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Could the world have done better than democracy?

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sravna

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To me it seems surprising that democracy has survived till today inspite of a major inadequacy. A task as important and critical as running a nation should best be left in the hands of very capable people. Democracy is not adequate in this task as these people are elected by the public which I say seems very unprofessional as the public does not have the required expertise to perform this task competently. Second, they can be influenced. Merit and expertise should be the criteria for people who hold these high offices.

A middle ground would have been better. People though should not be responsible for electing a government they should have the say in voting out a government as the results delivered are something that are tangible and affects the common man.

This way we get the best of both worlds. The professional way of selecting people who govern the country and the popular way of assessing their performance.
 
To me it seems surprising that democracy has survived till today inspite of a major inadequacy. A task as important and critical as running a nation should best be left in the hands of very capable people. Democracy is not adequate in this task as these people are elected by the public which I say seems very unprofessional as the public does not have the required expertise to perform this task competently. Second, they can be influenced. Merit and expertise should be the criteria for people who hold these high offices.

A middle ground would have been better. People though should not be responsible for electing a government they should have the say in voting out a government as the results delivered are something that are tangible and affects the common man.

This way we get the best of both worlds. The professional way of selecting people who govern the country and the popular way of assessing their performance.

Dear Shri Sravna,

The import of your post, especially, the portion "People though should not be responsible for electing a government they should have the say in voting out a government as the results delivered are something that are tangible and affects the common man. " is not clear. Is it that people will not elect the government but will only vote it out? How will a new government be constituted in your perceived set up?

Kindly elucidate.
 
It is not possible in Democracy. only people with money, corrupt, & Scoudrels get elected. It is a tragedy in our Democracy.
 
Dear Shri Sravna,

The import of your post, especially, the portion "People though should not be responsible for electing a government they should have the say in voting out a government as the results delivered are something that are tangible and affects the common man. " is not clear. Is it that people will not elect the government but will only vote it out? How will a new government be constituted in your perceived set up?

Kindly elucidate.


Exactly Shri Sangom. People have voting rights only in removing a government. This will happen when the government does not perform satisfactorily. The Prime Minister and other members are selected and not elected by a professionally performed selection process.
 
Exactly Shri Sangom. People have voting rights only in removing a government. This will happen when the government does not perform satisfactorily. The Prime Minister and other members are selected and not elected by a professionally performed selection process.
Who will do this "professionally performed selection"? Who will select the selectors? Will the MPs and MLAs also selected this way? Then, we have to have a huge big bureaucracy to do this and what is the guarantee of less corruption compared to the present sys6tem? When the term ends, who will stand in this election to remain or get sacked? Will they be allowed to canvass?

If there is anybody I dislike most that would be Churchill, but he had it right when he said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

I think you are confusing between governance through representation with efficient governance through bureaucracy.

The former is about every interest of a country represented, however inefficient and/or 'stupid' one may think it is. Running trains on time, is a worthy goal, but the representative democracy is designed to REPRESENT the wishes of their constituencies. When a majority of people vote for DMK, because a TV was given to each poor household, that is democracy in action. We may not agree with the people's decision, but that's what they want. In a democracy, it is as the saying goes, the people deserve their leaders.

As opposed to any other form of government, this is the best available to us today, while preserving the dignity of every person's voice, irrespective of their knowledge level. We can not run rough shod over any citizen, just because in our opinion, they are not educated and/or mis informed. These things, over time, as the masses become more aware, educated and middle class, tend to resolve themselves.

Today, India is corrupt. But it will not be for too long. It can not be, because a more and more educated voters will vote for each one of their interest.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

I think you are confusing between governance through representation with efficient governance through bureaucracy.

The former is about every interest of a country represented, however inefficient and/or 'stupid' one may think it is. Running trains on time, is a worthy goal, but the representative democracy is designed to REPRESENT the wishes of their constituencies. When a majority of people vote for DMK, because a TV was given to each poor household, that is democracy in action. We may not agree with the people's decision, but that's what they want. In a democracy, it is as the saying goes, the people deserve their leaders.

As opposed to any other form of government, this is the best available to us today, while preserving the dignity of every person's voice, irrespective of their knowledge level. We can not run rough shod over any citizen, just because in our opinion, they are not educated and/or mis informed. These things, over time, as the masses become more aware, educated and middle class, tend to resolve themselves.

