leads to conflict. Hinduism has taught tolerance towards other religions. Hinduism is one of the religions that talks about the equality of women.

Ofcourse reforms lead to conflict.If dalits remain in slums and dont come to schools,colleges or temples there wonnt be any conflicts.If they still salute the devar and vanniyar castes,take their chappels in hands while they walk in streets and stop demanding that their corpses should be burnt in the public burial ground, there wont be any caste based conflicts or fights.

So I do agree that if the above said reforms did not happen,there wouldnt have been any conflicts at all.total peace would have prevailed in the country.Reforms do lead to intolerance towards casteism and oppression.Upper castes do have a "different view" about allowing dalits on streets, temples and schools and reformers do argue "I am right, you are wrong".I agree with this.

Reforms are not meant to be peaceful.They arent supposed to use "goody-goody" words like 'All are right,you are right,I am right,he is right" etc.Reformers are not supposed to preach tolerance.They are supposed to create conflicts and struggles.


I dont understand your quote about the violence uleashed by varnashrama followers. The very fact that you sit in a cozy comfortable place, and throw mud on hinduism alone indicates how much of freedom it allows the so called followers to throw mud on itself.
Do you have any historic facts on the violence unleashed by varnashrama followers? If so please quote. Otherwise dont make unwanted statements.

Let me tell you one example.

In 19th century, Sanar women(nadar community women) were not permitted to wear any dress on their upper body.Their men remained illiterate and uneducated and climbed palm trees to survive.Then one day nadar women started fighting for the right to wear saree.They organized a movement which was called as "thol seelai poorattam(தோள்சீலை போரட்டம்).This movement just asked for the rights to wear saree on their shoulders.

Uppercastes in kerala and tamilnadu violently opposed this right.Then king of kerala (swathi thirunal's brother) oppressed this movement with an iron fist.Many sanars were killed, burnt and hacked into pieces.Then finally british government intervened and ordered the king to grant that right.So finally the king passed an order permitting that these women can cover their upperbody with a saree,but that dress should be 'different from higher caste women'.

You asked an incident,so I gave one.If you want 1000 incidents,I can give them.Should I quote pappapatti,keeripatti or thinniyam were a dalit was forced to eat shit by devar community people?

In fact if one just sees that 15% of indian population are reduced to poverty and have been made to live in slums, eating dead cows and animals,without education and healthcare and doing menial jobs like toilet cleaning, even washing mensus clothes of caste hindu women and cleaning streets for generations together-one wouldnt ask what violence was perpetuated in name of varnashrama.

It is an ongoing violence which is continuing even after thousands of years


It requires a Shankara, or a Ramanuja, or a Madhwa to formulate a philosphy and reform a religion. Not the politically motivated power hungry, casteist, corrupt politicians, or the people who sit in A/C rooms and type these.

Afterall, thalapa katti, meesa vachavan ellam bharathi aayida mudiyathu.

Take the example of the sanar women's struggle which I mentioned earlier.What should have they done?should they have waited for a shankara or ramanuja?

They waited for centuries.None came.

The only people who came to reform the atrocities were british.British werent knolwedgable in vedas and shastras.They did not wear a thalappa and moustache like bharathi.
icon6.gif


What should have the sanar women done?Sit and gaze at the sky waiting for a devathootha to reform their religion or accept the help of British?
icon12.gif


To reform a religion,one needs only a thinking brain and a merciful heart.Nothing more is needed.
icon12.gif
 
Last edited:

silverfox

Active member
<<Goundamani ---- Ofcourse reforms lead to conflict.If dalits remain in slums and dont come to schools,colleges or temples there wonnt be any conflicts.If they still salute the devar and vanniyar castes,take their chappels in hands while they walk in streets and stop demanding that their corpses should be burnt in the public burial ground, there wont be any caste based conflicts or fights.>>

Dear Goundamani:
Without going into the merits of the discussions between you and Kudumi (by the way, both of you are excellent writers!), I do agree with you that reforms must be carried out for the good of the community and it WILL have resistance and lead to conflicts.
Anyway, the reason for my posting is not for that. Now that I am in Chennai for the last two months, I have learnt about the political parties here. Your statement in Red above caught my attention. Is this true even today? If this is so, then how can Mr. Karunanidhi, the champion of dalits, associate with that party, PMK? Even the PMK founder beats his chest about how they are for the under-privileged and oppressed. The interesting thing is noone i spoke to don't know what this party stands for!

On another note, I was elated about Mr. Balakrishnan, a dalit, being made the Chief Justice of India, and that, too, not by reservation, mind you!!
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Dear silverfox,

DMk is not the champion of dalit rights.That's a misnomer.DMK tragets BC's, MBC's,christian and muslims.Dalits have traditionally been with ADMk.

After PMk and dalit panthers came to the scene, MBC's(vanniyar) moved away to PMK and dalits moved away to dalit panthers and puthiya thamizakam.So the vote banks of these parties eroded.

Even though a section of vanniyars illtreat dalits, PMK's ramdoss tries his level best to stop this atrocity.He has an alliance with dalith panthers thirumavalavan.

Before some years in a village called kudithangi when a dalit's corpse was refused entry into vanniyar streets by vanniyars,PMK ramdoss went to that village and carried the corpse in his shoulders and took it in the vanniyar streets into the burial ground.As a result thirumavalavan gave him the title "tamil kudithangi" in a meeting.

