Corruption in our country

[avv_calib1]

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Dear Members,

All are aware that nothing moves with the GOVERNMENT without bribing.

(1)Is GOVERNMENT really serious about this problem?
(2)Whether the present set up of GOVERNMENT administration is enough to eradicate corruption in government offices?
(3)I feel all government officials (from top to bottom) are involved in this and nobody is exception.
(4)The anti corruption department officials are not having good governance to eradicate corruption.
(5)Who is responsible for these type bad status in our country, whether “GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS” or “POLITICIANS” or “PUBLIC”.
A.V.V.RAJAGOPAL/COIMBATORE

 

[sravna]

(5)Who is responsible for these type bad status in our country, whether “GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS” or “POLITICIANS” or “PUBLIC”.
A.V.V.RAJAGOPAL/COIMBATORE

I think it is the public. The public get what they desrve. There needs to be more awakeneing among the public and they should not allow the politicians to go free for their corrupt acts. Something like the Anna Hazare movement though even stronger needs to happen. If the corrupt politicians are punished and not allowed to go scot free, then the type of people who are attracted to politics itself would change. More honest people who now view the system as hopeless would be willing to enter politics.

 

[Yamaka]

I think it is the public. The public get what they desrve. There needs to be more awakeneing among the public and they should not allow the politicians to go free for their corrupt acts. Something like the Anna Hazare movement though even stronger needs to happen. If the corrupt politicians are punished and not allowed to go scot free, then the type of people who are attracted to politics itself would change. More honest people who now view the system as hopeless would be willing to enter politics.

Dear Sravna:

I like the first part of your response.

My solution is Quality Education up to the level at least of high school to ALL citizens. When the quality of thinking among citizens improves, the leadership improves, and corruption goes down.

"Politicans" after all came from "the citizenry". "Leaders" are elected people by majority principle.

Anna Hazare has an NGO. Most people don't know how much he collects as donations and who is sponsoring his activities, how resources are used and whether he abuses "Gandhian" tag or not.

Press/media mostly act as Entertainers. Investigative Reporting is very rare.

Yes, People get what they deserve.

We need massive CHANGES in the Society as a whole... which could take decades and decades...if not more.

Cheers.

 

[B V RAAGHAVAN]

Before going into the ways to eradicate the corruption, we should know why there is corruption and what is corruption?

A person wants to get some work from the Govt. There are certain rules and certain documents required to be submitted for that work. But our Hero wants the work done without much hazzel. There are some loop-holes and the Govt. employee and our Hero both decide to take un-due advantage of the loop-holes. Here the corruption mama shows his ugly face. Our Hero, being anxious to get the work done, ready to pay any amount to the Govt. employee to get the work done by "short-cut". So the culprit is the public.

We should be strong enough to resist any sort of mis-guidance by the other party. Corruption thrives in Govt. departments only. We should keep our side clean and we should try get the work done without any extra payment.

If each and every citizen decides against any extra payment for any work, then there will be no corruption and everyday will be a beautiful day.
anbudan
adiyen

 

[prasad1]

There are mis-conceptions.

My solution is Quality Education up to the level at least of high school to ALL citizens. When the quality of thinking among citizens improves, the leadership improves, and corruption goes down.

The people in Government create the paper work needed with deliberate loop holes, so they can make money. There is no responsibility, and no consequence as the enforcement is corrupt.

In India educated people are one who are in hurry, and government officers are all educated people too. Education alone is not a solution. You need social revolution to change this mentality.

If each and every citizen decides against any extra payment for any work, then there will be no corruption and everyday will be a beautiful day.

Mr. Raghavan, You are an idealist, and you don't have a prayer.

 

[Yamaka]

There are mis-conceptions.

The people in Government create the paper work needed with deliberate loop holes, so they can make money. There is no responsibility, and no consequence as the enforcement is corrupt.

In India educated people are one who are in hurry, and government officers are all educated people too. Education alone is not a solution. You need social revolution to change this mentality.

Please read again what I wrote. I wrote "Quality Education" which will definitely bring the sense of Integrity and Professionalism to people.

Most "educated people" in India are just name-sake, they did not get real good Quality Education.

Case in point:

Recently, a 2-member Supreme Court threw out 122 licenses issued by A. Raja following the Cabinet Policy of FCFS. There is a parallel criminal trial going on in another place in the SC under judge OP Saini where A. Raja is also the prime defendant.

This SC without listening to anything A. Raja has to say on this very important matter of utmost significance (to Business and Society) found fault with him and threw out the entire 122 licenses and criticized the policy of FCFS. How could this happen?

Nowhere in the entire world such verdict is possible: Not listening to the Defendant at all!

I call this serious violation of Integrity and Professionalism.

Where's the Chief Justice who could have easily intervened on Procedural Violations of very Basic Kind?

All because of very poor Education, I think.

I agree there are multiple reasons for corruption in India.. It will take a major revolution to clean up the Society.

Where's India's Mao Zedong?

 

[T.S.Sankara Narayanan]

The tendency of Every Indian is Lack of Patience in each and every approach in Govt Departments. They (People) never want to come in " Q" and wait for their Turn to Come. Here the Bribe Starts as every one wants to overtake the other by unlawful means.

Next is they (People) never cooperate with the Norms and procedures defined by the Govt. They want to Execute their work with least papers and want to over take the other. This is also the Root of Corruption.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Before going into the ways to eradicate the corruption, we should know why there is corruption and what is corruption?

A person wants to get some work from the Govt. There are certain rules and certain documents required to be submitted for that work. But our Hero wants the work done without much hazzel. There are some loop-holes and the Govt. employee and our Hero both decide to take un-due advantage of the loop-holes. Here the corruption mama shows his ugly face. Our Hero, being anxious to get the work done, ready to pay any amount to the Govt. employee to get the work done by "short-cut". So the culprit is the public.

We should be strong enough to resist any sort of mis-guidance by the other party. Corruption thrives in Govt. departments only. We should keep our side clean and we should try get the work done without any extra payment.

If each and every citizen decides against any extra payment for any work, then there will be no corruption and everyday will be a beautiful day.
anbudan
adiyen

Dear Mr. Raaghavan!

As a member of the general public, and as a citizen concerned about corruption, and just as described by you about deciding against extra payment for any work, I would like to share one of my experiences. Note, it is just one of the experiences.

A few years ago, I wanted to get a duplicate copy of my registrtation book for my scooter, since the existing book was literally in tatters. So, I filled up and submitted all the relevant application forms, paid the officially prescribed fees for the issue of a duplicate book. I was told to come back after two weeks.

I went after 3 weeks, and enquired about the book. The person (call him X) at the counter, where I was supposed to pick up the book said " Sir, the officer who is to sign the issue of approval papers for the book has gone on leave, so, please come back after a week." So, I went back after 2 weeks, just in case the officer may have extended his leave by a few extra days.

This time Mr. X went inside and came back and said that the officer has not signed yet. I asked him if I can see the officer. He told me that the officer was too busy, that he would not be able to see me that day. I didn't know what to do, it was now more than 5 weeks since I applied. As I was coming out, I was accosted by somebody who said that he will get the book for me the next day if I gave him Rs. 100/-. I refused, came out, and went back again two weeks later. Same story. This dragged on for 6 months at the end of which I decided to try a new tack. This time, I did not ask any one if I could meet the officer, and in a dare, barged straight into his room, profusely excused myself, and told him what the problem was. He was surprised (at least pretended to be so) and called for the files, and found the relevant papers, and signed it and called his assistant to issue the duplicate book then and there. Aftre 6 months! Without paying a bribe !!

Now if this is the situation for a totally innocuous document (remember, I could still get by with the old tattered book), imagine what the situation would be if it was a vital document.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Corruption and illegal gratification are there in almost all Countries in the World in various degrees,
but it has become an endemic disease in our Country. Main cause for this is lack of transparency in Governance and cumbersome procedures. Corruption started spreading due to Government's interference in the form of license and permits during the forty years of Congress raj. Once the elections are over people's participation in Governance is not allowed by the rulers. All the Reports under the constitutional institutions for checks and balances are thrown into cold storage. Every session of Parliament produces numerous Legal legislation of various kinds, but majority of them were passed by voice vote without proper discussion by the members.

There are numerous legal options available to catch the corrupt people. But the cumbersome procedures and enormous delay in courts to punish the culprits shy away the honest citizen to pursue such options.

To cleanse the system, first and foremost is that the public should vote out corrupt politicians from governance. Fear of law should be instilled in the minds of people indulging in corrupt practices by making punishment for corruption severe and effective. All the gains made out of corrupt practices should be confiscated by the State while filing the charge-sheet itself.

More public movements like Anna Hazare's against corruption should be started.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Dear Brahmanyan Sir:

You say that "Main cause for corruption is lack of transparency in Governance and cumbersome procedures"

Transparency is what the politicians should come forward to implement - especially, the highly literate persons like MMS and PC who should be the ones to display this quality.

As you say, corruption and bribery are not the monopoly of Indians. Why does a highly prosperous country like the USA also display these traits? Mr. Yamaka was complaining about Indian judges. Do the US judges know any better?

As part of the Bill of Rights, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law abridging the freedom of speech.In 2010 the United States Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment prohibited the government from restricting political expenditures by corporations.

By this ruling, political action committees ( PACs) may accept unlimited contributions from individuals, unions, and corporations for the purpose of making independent expenditures. According to the Supreme Court, money is now speech, and corporations are now people.

The 2010 ruling made it legal for corporations to spend from their general treasuries to finance independent expenditures by political parties. The Supreme Court's decision ended all limits on political spending. Now millions of dollars are being funneled to politicians without a trace.

Even before this ruling, large corporations have been flooding Washington with lobbyists , bankrolling more and more lawmakers' campaigns. And a revolving door exists between Government and Wall Street -- bank executives become public officials who make rules that benefit the banks before heading back to the society at large to make money off the rules they created.

Money speaks, and an unlimited amount of it can now be spent bribing and cajoling politicians

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Brahmanyan Ji Sir,

When a slice of a population is ready to vote for a party on the basis of sops it is promised, then corruption starts. Even in a rich country like USA, you can see it, based on voting blocks. Even the recent woes of the Bengali couple in a Scandinavian country, losing the rights to their children can be traced to this.

The only remedy, in my opinion is to reduce the government's role to just catering to basic necessary functions to safeguard a society (military, security and upholding the Constitution). All the corruption stems,in my opinion, the mistaken belief by the progressives that a government can solve all the society's ills. Only the people can solve them.

I. for one think that Anna's movement is well ahead of it's time. All corruption need to be tackled at the grass roots level, and that means they ought to be resolved in a legitimate political way and expression. Anything outside of that, in my opinion, will fall prey to folks who are opportunists.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sarang]

In one sentence - yata raja tata praja:

It is now understood and accepted that there is less corruption in gujarat under narendra modi.

Personally, he leads a simple, transparent and clean life. He intervenes with the officials and ministers if cases of corruption are brought to his notice by the victim. He ensures that rules are simplified and not bent. No one, not even one has raised any corruption charge against him. Ratan tata said in public that there are good Ms (modi)and bad Ms (mamta).

manmohan singh is the most corrupt because he turns a blind eye to the high level of corruption of the ministers under him and the sonia family.

Unless the king believes and practices our dharma - satyam vada, dharmam chara, and enforces the dharmic laws on his subjects, there is little chance of eradicating corruption.

Laws will not help; we have enough laws. Discipline will not help; defence forces are the most disciplined in the country. Education doesn't help. Our IAS and IPS are well educated. MMS has a Ph.D.. Having born rich people in power will not help. praful patel has bled air india, but personally gained a lot. kamal nath got a 15% cut on all infrastructure projects (revealed in radia tapes by no less a person - tarun das, chief of CII.

In all the services and departments - police, transport, passport etc. - everyone from the top, from minister down, gets a cut. Last year a lady passport officer in chennai was found having 3 crores in her car a day's collection; as a departmental head, she was entrusted with the task the money reaches all the same day.

I believe a modi type head of state is necessary to contain corruption.

From Times:

The Time magazine article says Modi is a firm, "no-nonsense leader" who can steer India out of a "mire of chronic corruption and inefficiency".

 

[B V RAAGHAVAN]

"Originally posted by Naina_Marbus:

This time, I did not ask any one if I could meet the officer, and in a dare, barged straight into his room, profusely excused myself, and told him what the problem was. He was surprised (at least pretended to be so) and called for the files, and found the relevant papers, and signed it and called his assistant to issue the duplicate book then and there. Aftre 6 months! Without paying a bribe !!"

Congrats. That should be the spirit. If every one take a strong step, then the Govt. babu also will shy away from his corrupt practices. Hope to see a shining India soon.

Anbuden
Adiyen

 

[venkat2206]

Dear Members,

Really an interesting topic. Fundamental sound eduction can change the society. But with the highest level of eduction people who are IAS or IRS are accumulating highest amount of ill wealth. An ideal example where higher eduction used intelligently to acquire higher wealth. So what is needed here is not only a higher eduction but also a basic mentality of not acquiring ill wealth. May be fear of God may change the situations.

I strongly support the views expressed by Mr Cho Ramasamy time and again in his magazine about Shri Anna Hazare - a publicity crazy person. In the absence of TV channels, he will be intrerested in expressing his views. Even in his own Pune District the ruling party is congress or its allies even in recent municipal elections. Initially the points raised by Mr Anna were really good. But with more and more of TV coverage he started talking about anything and everything under the sun. The focus which was there ih his first stint at Delhi was completely missing in Mumbai resulted in flop show and he vacated the place before the end of even three days.

Then, what is the Solution? May be a strong judicia system with speedy judgements in corruption cases can bring some mindset changes. Till then, we start making all sorts of adjustments to our life thinking that things will happen like this only. In otherwords, we have already started adjusting ourself to the basic evil of corruption. As long as some portion is going to corruption account and the remaining amounts are spent for the improvements of facilities let us be happy about it.

Rgs

Venkat

 

[Nara]

... According to the Supreme Court, money is now speech, and corporations are now people.

Dear Naina_Marbus, it is not just now, money = speech ruling was in 1976. Corporations are people ruling was in 1886, 124 years ago.

Just make it legal, like we do in the U.S., viola, no more corruption. Make a price list, how much for each service, call it "fees", done, corruption solved.

Unfettered capitalism is the biggest source of corruption perpetrated by big business and their subservient politicians upon ordinary people. Compared to the day-light robbery of these MNCs etc., the petty corruption of low-level government employees is nothing - not that this must be condoned. Individuals taking bribes in the range of Rs. 100 are corrupt, those paying off politicians hundreds of crores so that they can rob the poor adivasees of their land and livelihood, they are called business leaders, job-creators.

Keep the common folks focused on petty corruption so that that the wholesale corruption taking place in the shape of massive transfer of wealth from the ordinary people to the already rich can go on, unnoticed and uninterrupted.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Brahmanyan Sir:

You say that "Main cause for corruption is lack of transparency in Governance and cumbersome procedures"

Transparency is what the politicians should come forward to implement - especially, the highly literate persons like MMS and PC who should be the ones to display this quality.

As you say, corruption and bribery are not the monopoly of Indians. Why does a highly prosperous country like the USA also display these traits? Mr. Yamaka was complaining about Indian judges. Do the US judges know any better?

As part of the Bill of Rights, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law abridging the freedom of speech.In 2010 the United States Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment prohibited the government from restricting political expenditures by corporations.

By this ruling, political action committees ( PACs) may accept unlimited contributions from individuals, unions, and corporations for the purpose of making independent expenditures. According to the Supreme Court, money is now speech, and corporations are now people.

The 2010 ruling made it legal for corporations to spend from their general treasuries to finance independent expenditures by political parties. The Supreme Court's decision ended all limits on political spending. Now millions of dollars are being funneled to politicians without a trace.

Even before this ruling, large corporations have been flooding Washington with lobbyists , bankrolling more and more lawmakers' campaigns. And a revolving door exists between Government and Wall Street -- bank executives become public officials who make rules that benefit the banks before heading back to the society at large to make money off the rules they created.

Money speaks, and an unlimited amount of it can now be spent bribing and cajoling politicians

Dear Naina;

1. As you may know that Politics is practiced openly in electing Judges in the US, including selecting the SCOTUS.

2. Yes, "Citizens United Vs. HRC" was a seminal moment in the history of the US Campaign Finance Laws. I don't support it. But as of today that's the law of the land.

Super PACs are running this Primary Season... they are being used by ALL candidates and BOTH Parties. It's hard to know now as who are the real VICTIMS or LOSERS. We need to wait and watch for the long term effect of this new SCOTUS Ruling.

(This is totally a different matter. You are trying to Obfuscate the issue here, I am afraid) .

But, in India things are quite different. Judges are appointed. They can be expected to act BETTER and highly PROFESSIONAL. Tell me this,

How could a Supreme Court render a Verdict w/o listening to the Central Figure of the Issue (A. Raja, former IT Minister who issued 122 licenses following the FCFS Cabinet Policy)?

How could they comment on A. Raja's action when a parallel criminal case is running in the SC itself under Judge OP Saini?

I consider this a Professional Misconduct... not necessarily the retail corruption that you are all talking here!

I was talking about Integrity & Professionalism among educated people in India.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Project Modi as the BJP Candidate for PM in 2014: Earn an Electoral Shellacking!

I believe a modi type head of state is necessary to contain corruption.

From Times:

The Time magazine article says Modi is a firm, "no-nonsense leader" who can steer India out of a "mire of chronic corruption and inefficiency".

Dear ALL:

India91% knows very well what would happen to them when Communal Riots break out thanks to Modi & Party.

I only wish that BJP & other Right Wingers project Modi as the PM Candidate for 2014 General Election.

Then Indians will be talking about "What's shellacking?..... Oh that's Losing the Deposit!"

Wait & watch.

 

[sarang]

Modi bashingis like brahmin bashing by evr loyalists and ex-brahmins. Nothing will stick because there is no truth in the accusation; anyway he is not keen to be a pm as of now. We can wait and watch.

He was felicitated with a title in pune yesterday. Some quotes from his speech. Surprise, surprise, even the english tv media showed his presence, but were keen to highlight that he did not shake hands with suresh kamadi. Good points made by him got some exposure.

PUNE: Narendra Modi criticised the UPA government on Sunday for making very little allocations for development projects in the Budget and spending more time discussing the controversial birth date row of the army chief.Speaking at a function where he was presented with the 'Gujarat Ratna' award of the Shree Poona Gujarati Bandhu Samaj - which is celebrating its centenary foundation year - Modi also took on the government for imposing a ban on cotton export and denying high return opportunities to farmers.On the Union Budget presented by Pranab Mukherjee, Modi said the Budget has 70% of its budgetary allocation for salaries, while 30% is for development. "Gujarat, on the other hand, spends 70% of its revenue income on development projects and 30% on salaries and maintenance of the system."
"Gujarat has the highest cotton production in the country. The Union government did not like this and, hence, the ban on export of cotton bales was imposed. The cotton bale production in Gujarat is 1.23 crore bales this year, which was 23 lakh bales in 2001. Along with Gujarat, cotton is also grown in Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh, but farmers are committing suicides in these two states and not in Gujarat. This is only due to the government's impractical policies," he added.
Drawing attention towards his home state Gujarat, Modi said it is a profit making state in terms of revenue generation. "Gujarat follows almost the same rules and regulations as the other states in the country. The only difference is that the urge of its people for development and growth is encouraged. If Gujarat can achieve this, then why can't the Union government?" He also said that his state has not imposed or increased new taxes on people.

Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi raised the pitch for full utilisation of solar energyand use of rainwater for rapid growth of a state.
He was speaking at a programme organized by 'Vanrai' to release two editions of a book authored by former union minister Mohan Dharia, on Sunday.
"The development of Gujarat in recent years was possible because of proper utilisation of natural resources. Projects on rainwater harvesting and solar power generation have given a boost to the state's development," he said.

​

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

You said in post # 15 above:

Keep the common folks focused on petty corruption so that that the wholesale corruption taking place in the shape of massive transfer of wealth from the ordinary people to the already rich can go on, unnoticed and uninterrupted.

Whoa! Massive TRANSFER of wealth? Really? How is this happening? Last time I looked, the bottom 50% of the country pays 2% of total taxes. Is there something going on that I don't know about?

Regards,
KRS

 

[zebra16]

they (i.e. the public) should not allow the politicians to go free for their corrupt acts.... If the corrupt politicians are punished and not allowed to go scot free, then the type of people who are attracted to politics itself would change.

Sri Sravanaji,

How does your above quoted text squares with the karma theory?

1. Why should the public take it upon themselves to punish the corrupt or guilty, when the impartial Ishwara will take into account such misdemeanours while awarding the karma phala in the subsequent births?

2. If the punishment meted out by the public or judiciary is just and fair, does it mean the corrupt will be free of the karma phala in subsequent births, as per karma theory?

