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DMK revives EVR’s hate campaign against Hindus

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Saab

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DMK revives EVR’s hate campaign against Hindus

By Malarmannan


The anti-Brahmin propaganda has lost its verve over a period of time, but it is still dormant in Tamil Nadu. M. Karunanidhi has been its sole revivalist, whipping the dead horse as and when he does not find suitable rejoinder to any valid accusation. When the AIADMK supremo Jayalalithaa, his arch rival, compared him with Ravana, the demon king recently, Karunanidhi could find recourse in his pet theory of ‘Aryan-Dravidian,’ though disproved by expert anthropologists.
One of the important resolutions passed by the working committee of DMK at its meeting held on February 16 under the presidentship of Shri M. Karunanidhi urged the people of Tamil Nadu to literally ‘drive out’ from the Tamil soil the three per cent of the population. The resolution reminds the people of Tamil Nadu that they are 97 per cent of the total population whereas their traditional enemies are just three per cent. The resolution did not specify as to who were these three per cent but those who are used to the Tamil Nadu socio-political scenario know pretty well that it refers to none other than Brahmins in the State.

Since 1920s, Dravidian Movement has been spearheading a hate campaign against Brahmins branding them intruders from Khyber and Bolan passes into Tamil Nadu, corrupting the chaste Tamil culture and tradition. It may look ridiculous at the very first glance, fit to be thrown into the dustbin without a second look but strangely, EVR and his Dravidar Kazagam party could sell this concept to the gullible illiterate and semi literate people of Tamil Nadu. This concept was conveniently based on Aryan-Dravidian theory, cunningly constructed about two centuries ago by the wily Caldwell, a Christian missionary and proselytiser, who wanted to divide Hindu society so that he could easily convert the non-Brahmin communities calling them Dravidians, a separate entity. Despite Brahmins of Tamil Nadu speaking Tamil only at homes as their mother tongue and several of them had done great service for the development of the language and culture, they were described as aliens to Tamil language and culture.

In fact, it was U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, a great Tamil scholar, who toiled to recover many ancient Tamil works from old palm leaves that were briskly being dined by white ants. Those deteriorating palm leaves were scattered in different parts of the State and he spent his time, energy and hard earned money in search of them and made them available in print. As he was not financially sound, he begged and borrowed so that the precious wealth of the Tamils could see the light of the day. Subramanya Bharati, another Brahmin, woke up theTamils from their slumber in the early twentieth century with his spirited poems so that they could become aware of their rich heritage. There are still many Brahmin scholars and researchers who are silently engaged in varied fields for the development of Tamil language and culture.

The most harmful disservice to the Hindu society in Tamil Nadu by E.V. Ramaswami Naicker, known as EVR and popularly addressed as ‘Thanthai Periyar’ by his followers meaning “Father Greatman”, was to divide it on the lines of Brahmins and non-Brahmins. This venom has spread all over Tamil society and has become a permanent syndrome visible at least feebly in every segment from academic circle to contemporary literary gatherings to cultural events, from social activities to political considerations.

The anti-Brahmin propaganda has lost its verve over a period of time, but it is still dormant in Tamil Nadu. M. Karunanidhi has been its sole revivalist, whipping the dead horse as and when he does not find suitable rejoinder to any valid accusation. When the AIADMK supremo Jayalalithaa, his arch rival, compared him with Ravana the demon king recently, Karunanidhi could find recourse in his pet theory of ‘Aryan-Dravidian,’ though disproved by expert anthropologists. For him and his party, Brahmins are Aryans and all Non-Brahmins are Dravidians, for reason best known to them only.

Quoting Nehru’s ‘discovery’ that Ramayana was nothing but the narration of Aryan-Dravidian war, Karunanidhi donned the warrior of Dravidians and Jayalalithaa the representative of Aryans, as she happens to be a Brahmin, caste wise.

As the legend goes, Ravana was the son of a Brahmin sage, should be an ‘Aryan’ according to the findings of Dravidian pundits but it did not occur to Karunanidhi in the heat of political rivalry. He could only remember Nehru’s discovery about Ramayana and grabbed the role of Ravana! However, he could not find a suitable villain role of an Aryan character for Jayalalithaa.

Interestingly, EVR was also not kind towards the depressed classes. His concern was only about the welfare of the second and third strata of the society. For him, the top and the bottom segments of the society were to be kept at bay so that the in-between communities could climb up the ladder of prosperity. When there was acute shortage of foodgrains and clothing, an aftermath of the Second World War, EVR attributed it to the “untouchables’ becoming ‘cultured.’

There was great uproar against EVR in 1948 from the depressed classes in the State for his utterance that the price of the cloth had gone up because the women of ‘untouchables’ had also started wearing blouse and all of them have learnt to dress decently. Their staple food had changed from millets to rice and that made the rice scarce. Rice was considered the choice of the upper classes and millets were fit for the poor and downtrodden only according to the social standards. Taking exception to EVR’s observation, there were demonstrations by many associations of depressed classes all over Tamil Nadu demanding apology from him. But EVR was adamant as usual and never cared to express regrets over his ‘findings!’ The issue died down in course of time.

Now that Jayalalithaa is a Brahmin, Karunanidhi has taken up the rusting anti-Brahmin slogan from his dust-gathering political weaponry, forgetting that he is not just the president of a party but occupying the seat of the Chief Minister of the State also. He can seldom allow under his nose, a resolution that would create enmity among the people, thereby encouraging serious law and order unrest to brew.

Our Constitution has categorically stated that it is a punishable offence to induce hatred against one particular community and attempting to divide the people on that score. And Karunanidhi holds the post of the Chief Minister having taken oath of sincerity and be honest to the Constitution. If the Chief Minister himself spearheads a hate campaign against one particular community in the society, it would be seen as the green signal to anti-social elements in the State to indulge in all sorts of crimes towards that community and it would also strengthen the division among Hindus in Tamil Nadu on the basis of Brahmins and Non-Brahmins.

Obviously, saner elements in the society expect unanimous condemnation from all quarters to the DMK’s hate campaign resolution. The Centre should also view this seriously and warn Karunanidhi that it did not behove of a Chief Minister to behave irresponsibly.

(The writer is a senior journalist and can be contacted at Second Floor, 67/12, Bajanai Koil Street, Pallipattu Main Road, Chennai-600 113.)
 
Latest news on non-brahmin temple priest

Dear all
The following information was released in Tamil Nadu state assembly by DMK Govt.

There are total 6 centers started by TN Govt. for priestly training for non-brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

On total, there are 207

76- Backward class students

55- Most Backward class students

34 - Scheduled caste students

42 - other caste students.

I consider this as epitome of humiliation. If Tamil Brahmins have any back bone, they should move to other states or stop paying taxes to TN Govt. This is time to protest.
 
On the contrary I think Tamil Brahmins are the only people who can restore the lost pride of Hinduism. Why can't they ensure the alignment of Hindus against others. I think DK and DMK are fully mistaken because they do not realise the geo-political situation in the world today. Today Hindus are more assertive. What we need is consolidation of this assertiveness. Karunanidhi is worried about loosing Hindu votes if it gets consolidated. It is time to politically tackle this political animal.
 
On the contrary I think Tamil Brahmins are the only people who can restore the lost pride of Hinduism. Why can't they ensure the alignment of Hindus against others. I think DK and DMK are fully mistaken because they do not realise the geo-political situation in the world today. Today Hindus are more assertive. What we need is consolidation of this assertiveness. Karunanidhi is worried about loosing Hindu votes if it gets consolidated. It is time to politically tackle this political animal.

But the problem is Hindus have no unity. They always fought among themselves making it easy for Muslims and British to invade India. They are still fighting among themselves. So it will never happen.
 
ahh vanam,

are you willing to say all hindus are equals? are you willing to be inclusive that all castes including dalits are equal to the brahmins?

should we not have a sense of fairness, that we invoke 'Hindu' as a concept, when we deal with each other? in your other post you have insinuated a supposed humiliation to the brahmins. here you talk of hindus inclusively.

i have found, when convenient, self proclaimed brahmins are 'Hindu inclusive' to suit their immediate purpose. otherwise, it is the moans of 'discrimination' and 'deprival of due rights'

most of us, have gone way beyond that. grow up.
 
ahh vanam,

are you willing to say all hindus are equals? are you willing to be inclusive that all castes including dalits are equal to the brahmins?

should we not have a sense of fairness, that we invoke 'Hindu' as a concept, when we deal with each other? in your other post you have insinuated a supposed humiliation to the brahmins. here you talk of hindus inclusively.

i have found, when convenient, self proclaimed brahmins are 'Hindu inclusive' to suit their immediate purpose. otherwise, it is the moans of 'discrimination' and 'deprival of due rights'

most of us, have gone way beyond that. grow up.

Whether Hindu includes dalits or not, there is no unity among Hindus at present. You are changing the course of discussion. Im not sure who needs to grow up here.
 
I consider this as epitome of humiliation. If Tamil Brahmins have any back bone, they should move to other states or stop paying taxes to TN Govt. This is time to protest.

Mr vanam9394,

I dont understand why you think it is "epitome of humiliation".

My take is this :

Hindus are not a homogenous entity. We have multiplicity in every facet of our religion. Therefore, i find it surprising that you dont feel that there is a place for everyone in the religion.

If you are not welcome at someone's residence, will you be happy to be his friend or neighbour ? Why should a non-brahmin continue to be a Hindu if he is denied the opportunity to "serve the Lord" especially when he "deserves".

Brahmins are under a mistaken notion that Hinduism equals Brahmanism. IMHO no, it isnt. Numerically, we need the non-brahmins to be a Hindu-majority nation even if not a theocracy.

I will tell you what was the epitome of humiliation ! The egregious Dravidian Govt first tried to push thru the "Equal opportunity scheme" saying that the denial was only based on birth-related discrimination. Later it was held by the courts that one needs to be qualified to be a priest.

That the Dravidian Govt would establish training centers is a huge climbdown nay a victory of sorts as they have recognised that one needs to qualify for priesthood.

It is not exactly as if the non-brahmins who are being trained will be sporting lungi , t-shirt, smoke & drink within the temple precincts. (I know of some brahmin priests who do outside temple premises !). As long as they "discharge the functions responsibly", why should brahmins feel insulted ?

The clincher according to me is this : If we are to be true to Manu, we should all be reciting vedas, spending our lives as mendicants, living frugally etc... This automatically means that we cannot be doing what we are doing today.

So if we have moved to the functions of other groups, how is it fair that we keep our turf protected ?

With a name like "vanam", i am sure sir, you can be more accomodative than this. :)
 
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General Discussions:

After reading the posts on this subject, I am a confused man. Who is a Hindu, what is Hinduism, Am I a Hindu ? Where does the scripture talk about Hindu or Hinduism? Do we still practice "varnasrama" as enunciated in the scriptures ? If the intention of God (or nature) to have a society based on equality then why do we have so much of differences in creation itself ? Are all persons born in Brahmin families are equal ? Don't we have differences like rich, poor, high, low, black, white, Dwaitha, Visishtadwaita, Advaita , gothra,etc. etc.? Are all other people apart from Brahmins practice equality among the castes strictly ?
All through my life I wanted to liberate myself from these shackles and look at the world without blinkers to seek the path to find my creator. But when I travel in these endless circles of confusion I find that I am yet to begin my spiritual quest.

Regards,
Brahmanyan.
 
Mr vanam9394,

I dont understand why you think it is "epitome of humiliation".

Athu thane, evallave periya mariyathe senjirukkaru - manja thundu than pothanum

My take is this :

Hindus are not a homogenous entity. We have multiplicity in every facet of our religion.

What an insight - columbus kottaiya

Therefore, i find it surprising that you dont feel that there is a place for everyone in the religion.

mmmm - ariyama pesarangapa

If you are not welcome at someone's residence, will you be happy to be his friend or neighbour ? Why should a non-brahmin continue to be a Hindu if he is denied the opportunity to "serve the Lord" especially when he "deserves".