I am no admirer of ramdoss,but I really like such gestures from our political leaders.Late MGR too did a similiar thing with a dalith's corpse.
 

mrifan

Active member
Hmm, not so sure of that

Not withstanding the goody-goody post by Mr. Goundamani, the reality is quite different. And also, the so-called good relations between Vanniyar-Dalit communities and the saintly aspects of Ramadoss is a major misrepresentation of the facts. He primarily rose on the backs of violence against Dalits and Govt property including burning of buses, blocking of highways by cutting trees, burning tyres, attacking villagers with sickles in groups etc. In the late 80's almost 25,000 Dalit huts were burnt and Dalits attacked and made homeless and some killed during the Vanniyar agitation led by Mr. Ramadoss.

Check the following article about the Dalit-Vanniyar conflicts from last year. Does not seem so rosy to me. Looks more like a temporary truce between the two communities for now. By the way the two-tumbler system is still intact, wonder why Ramadoss does not reform his caste first before asking Brahmins to reform themselves.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/20/stories/2006042005411300.htm

But of course after burning Dalits huts, they will turn around and blame Brahmins and ask for reservations in the name of social justice!

Also, this Ramadoss asked to separate TN into two states in 2002 (primarily Vanniar dominated districts), and wanted a Vanniar to be the Chief Minister. If that is not casteist, I do not know what is. And they have been reaping the benefits of MBC reservations, pushing aside other MBCs. No wonder he is against the exclusion of the affluent layer, the first casualty will be his votebank who are snatching opportunities from other castes.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1917/19170400.htm

And rightly so, Thol Thirumavalavan fought against this separatist demand because he knew what it would entail for the Dalits who ended up in that state. Here is another link to his interview in 2002:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/12inter.htm

And lastly, the following is a fascinating look into the whole Dravidian movement, which was primarily an upper-caste Non-Brahmin movement against the domination of the Brahmins who rose to prominence during British rule as administrators and judges.


http://www.tamilnation.org/caste/nambi.htm
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Neither Ramdoss nor thirumavalavan created castes.:love: Both of them started parties for their respective castes,because they felt that their castes were backward. When they opposed each other,it automatically happened that the fight between two parties became fight between two castes.For example in the Hindu cite you had given,they have written about chidambaram violence against dalits in 1999.At that election thiruma contested from chidambaram and ponnusamy from PMk opposed him.electoral clashes emerged and when PMK attacked dalith panthers members,it automatically became vanniyars attacking dalits.

I am not arguing that Ramdoss did not do caste based politics.I would only say that caste based politics arose because there are castes. Caste based fights arise because there are castes. When two caste based parties are strong in same area and they become rivals,naturally there will be caste wars.

After allying with thiruma,the situation in northern districts is far better. Although it hasnt absolutely stopped the violence between these two castes, in long run we can hope that it happens.

Ramdoss indeed ask for a seperate tamilnadu.But he did so because his party is strong in northern districts.And his party is strong in northern districts because it is vanniyar belt.And since 99.99% of his partymen are vanniyars,only a vanniyar can become CM. So this is a chicken first or egg first type of problem.:love:

Some time back,you asked for seperate union territory for brahmins, so I guess there is nothing wrong in such demands.And naturally if such a union territor emerges,I guess that only a brahmin will become chief minister:love:

But after allying with thiruma,ramdoss said 'If PMK captures power,thambi thiruma will become CM"
 
Last edited:

mrifan

Active member
Personal responsibility

Now that the truth is exposed behind the saint Mr. Ramadoss, I have one question. If I were to tell some guy, go jump off a cliff, would a person not be extremely foolish to do so? Similarly, since Brahmins have not been in power for more than 50 years, why don't the Vanniars and Dalits demonstrate their superior morals and culture by ensuring that all Vanniar girls marry Dalit men and vice versa? Who is going to stop them? Brahmins? No. Govt? No, Karu will probably welcome it. So unlike Brahmins, who we all accept are corrupt and casteist and will not intermarry, why don't all the other enlightened "oppressed" castes, who by the way have entrenched political and police power, show the way to a caste free society?

Is it maybe because the Brahmins were just the excuse, and that groupism is inbuilt into human thinking? Hypocrites and apologists abound everywhere, dodging personal responsibility. They do what they want anyway, and blame someone else for their own failings. And regarding the demand for a separate state for Tambrams, hey I am just following in the footsteps of the saint Ramadoss! He is the Guru, and I am the Shishya.
I learn from our leaders in society :yuck:
 
OP
OP
G

goundamani

Active member
Dear Mrifan,

Vanniyars and dalits have become brothers now.Let us hope that they will soon become become maman machan by inter caste marriages:thumb: .

The problem has never been with brahmins. It was with varnashrama. Not all brahmins follow varnashrama. But somehow varnashrama deeply got into the minds of people and it is very difficult to uproot a concept like this within 50 or 100 years.To tell an example it will be easy for a vanniyar family to accept a daughter in law from muthaliyar or pillai family, which is hierarchically ahead of them in varnashrama hierarchy.But the same vanniyar family will not accept a dalit women as their daughter in law.

Varnshrama is slowly being replaced by hinduism.Thankfully this process will speed up due to urbanization and globalization.

And all the best for shishya and guru in their endeavors to get two seperate states:thumb:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Thank you for visiting TamilBrahmins.com

You seem to have an Ad Blocker on.

We depend on advertising to keep our content free for you. Please consider whitelisting us in your ad blocker so that we can continue to provide the content you have come here to enjoy.

Alternatively, consider upgrading your account to enjoy an ad-free experience along with numerous other benefits. To upgrade your account, please visit the account upgrades page

You can also donate financially if you can. Please Click Here on how you can do that.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks