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Corruption is a great social leveller !

Corruption is a great social leveller !


Relax calm down people..lets analyse this in detail,


In our country we have over 800 mil in dire poverty as per world bank ( okay make it 600 mil, let's not fight over nos.), with people struggling for 2 meals a day and proper nutrition. Forget the other basics like housing and toilets and education etc..


This is morally and ethically indefensible and there can be absolutely NO arguments that our only priority is to uplift them immediately. Not tomorrow, not day after, but today !!!!!


Given this what should a poor guy coming from a village or town do for living with out any education.


Before the phony outrage on corruption, this guy used to go to cricket Stadiums and buy tickets and then sell them to other people at higher rates. Similarly they have no choice but to become middle men and agents with various govt and private agencies. This used to feed him and his family.


Not all are born or made entrepreneurs...so we need to enable and provide jobs in the informal sector as much as possible,


Real estate brokers, govt agency middle men... All made huge money and ensured their family escaped the curse of poverty.


Also people who make a lot of ill gotten money ( I am no longer going to use the word black money... Only I'll gotten wealth. I am now formally an anti-White, anti-trump...racist to the racists guys - discussion for another day), spend much more than others.


So these guys with ill gotten wealth hire more house hold workers, more drivers, spend heavily on weddings etc..which spreads the wealth specifically to the poor. If the auto driver cheats or asks more, it is okay, pay more and help his family. .


People with ill gotten wealth also become entrepreneurs as they can afford to lose this money without worry or losing sleep. This further provides employment to our poor.


So we as a county need to leverage corruption and help mass uplift our poor rather than fighting it on some useless ideological grounds. Uplifting our poor should be our only immediate priority and not endless debates on morality while our poor die needlessly everyday.


In this regard, let's look at the Chinese govt, they used any and all means to uplift the 1 billion people, including stealing copyrights, blue prints, corruption, etc.. They backed their companies fully with govt money and enabled them to trade overseas, pick contracts, setup mfg centres in China, which provided jobs for 100s of millions Chinese people. Chinese companies used corruption with tacit govt support, to get contracts from all over the world and scaled into multi billion $$ companies today. So we need to copy and leverage their ideas.


(On a side note, I am totally opposed to the trade war by USA and hope this trump thug is impeached and thrown out asap. )


Unfortunaty, things have become worse for our people due to the ill conceived and messy implementation of demonetisation and gst. Both these policies have pushed 100s of millions back to dire poverty.


Given this, we as people need to do our part and do it now not in some distant future,


So folks please use autos more, use middle men, hire more house hold workers and drivers, buy tickets by paying double or more. As long as it helps our poor,there is and can be - no moral conflicts on this or bad karma.


Spread the wealth by any and all means necessary to help our people, folks, they are really really hurting now.


So Corruption is undoubtedly a great social leveller and it spreads wealth to our poor better than any govt policies as it is stymied by the terrible bureaucracy. This is also a great global leveller and provides a fair playing field against the well entrenched white countries like how China did in the last 30 yrs.
 
Can't think of any post cleverer than the above post. Because it pre-empts any debate or questioning the OP as that could be taken to mean one is against lifting people out of poverty. Lol!

Jaykay said:
Before the phony outrage of corruption...

Jaykay can enlighten us when he thinks this phony outrage started. When India got independence? When the previous UPA govt got overthrown?
 
OP
OP
J
கால பைரவன்;411296 said:
Can't think of any post cleverer than the above post. Because it pre-empts any debate or questioning the OP as that could be taken to mean one is against lifting people out of poverty. Lol!



Jaykay can enlighten us when he thinks this phony outrage started. When India got independence? When the previous UPA govt got overthrown?


LOL ! I didn't want people to keep responding with obvious 1 liners saying corruption is bad..

On the phony outrage on corruption - All political parties cutting across the entire spectrum are guilty of phony outrage.. Every govt is formed saying we will fight corruption and then it is business as usual, nothing ever changes and nothing gets delivered to poor. All money via the govt schemes go to some non existent poor people and channeled into the politicians and bureaucrats pockets.

The tragic part is, this govt which showed a lot of promise in fighting corruption via demonetisation (totally ill conceived and misguided policy), IT raids, etc....has badly damaged its image by the dassualt rafale Ambani deal !!!
 
OP
OP
J
Also what started as a high level anti corruption crusade due to the 2g scam has been forgotten completely. Lokpal was the central premise of this agitation and was supposed to be setup to combat govt corruption.