NAMMA PERIYAVANGELLAM NAMMALA MOSAM PANNITANGAPA
ENNAVO MOKSHAM,MOKSHAMNU - CHE SUTHHA MOSAM. ENNA THERIYUM AVANGALLUKKU


Brahmins are under a mistaken notion that Hinduism equals Brahmanism. IMHO no, it isnt. Numerically, we need the non-brahmins to be a Hindu-majority nation even if not a theocracy.

What a clarity

I will tell you what was the epitome of humiliation ! The egregious Dravidian Govt first tried to push thru the "Equal opportunity scheme" saying that the denial was only based on birth-related discrimination. Later it was held by the courts that one needs to be qualified to be a priest.

That the Dravidian Govt would establish training centers is a huge climbdown nay a victory of sorts as they have recognised that one needs to qualify for priesthood.

enna nyayan, neethi , nermai - etha purinjukkama

It is not exactly as if the non-brahmins who are being trained will be sporting lungi , t-shirt, smoke & drink within the temple precincts. (I know of some brahmin priests who do outside temple premises !). As long as they "discharge the functions responsibly", why should brahmins feel insulted ?

thevaiye illai pa - annavasiyam

The clincher according to me is this : If we are to be true to Manu, we should all be reciting vedas, spending our lives as mendicants, living frugally etc... This automatically means that we cannot be doing what we are doing today.

So if we have moved to the functions of other groups, how is it fair that we keep our turf protected ?

appadi podu arivale.

With a name like "vanam", i am sure sir, you can be more accomodative than this.

kathukkonga iyya kathukonga
 
Dear Hariji,
".....smoke & drink within the temple precincts. (I know of some brahmin priests who do outside temple premises !)."

I am not saying that you are telling untruth. But lumping the vast majority of pious Brahmins with the exceptions lacks decency.

I feel it is like spitting on one's own face.

Sorry, but I had to say.

Regards,
Saab
 
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Dear Hariji,

I am not saying that you are telling untruth. But lumping the vast majority of pious Brahmins with the exceptions lacks decency.

I feel it is like spitting on one's own face.

Sorry, but I had to say.

Regards,
Saab

Mr Saab,

Dont you think the word "some" brahmin "tempers" my statement ?

I write (rather fight !) in another forum (one of the members of the other forum has a handle here too, so he would know my avatar there) where i have been consistently standing up against broadbrushing and lampooning of brahmins enmasse.

I am, therefore, conscious of "generalization" and let me assure you, such a thing was farthest from my mind.

If you still feel that i am "generalizing", i will be only too happy to withdraw the statement. I am very well aware of the pitfalls of lying on the back and spitting up.

And Mr MMji,

I enjoyed your "inline comments" to my post, laced with "appreciable sarcasm". I dont mind it a bit. The problem though is i dont know what your counter is.

My point is that we cannot seek "Hindu unity" when we dont want to pursue inclusivity.

Help me understand something.

If there is a brahmin who is well versed in vedas, scriptures and a non-brahmin equally well versed in both, would you still oppose the non-brahmin from becoming a temple priest ?

It has been my consistent stand in this forum that in the public domain there is no room for discrimination. Temple affair is a public domain. It is not as if there is any compulsion for anyone to engage the "non brahmin" priests for household functions, so i really dont know what the fuss is about !

Let me, very humbly submit that i dont even know 'v' of vedas or 's' of scriptures. I dont think i will get any better in either of them. So, if my interpretation of vedas is "too simplistic", i request you to not get upset. I am just a speck of dust, so, you really dont need to unleash a gale to blow me over. Just say "you are wrong" and i am happy to take your word for it.

I am a ritual agnostic, so that's perhaps aiding me to take this in my stride.
 
Hariji,

Thanks for the clarification. Appreciate it.

I still think that we should not deviate from the basic 'secular' demand that the Govt. stop meddling in the affairs of the religions of the people. If people from within a religion have differences then they would start a sect of their own and carry on with their lives as they do in the west and even in our religion in the past. Hope you would find that more rational than falling prey to the atheists smothering the theists by the color of their office. People like Vanamji would then be found rational in his own context.