Today, India is corrupt. But it will not be for too long. It can not be, because a more and more educated voters will vote for each one of their interest.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,

From the opinions expressed in the past by Shri Sravna in this forum, I get the impression that he supports meritocracy at every level, including government. But he has not answered the crucial question of who will identify, approve and select the merited people; in turn, who will select those selectors and so on. If Shri Sravna (or someone else) explains the solution to this problem, it will be better to understand.
 
if we not hurt others be for ourself
all will calm no harm around
 
Dear Shri Nara Ji, Shri Sangom Ji and Shri KRS Ji,

There are problems with the people electing the government. Firstly, they are not knowledgeable about what sort of people will do a good job and the qualities one should look for in them. A large section of the population will remain ignorant on this aspect even if the literacy goes up. Secondly, they do not elect the representatives in an unbiased manner. Other than such biases, their choices can be influenced. To sum up, government elected by people lacks merit.

To the questions raised by Shri Nara and Shri Sangom on who will select these people of merit, it is just like the selection of bureaucracy except that the qualities tested are different. But unlike bureaucracy the government may be voted out by people if their performance is not what the people expected. People are in a much better position to do this effectively because if people do not get what they want or if their voice is not heard, then the government is deemed to be lacking in performance and have to bow down to people's decision.

There is no concept of a party. The MPs stand in their constituency and if voted out because of lack of performance get sacked. Otherwise they continue. The government as a whole also faces the people's decision. If voted out the Prime Minister and maybe his cabinet are sacked.
 
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Dear Shri Nara Ji, Shri Sangom Ji and Shri KRS Ji,

There are problems with the people electing the government. Firstly, they are not knowledgeable about what sort of people will do a good job and the qualities one should look for in them. A large section of the population will remain ignorant on this aspect even if the literacy goes up. Secondly, they do not elect the representatives in an unbiased manner. Other than such biases, their choices can be influenced. To sum up, government elected by people lacks merit.

To the questions raised by Shri Nara and Shri Sangom on who will select these people of merit, it is just like the selection of bureaucracy except that the qualities tested are different. But unlike bureaucracy the government may be voted out by people if their performance is not what the people expected. People are in a much better position to do this effectively because if people do not get what they want or if their voice is not heard, then the government is deemed to be lacking in performance and have to bow down to people's decision.

MPs are also selected this way. There is no concept of a party. The MPs stand in their constituency and if voted out because of lack of performance get sacked. Otherwise they continue. The government as a whole also faces the people's decision. If voted out the Prime Minister and maybe his cabinet are sacked.

You may well remember that Jayaprakash Narayan mooted the the proposal which would have enabled the electorate to recall elected legislators.

I feel the manner in which you have worded the title will only invite reactions, not ideas.

Firstly there need to be consensus about what are the essentials of good governance. In no functioning democracy does the elected care to carry out the mandate for which it got elected. Referendum is one method tried out in certain countries (mostly small) whether a certain proposal has a popular support or not. Otherwise it is just what the elected representative agree to do. Indo-US nuclear deal is a case in point.
In a country like India, various interest groups --be they economic or communal-- has to have a voice and a proportionate level of participation. Party based parliamentary is woefully inadequate to deal with that.
Japan, despite the inadequacies of the parliamentary system is governed better perhaps due to the culture of evolving consensus.

Rgds.
 
many things we say unique about india. the biggest uniqueness is the existence of india itself. the closest comparison is the European union, which is a loose amalgam of Christian European states.

We are a nation of million mutinies, expressed and conducted every day. somewhere in some corner of our land, there is a violent expression of dissatisfaction. Of the type that we find in current day Egypt or libya.

It is true that all is peace in tamil nadu now, but those of us who lived during the anti hindi agitation know how slender the thread attaching to india and tamil nadu was. It was bound by an overwhelming presence of non tamil speaking jawans.

parties like the dmk, gained power through legitimacy of the elections. Thanks to the size of india, the dmk is not able to change the constitution for lifetime chief ministership for MK or his family, something that Egypt, libya and north korea appear to be doing. Ofcourse we have the Nehru family, but their gaddi is not all that secure as it was evidenced 10 years ago. their star waxes and wanes.

When I was young, many relatives of mine, were admirers of the military rule in Pakistan and gen ayub khan. Because Pakistan appeared to be better run than india of that time. Look at what army ‘discipline’ has done to that country, which is now two countries. I wonder how the south asian subcontinent would have turned out, if sheikh mujibur Rahman was allowed to be the PM of the united Pakistan!

Had india tasted army rule, I am comfortable in predicting that we would have turned into another Pakistan or bangla desh. Atleast our army is still pristine enough to defend the mother land, and not use its bullets against its own citizens. On the whole, that is as kashmiris would disagree.