Till date, no Lokpal has been setup and no action against corruption in govt bureaucracy and politicians.

Instead poor people, traders, etc..who have no healthcare ( they don't have cghs govt schemes), no life insurance, no pension like govt employees, and other benefits, are the main target of this anti corruption movement.

Poor people in the informal sector have to pay the taxes despite govt corruption, despite poor roads, despite poor structure - no hospitals, no schools, no education across the vast rural sector.

Govt employees are merrily making money via middle men as usual,

hence the the charge of phony outrage against corruption.
 
OP
OP
J
unless all corruption in central govt ministries have magically disappeared after the new regime took over !!!

justice has to be done and seen to be done, similarly action against corruption in the central govt has to be done and seen to be done via public offices like Lokpal...
 
Jaykay Sir, I agree with your posts #3, #4, and #5 to a great extent. But your original post is confusing to put it mildly. On one hand, you say that "corruption is bad" as an obvious one liner, yet you come up with strange theories of trickle-down effect of corrupt money etc. You don't want to see obvious one liners but then you come up with such fanciful and far-fetched one liners as the title of this thread.

My question to you is not merely rhetorical. Your response seems to be that no party has been sincere in tackling corruption. Even if we assume it is true, but how does one take the leap from that point to state that corruption helps to lift people out of poverty?

The world bank that you quote also released a report recently that stated that India had the highest number of people who were lifted out of poverty in the last two years , 2016-2018. The main reason claimed by the govt for this dramatic change is that this govt has reduced the middlemen and has ensured the money/ schemes earmarked for the poor didn't get pilfered along the way. In essence, the reduction in corruption is what lifted people out of poverty - basically the opposite of what you are saying. The projection is that if India can continue with the same economic growth, and if India can maintain the pace of lifting people out of poverty by ensuring minimum or no pilferage as is the case in past two years, then another 50 million out can be lifted out of poverty according to the world bank report which puts the poorest of poor population count in India only at ~75 million now.
 
OP
OP
J
No contradictions. Let me clarify..

My point in 2, 3, 4 are that all political parties are phony when it comes to corruption. They want to stop the poor from making money near cricket stadiums but they continue to loot as normal. They stop the peon from taking 100 Rs bribe who has 3 kids to feed but the mega scams continue. This response is to your comment on why I said it was phony.

My vie in OP is that let the poor make money near the stadiums, become middle men, etc..and earn money for their families. And that China so successfully pulled over 1 bil out of poverty is an example we should emulate rather than look elsewhere for solutions.

Sorry, I don't agree with the latest wb stats of only 75 mil under poverty, the situation has visibly worsened after demo and gst. Farmers are protesting in al states across the country. So I don't agre that the govt schemes ar reaching poor. I have met many roadside sellers who ar openly saying the situation has never been this bad in 40 yrs !!!

As far as 1 liners are concerned, it has be backed up with detailed justification like how I used the opening 1 liner and backed up with detailed argument. Most often people want to oppose for the sake of opposing, hence they keep shooting 1 liner responses without any background or context.
 
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OP
OP
J
Also we have 2 fundamentally different views in this county on the exact state of the economy,

One group believes that the country is doing really well and the poor are being uplifted in record nos, in which case this discussion is moot and irrelevant.

Second group incl me believe that the country is in really a bad shape after the messy demo and gst implementation. the farmer protests, farm loan waiver, unprecedented npa crisis, terrible saga of farmer suicides, alarming increase in CAD, rupee slipping to record lows, private investment has plummeted, etc.. show that the economy is in a mess. Entire bimaru states are in a mess leading to migration to other states across the country.

Hence the urgent need to find solutions to uplift our poor asap
 
I think poor becoming middlemen for purchase of cinema tickets,or helping to get various types of licences such as for vehicles in RTO,get grains

from ration shops , helping to pay domestic bills of utility companies or standing in queues for train ,bus tickets can hardly be called corrupt.

They are service providers and time savers for

the middle class. Why call them corrupt?
 

CHANDRU1849

Active member
Corruption is a great social leveller !


Relax calm down people..lets analyse this in detail,


In our country we have over 800 mil in dire poverty as per world bank ( okay make it 600 mil, let's not fight over nos.), with people struggling for 2 meals a day and proper nutrition. Forget the other basics like housing and toilets and education etc..