Regards,
Saab
 
Dear Sri Hari,

You never cease to amaze me. I can learn quite a few pointers from you as to how to tackle this unwarranted sarcasm,

I definitely lack your patience and skill.

Thanks.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Dear Sri Hari,

You are very right and noble in your intention, that is the reason I've tried in many ways to open a conversation with you.

Your are very wrong , in trashing the prevalent custom and culture, hoping that would meet your objective.

Your are wrong , in not making an attempt to know vedas and scriptures, which are the foundation of our culture. You may not need to know in its entirety, atleast you should know, that we as a followers of a native culture followed the footsteps of Vedas and Scriptures

Your are very wrong, without knowing anything about the scriptures, to trash the culture as advised by the scriptures.

You are very wrong, to trample the sensitives of believers.

Your are very wrong , that by accommodating others in the way as you suggested would bring unity among us.

Regards

MALGOVA.MANGO
 
Dear Sri Hari,
Mr MM,

my line comments in red

You are very right and noble in your intention, that is the reason I've tried in many ways to open a conversation with you.

Thanks. However as i traverse down, i am surprised as to how my "noble intention" degenerates. I say this, without an iota of sarcasm, as i am unable to reconcile how with a "noble intention" and being "very right", i can be "very wrong" as well.

Are you suggesting that my end is right but not my means ?


Your are very wrong , in trashing the prevalent custom and culture, hoping that would meet your objective.

Help me understand where and how i am trashing custom and culture. Sir, i cant accept and dont think that culture is frozen in time. It has to be an evolving entity with a "core" that is constant.

Your are wrong , in not making an attempt to know vedas and scriptures, which are the foundation of our culture.

If i were you, i wouldnt probably call it "wrong". I would rather say, it is "desirable" to know the vedas and scriptures. As much as i desire, i hope you would appreciate that my attempts to know them is also a function of my ability. Also i cant help have a feeling that these are my "best years" so far as focussing on my career is concerned. Hopefully i wont leave it for too late. Point taken.

You may not need to know in its entirety, atleast you should know, that we as a followers of a native culture followed the footsteps of Vedas and Scriptures

I say this not to throw a challenge at you, but in all right earnest. Is there something in the Vedas or Scriptures that precludes someone from serving the Lord ?

Your are very wrong, without knowing anything about the scriptures, to trash the culture as advised by the scriptures.

Again sir, please let me know where & how i am trashing the culture. I am confident that i am not trashing culture because if i do so, i am trashing myself. To me culture is sum of parts of what we are and what we believe. How can it then be a case that what i believe is not part of culture ?

And what have i done to trash culture ? I am just saying that anyone who is qualified to serve the Lord be allowed to do so. Again the question, is someone precluded as per Vedas and scriptures ?

You are very wrong, to trample the sensitives of believers.

I dont think i am doing that. I am only trying to submit to you that if anyone who is otherwise qualified to serve the Lord is precluded from doing so, are we not guilty of trampling his sensitivities.

Your are very wrong , that by accommodating others in the way as you suggested would bring unity among us.

How else do you think we forge unity ? Actually on second thoughts, "accomodating" is such a wrong word. I will tell you why. It presupposes that "we are in some position from where we will decide whom to accomodate and whom not to". I dont think that the vedas and scriptures do in away place us in a position from where we would issue decrees. I dont buy it.

Regards
Regards

MALGOVA.MANGO
Hari
 
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Dear Sri MMji,
Your are wrong , in not making an attempt to know vedas and scriptures, which are the foundation of our culture. You may not need to know in its entirety, atleast you should know, that we as a followers of a native culture followed the footsteps of Vedas and Scriptures
In making the above statement you have the best of intention, however, one should not be 'seen' to be imposing his views. People have their own inclination to pursue in their pravrthi.

There is a shakthi in avidya also and it has to exhaust. So let it!

Regards,
Saab
 
Dear Sri Saab!

You are one of the treasure I found in this forum. Thanks for your guidance.

May I respectfully point out, If they don't cross the line, and stick to their line of inclination. I would not have to point out this.

