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Cost of conducting funeral rites

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hi nachi sir,

I believe that no Brahmin should take up the profession of purohit and temple priest.

yes i agreed with u..........im from veda patasala student....i know many my collegues as purohits....some are temple priests too....

i escaped and became teacher/army life...its not for every veda patasala student...ONLY OPTION OTHER THAN PUROHIT....

HOTEL WORKERS/ COOKS......they cant be IT/any other decent professions.....i know pain of purohits/cooks in brahmin

community.....so what is the solution.....we can do shaving...but we cant do hair cutting by self.....in chennai

city like......i prefer like beasant nagar electric crematorium....do some minimum kriyas in rameswaram.....if possible a small

dhanam to orphanage children....its my personal opinion...i may be wrong...

Dear Shri tbs,

I agree that the brahmin purohit & brahmin temple priest was abjectly poor till one point of time. Their utter poverty on the one hand and the large number of children which these categories generally tended to have, made them rather greedy for a few more rupees or even annas in those days.

But, today the lot of both these categories has undergone sea change. We have vaadhyaars who do not even know ghanam or the procedure for cremations (and read out from books or even tablets!) earning in lakhs. There is a vast tabra population which thinks that the more you spend on vaideeka karmas, the more punyam you accumulate. Hence, at least for tabra vaadhyaars this is the golden era of their existence.

Temple priests from tabras is I think limited to privately owned temples. Here also, since most temples now permit people from all castes to visit the temples, the "plate income" (தட்டு வரவு) for the priest/s is not insignificant at all. On the contrary, I have heard of strong disputes among the main priest & his assistants about sharing of this income. Even in temples under the HRCE or Devaswom Board of Kerala, a practice has come to stay, viz., the devaswom officer looks the other way while the devotees pay for their vazhipadu, etc., directly to the priest. A share goes of course to the officer also.

Under such circumstances, our vaadhyaars insisting on huge cash payments for cremation rights is unconscionable and is pure extortion. One vaadhyaar once told that "nobody does any vaideeka karma today and calls the vaadhyaar. Only three things are there for the vaadhyaar - poonal, kalyaanam and death - even thevasam has disappeared. So, we make the maximum from these three."

There is truth in th above, but I feel our vaadhyaars should improve themselves to conduct funerals without charges at least in cases where there is no doubt that the people are poor. (In olden days, vaadhyaars usually did not take any dakshinai till sanchayanam was over and charged only for the rest of the 13 days. Very poor people could, therefore, at least ensure a vaideeki funeral for their departed relations.)
 
I think the poor TB's (BPL)would be 5-10% of the population..I think some of us could patronise these poor people...Why do you want the priest to take care of them..Are we ready to help them..I will surely do
 
I think the poor TB's (BPL)would be 5-10% of the population..I think some of us could patronise these poor people...Why do you want the priest to take care of them..Are we ready to help them..I will surely do

There are practical difficulties in individuals like you and me, coming to know of each death. Secondly, once someone is told that there is somebody willing to help, even that poor family usually wants a reasonably good order of things. At today's prices it will mean around Rs. 20,000 to Rs. 25,000 for one funeral + 13 days' rites to be somewhat well conducted. And, I am sorry to say that human nature is such that once they know that there is some source to help, even marginal cases will prefer to use this source rather than from their own resources. At the rate of Rs. 25,000 how many funerals will you be able to underwrite per year?
 
One member had compared them to Barbers. 12 years of education in a Veda Patasahala makes you the social equivalent of a barber in the eyes of a Brahmin.
The purohits and priests are treated with more respect by the non-Brahmins.

Lo! This is the level of understanding. A comparison of a barber being unreasonable and a purohit being unreasonable immediately gets transformed into a comparison of barber and brahmin and to add more effect the 12 years in veda patashala is also brought in. Let us be objective and not turn every argument into a subjective one. If a 12 year education in a veda patashala does not turn an individual into a real purohit with compassion then all the study is a waste and nothing has been learnt. A barber in a saloon gives a free haircut and shave once in a month to a brahmin lunatic in my area free. I think just an year(not 12 years) of internship in a saloon has made that barber a real human being. This is the comparison I had made in my post, not the one alluded to here.

A barber too is treated with more respect by NBs it appears from the reply from the member here.

I do not intend to enter into a detailed argument on this issue with this member any more. I would like to leave him here to have the satisfaction that he is right and I am perhaps wrong. Thanks.
 
Dear Shri tbs,

I agree that the brahmin purohit & brahmin temple priest was abjectly poor till one point of time. Their utter poverty on the one hand and the large number of children which these categories generally tended to have, made them rather greedy for a few more rupees or even annas in those days.

But, today the lot of both these categories has undergone sea change. We have vaadhyaars who do not even know ghanam or the procedure for cremations (and read out from books or even tablets!) earning in lakhs. There is a vast tabra population which thinks that the more you spend on vaideeka karmas, the more punyam you accumulate. Hence, at least for tabra vaadhyaars this is the golden era of their existence.