This is morally and ethically indefensible and there can be absolutely NO arguments that our only priority is to uplift them immediately. Not tomorrow, not day after, but today !!!!!


Given this what should a poor guy coming from a village or town do for living with out any education.


Before the phony outrage on corruption, this guy used to go to cricket Stadiums and buy tickets and then sell them to other people at higher rates. Similarly they have no choice but to become middle men and agents with various govt and private agencies. This used to feed him and his family.


Not all are born or made entrepreneurs...so we need to enable and provide jobs in the informal sector as much as possible,


Real estate brokers, govt agency middle men... All made huge money and ensured their family escaped the curse of poverty.


Also people who make a lot of ill gotten money ( I am no longer going to use the word black money... Only I'll gotten wealth. I am now formally an anti-White, anti-trump...racist to the racists guys - discussion for another day), spend much more than others.


So these guys with ill gotten wealth hire more house hold workers, more drivers, spend heavily on weddings etc..which spreads the wealth specifically to the poor. If the auto driver cheats or asks more, it is okay, pay more and help his family. .


People with ill gotten wealth also become entrepreneurs as they can afford to lose this money without worry or losing sleep. This further provides employment to our poor.


So we as a county need to leverage corruption and help mass uplift our poor rather than fighting it on some useless ideological grounds. Uplifting our poor should be our only immediate priority and not endless debates on morality while our poor die needlessly everyday.


In this regard, let's look at the Chinese govt, they used any and all means to uplift the 1 billion people, including stealing copyrights, blue prints, corruption, etc.. They backed their companies fully with govt money and enabled them to trade overseas, pick contracts, setup mfg centres in China, which provided jobs for 100s of millions Chinese people. Chinese companies used corruption with tacit govt support, to get contracts from all over the world and scaled into multi billion $$ companies today. So we need to copy and leverage their ideas.


(On a side note, I am totally opposed to the trade war by USA and hope this trump thug is impeached and thrown out asap. )


Unfortunaty, things have become worse for our people due to the ill conceived and messy implementation of demonetisation and gst. Both these policies have pushed 100s of millions back to dire poverty.


Given this, we as people need to do our part and do it now not in some distant future,


So folks please use autos more, use middle men, hire more house hold workers and drivers, buy tickets by paying double or more. As long as it helps our poor,there is and can be - no moral conflicts on this or bad karma.


Spread the wealth by any and all means necessary to help our people, folks, they are really really hurting now.


So Corruption is undoubtedly a great social leveller and it spreads wealth to our poor better than any govt policies as it is stymied by the terrible bureaucracy. This is also a great global leveller and provides a fair playing field against the well entrenched white countries like how China did in the last 30 yrs.

Your socialistic attitude is appreciated, but the method you suggested is dangerous to country like India, which is multi linguistic and multi religious and the political system is very erratic.

Instead, the Govt. can formulate strict laws in area like population, employment in Govt. Institutions both Central and State, taxation, agriculture, education may bring in more radical changes in economic status of downtrodden and BPL categories.

Late Kamaraj approach was fairly successful, which can be tried at National level.
 

prasad1

Active member
If corruption is leveler, why is it so prevalent among the rich?
Corruption at any level is immoral. If you think the laws are outdated, Change the law, but do not break the law.
If the poor have to resort to corruption, change the payment terms.
Do not encourage lawlessness. That is dangerous for any society.

It is only corrupt and/or ineffective enforcement officers who support corruption.
There may be some misguided Do-Godders who have given up on the ideals who would tolerate corruption and call it by other names.

Bribery and corruption continue to pose a significant challenge in India. The 2012 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions and Bribe Payers Indices rank India 94 (out of 176) and 19 (out of 28), respectively, indicating the severity of the issue.
Empirical evidence suggests that corruption invariably increases:

  • Transaction costs
  • Uncertainty in the economy
  • Lowers efficiency
  • Inhibits the development of a healthy marketplace
  • Distorts economic and social development



  • Strain on ethical behavior: Alarmingly, a large number of respondents appeared to be comfortable with (or were aware of) unethical business conduct. These include irregular accounting to hide bribery and corruption, gifts being given to seek favours.
  • Taking the easy way out: More than half of the respondents agreed that it is the lack of will to obtain licenses and approvals the “right way,” which leads to bribery and corruption.
  • Challenging times ahead: Around 83% of the respondents felt that cases of bribery and corruption can negatively impact FDI inflows
  • Need for greater enforcement of laws: Around 89% of the respondents felt that there should be greater enforcement of laws to curb the proliferation of bribery and corruption.
https://www.ey.com/in/en/services/a...ribery-and-corruption-ground-reality-in-india
 
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prasad1

Active member

In his rough estimate, he said that almost 15 percent of the budgeted expenditure funds go for corrupt practices. On the revenue side, on the other hand, much revenue is lost due to underassessment of real property for kickbacks and bribes. He admitted that, but for the rampant corruption of the Council vertically from the top to the bottom and horizontally across the various departments, much more revenue could be collected and a much better service could be provided.