Regards

malgova.mango
 
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sri Hari![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You asked me to tell you wrong, if you were. I told. You took in a very good stride. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now you are asking for explanation. I'll give. Before that I want to check and clear with you few things, [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]one: -[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Attitude - Is it out of urge to gain clarity? OR to proove that the traditional views are wrong OR to proove your line of thought OR some other reasons.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]two : - [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]before this, In one of the other posts, I've asked you to kindly consider my views , have you done that? - (I mean, the reply post for your “Nacchu”nnu erruku remarks – that one , strangely I also felt the same way “nacchu”nnu.) If not, – not a problem , just to avoid repititions which might arise.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]three :-[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Did you read the benefits of Jati system as expounded by “Maha Perieava” and gave a thought about it. Did you read HH observation on many other things. I consider Him as a great scholar and gnani with tapas to gain insights in very subtle issues. A very good authority who gives equal respect to Veda Purva and Veda Anta. If you don't read – not a problem , but it helps me , if you did read, because I can refer to a common source of knowledge.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Four :- [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Since you are frank that you know nothing about scriptures and vedas – May I ask in what way you consider that you are qualified to talk on this subject? I mean do you do your regular sandhyavandanams, atleast to the extent possible in this busy world, atleast on holidays......Please don't take any offense, if you don't , but the anushtanams helps in bringing maturation, it becomes much easier to explain my perspective as the subject matter is complex. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Please bear with me, my previous sincere attempts with others to clear my position gave me only muted response and some bad-mouthing. I don't want to get trapped again in this mindless “ego-games” that's why I'm posing this questions. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I also want to set some simple rules before engaging in this dialogue, like I told KRS – one point at a time, one can have many arguments supporting to that but only one issue at a time. Thereby we won't miss any thing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I believe in open dialogues, no man's view is 100 % perfect and error free, I can learn from you and I believe you can also learn from me. We should try to do away as far as posiible with Jalpa and Vithanda Vatham. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you feel fair about it, give me a reply. We will go through in a leisurely and in a open way.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]One thing good about you is , you have a rich vocabulary and articulation skills – this, I definetly can pick from you.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hoping the best from you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malgova.mango[/FONT]
 
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sri Hari![/FONT]
Dear Mr MM

My inline responses.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You asked me to tell you wrong, if you were. I told. You took in a very good stride. [/FONT]

Thanks. If there is a fact to be faced, i have not flinched, so it wasnt too difficult after all.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now you are asking for explanation. I'll give. Before that I want to check and clear with you few things, [/FONT]

Sure

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]one: -[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Attitude - Is it out of urge to gain clarity? OR to proove that the traditional views are wrong OR to proove your line of thought OR some other reasons.[/FONT]

I would be lying if i were to say that i had an urge to gain clarity when i responded to Mr Vanam. I was sharing my perspective which you obviously disagree. Now that you feel i am in the wrong, i would, for sure, be "interested" in knowing why.

Here's where i think you are making an erroneous conclusion. In a forum such as ours, i believe we are here to share perspectives. I can see that you are operating from a standpoint which views everything in black or white. I dont necessarily subscribe to the view, which is also obvious from the fact that i chose "red" to write my responses. Pardon the flippancy. I somehow feel that the world operates on the principle of "middle ground". Especially in metaphysical matters i am not too sure how something can be slotted as "right or wrong".

So if there is nothing which is fastidiously "right", i dont think there is any need to "prove" afterall.

If you feel that i am out here to counter "traditional views", again, i am not among those who oppose for the sake of opposition. One of my core areas is "Datawarehousing" and we have a concept called "SCD" which expands as "Slowly Changing Dimension". I feel that "Tradition" or "Culture" is a SCD. I dont quite subscribe to the view that we need to box tradition or culture into a corner to rot without gasp of fresh air. A whiff of fresh air (metaphor for fresh thinking) every now and then, in my view, will only enrich tradition.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]two : - [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]before this, In one of the other posts, I've asked you to kindly consider my views , have you done that? - (I mean, the reply post for your “Nacchu”nnu erruku remarks – that one , strangely I also felt the same way “nacchu”nnu.) If not, – not a problem , just to avoid repititions which might arise.[/FONT]