I wonder how many of the Purohits earn in lakhs. I wonder how many of you have visited Mylapore in the morning. The purohits congregate around Kapaleeswarar temple. You will then understand the reality of the situation. The rarity of the purohiots earning in lakhs.

Another feature which I have sen very often is that the Brahmin Community is not being able to tolerate any Purohitar doing well. I have heard snide comments abouut Purohitars having a mobile phone and going around in a scooter. These are the facilities enjoyed even by a vegetable vendor. But when a Purohitar has these the Brahmins have to pass snide remarks about these.

Frankly it has been proved time and again that the Brahmin community does not respect the Purohitars and do not want them to do well in life.

Temple priests from tabras is I think limited to privately owned temples. Here also, since most temples now permit people from all castes to visit the temples, the "plate income" (தட்டு வரவு) for the priest/s is not insignificant at all. On the contrary, I have heard of strong disputes among the main priest & his assistants about sharing of this income. Even in temples under the HRCE or Devaswom Board of Kerala, a practice has come to stay, viz., the devaswom officer looks the other way while the devotees pay for their vazhipadu, etc., directly to the priest. A share goes of course to the officer also.

So you do not consider the Gurukkal Community to be Brahmins at all. What about the Battacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins? There are temples like Sankarankovil where the Smarthas officiate.

There are a number of temples in Tamil Nadu which have hardly any devotee visiting it. I wonder how many people are visiting the Pundarikakshan temple In Thriuccherai or the Siva temple at Mazharpadi?

BTW what is the latest monthly salary paid by the denaswom for a junior maelsanthi. The Junior gets nothing in thattu.

In Tamil Nasu the temple priest is ranked below the sweeper.

But the cause of this state of affairs is not the Dravidian administration. But the Brahmin community. Even when they were in charge they paid the temple priests a pittance. The community held the temple priests in contempt. treated them like -----

Under such circumstances, our vaadhyaars insisting on huge cash payments for cremation rights is unconscionable and is pure extortion. One vaadhyaar once told that "nobody does any vaideeka karma today and calls the vaadhyaar. Only three things are there for the vaadhyaar - poonal, kalyaanam and death - even thevasam has disappeared. So, we make the maximum from these three."

There is truth in th above, but I feel our vaadhyaars should improve themselves to conduct funerals without charges at least in cases where there is no doubt that the people are poor. (In olden days, vaadhyaars usually did not take any dakshinai till sanchayanam was over and charged only for the rest of the 13 days. Very poor people could, therefore, at least ensure a vaideeki funeral for their departed relations.)

You are saying that all of them are rich and their demand is unconscionable and is pure extortion. I only wish that you were true. Our Sasthirigal in Chennai was working in a bank in addition to Purohitam. But he ensured that his children were properly educated. Two of them are in U.S and he shuttles berween India and U.S.

He did the right thing. As a purohithar you are treated like ---. The community wants you to be poor and starve. But they will not help you. Anything which is reasonable is considered exhortion. They would like to pay you Re. 1 for Tharpanam. They will give you Dakshina which would be less than the auto fare from their house to the temple. You are treated a social ----

But then You are supposed to learn evrything and do everything as per the scriptures.

Good yajamanas get good Purohitas. Bad yajamanas get bad purohitas. The present day Yajamanas do not deserve any Purohitas.

The day is not far when you can not get one for love or money. It is time to put an end to this expoitation. Even today many of the smaller cities in Tamil Nadu do not have any Purohitas.

We will still have temple priests becaue these Brahmins are devoted to temple GODs. Thy donot beieve in the maxim காசேதான் கடவுளடா
 


There are practical difficulties in individuals like you and me, coming to know of each death. Secondly, once someone is told that there is somebody willing to help, even that poor family usually wants a reasonably good order of things. At today's prices it will mean around Rs. 20,000 to Rs. 25,000 for one funeral + 13 days' rites to be somewhat well conducted. And, I am sorry to say that human nature is such that once they know that there is some source to help, even marginal cases will prefer to use this source rather than from their own resources. At the rate of Rs. 25,000 how many funerals will you be able to underwrite per year?


Yes, I fully agree with this post, Once you make anyone a charity case, it is difficult to wean them. It is impractical to support every poor in any community.
 
Dear Shri iniyan,

I find that you have an emotional bias in favour of purohitars and temple priests. That will make an objective discussion, impossible. That apart, it seems you are contradicting yourself in some points.

I wonder how many of the Purohits earn in lakhs. I wonder how many of you have visited Mylapore in the morning. The purohits congregate around Kapaleeswarar temple. You will then understand the reality of the situation. The rarity of the purohiots earning in lakhs.

When I say 'purohitar', I mean a person who has qualified himself by study in vedapatasala and subsequent internship of some experienced vaadhyaar, and is thus well-conversant with all the religious rites and poojas etc. Such vaadhyaars are very few (at least in these parts) and so almost all of them earn quite well as is generally seen by their life style (own houses, car/scooter, children mostly in IT or banking jobs and so on).

Apart from these, there exists another group of so-called vaideeka braahmanans - usually old men/senior citizens. Some of this group do not even know 'tathaastu' and where to utter that word. But these are also an integral and, perhaps, equally crucial factor of our vaideeki rites. But even here, what I find in Trivandrum (and in cities like Kochi - as per reports from people) is that many of these people will usually be found in dirty clothes, unkempt, and so on which gives the look of a poor person whereas, in reality, they are comfortably provided otherwise, but have found this to be a good and effortless way of earning some more and thus enrich their lives.

For example, one person has only daughter who is in IT, living abroad and has married an Ezhava but she has purchased a street house for her father and regularly remits money. But he (the father) also earns quite well as a vaideeka braahmanan.

Another man happens to be my school mate. His three sons are well-educated (thanks to his working as virtual sole manager of his elder brother's coffee powder store) and employed in banks/GOI. He can stay with any of his sons AFAIK but since he gets enough income as vaideeka braahmanan, he continues to live in his own old street house.

Yet another is a retired railway employee. He has by now learned "bhagavathi sevai" and assists the Namboodiri/Potti priests of repute in this line and gets a good income, besides his railway pension and other (free travel) facilities. I can give the position of many others also.

These people have an employment centre and every evening one will find a crowd of decrepit people crowding in that place in order to know whether they have any assignment on the next day and if so where, who is the main vaadhyaar, what function it is, etc. May be what you see in Mylapore is similar to this, I do not know, but I am guessing.

Yes, there may be a few people who are poorer than these. But the condition of even such people is not badly off, considering that they have little knowledge of mantras and this is a job with mnimum physical exertion.

In the interior places in Travancore, vaadhyaars are simply NA and the brahmana samoohams are prepared to compensate anyone willing to reside in the center and give his services, very generously, as seen from some advertisements appearing in the magazine of the KBA.

Another feature which I have sen very often is that the Brahmin Community is not being able to tolerate any Purohitar doing well. I have heard snide comments abouut Purohitars having a mobile phone and going around in a scooter. These are the facilities enjoyed even by a vegetable vendor. But when a Purohitar has these the Brahmins have to pass snide remarks about these.

Frankly it has been proved time and again that the Brahmin community does not respect the Purohitars and do not want them to do well in life.

To an extent I agree with you. My analysis is that the tabras only worship money and pavishu - these two are their main gods. So, if a vaadhyaar has his son as an IT executive and lives with his son in a palatial house etc., that vaadhyaar is comparatively more respected. At the other end, even very well-off vaadhyaars even today insist on a cut-back from the vaideeka braahmanan, described above, because the vaadhyaars themselves speak very disparagingly about these vaideeka braahmanans, who, in turn, let out all the unsavoury secrets of the vaadhyaars and their greed, miserliness, how they cheat you in regard to various daanams, and so on.

Thus, to a large extent, it is this vaideeki group itself which digs its own grave, so to say.

So you do not consider the Gurukkal Community to be Brahmins at all. What about the Battacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins? There are temples like Sankarankovil where the Smarthas officiate.

Yes, I am considering tabras only, for the present. The priests at Sankarankovil earn well outside of their salary; I know this from reliable sources in TLY.

There are a number of temples in Tamil Nadu which have hardly any devotee visiting it. I wonder how many people are visiting the Pundarikakshan temple In Thriuccherai or the Siva temple at Mazharpadi?

There may be such temples but unless we have reliable info about the priests, their economic condition, etc., it is not worthwhile to pre-guess that there must be one or more impoverished priest/s attached to each such temple.

BTW what is the latest monthly salary paid by the denaswom for a junior maelsanthi. The Junior gets nothing in thattu.

It is like a junior clerk. Here the junior melshanthis have to be given their share as otherwise they will see that the senior melshanti is fumigated out of service. As I explained, it is a grand coalition of the senior melshanti, his juniors, the devaswom officer i/c of the temple and even the devaswom employees, including, possibly the sweeper!

In Tamil Nasu the temple priest is ranked below the sweeper.

But the cause of this state of affairs is not the Dravidian administration. But the Brahmin community. Even when they were in charge they paid the temple priests a pittance. The community held the temple priests in contempt. treated them like -----
No somments. But temples have been sources for many to squeeze money, lands, etc., for their personal aggrandisement, from time immemmorial, probably. That practice continues even now.

You are saying that all of them are rich and their demand is unconscionable and is pure extortion. I only wish that you were true. Our Sasthirigal in Chennai was working in a bank in addition to Purohitam. But he ensured that his children were properly educated. Two of them are in U.S and he shuttles berween India and U.S.

He did the right thing. As a purohithar you are treated like ---. The community wants you to be poor and starve. But they will not help you. Anything which is reasonable is considered exhortion. They would like to pay you Re. 1 for Tharpanam. They will give you Dakshina which would be less than the auto fare from their house to the temple. You are treated a social ----

But then You are supposed to learn evrything and do everything as per the scriptures.