Churchill also said, ‘The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”. it appears we have a large number of ‘average’ voters in our community, for deep inside, we hold a resentment against the democratic india. Immediately after independence it ‘delivered’ to our community, which was progressively taken away since the 70s, to an extent that many of us feel disenfranchised.

Aristotle has said that ‘In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme.’ The fact that we feel alienated perhaps can be attributed to our successes. The poor would not attract attention or incite envy.

Every day, in our buses, streets, villages, towns, each of us, in our own, including this forum, vent our feelings and frustrations out, without fear. That is the biggest gift democratic india has given each and every citizen. If you disagree, just ask any citizen of China!!
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Don't you find Shri Sravna's proposal revolutionary and brilliant? Able persons to govern and implement but always at their best because otherwise they will be thrown out. i would add that a person once so thrown out should be debarred for life from again standing as a representative and should also lose his voting right for life. Otherwise it will be equivalent to a failure to decide who should be elected next.
 
Dear sangom,

I do find sravana’s proposal ‘revolutionary’, but ‘brilliant’? I do not know, as we tambrams tend to overuse this term. By definition, I am yet to find a tambram who is not termed ‘brilliant’ for something or the other. So along those lines, I will go along for the ‘brilliancy’ bit.

There are two aspects I would like to present: one is good governance. To me it is the same as good management. ‘management’ is a skillset, some of which can be learned, but personally I feel, some of which is intrinsic. Which is why a primary school drop out like kamaraj could do great things, while an oxford educated Nehru, along with his coterie of oxford educated economists of the planning commission, could destroy our economy. From which, 47 years after jawahar’s death, we are still trying to recover.

Sravana might have the likes of Singapore or japan in his mind. May be not. Singapore is a city state, small in population, compact, strategically situated, with an overwhelming Chinese work ethic. To me this means it is programmed for success a la hong kong or Taiwan. Japan, is the largest homogeneous society in the world, trapped in a small landmass. Thus, over centuries they have evolved into a society of public accommodation through well defined concept of hierarchical behaviour. I think, there are no leaders in japan, but only groups of well intentioned followers, all thinking along the same lines. Which is why they are great technologists, but not so great innovators like the Americans, whose society based on individuality, is an antithesis of japan.

Sravana could be thinking of china, which to us, peeking through the clouds of censorship and restrictions, appears to be a dream of a technocrat lead society. Again here, the Han Chinese are a overwhelming majority, and I personally believe, that china will eventually pay for its sins of omission re environment, private property and above all human rights. So great is the paranoia of the Chinese government, news of Egypt or libya, is simply not available to the Chinese aam aadmi.

An oft quoted management phrase, is the peter’s principle, that ‘in an hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence’. Per sravana, as I see it, we are going to hand over the administration of the country to a bunch of guys, who in their respective fields have reached ‘incompetency’. largely due to their one track minds honed by their speciality.

(I will not even go into the selection process, which can be a thread in itself). we will have a great engineer, doctor but many economists, because there are so many schools of thinking here. Same goes with psychologists, after all we need to consider the mental health of the nation too. I see our country ending up with confusion as the ‘brilliant ones’ vie with each other to run rough shod a programme, which may have nothing useful for the common man, for he is not represented in this group.

The beauty of a democracy is that there is constant feedback. Unabashed feedback. There is the concept of ‘opposition parties’ who always keep the ruling clique on its toes.

I think, we in india, need to separate the corruption from good governance. Both can exist side by side. You might remember pratap singh kairon, who single handedly brought Punjab to prosperity. He was also among the most corrupt politicians, ultimately losing his life, to cheated opponents, in Nepal, I think. Tamil nadu, has two corrupt leaders, MK & J, but both of them have the governance skills, which is why, tamil nadu, with few natural resources, paltry amount of rain has been able to move up in ranks among the prosperous states since the death of MGR. we can afford the corruption as long as there is good governance. india has hope. our politicians masters in skills of many trades. it is just that we need more of them possessing good governance skills.

Sorry for the ramble, but I hope, somewhere in this post, is the answer to your query, and to what I think of srvana’s proposal. Thank you.
 
Kunjuppu,

I doubt how many of our esteemed members will forgive you for "Tamil nadu, has two corrupt leaders, MK & J, but both of them have the governance skills, which is why, tamil nadu, with few natural resources, paltry amount of rain has been able to move up in ranks among the prosperous states since the death of MGR.", especially MK; anyway I agree with your judgment.
 
