DNA basis and genetic identity of Brahmins and Tamil brahmins

[Fehu]

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http://www.ftdna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1269

I request the senior members to go through the research article on the haplotype reseach on brahmins as a group and understand the revelations.
Can we find out the reasons for our characteristics in a scientific way?

Fehu

 

[Desi]

Dear Fehu sir,

Sorry for throwing a damper.

If becoming a Brahman determined who got the pick of the best brides,...

Brahminism was started by the migrating Indo-Aryans in the north west. And Brahmins from there spread across India.

These views of those so called researchers reveal that they are a bunch of misinformed leftist intellectuals regurgitating their white men's feed to which they are used to and posing to read tea leaves with their perverted intellects.

I am just calling a spade a spade.

Why is it so important that we have to ditch our own Vedic understanding and go for blatantly stupid and idiotic racial profilers' barf?

Fehu sir, once again I am not finding fault with you.

Regards,

 

[Fehu]

As a scientist and researcher I know by experience Genes and environment and even repetivie practice mutually influence to the extent of mutation.In that context this is worthwhile to analyse further.Even Bala Gangathar Tilak has written about migration of the Central Europeans to India. if you any experience to the contrary please contribute with evidence.Otherwise apply your thought process to refute it with convincing arguements.Let us not blame any group now.Let us analyse further.

 

[Desi]

I am a scientist too. That is why I questioned.

 

[Fehu]

mere questioning is not enough .please contribute your analysis with evidences.

 

[Desi]

Dear Fehu,

You didn't present any paper of your own. You only quoted some racist ***. I don't have to respond to that.

Regards,

 

[Fehu]

I am not bothered about any criticism etc.Understanding our lineage through a genetic variation is quite understandable.You leave apart what they want to prove etc.There is a genetic distinction and the brahmins are genetically different from the people they live with. Perhaps brahmins have preserved their genetic purity by "sampradya" different way of life. through this forum the discussions are on about the distinctive path of piety and rituals taken by the community.

 

[Desi]

I don't think you would ever find any genetic difference between Brahmin and other varnas. What would that mean if you didn't find any difference?

 

[Chintana]

Dear Desi,

No name calling please!

I edited the bad word you used.

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Fehu,

You didn't present any paper of your own. You only quoted some racist ***. I don't have to respond to that.

Regards,

 

[Chintana]

Dear Desi and Fehu,

I find that both of your exchanges are based on opinions and speculations. I find that you have not used any specific person, article or other source to base your opinion.

In my view this discussion, as it stands, has no merit. Both of you please start making use of proper sources.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[Desi]

Dear Sow Chintana,

I agree and I apologise.

Regards,

 

[Fehu]

Shri Chintanaji,t
I have started the thread with a reliable source of research on haplotypes. Please read on the net on the recent advances on haplotype research and the classification of individuals and grouping under DNA typing. Hence I do not take your comment as based on any merit.
As administrator please read the evidences etc and then the opinion conveyed by me.What Mr Desi is writing is purely his opinion not based on any research. i don't speculate.I link my words to reality on the ground and actual incidents observed by me and original.I write this thinking that "we are all lords among the wits.If some are wits among the lords I cannot help".I have quoted a very reliable resource doing research on gene-splicing.
Regards
Fehu
"Down to Earth prosperity"
Quote: From site
Re: R1a haplotype
"Invaders becoming passive priests sounds bit farfetched

. Considering the fact that caste system was created in North-West India(present day Pakistan, Punjab(India)), why shouldn't one expect that high R1a among Brahmins show that Haplogroup frequency in North-West India? Just a thought. Well, it's also possible that historical migrations also might have changed haplogroup frequency. Tamil Brahmins show R1a at 28%, however, Bengali Brahmins have it at 45%. May be extra 17% are those from Sakas."

UNQUOTE

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Fehu,

I didn't make myself clear in my earlier posting. Apologies.

I understand you quoted a link to a discussion on haplogroup research. But this is also a debate, discussion and a lot of speculation.

While it is an interesting dicussion (on the thread to which you have provided the link) I got the impression that it is more speculative than something which says anything conclusively.

In fact one of the postings reads thus:

"Thank you la roccia and your quote from Dr. Kashyap, for bringing the only modern scientific and genetic contribution to this otherwise wildly speculative thread."

So I felt that you had used speculations as your sources - it is hard to have any productive discussions based on speculations.

Hope this clarifies.