Even here, it is the poor who are adversely affected. They are the ones who make use of the free Western as well as Eastern health services of the Municipality. It is also the poor who cannot afford to pay bribes and thereby are denied the various other services provided by the Municipality.Corruption also has unfavourable effects on the poor by creating a market for rent seeking activities for personal gain on the part of public servants.

Corruption has come back into the spotlight in recent weeks. Again, it is due to big players duping the government and public of big bucks. In more than one way, it reminds one of the 2012-14 phase with corruption allegations crossing billions. Headlines are scarily similar; government reactions even more so. Recently, global anti-corruption watchdog Transparency International ranked India as Asia-Pacific’s most corrupt country. In fact, the trajectory of massive scams coming out is also similar. Like last time, there is disillusionment about the economy and middle class drawing room rumblings have started. But this column won’t deal with that.


Irrespective of who rules and how much public money is siphoned off, India’s anti-corruption drive fails its worst victims, the poor. It is widely known that the poor, despite having no self-sustaining capacity, pay for accessing basic services which otherwise should be their entitlement. Transparency International says seven out of 10 people pay bribes to access public services. But we tend to focus on corruption only when big cases of fraud come to light. There is hardly any discussion on day-to-day corruption that mostly impacts the poor. Why? Because such corruption is more about quality of governance and is thus a statement on a regime’s effectiveness. Bribery for accessing healthcare in a district is more about a near-collapse of governance. Ideally, this is a much more electorally damaging scenario. But we don’t see a popular uprising over this. Rather, politicians cleverly use it to polarise voters on the rich-poor matrix.


Let’s look at demonetisation. The NDA government claims this as its biggest step to weed out corruption though it hardly had any visible impact. But it did create a perception that the rich were impacted the most. The poor endured it initially with a self-inflicted sense of taking revenge on the rich. It served the politicians’ purpose the best. After a year, the poor are now back to bribery to get basic services. The recent survey finds that Indians bribe the most for accessing health and education services. And 73 per cent of bribes paid in India came from low economy groups, the report says.

Similarly, in response to the recent bank fraud cases, the government has embarked on raids and property seizures that hardly suffice for the money laundered. But, again, by declaring these as “stringent” steps against the rich, the government is just polarising rich and poor.

But the poor are no more buying this. Farmer protests, petitions on linking Aadhaar to all basic facilities and forces uniting on a broad platform to take up the poor’s issues are indicators that only cosmetic steps to weed out corruption won’t help. Rather, the demand is now to deliver development. That is the right way to fight corruption impacting the poor.

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/why-india-s-poor-laugh-at-anti-corruption-campaigns-59855
 
OP
OP
J
The issue is not about do-Gooders giving up on ideals or whether corruption is immoral or not etc.. Also studying how corruption has failed in india is again irrelevant, one should look to China for solutions here.

Current situation is that people have waited for 78 yrs for Rama Rajyam but no where in sight. This govt too has failed, in fact in a terrible way by going back 50 yrs for our poor due to ill conceived demo and gst.

in the above context what is the right thing to do? It is only in times of great suffering we have to debate "hard choices".

Should our poor die waiting for better laws, strict governance, corruption free delivery of goods etc... Jwhich will never come In india or have a Robin Hood kind of governance like the Chinese govt where people are living with good food and shelter and amenities.

In my visit to China Shanghai, the taxi driver charged 3 times the price, and I simply paid since it was mid night. Do you think he can do this without tacit Chinese govt support which has over arching survellience on everything??

all of us need to get off our high horse and look for solutions here. Not keep saying this will not work and that will not work,
 
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OP
J
If this govt had delivered why the hell will anyone need to look for solutions here. The sad reality is that no govt can deliver in india specifically to the poor with the terrible bureaucracy !!! The worst part is we are going backwards now...with demo and gst.
 
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