Good yajamanas get good Purohitas. Bad yajamanas get bad purohitas. The present day Yajamanas do not deserve any Purohitas.

The day is not far when you can not get one for love or money. It is time to put an end to this expoitation. Even today many of the smaller cities in Tamil Nadu do not have any Purohitas.

I agree that today's tabras get purohits who they deserve. As to your remarks about the past, do you think anyone will even agree that the tabras behaved in such nasty manner towards their own purohits? I doubt, because the efforts here are to paint as rosy a picture about ourselves as possible.

We will still have temple priests becaue these Brahmins are devoted to temple GODs. Thy donot beieve in the maxim காசேதான் கடவுளடா
I very much doubt this; temple priests stick even today because they find it profitable, somehow, to throwing it away. It is very very rare that a temple priest looks at the idol as anything more than a mere piece of stone with which he is able to fool many so-called bhaktas and make a living, if possible.
 
I have read with interest the interactions between members sangom and nachinarkiniyan on temple priests and purohitas.
As there are good and badly paid engineers ,and it professionels ,this community has also worldly wise priests with good commercial sense and others in abject poverty.who are in small towns and committed to the profession .
in my city the temple priests are given monthly salaries and accomodation . they also collect plate money from visitors to the temple.
funerals and marriage means big money .Iyengar vadhyars are very small in numbers and command hefty premium as compared to iyer ones.
they also pick and choose their assignments based on their commercial value and quit halfway during a ceremony leaving it to an ignorant assistant and skip half the mantras depending on the situation and our ignorance level . . During the marriage season my sambandhi had to pay a very hefty amount to engage a vadhyar from his community and did advance booking several months before the event. my vadhyar vanished halfway telling me that the balance will be taken care of by my sambandhis vadhyar . wonderful subcontract by one vadhyar to another.
 
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I wonder how many of the Purohits earn in lakhs. I wonder how many of you have visited Mylapore in the morning. The purohits congregate around Kapaleeswarar temple. You will then understand the reality of the situation. The rarity of the purohiots earning in lakhs.

Another feature which I have sen very often is that the Brahmin Community is not being able to tolerate any Purohitar doing well. I have heard snide comments abouut Purohitars having a mobile phone and going around in a scooter. These are the facilities enjoyed even by a vegetable vendor. But when a Purohitar has these the Brahmins have to pass snide remarks about these.

Frankly it has been proved time and again that the Brahmin community does not respect the Purohitars and do not want them to do well in life.



So you do not consider the Gurukkal Community to be Brahmins at all. What about the Battacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins? There are temples like Sankarankovil where the Smarthas officiate.

There are a number of temples in Tamil Nadu which have hardly any devotee visiting it. I wonder how many people are visiting the Pundarikakshan temple In Thriuccherai or the Siva temple at Mazharpadi?

BTW what is the latest monthly salary paid by the denaswom for a junior maelsanthi. The Junior gets nothing in thattu.

In Tamil Nasu the temple priest is ranked below the sweeper.

But the cause of this state of affairs is not the Dravidian administration. But the Brahmin community. Even when they were in charge they paid the temple priests a pittance. The community held the temple priests in contempt. treated them like -----



You are saying that all of them are rich and their demand is unconscionable and is pure extortion. I only wish that you were true. Our Sasthirigal in Chennai was working in a bank in addition to Purohitam. But he ensured that his children were properly educated. Two of them are in U.S and he shuttles berween India and U.S.

He did the right thing. As a purohithar you are treated like ---. The community wants you to be poor and starve. But they will not help you. Anything which is reasonable is considered exhortion. They would like to pay you Re. 1 for Tharpanam. They will give you Dakshina which would be less than the auto fare from their house to the temple. You are treated a social ----

But then You are supposed to learn evrything and do everything as per the scriptures.

Good yajamanas get good Purohitas. Bad yajamanas get bad purohitas. The present day Yajamanas do not deserve any Purohitas.

The day is not far when you can not get one for love or money. It is time to put an end to this expoitation. Even today many of the smaller cities in Tamil Nadu do not have any Purohitas.

We will still have temple priests becaue these Brahmins are devoted to temple GODs. Thy donot beieve in the maxim காசேதான் கடவுளடா