No i havent coz i dont know which one of your views that you specifically want me to consider. On second thoughts, there is nothing i am "not considering". I definitely understand your position. This discussion is more specifically to help me understand where i am going wrong.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]three :-[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Did you read the benefits of Jati system as expounded by “Maha Perieava” and gave a thought about it. Did you read HH observation on many other things. I consider Him as a great scholar and gnani with tapas to gain insights in very subtle issues. A very good authority who gives equal respect to Veda Purva and Veda Anta. If you don't read – not a problem , but it helps me , if you did read, because I can refer to a common source of knowledge.[/FONT]

No i havent read the Kanchi Sr Pontiff's words of wisdom. I have read some of them but specific to the caste system, i dont recall reading anything.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Four :- [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Since you are frank that you know nothing about scriptures and vedas – May I ask in what way you consider that you are qualified to talk on this subject? [/FONT]

I am considering this question in the right spirit. So here goes.

Sir, what is the import of your message ? I have conceded long back that i am as "intelligent as President Bush" in matters of scriptures and vedas. Hence i made my "safe harbor" statement that my "interpretations" can be "blissfully ignorant" (as ignorance is bliss !). But when i have to just apply ratiocination to an issue which in my opinion is not etched in vedas or scriptures, should i be "qualified" ?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I mean do you do your regular sandhyavandanams, atleast to the extent possible in this busy world, atleast on holidays......[/FONT]

No i dont. I do it about once a year during the Avani Avittam.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Please don't take any offense, if you don't , but the anushtanams helps in bringing maturation, it becomes much easier to explain my perspective as the subject matter is complex. [/FONT]

I havent taken any offence at all but i am not certainly understanding as to how ablutions could bring in maturity. I am not sure if i am mature enough but if not, i would like to believe that i am atleast in the cusp of maturity.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Please bear with me, my previous sincere attempts with others to clear my position gave me only muted response and some bad-mouthing. [/FONT]

I hope i havent bad-mouthed you.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I don't want to get trapped again in this mindless “ego-games” that's why I'm posing this questions. [/FONT]

I assure you that the genesis of this discussion from my end is not trapped in any ego

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I also want to set some simple rules before engaging in this dialogue, like I told KRS – one point at a time, one can have many arguments supporting to that but only one issue at a time. Thereby we won't miss any thing. [/FONT]

Fair enough

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I believe in open dialogues, no man's view is 100 % perfect and error free, I can learn from you and I believe you can also learn from me.[/FONT]

Couldnt agree more

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We should try to do away as far as posiible with Jalpa and Vithanda Vatham. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you feel fair about it, give me a reply. We will go through in a leisurely and in a open way.[/FONT]

Done

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]One thing good about you is , you have a rich vocabulary and articulation skills – this, I definetly can pick from you.[/FONT]

I hope i am not making the cardinal sin of mistaking vocabulary for understanding. Just joking.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hoping the best from you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malgova.mango[/FONT]

Not sure about the best, but can assure you that i wont get any worser than this,
Regards, Hari
 
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Dear Sri Hari!

First we deal with this black and white issue.

You are very correct , but I would like to put it in this way.
"that I'm operating from the stand-point that I see this issue clearly Black and white. "
I got every rhyme and reason for that.

I appreciate that you see hues and shades, please believe I'm not not hue or color blind.

I also acknowledge and aware black and white and it is not a problem to me.

1. Any order be it religious or non-religious or bound with do's and don't some are time-honoured customs, some are bound to books.

The legal worlds and commerical world operate only in a black and white basis. The shades and hues are still there but it is bounded by black and white.

2. The higher the order the more the do's and don'ts - (Black and white)


I preceive a sense of fear for authority, decrees, rules from you. Am I correct?
Just say yes or no.

We will continue....

Regards
MM

May be not fear but a sense of discomfort...
 
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Dear Sri Hari,

I do not wish to get in the middle of your discussions with Sri malgova.mango Ji. But, I have read the Hindu Dharma by MahaPeriaval, and let me communicate to you what He has said (I am paraphrasing, but I can quote if necessary):

1. He believed in the original Varna Dharma as the solution to the current day's problems introduced by modernity where we are all competing with each other and are jealous of each other.