Best Regards,
Chintana

Shri Chintanaji,t
I have started the thread with a reliable source of research on haplotypes. Please read on the net on the recent advances on haplotype research and the classification of individuals and grouping under DNA typing. Hence I do not take your comment as based on any merit.
As administrator please read the evidences etc and then the opinion conveyed by me.What Mr Desi is writing is purely his opinion not based on any research. i don't speculate.I link my words to reality on the ground and actual incidents observed by me and original.I write this thinking that "we are all lords among the wits.If some are wits among the lords I cannot help".I have quoted a very reliable resource doing research on gene-splicing.
Regards
Fehu
"Down to Earth prosperity"
Quote: From site
Re: R1a haplotype
"Invaders becoming passive priests sounds bit farfetched

. Considering the fact that caste system was created in North-West India(present day Pakistan, Punjab(India)), why shouldn't one expect that high R1a among Brahmins show that Haplogroup frequency in North-West India? Just a thought. Well, it's also possible that historical migrations also might have changed haplogroup frequency. Tamil Brahmins show R1a at 28%, however, Bengali Brahmins have it at 45%. May be extra 17% are those from Sakas."

UNQUOTE

 

[Fehu]

Haplo-research necessity

Shri or shrimathi Chintanaji (is addressed as "sow" by Desi. (are you male or female?) anyway my reply is here.

Any research in its pure form is speculation with hyprothesis and then confirmation.Dr Kahasyap of who has written 350 research articles and interpretation of all Vedas. he has himself written that Vedas are fundamental but because it is not an answer to abolition of poverty and it cannot give any blue print for industrial structure etc we will have understand the importance of it from the individual perspective ie human beings inner strength like will-power,intelligence etc.
You cannot politely ignore or casually dismiss what is new and is feed for curious research. Further research is like a three diamentional wheel with foraging probes in all directions.Hence thought process should fathom by hard thinking. It is a method of calibration .Fortunately a sugar molecule attached to nitro-derivative and a phosphate group is able to live by itself creating all uniqueness and a self sustain force with intelligence. i fully believe in this research of haplotypes and interested tamilian brahmin bio-chemist workers can contribute further than the general discussionists who go by impressions.

Fehu
"Down to earth prosperity"

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Fehu,

My responses in maroon italics below...

Usage of big fonts and bold letters either call for emphasis or show anger/impatience in the internet world of etiquette. One cannot use big fonts throughout one's posting for emphasis - it must be used judiciously. If annoyance or anger is the reason you used big fonts then it is misplaced. So I have reduced the font size in my response below. Please avoid 'big' and 'loud' formatting in your future postings.

Shri or shrimathi Chintanaji (is addressed as "sow" by Desi. (are you male or female?) anyway my reply is here.

Why is this question relevant? If somebody addressed me as "Sow" and you didnt see a reply that objected to it, then use that and proceed.

Any research in its pure form is speculation with hyprothesis and then confirmation.

Sure. But at any given point in time there is a consensus about what is the current conclusion. I didn't see that in the discussion you pointed us to.

Dr Kahasyap of who has written 350 research articles and interpretation of all Vedas. he has himself written that Vedas are fundamental but because it is not an answer to abolition of poverty and it cannot give any blue print for industrial structure etc we will have understand the importance of it from the individual perspective ie human beings inner strength like will-power,intelligence etc.

I don't know this Dr. Kashyap. I am not an expert on genetic splicing neither do I claim to be an enthsiast. I try to be a careful reader of information to be best extent I can. When I read the discussion on the link you gave I felt that the discussion was quite speculative and the ideas were somewhat in the nascent stage. When I saw the quote posted above it confirmed what I initially thought.

On another note: While your enthusiasm for the subject is laudable it will be great if you explained to other non-enthusiasts why this topic is important. There is a big 'so what' question that any good piece of research has to answer. I didn't quite get the importance of the issue.

You cannot politely ignore or casually dismiss what is new and is feed for curious research.

I did neither, if you go back and check my posting. I merely asked for more conclusive form of research.


Further research is like a three diamentional wheel with foraging probes in all directions. Hence thought process should fathom by hard thinking. It is a method of calibration.

Thank you. To be fair to you I should probably tell you that I am a social scientist myself.

Fortunately a sugar molecule attached to nitro-derivative and a phosphate group is able to live by itself creating all uniqueness and a self sustain force with intelligence. i fully believe in this research of haplotypes and interested tamilian brahmin bio-chemist workers can contribute further than the general discussionists who go by impressions.

If you had mentioned this in your very first posting along with the link you posted that would have made the understanding of the importance of this topic clearer.

Please recognize that technical subjects need more explanation on how they are relevant for social issues. This is not a hard sciences based forum.

Also for you to get meaningful responses the relevance of the technical topic needs to be explained in simple language to the posters. I believe the response you got was neither erudite nor meaningful.

As it is my job to steer any discussion toward productive ends I intervened. I thought that for a discussion of the complexity you seemed to imply we need to use more research that have a greater degree of consensus.

If you still think the technical details and their implications are worth getting into please state clearly in your posting the importance of the topic and what posters can possibly learn from it.