Dear Sangom,

Though the member here has taken an extreme stand, I agree with some of his arguments here. The purohits are not well paid. Whatever is paid is paid grudgingly. The purohits do not know the prayogams very thoroughly. They refer to a kindle or a tablet so that they do not miss a point. But many of them do their nitya karrma regularly. They are sincere. However they are a creature of their circumstances. So they know less of their duties. When I was living in Kottayam there used to be purohit who used to get a liberal dakshinai from rich people in that place and take just one rupee from those who can not pay. He used to maintain a meticulous diary and used to go to the house of people one day ahead remind them about the sraddham etc., When I lived in Ahmedabad I had a smartha purohit(vaishnavites being a very small community there were no vaishnavite purohits there) who used to offer his services for conducting sradhdham in my house. He was supported by the Kanchi matom with a regular salary and that helped him maintain his family in that city decently. What he earned from the small TB community there was the extra that helped him buy the few luxuries he enjoyed. The less said about the archakas in village temples the better it will be. They are a completely neglected lot. They are not like the archakas in the temples of the cities and towns. I know a temple where the archaka even this day is paid a paltry 3 kottai (கோட்டை) paddy and three pucca (பக்கா) gingelly oil per year as compensation for his services. The paddy never reaches him fully because the lands have been gobbled up by the politicians and HR&CE pays only if there is a crop. Invariably in a year out of two crops one crop somehow reportedly "failed" in this village. The archaka's son studied well and is in US. But the archaka will not leave the temple and go to live with his son or daughter in a town. For him it is an unbreakable bond between him and his Krishna in the village Temple. Even on the days on which he falls sick with fever, he takes bath in the irrigation tank and attends to his duties because he can not get any one else to come and do the service (shutting down the temple is blasphemy for him). There is a general paucity of people to do archaka's job. Your post gives a wrong impression that the purohits and archakas are like the pandas of Benares, well paid and well fed ruffians. That is not the case. That is the point I want to make.
 
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Dear Sangom,

Though the member here has taken an extreme stand, I agree with some of his arguments here. The purohits are not well paid. Whatever is paid is paid grudgingly. The purohits do not know the prayogams very thoroughly. They refer to a kindle or a tablet so that they do not miss a point. But many of them do their nitya karrma regularly. They are sincere. However they are a creature of their circumstances. So they know less of their duties. When I was living in Kottayam there used to be purohit who used to get a liberal dakshinai from rich people in that place and take just one rupee from those who can not pay. He used to maintain a meticulous diary and used to go to the house of people one day ahead remind them about the sraddham etc., When I lived in Ahmedabad I had a smartha purohit(vaishnavites being a very small community there were no vaishnavite purohits there) who used to offer his services for conducting sradhdham in my house. He was supported by the Kanchi matom with a regular salary and that helped him maintain his family in that city decently. What he earned from the small TB community there was the extra that helped him buy the few luxuries he enjoyed. The less said about the archakas in village temples the better it will be. They are a completely neglected lot. They are not like the archakas in the temples of the cities and towns. I know a temple where the archaka even this day is paid a paltry 3 kottai (கோட்டை) paddy and three pucca (பக்கா) gingelly oil per year as compensation for his services. The paddy never reaches him fully because the lands have been gobbled up by the politicians and HR&CE pays only if there is a crop. Invariably in a year out of two crops one crop somehow reportedly "failed" in this village. The archaka's son studied well and is in US. But the archaka will not leave the temple and go to live with his son or daughter in a town. For him it is an unbreakable bond between him and his Krishna in the village Temple. Even on the days on which he falls sick with fever, he takes bath in the irrigation tank and attends to his duties because he can not get any one else to come and do the service (shutting down the temple is blasphemy for him). There is a general paucity of people to do archaka's job. Your post gives a wrong impression that the purohits and archakas are like the pandas of Benares, well paid and well fed ruffians. That is not the case. That is the point I want to make.



The entire post is cent percent correct .Every Brahmin or any caste who has faith in God should encourage the poor archakas in their native village,at least to continue their tradition without break by offering their might however small it may be..
 
Dear Sangom,

Though the member here has taken an extreme stand, I agree with some of his arguments here. The purohits are not well paid. Whatever is paid is paid grudgingly. The purohits do not know the prayogams very thoroughly. They refer to a kindle or a tablet so that they do not miss a point. But many of them do their nitya karrma regularly. They are sincere. However they are a creature of their circumstances. So they know less of their duties. When I was living in Kottayam there used to be purohit who used to get a liberal dakshinai from rich people in that place and take just one rupee from those who can not pay. He used to maintain a meticulous diary and used to go to the house of people one day ahead remind them about the sraddham etc., When I lived in Ahmedabad I had a smartha purohit(vaishnavites being a very small community there were no vaishnavite purohits there) who used to offer his services for conducting sradhdham in my house. He was supported by the Kanchi matom with a regular salary and that helped him maintain his family in that city decently. What he earned from the small TB community there was the extra that helped him buy the few luxuries he enjoyed. The less said about the archakas in village temples the better it will be. They are a completely neglected lot. They are not like the archakas in the temples of the cities and towns. I know a temple where the archaka even this day is paid a paltry 3 kottai (கோட்டை) paddy and three pucca (பக்கா) gingelly oil per year as compensation for his services. The paddy never reaches him fully because the lands have been gobbled up by the politicians and HR&CE pays only if there is a crop. Invariably in a year out of two crops one crop somehow reportedly "failed" in this village. The archaka's son studied well and is in US. But the archaka will not leave the temple and go to live with his son or daughter in a town. For him it is an unbreakable bond between him and his Krishna in the village Temple. Even on the days on which he falls sick with fever, he takes bath in the irrigation tank and attends to his duties because he can not get any one else to come and do the service (shutting down the temple is blasphemy for him). There is a general paucity of people to do archaka's job. Your post gives a wrong impression that the purohits and archakas are like the pandas of Benares, well paid and well fed ruffians. That is not the case. That is the point I want to make.