 

[Nara]

...Whoa! Massive TRANSFER of wealth? Really? How is this happening? Last time I looked, the bottom 50% of the country pays 2% of total taxes. Is there something going on that I don't know about?

Dear brother, to understand what I am saying you have to look at the broad picture. From the tax foundation summary here I give below the % breakdown of who pays what % of taxes.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 221"]
[TR]
[TD]Wealth[/TD]
[TD]% Taxes paid
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Top 1%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 - 10%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11 - 40%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bottom 50%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So, you are correct, the bottom 50% of Americans are paying only 2% of the taxes. But, pointing to this is diverting the attention from where the banditry is actually taking place. This is what good magicians do, divert attention away from where the slight of hand involved in the trick is taking place.

I would like to explain this magic trick the already wealthy use to amass even more wealth with a simplified illustration. Let us suppose the total wealth produced in one year is $1,000. Also suppose that in the aggregate $500 is necessary for the whole nation to maintain a reasonable life style, at the current level of technology, for one year. This leaves a surplus wealth of $500. The important question now is, how is this surplus going to be shared?

Let us make some reasonable assumptions. We all know that the bottom 50% are barely making ends meet, so they get nothing. We also know the top 1% and the remaining 9% of the top 10% get a lion's share of this surplus, and the balance 40% get a little bit scraps. So, I am going to use these percentages: 50% of the surplus for the top 1%, 40% for the next 9% and 10% for next 40%. Now, I know I just pulled these numbers from thin air, but let us not quibble about these percentages, you may change it to what you think are honestly reasonable and the point of my presentation will not significantly change.

Now the question of taxes. Let us suppose 20% of total production is taxes, i.e. $200. This is going to be collected as shown in the above table.

Now let us put all of this together in the following table:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 777"]
[TR]
[TD]Wealth tier[/TD]
[TD]% Taxes paid[/TD]
[TD]Share of surplus %[/TD]
[TD]Share of surplus $[/TD]
[TD]Taxes paid[/TD]
[TD]Share of surplus after taxes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Top 1%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]50%[/TD]
[TD] $ 250[/TD]
[TD] $ 73.46[/TD]
[TD] $ 176.54[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 - 10%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40%[/TD]
[TD] $ 200[/TD]
[TD] $ 67.47[/TD]
[TD] $ 132.53[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11 - 40%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD] $ 50[/TD]
[TD] $ 54.56[/TD]
[TD] $ (4.56)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bottom 50%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0%[/TD]
[TD]$0[/TD]
[TD] $ 4.51[/TD]
[TD] $ (4.51)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

You see, even if the taxes of bottom 50% are excused, i.e., they pay not even the 2% but 0% taxes, still the top 10% are making out like bandits at the expenses the rest of the 90%.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

I marvel at the way you have arrived at the nrgative numbers for the lower brackets!

The first problem with your above statement is that your assumption that the society as a whole has the rights to all production/wealth. That is Communism/Socialism.

In Capitalism, folks who take risks with their Capital get to keep the wealth, sans taxes. Progressive taxation is a primary way to transfer part of the wealth to the poorer sections of the society to take care of major needs. We can agree or disagree what these needs are and that is a fair argument.

But to say that all wealth created by an enterprise belong to the whole society, in my opinion, is not only very wrong, but not workable for a country like ours. History has shown that to be true.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

....The first problem with your above statement is that your assumption that the society as a whole has the rights to all production/wealth. That is Communism/Socialism.

Dear brother, before you start labeling, let us first resolve that the 2% tax by bottom 50% argument shows there was no robbery is untenable.

In Capitalism, folks who take risks with their Capital get to keep the wealth, sans taxes.

Capital by itself cannot generate any wealth, let alone surplus wealth. While we may argue about to whom the surplus wealth belongs, it is unreasonable to assert it belongs in its entirety only to those who advance the capital.

One more aspect of this is the extent of surplus wealth the working people are compelled to generate. Left to itself Capital will suck the life blood of not just labor, but all the resources, never to be satiated. This is exactly what MNCs and big corporations in a laissez-faire environment will do. There must be some reasonable limit worked out through truly free democratic process, not one that is controlled by the oligarchs.

Progressive taxation is a primary way to transfer part of the wealth to the poorer sections of the society to take care of major needs. We can agree or disagree what these needs are and that is a fair argument.