Fehu
"Down to earth prosperity"

Regards,
Chintana

 

[Fehu]

MS.Chintana,
Dr.R.L.Kashayap is Professor Emeritus of electrical And computer Engineeingat Purdue Indiana USA and has written extensively on all Vedas. He is presently Director of a group on Vedic culture in Bangalore.
If you don't know the subject you should not moderate with words like speculation etc.
Fehu

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Fehu,

MS.Chintana,
Dr.R.L.Kashayap is Professor Emeritus of electrical And computer Engineeingat Purdue Indiana USA and has written extensively on all Vedas. He is presently Director of a group on Vedic culture in Bangalore.
If you don't know the subject you should not moderate with words like speculation etc.

I need to clarify a couple of things with you.

First of all, please address me as "Sowbhagyavathi" or "Sow. Chintana". I prefer that beautiful Sanskrit prefix in this Forum.

Secondly, posters are required to address any moderator of this forum with respect. Please be aware that the tone of your postings to me teeters on the edge of being disrespectful. We, at this forum, take respect in language toward one another, very seriously. I hope you will not put me in a position where I bring this up with you again. For more on this please see my posting here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?p=9305#post9305

Thirdly, to address your point about Dr. Kashyap. I believe I have already addressed this point - that I am neither an enthusiast nor an expert. I posted that quote to show that even members of that forum feel that some of their views are wildly speculative. By giving you that quote I hoped to demonstrate that I was not making an incorrect assessment. For some reason this hasn't convinced you.

Fourthly, if as you say, I shouldn't be moderating on issues I don't know I have the same right to say that you shouldn't be discussing technical issues in a social forum. If you want to discuss gene splicing, this is not the place for you. If you want to share with us your views on the social importance and social implications of gene splicing on our community, you are more than welcome here. Your invitation to the topic was quite technical which is why I believe no one responded to you meaningfully.

Lastly, I don't think it is your place to "tell" me how to moderate. That kind of a patronizing attitude is not appreciated in this forum. In your future exchanges with me I will look forward to you respecting the boundaries which I hope I have made clear in this posting.

Fehu

Best Regards,
Chintana

 

[Fehu]

Ms.Chintana,

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Ha...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200102/ai_n8943570

I have given two links for your research further in this direction with many evidential points

Further as reply to your outpourings and reactions this forum discusses Tamil brahmins and connected issues.What i have given is info on the genetic reality which is axiomatic.This does not require any technical expertise to delve deep don to gather the information.
If you are not able to moderate on this because as you say you are not an enthusiast cut off the postings applying your censorship rights or address it to competent persons for clarification. First independent views require chastening by discussions. If you want the forum to be what you personally think and perceive from the guidelines I am not for it.
I agree with moderation but not with opinionated remarks.


Fehu

 

[Desi]

In cricket the umpire's word is final. Anyone who does not recognize this is not fit to play.

 

[Fehu]

Respected Desiji,

It is a frivolous remark because you call discussions &thoughts of tamil brahmins as "cricket".Please shed your "internal locus".If this portal is run as a sport like cricket I would not have joined this forum. We are all logical peace loving people in search of simple reasons to enable us to correct the wrongs done to the community and also enjoy sharing independent independent views with mutual respect.I have not questioned Chintanaji in any way.I have told that I recognize her right to hold any view.As she is moderating, more of "External locus" and "conciliation to the lot" in a sense of adjustment is necessary.It is a non-controversial statement to the extent of boundaries of rationality I possess in the circumstances.
You quip with small remarks without data based or evidence based discussions, without concessions to the sensitivities of others. I take it a joke and casually dismiss this as yet another remark from the street as all Tamil brahmins were doing all along in the history.

Fehu

In cricket the umpire's word is final. Anyone who does not recognize this is not fit to play.

 

[Desi]

I take it a joke and casually dismiss this as yet another remark from the street as all Tamil brahmins were doing all along in the history.

Lot of bombastic, self-placating words laced with insult heaped on the community of Brahmins - but are just a lot of air in a baloon! One prick and it is gone!

In any case, you would listen to the umpire, won't you?

 

[Chintana]

Fehu,

Ms.Chintana,

I already mentioned that I prefer being addressed as Sowbhagyavathi or "Sow. Chintana". I see you have not respected my preference.

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Haplotype+and+brahmins+utility&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

This is a general google search result which tells anyone who sees it that there exists a lot of research on this topic. What exactly do you want posters to do with it?


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200102/ai_n8943570

This article is much more pointed. But still very technical. Those interested in the technical aspects of reverse mutation, I am sure would find it interesting.


I have given two links for your research further in this direction with many evidential points

To prove what? What point are you trying to make?