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

I think we have both the well-off and even affluent vaadhyaars as also some who are not so lucky. Same holds good for archakas too, I will say. But I do not sincerely think that the underpaid (or unpaid) archakas still stick to their work in the temple because of an emotional (or bhakti-induced) bond with the deity, in every case. While there may be (and will be) cases like the one you describe, I know a few cases of tabra temple priests who work in remote rural temples for which the devotees are only NBs including the Ezhavas, but they admit that the "plate income" is quite attractive; but this admission will not be to everyone and these people - like the vaideekabraahmanans I referred to - find it profitable to put on the appearance of the deprived. (Sometimes you will find these people as servers in marriage halls also and there they are very much in demand since brahmin meals servers are a rare commodity today.

All in all, I agree with you that there are people who are financially very backward, among the archakas as also purohit-assistants. But then is that not so with every community? I do agree that the genuinely poor sections should be assisted or helped. But this thread was about purohit charging exorbitantly for cremation; I generally do not find the kovil archakas/vaideekabraahmanans coming forward to do this and it is only the established vaadhyaars who will officiate in such matters. These vaadhyaars are comparatively the affluent sections of the priestly groups today.
 
Dear Shri iniyan,.
So you do not consider the Gurukkal Community to be Brahmins at all. What about the Battacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins? There are temples like Sankarankovil where the Smarthas officiate.


Yes, I am considering tabras only, for the present. The priests at Sankarankovil earn well outside of their salary; I know this from reliable sources in TLY.


I am shocked by your comment to say the least. I do not think the members of this group would agree that Kurukkal, Bhattacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins are not Tamil Brahmins. You seem to consider only the Kerala Barahmins as Tamil Brahmins. You always talk about Ezhavas and what is happening in Kerala.


The vast majoriy of the Tamil Brahmins are in Tamil Nadu.


I do not think you have any idea of how the kurukkal have carried on the thousands of years old Saiva Siddhanta tradition. The temple in mazharpadi has no relevance to you. But for Tamilians it is the place about which Sundarar sang.


பொன்னார் மேனியனே புலித்தோலை அரைக்கசைத்து
மின்னார் செஞ்சடைமேல் மிளிர்கொன்றை யணிந்தவனே
மன்னே மாமணியே மழபாடியுள் மாணிக்கமே
அன்னே உன்னையல்லால் இனியாரை நினைக்கேனே


It is clear you think only Vaideeka Brahmins from Kerala are Brahmins. May be you have the support of many members.


Since we do not even agree to who the Tamil Brahmins are, there is no question of a meaningful dialogue. Your remarks abut the Kurukkal goes against something which I have been fighting for since I joined this group


Unity among Brahmins.
 
I am shocked by your comment to say the least. I do not think the members of this group would agree that Kurukkal, Bhattacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins are not Tamil Brahmins. You seem to consider only the Kerala Barahmins as Tamil Brahmins. You always talk about Ezhavas and what is happening in Kerala.


The vast majoriy of the Tamil Brahmins are in Tamil Nadu.


I do not think you have any idea of how the kurukkal have carried on the thousands of years old Saiva Siddhanta tradition. The temple in mazharpadi has no relevance to you. But for Tamilians it is the place about which Sundarar sang.


பொன்னார் மேனியனே புலித்தோலை அரைக்கசைத்து
மின்னார் செஞ்சடைமேல் மிளிர்கொன்றை யணிந்தவனே
மன்னே மாமணியே மழபாடியுள் மாணிக்கமே
அன்னே உன்னையல்லால் இனியாரை நினைக்கேனே


It is clear you think only Vaideeka Brahmins from Kerala are Brahmins. May be you have the support of many members.


Since we do not even agree to who the Tamil Brahmins are, there is no question of a meaningful dialogue. Your remarks abut the Kurukkal goes against something which I have been fighting for since I joined this group


Unity among Brahmins.
hi sir,

i agreed with u...see the situation in childambaram...ONLY DIKSHITHARS ARE FIGHTING THE CASE......even many brahmanas dont

know the reality of chidambaram temple ..its pity...nice words....Unity among Brahmins. thanks sir...

 
I am shocked by your comment to say the least. I do not think the members of this group would agree that Kurukkal, Bhattacharyas and Vaikasana Brahmins are not Tamil Brahmins. You seem to consider only the Kerala Barahmins as Tamil Brahmins. You always talk about Ezhavas and what is happening in Kerala.


The vast majoriy of the Tamil Brahmins are in Tamil Nadu.


I do not think you have any idea of how the kurukkal have carried on the thousands of years old Saiva Siddhanta tradition. The temple in mazharpadi has no relevance to you. But for Tamilians it is the place about which Sundarar sang.