In autocratic rule or rule by Kings, the axiom was as is the King so are its people; same way, in democracy, as are the people so are their representatives. Of all the systems, democracy is least blameworthy, i.e every body can blame every body. The autocracy has failed, communism has failed, military dictatorship has failed, democracy does not fail because it has not yet succeeded. Democracy itself has many hues. The one in the US is run by dark horses of money power. Pakistan had guided democracy. Toying with democratic socialism and socialistic democracy, we have now remote-controlled democracy. Unlike in the olden days, peoples will remove any form of government once they decide to do so by ballots or otherwise, thanks to the exploding population.
 
Petty corruption aside, corruption by the rich and powerful is a common theme everywhere. In the U.S. we are very smart, we made it legal.

Here, rich people and corporations can secretly spend an unlimited amount of money in favor of any candidate they want and cash in after the election, with favorable legislation, regulation, or at least easy access, all legally. We normally don't get to see any of this in its full glory, but not very infrequently, we get a glimpse of it. A glaring example was in display last week when a prank call was made to Wisconsin Governor, Scott Walker pretending to be one of the two billionaire Koch brothers.

Another clear case of corruption that is perfectly legal is the lobbying industry. Members of congress and their staffers cash in after they leave congress with million $ salaries in exchange for influence peddling. The most egregious case in the recent past is that of Senator Dodd. He repeatedly pledged he won't go into lobbying after retirement, and sure enough he was hired by Hollywood Motion Pictures Association of America to oversee lobbyists for a cool 1.4 mil a year.

Another example is the woman staffer to North Dakota Senator Max Baucus who wrote the healthcare bill of 2009. She was an insurance company executive before becoming congressional staffer to write the bill, and now she has joined the Obama administration to oversee its implementation, making sure the interests of the insurance companies are taken care of. Soon enough, I am sure, she will leave the government to go back to her insurance company, closing the loop, a profitable loop all around. All perfectly legal.

In India these are called corruption, here we call it a day in D.C.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri Sangom and Shri Kunjuppu,

Thanks for your thoughts. What I think is, the situation is only going to get worse, with all that needs to protect the interests of corrupt politicians being institutionalized. So we would reach a stage, if that has not happened already, where these selfish and corrupt politicians gain total control and people will just have to change themselves too for the worse.

I think the combination of intelligence and corruptness is very dangerous. It does lot more harm than good at least in the long run. As long as such people are in power, a country is surely being led towards decadence.
 
U.S. president Abraham Lincoln defined democracy as:

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people."

How far is this true?

Recently 15 resolutions were passed by the U.S. Congress. The stated objective was to reduce expenditure.

But every one of them was to increase the profit of different industry groups. They will increase pollution and bring misery to people.

This is only one instance, a glaring one which shows the functioning of Democracies all over the world.

Does it make democracy is Myth? A Superstition? I would think so.
 
U.S. president Abraham Lincoln defined democracy as:

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people."

How far is this true?

Recently 15 resolutions were passed by the U.S. Congress. The stated objective was to reduce expenditure.

But every one of them was to increase the profit of different industry groups. They will increase pollution and bring misery to people.

This is only one instance, a glaring one which shows the functioning of Democracies all over the world.

Does it make democracy is Myth? A Superstition? I would think so.
Dear Shri Nacchinarkiniyan, I am puzzled by the phrase I have highlighted above. I have never seen even the worst critic of democracy say it is a superstition. So, I am guessing this is a sort of rebuke to me for having used this word in the Siddha thread. I feel it would have been much better if you had named me openly, then there would be no confusion.

I am no fan of the U.S. electoral system. It was designed by a bunch of land owning rich men, some truly progressive and many downright reactionary. They came up with a system through give and take and it shows.

Also, what we often refer to as democracy, is in fact a republic, a system in which selected or elected representatives make laws and the society runs according to those laws. There is no guarantee that these laws are perfect every time. This is why the representatives are not elected for life. They have to keep going back to the electorate and get fresh mandate. This is the way the process works.

One may criticize this system as inefficient, as prone to corruption, etc., but how is this system "superstitious"? It is real, it is there, it is making laws that all of us will have to follow, that is no myth. Not liking an outcome does not make the process superstitious.

Cheers!
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

You said "Here, rich people and corporations can secretly spend an unlimited amount of money in favor of any candidate they want and cash in after the election, with favorable legislation, regulation, or at least easy access, all legally. We normally don't get to see any of this in its full glory, but not very infrequently, we get a glimpse of it. A glaring example was in display last week when a prank call was made to Wisconsin Governor, Scott Walker pretending to be one of the two billionaire Koch brothers."


This leaves the wrong impression - Corporations and Unions are PROHIBITED from contributing to elections at the Federal level. Yes, the Corporations and Unions can spend on advertisements - but this is self regulating, at least from the Corporation's perspective, because they play in open markets and they can not afford to antagonize their customers who may not agree with their political positions.