2. He believed that He was not interested in the survival of the Brahmin caste, if they do not accomplish two things:
a) They should keep the knowledge of Vedas (especially the oral tradition) alive and
b) They should go back to being the custodians of the intellectual, societal and the cultural aspects of propagating the Hindu Dharma. His view was that other castes will accept the role of Brahmins, if they did that.

Now, to do that, He did not say that 30% of following the Brahmin Dharma as envisioned by the Varna concept was okay. He was envisioning more or less the same village centric life for all the Varnas, that Gandhi Ji envisioned. His solution absolutely was connected to the two objectives cited above.

But then some of our brethren, who are the 30 percenters (or less of following His edicts) are lecturing some of us (who are, may be less than that), how to live our lives. To them 'intent' is everything, even though they assume that the 'intent' for who they classify as 'them' should be less than theirs. Mind you, these folks are in good secular jobs, competing with other jathis (prohibited by the varna system) and they send their offsprings to all the secular schools to 'do well'. Their only concern is that someone does not do 'Sandhyavandanam' three times a day - they think that this is the full 'anushtanam'.

I know there are people like that in our community who follow Maha Periaval's words 100%. And we need to support such families. But I am tired of these pseudo Brahmins, who may not even be 30 percenters, and the e-warriors, lecturing the rest of us, and spreading hate. If they are following Maha Periaval's words, let me tell you, they will not be in this Forum! (or any other for that matter - because they will be living the Brahminical life that He envisioned, where they will not have time in their hands for any other activity).

Pranams,
KRS
 
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Mr MM,

Nope, I dont see hues and shades in a certain sense.

I wonder whether in matters of esoteric doctrines, there can be such a clear demarcation of what is white (right) and black (wrong). So this prompted me to write the way i did.

In a certain sense, i do see hues and shades. I believe truth may have multiple shades, which is perhaps going against convention but that's what i believe.

Regarding the do's and dont's, i see where you are coming from, but again i wonder whether it is ok to be "selectively following" them. I also wonder if there is so much "elbow room" to "selectively follow" then why should we suddenly become pussillanimous in expanding the elbow room for a cause, which i believe is in the larger interest of the religion.

Comparing legal world to religious dogma is doing injustice to both, IMHO.

I dont rule out the fact that i may be lacking clairvoyance, but at this point in time, this is what i believe in.

I dont fear authority nor am i having any discomfiture. My point is that there is no "design against inclusivity" and i cannot believe that such a thing can be God-willed.

Somewhere, i think we are perhaps missing the trees for the wood.
 
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sri Hari![/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Esotric – meta physics – Please don't mystify our native culture by this terminologies. There is nothing mysterious about it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For generations after generations they attended to the Lord as pescribed in the scriptures – A very clear, black and white order that is in practice from time immemorial. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dogmatic- too insensitive a word. - No completely out of spirit. No human being has the authority to impose anything or issue decrees. Definetly they didn't do that, another Black and White point.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]They simply followed the Vedic injunctions as in the Agama Shastra a science of knowledge that deals with Temples – clearly spelling out – who to do, what to do, when to do , how to do of temple management. This is Black and White.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I'll continue with this black and white issue, before I touch other things raised ,............[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]malgova.mango[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]P.s[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I'm off for 2 days – have a good week end – see you on Monday[/FONT]
 
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sri Hari![/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I continue with my Black and Whites.....[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The cm is an self-proclaimed athiest, he didn't have any value for the scriptures nor god. As a democratic politician , he is very much interested in stroking the complexes among various sections of society, for various obvious reasons...[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]At this point , I stop my balck and whites here. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you don't feel these are balck and white as I put forth. Please let's have a cordial discussion, please state the reason why you don't felt that way. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](I've seen your other post, you declaring the scriptural interpretation are “too strict” or “wrong”, With your earlier posts, accepting that you don't know much about scriptures, I couldn't connect how , on what basis you are qualified to assess and form a conclusion like this. )[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]malgova.mango[/FONT]
 
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