பொன்னார் மேனியனே புலித்தோலை அரைக்கசைத்து
மின்னார் செஞ்சடைமேல் மிளிர்கொன்றை யணிந்தவனே
மன்னே மாமணியே மழபாடியுள் மாணிக்கமே
அன்னே உன்னையல்லால் இனியாரை நினைக்கேனே


It is clear you think only Vaideeka Brahmins from Kerala are Brahmins. May be you have the support of many members.


Since we do not even agree to who the Tamil Brahmins are, there is no question of a meaningful dialogue. Your remarks abut the Kurukkal goes against something which I have been fighting for since I joined this group


Unity among Brahmins.

Dear Shri iniyan,

I did not say that Gurukkal are not brahmins or that I do not consider them so. But you will agree with me that Kurukkal group and those who are commonly known today as tabras do not even have intermarriage as a common thing among the two categories. I know for a fact that the tabras consisting importantly of vadama, brahaccharanam, ashtasahasram and a few more sub-castes do not like to intermarry with either the kurukkal group or the Chidambaram Dikshitar group. Perhaps a few alliances might have happened in recent years but those will be the exceptions.

As regards Vaikhanasa brahmins (or, are you talking about a different group vaikasana? if so, I am unaware of such a group) I am under the impression they form part of the vaishnavites (Iyengars) and that they are just like the whole Iyengar category— i.e., consist of very rich to poor people. If this is not so, please let me know.

Apart from places like this web forum, how much of unity is there among vaishnavites, smarthas, kurukkals, vaikhanasas, the panchratras, etc? Do the religious heads of these sects/denominations feel unity among themselves? Are they prepared to form a united brahmin religious HQ to be managed by persons representing each one of those?

Shri tbs refers to Chidambaram Dikshitars; are they prepared to intermarry with the mainstream tabras?

MazhapaaDi is known to me also. I understand that many of the temples sung by the saivite saints are in decrepit condition. But I thought that all these temples are owned and managed by one or the other of the 18 Saiva Adheenams of TN. If this is true, then is it not better that the sorry plight of the Kurukkals is taken up with those Adheenams?

To sum up, I am not against any category being considered as an integral part of the umbrella term "Brahmin" or "Tamil Brahmin". But that should be first realized in the actual world outside and not merely theoretically within this forum alone.

I talk about Kerala tabras because I have very good feedback about them. My mention about Ezhava is only incidental and I do not mean, even by any stretch of imagination, that Ezhavas form part of brahmins!

Hope I have clarified my position.
 
....Unity among Brahmins.
To state the obvious, this is more elusive than a horn on a horse's head ... but, even if it is achievable, such a goal is casteist. Why not aspire for a more worthy goal, like say unity among Tamils, unity among Indians, or better still, unity among all ...??
 
Most of us are individuals with huge egos. It is difficult to get unity. We want unity to fulfill our goals and then go our separate ways. This is particularly true among Tamil group.

In my town the temple was started with a broad coalition of Hindu nri's representing all states of India. The unity among the people from Andhra is so strong and their work ethics is go good that now they control operation and management of the Temple. Population wise The Tamils are 300 families, Andhra about 500 families. Also the people from Andhra are more religious and little bit more genorous.
It is good to see an organization running smoothly for the community.
 
Most of us are individuals with huge egos. It is difficult to get unity. We want unity to fulfill our goals and then go our separate ways. This is particularly true among Tamil group.

In my town the temple was started with a broad coalition of Hindu nri's representing all states of India. The unity among the people from Andhra is so strong and their work ethics is go good that now they control operation and management of the Temple. Population wise The Tamils are 300 families, Andhra about 500 families. Also the people from Andhra are more religious and little bit more genorous.
It is good to see an organization running smoothly for the community.

same thing goes for the original hindu temple of toronto.

in 1983 we tambrams started it with a small shed and it remained a shed for 8 years. till the sri lankans started coming in large numbers. they attended the temple so often and in so many numbers, that it had to be kept open 7 days daytime. they literally had skills of masons electricians workers and built it with their own hand.

today they are the majority users and now form majority of the management. the tambrams bad mouth the sri lankans, initially because of ltte, and now because of jealousy. i go there. many tambram go to the new sringeri sponsored temple built by a person of dubious track record during the dot com bust. so they say. but it is of pure brahmins.

the younger generation dont care. they simply dont go to the temples.
 
This thread made me think of my own impending mortality, even though it is presently highly exaggerated. Pardon me for sounding kind of macabre, I hope my dead body is disposed off in the most environmentally friendly way. May be covered in a clean sheet and deposited in the ground -- fodder for the maggots, and then go home and have a party. Parsis have a good system, recycle the body I say, some good out of a measly life.

My dear and near ones can remember me whenever the thought occurs, no need for any annual ritual. That is what I would like to happen when I am no more ......
 