Not so with the Unions. There is no real choice for an employee to opt out of a Union, their dues are automatically collected and used to support the party that supports the Union (Democratic party over the years). When democrats get elected, the Unions get sweet heart deals. Meritocracy is not there. For example, the teachers' union blocks firing of any teacher based on merit - in spite of a lousy teacher present in the system - as long as that teacher has seniority! If this is not corruption, I do not know what is!

Regards,
KRS
 
! If this is not corruption, I do not know what is!
Thank you for your response Shri KRS, I suppose in your own imaginary world the unions are doing great in the U.S.

Yes, in your world, the hard working Wall Street hot shots, who brought the world economy to its knees, were too big to fail and had to be bailed out with tax-payer money, by the false prophets of free-market capitalism only to see them enrich themselves with billions in bonuses, but when these greedy fat-cat union member teachers, making all the big bucks, corrupt to the core, not satisfied with one color construction paper -- don't they know we are in hard economic times, why do they want to have their construction paper in multi-colors, and Elmer's glue to boot -- what, do they think Elmer's glue grows in trees, huh, whose money they think they were spending on all those books and stuff.

Damn the unions, they brought 40- hour work week, robbing the capitalist of their profits, damn the union who robbed the factory owners of their profits for some silly life-saving work-place safety, how dare these unions organize and give voice to the ordinary workers, who do they think they are, trying to stand up for the common good-for-nothing worker against the compassionate and caring capitalist like the ones in Ladlow in Colorado. If only these union members shut up and do what they are told, all those lives wouldn't have been lost.
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

I really appreciate your idealism. But blind idealism, without taking in to account the reality is not only good, bot also is dangerous as we know from the implementation of idealistic principles of Communism which has consistently turned in to nightmares all over the globe.

Capitalism and the free market are about maximizing the return on investments and thus creating wealth for a society. Nothing to do with morality. People invest in Capitalism, because they want to take risks to get bigger returns.

It is the government's role to regulate such free markets in terms of focusing the enterprises towards the agendas of the society. Hence the equal opportunities laws, affirmative actions, environment laws and so on. A public company's overriding interest is only one thing: to maximize the share holders interest, which is to increase the value of the company in terms of it's performance, so it's value will increase in terms of the stock market, hence it's stock price. So, within this context, the stock market and the associated enterprises like the investment banking etc. pay for talents accordingly.

Why did the mortgage bubble occur, which is the cause of all the financial problems in the last couple of years? It was because of a majority of the wall street companies acting on behalf of their stock owners. When a govt. policy through quasi govt. owned companies like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, with Congressional support wanting to increase home ownership for political purposes, and GUARANTEEING such ownership, is it the responsibility of private institutions not to take advantage of that? It is like a family advertising that their daughters are available for prostitution, and later on when they get caught, accusing their clients of taking undue advantage of their daughters!

Same story with the Unions. This cry of 'small people' being taken advantage of should stop, because that is not the reality. Average salaries and benefits for a govt. union employee far exceeds of their private industry counterparts. No one is stopping the unions to bring forward work abuses - only the fianancial side bargaining is being restricted - to stop the current misuse and the corrupt practices of the unions.

I am sorry, Professor Nara Ji. Your emotional argument is not convincing.

Regards,
KRS
 
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The key words of Democracy are

By the people, For the people.

By the people meant. One man one vote. Universal Suffrage. The right of all adult citizens to vote at public elections, especially for the members of a legislative body or parliament.

The U.S democracy does not follow this principle. By introducing the process of registration of voters, they took away the right of millions of poor and suppressed people to vote.

In India entire communities were prevented from voting.

In India in most of the elections a large number do not vote. Only in last few elections have more than 50% voted. Then even if 70% vote and a person gets elected with 60% of the vote, he is in fact voted to power by only 42% of the total vote. That is the majority have not voted for him.

Now For the people:

The old saying of "What is good for General Motors is Good for the United States of America." is how the U.S democracy works. India is also slowly going toward that. The representatives in U.S do what is good for the interests they represent. Not what is good for the people.

In India the representative does what is good for his caste/community. Not for the people.

We still continue to believe that we have a democracy. This is what I would term as Superstition or Blind faith.
 
Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

I don't understand your statement about in the USA, registering to vote is required. No sir, one does not need to register. One should just prove that they live in the jurisdiction by producing a valid domicile document - a license, a bill like utility bill etc. It does not even matter in majority of states that one is a citizen - they just need to affirm that they are! I don't understand how the so called minorities are affected by this?

Regards,
KRS
 
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