This is the key, but the game is rigged in such a way that the laboring common folks never get a fair shake. All the surplus wealth that gets produced is expropriated by the rich, while the poor are kept mired down, fighting each other, on issues such as use of contraceptives, or, whether Obama is an Arab.

Not only progressive taxation is necessary, but we need progressive regulations as well, those that limit the reckless exploitation of all types of resources including labor.

The oligarchs will never allow an honest debate about these issues, it is too risky for them.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

You said:

Capital by itself cannot generate any wealth, let alone surplus wealth. While we may argue about to whom the surplus wealth belongs, it is unreasonable to assert it belongs in its entirety only to those who advance the capital.

One more aspect of this is the extent of surplus wealth the working people are compelled to generate. Left to itself Capital will suck the life blood of not just labor, but all the resources, never to be satiated. This is exactly what MNCs and big corporations in a laissez-faire environment will do. There must be some reasonable limit worked out through truly free democratic process, not one that is controlled by the oligarchs.

Employment of capital and taking on the risks that are inherent in such a venture is what generates wealth. Employment of labor and other resources are important to the process, but without capital, you can not have them. While labor and other resources are instruments that add value in the creation of profit after taxes(wealth), they are still costs to be borne in the utilization of the capital.

So, there is nothing 'unreasonable' to assert that the created wealth belongs to those who employed the capital.

A society has every right to control any enterprise in terms of what is injurious to the society. While no regulation will be exploited by businesses (they are in it to create wealth), too much of regulation will keep the capital on the sidelines, for risk will go up. So there ought to be a fine line, otherwise wealth will not be created at all. No one is arguing against sensible regulations here.

Market forces should decide the costs for labor etc., assuming that there is a competitive and efficient market there. There are 3 million jobs that are unfilled in USA, because of want of skilled labor. I absolutely think that this is where the government and private industry could and should work together to supply the needed labor.

I don't share your view on 'oligarchs'. The private companies that employ almost 2/3rd of American workforce have 5000 or less employees.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

....Employment of capital and taking on the risks that are inherent in such a venture is what generates wealth.

[...]

So, there is nothing 'unreasonable' to assert that the created wealth belongs to those who employed the capital.

[...]

So there ought to be a fine line, otherwise wealth will not be created at all.

Dear brother, the capitalist system of production is only about 300 years old. The society managed to create wealth just fine until that time. So, it is clear capital is not what creates wealth, only labor does. Even this capital is usurped labor from the past, capital just cannot exist without extracting surplus labor at one time or another. Capital just cannot exist unless accumulated by past expropriation of surplus wealth.

There are a lot of technical arguments to show how labor is systematically robbed by those who provide capital, but I don't think people will care to understand them as they are too technical. However, even the most dried in the wool capitalist, the likes of Riccardo and Adam Smith, agree wealth creation cannot arise without labor power. So at the very least labor has a legitimate claim for at least half or some significant part of the surplus wealth created. To say those who provide capital have an unfettered right to the entirety of the surplus wealth is not a position even of Adam Smith.

No one is arguing against sensible regulations here.

What is sensible is the detail where the devil lies. The rich and powerful have the politicians bought and paid for. There is no voice for the common man to make a difference. In practical terms, sensible regulation is nothing but ones that favor the rich and powerful. But, if by sensible you mean something that ensures the prevention of exploitation of resources including labor that is injurious to the society at large, and that use of resources including labor is paid for at the true cost, then I am with you.

Market forces should decide the costs for labor etc., assuming that there is a competitive and efficient market there.

A free market is one in which free exchange of commodities of equal value is possible. That there is such a truly free and competitive labor market is a complete myth.

I don't share your view on 'oligarchs'.

You don't surprise me!! However, even a brief study of US history, if you are so inclined, will disabuse of this notion. Each and every little concession from the oligarchs has come only after prolonged struggle. Even the 40-hour week we all take for granted is a reality now because there were people who were willing to lay their lives on the line and many literally had to make good on this risk.

The yaksha of Mahabharata asked what was the most unbelievable thing on earth, for which Yudhsitra is supposed to have answered humans think they will live for ever even while seeing death all around. This is indeed a great answer, but a close second is the the myth that has been sold to every hardworking slob that one day this free-market capitalist system will elevate him/her to be rich, i.e., one of the expropriators. Sadly, that day can never come for most of us, the working stiffs.

Cheers!