This thread made me think of my own impending mortality, even though it is presently highly exaggerated. Pardon me for sounding kind of macabre, I hope my dead body is disposed off in the most environmentally friendly way. May be covered in a clean sheet and deposited in the ground -- fodder for the maggots, and then go home and have a party. Parsis have a good system, recycle the body I say, some good out of a measly life.

My dear and near ones can remember me whenever the thought occurs, no need for any annual ritual. That is what I would like to happen when I am no more ......

Nara ji I do not like that a discussion on priests has depressed you to the extent of thinking of the inevitable end to life early in the morning5.39am as per post. I request the moderater to close this thread which generates so many negative feelings among members
 
Nara ji I do not like that a discussion on priests has depressed you to the extent of thinking of the inevitable end to life early in the morning5.39am as per post. I request the moderater to close this thread which generates so many negative feelings among members

Nara is in US ...So it is not early morning ..It will be evening time, may be after the supper depending on the time zone that he is in..

Nara getting depressed..No chance..

Shall await the next post from him with a googly!

Sorry Nara..I replied on your behalf!
 
Most of us are individuals with huge egos. It is difficult to get unity. We want unity to fulfill our goals and then go our separate ways. This is particularly true among Tamil group.

In my town the temple was started with a broad coalition of Hindu nri's representing all states of India. The unity among the people from Andhra is so strong and their work ethics is go good that now they control operation and management of the Temple. Population wise The Tamils are 300 families, Andhra about 500 families. Also the people from Andhra are more religious and little bit more genorous.
It is good to see an organization running smoothly for the community.
hi

now a days...many hindu temples in US run by telugu community....more religious and generous in donations.....we tambrams

more ego/jealousy.....i think after guju community....telugu will lead more majority.....
 
1. All vaidika "karyams" are important and must be done by the brahmin community with the facilities and resources available in the place of living - individual purohits, mutams, samajams or eresorces. I do the srardhams in raghavendra mutt because this option is easily available to me. On any day forty to sixty people will be doing the ceremony; there are all sections of brahmins - madvas, north indian, saivites and vaishnavites. The dakshina given too varies from ten to hundred. Since the basics are common, variation in details are not a distraction and one gets full satisfaction of doing srardham in the vaidika way.

2. As with any professionals we employ, the purohit must also leave as a satisfied man. We know the cost of living, seasonal earning, cost per hour, skill based remuneration and all such parameters, and pay accordingly. We must help this profession with maximum support - financial and respect.

3. Let us hope the well placed purohits help others by forming a network, distributing assignments and some discipline. Some do.

All this is meaningful only when we brahmanas do all the samskarams and karmas with interest, devotion and 'druda chiththam'. There are multiple solutions and each of us can follow at least one.
 
Dear Sangom, your post #36:

I know a few cases of tabra temple priests who work in remote rural temples for which the devotees are only NBs including the Ezhavas, but they admit that the "plate income" is quite attractive; but this admission will not be to everyone and these people - like the vaideekabraahmanans I referred to - find it profitable to put on the appearance of the deprived.

Did you think about this angle? Whenever I go any temple I make it a point to make my offerings only to the archakar and not in the hundi kept there. This is because the money collected in the hundi goes to feed the Thomases and khaders also of the HR&CE Department even though they have their own benefactors to donate money to them. This is the stand taken by many bhaktas visiting temple in TN these days. This may be the reason the "plate income" is increasing these days.
 
'Sraaddham' is required to be done by one who believes in sraaddham which is enjoined by the scriptures. The scriptures roundly and clearly prohibit the performance of sraaddham in the house of even the daughter of the dead person, let alone matams or public places. The scriptures say, that such sraaddham will go to satisfy the many evil forces lurking (in the universe) and will leave one's pitrus starved and will thus cause pitru saapam. The only place - other than one's own place of living, in which scriptures permit sraaddham to be performed properly, is the house of a sapinda of the deceased/performer.

Now, people who claim to be very orthodox twist the rules of the scriptures, do whatever they feel is correct and then go on bad-mouthing others, in and out of context. Either they are rank hypocrites who do not at all believe in the scriptures but are cleverly tricking the world, or else, they are systemmatically inviting pitru saapam for their future generations. Rameshwaram and thila homam should save, even in that case!
 
Dear Sangom, your post #36:



Did you think about this angle? Whenever I go any temple I make it a point to make my offerings only to the archakar and not in the hundi kept there. This is because the money collected in the hundi goes to feed the Thomases and khaders also of the HR&CE Department even though they have their own benefactors to donate money to them. This is the stand taken by many bhaktas visiting temple in TN these days. This may be the reason the "plate income" is increasing these days.


Sir,

What I was trying to point out was that —

1. Even predominantly NB communities offer plate money to the brahmin purohit.

2. But the brahmin purohit, for his own reasons, underplays and prefers to put on the garb of an impoverished person; his family also imitates this to some extent.

One particular purohit lends money on daily interest basis (called வட்டப் பணம் in Malayalam) to the small traders and self-employed persons and earns well.
 
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