Further as reply to your outpourings and reactions

Beware Fehu! You are treading on very thin ice here. My short replies don't convince you and my lengthy replies - you characterize as "outpourings and reactions". Learn to respect each person's communication for what it is. The link I sent you should have told you how posters should regard moderators of this forum.


this forum discusses Tamil brahmins and connected issues.What i have given is info on the genetic reality which is axiomatic.This does not require any technical expertise to delve deep don to gather the information.

The article link you pointed establishes this (I am quoting): "To explain the occurrence of the six haplotypes found within these three sites, a haplotype tree is constructed that introduces a new reverse mutation at the SRY-1532 site (G -> A), occurring under the CG + background after the migrant Siddi population arrived in India."

The rest of the matter in that link is no less technical.

Are you trying to say that almost anybody in this forum can discuss this topic intelligently?

I mentioned to you earlier that if you want to explain the social implications of this and conduct a discussion that would be perfectly valid for our members. For that would be in keeping with the objectives, resources and membership base of this forum.

If you are not able to moderate on this because as you say you are not an enthusiast cut off the postings applying your censorship rights or address it to competent persons for clarification. First independent views require chastening by discussions. If you want the forum to be what you personally think and perceive from the guidelines I am not for it.
I agree with moderation but not with opinionated remarks.

If you feel we need to look at options that include technical discussions such as the one you posted you may bring it up to any one of us at the admin. We will discuss it to figure out the possibilities of having that option and institute any policy level changes if deemed necessary. With our current resources and direction we do not have the option of allowing pure technical discussions in this forum.

My experience moderating this forum is almost as long as the existence of this forum itself. As someone who has played a role in shaping its direction and objectives I am well aware of what I am doing.

I hope you read that link I sent you about how posters should deal with moderators.

Any number of our current posters can testify to the fairness established in this forum.

You, on the other hand have demonstrated disrespect for someone who has a larger responsibility toward this forum and its administration. As a policy, this forum does not stand for such things.

Please remember that showing disrespect toward moderators is grounds for banning. So consider yourself warned.

If I see a response from you that demonstrates disrespect toward me I will ban you.

Chintana




Fehu[/quote]

 

[Fehu]

Sorry
I quit the forum voluntarily not out of disrespect but out of the intolerant attitude and bounded rationality of the forum administrators.Tamil brahmins will continue to suffer under your wrongful conduct of the discussions.People like Ramaa and malgova who are frivolous in the remarks can continue to harm the causes with thoughtless discussions.
The Administrator wants more respect than that he/she deserves by the depth of her postings.

Dr.Johnson's remarks I repeat again" You prove to be a wit among the lords rather than a lord among the wits"
This forum is fit for some mamis and mamas who have no work.They say "Thinnai" arrratai is good. That is why Late Mr.V.R,Nedunzehiyan of the Dravidian parties, time again mocked at the Thanjvur Brahmins "thinnai arratai" in all his meetings. Although I am for the secular cause discussed by MR.Nachi and Mr.KRS,the administrator thinks that she can tread on everybody without understanding the views expressed in the forum.



Fehu

 

[Chintana]

Thank you for making my job easier.

We value unity over intellectual prowess.

I wish you the best.

Best Regards,
Chintana

Sorry
I quit the forum voluntarily not out of disrespect but out of the intolerant attitude and bounded rationality of the forum administrators.Tamil brahmins will continue to suffer under your wrongful conduct of the discussions.People like Ramaa and malgova who are frivolous in the remarks can continue to harm the causes with thoughtless discussions.
The Administrator wants more respect than that he/she deserves by the depth of her postings.

Dr.Johnson's remarks I repeat again" You prove to be a wit among the lords rather than a lord among the wits"
This forum is fit for some mamis and mamas who have no work.They say "Thinnai" arrratai is good. That is why Late Mr.V.R,Nedunzehiyan of the Dravidian parties, time again mocked at the Thanjvur Brahmins "thinnai arratai" in all his meetings. Although I am for the secular cause discussed by MR.Nachi and Mr.KRS,the administrator thinks that she can tread on everybody without understanding the views expressed in the forum.



Fehu

 

[Chintana]

Sri Desi,

I mentioned this to another poster in another context. I don't know if you have followed all of the recent exchanges.

Can you please refrain from this kind of poking fun at someone who is at the receiving end of the firmness of the moderator? Please put yourself in the position of that person. Fehu probably didn't expect this reaction from the moderator - but when it came he has found it uncomfortable. When people are uncomfortable it would be civilized if we left them alone. Poking fun like this speaks of a lack of civility. I hope you refrain from doing this in the future.

Best Regards,
Chintana

Lot of bombastic, self-placating words laced with insult heaped on the community of Brahmins - but are just a lot of air in a baloon! One prick and it is gone!

In any case, you would listen to the umpire, won't you?