clarification on bhagawat gita

[prasad1]

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here we go again. "i only know this, and that is my answer to all and any question". I said so, i know it all, so that is the end of discussion.

loleep:

 

[Nara]

.....Please self edit. There is no need for this. I thought we were moving forward.

Dear Brother KRS, please tell me what the factual error is. If it is sentiments that get hurt by truth is what you are talking about, this should go both ways. I have been taking it in the shin for far too long because I did not care about them, I was able to engage with thoughtful people, yes we used to have some of those, like Anand, Sapthjihva from long back, and few others who post occasionally.

Now, those who may share my enthusiasm for rational debate have been driven out, yes, yes they went on their own accord, they can come back if they want -- but all this is just rationalization. When I started the thread "I want all of them back" these meanies couldn't stay away, they were the first to jump in and poison the well, all perfectly within the rules. I don't know about Suraju and Saidevo, I know the rest are not coming back and that just suits these meanies fine because they don't care about the vibrancy of the forum, all they care is to have their say with their sentiments hurt by some pesky facts.

All this hurts my sentiments very badly.

If these faithful are allowed to freely throw mud at every opportunity, to the extent of saying they wish to shoot us atheists all down, gets "Likes" and all is within the rules, now I present some indisputable facts, and that hurts their sentiments.

These are people here who stalk some members making snide remarks at every opportunity (see the recent one by prasad1), Tanya Harding can take a lesson or two from these meanies.

I am sad too!!

If you want please edit it out, with red ink, and as you edit, please see whether you can edit out all the personally mocking and derisive comments made by ShivKC, prasad1, VR, and ozone also.

Cheers!

p.s. to Raghy: K was continuously stalked and insulted by prasad1 and ozone. He got so disgusted he now does not even want to talk about it. He says he is done. This is why I am so sad, a group of people ganged up and drove a set of people just because they expressed views that they did not like, so sad.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.KRS, Greetings.

Kindly tell me, why you are not editing / moderating personal remarks? Sri.Nara has a very valid point here. If we are going to treat him like filth, then why should we ask him to comeback to the forum? Conveniently he left, all we had to was to leave him alone as 'good riddance' (actually one member wrote that too).

When I wrote a message asking Sri.Nara to comeback, why somany people clicked 'like' to that post if we are going to ill treat him? did you guys clicked 'like' only to the portion which commented about his ego? (Sri.Nara mentioned that anyway).

Sri.KRS, I am not happy with the way the moderation is done. You are asking Sri.Nara not to insult Sri.Saibaba and not to insult Srimad baghavad Gita; fair enough. But why you are not deleting the posts insulting Sri.Nara? Kindly delete them, please.

You wondered how the forum was fuctioning while you were away and with little moderation.... I can give you some account. There were at least 3 instances where I pulled Sri.Nara when he over stepped and asked him to apologise (not to me. We were not even in talking terms). Sri.Nara accepted and apologised to those offended members during those instances.

While I am writing this, Sri.Nara, that little conversation you had with Sowbagyavathy Renuka was not in good taste. I sincerely believe you should comfort her. Nobody is perfect.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

I was not intending to come back and post here when I said goodbye yesterday. But, reading Shri Nara's posts and the various reactions to it, emanating from the Super Moderator even, I feel the contents of the following longish excerpt may be of use to many here.


The people of this world are of two ever
antagonistic and opposing classes, the majority
and the minority. From the unstoried days of
a forgotten past, through all the long ages to
the ever-present now, these two classes have
ever been and doubtless ever will be. In the
affairs of everyday life, the majority is called
the wise, and the minority, the foolish. In
politics, the majority is usually called the
conservative, and the minority, the radical. In
religion, the majority is called the orthodox,
and the minority, the unorthodox, heretics, free-
thinkers, infidels. In the last analysis, orthodoxy
means majority, nothing more; unorthodoxy
or infidelity means minority, nothing else.

The majority, the conservative, the orthodox
are those who uphold or defend the existing
order of things. They maintain that our present
system of government is the best one ; that
our modern conception of science is the correct
one; that our present belief in religion is the
true one. With this class the only hope of progress
lies in conforming more closely to their
present ideals. The minority, the unorthodox,
the freethinkers, the infidels are those who
believe that our present system of government,
our present conception of science, and our present
beliefs in religion are not the best that can
or will be. It is the constant endeavor of this
class to make our institutions conform to our
ever-growing ideals. The laws, customs, beliefs,
and religions of his ancestors the unorthodox
may accept as good for them and their day, but
he refuses to be bound by them, hoping by the
lessons they have taught that he may build more
grandly for the future. The essence of unor-
thodoxy is that we prove all things and hold
fast only that which is true.

There are varying degrees of unorthodoxy.
There are those who tell us confidentially that
their party platform is not as good as it should
be; that our government is not just what it
might be; that the creed of their church they
cannot altogether accept; but, they add, they
are willing to let the existing order of things
prevail, willing to let the old majority rule,
rather than to disturb the confidence of the
people in their party, their government, or their
religion. Such people are of little value to
the world; at best they are but brakes on the
wheels of progress. The brakes may at times
be of service but they never moved a load or
turned a wheel.

Then there is another class of unorthodoxy.
They have outgrown the old beliefs, but still
cling to the old institutions and vainly try to
reinterpret the old creeds and doctrines to con-
form to modern truths. These are they who
would put the new wine in the old bottles.
These are they who would build the new tem-
ple of truth on the ancient foundation of super-
stition. Such people constitute a large and
growing part of the professedly orthodox.
Could they only throw off their allegiance to
the past, they would be of much service in
building this temple. As it is, they cannot
build; they can only remodel and repair the
old and tottering structure.

Then there is a class of unorthodox who em-
phactically differ from the majority. They
think they see the glorious ideals of better
things ahead, and they boldly proclaim it from
the house top. They are filled with a burning
desire to point out the way to the unprogressive
and unthinking majority. This class furnishes
the world with its prophets, its philosophers,
its reformers, its heroes, and its martyrs.

Note: Most of our revered Acaaryas like Sankara,
Ramanuja, Madhwa and many others, including whoever wrote the Bhagavadgeetha, also would have belonged to the minority or infidel category for the majority conservatives of their days.

Jesus also was one such heretic for which he was punished by the Sanhedrin and Jewish Priests; they accused Jesus of blasphemy.

And now Swami Sandeepananda Giri of Chinmaya Mission categorically asserts that the Mahabharata War never happened; Gita never happened. Swami Udit Chaitanya says there is no need for any pitru karma because sastras say the jeevatma gets absorbed with the Paramatma on physical death. That is Mukti for one and all! Are these Swamis to be hounded out too?

Whether the unorthodox be mild or radical,
whether they still cherish the old faiths or have
discarded the ancient forms, they are all tending
in the same general direction — away from
the authority of the past. By different routes
and at different rates of speed, they are all
sailing upon the rough sea of progress, while
the orthodox majority float serenely in the
shallow and placid waters of antiquity. Ortho-
doxy means stagnation; unorthodoxy means
progress. Orthodoxy is a call from the past, a
voice from the grave, bidding us stand still.
Orthodoxy is always dying. Unorthodoxy is a
voice from the future, a call from the infinite,
bidding us onward. Unorthodoxy is an eternal
birth.

All history is but the record of the successes
and failures of the unorthodox. Every
advancement that has been made in the world has
started with the minority, with the infidel.
Every man who has risen above his fellowmen
has done so by virtue of his heresy. Nor could
it be otherwise ; for only those who are
dissatisfied with the present can improve the future;
only those who differ from the majority can
command attention; only those who are ahead
of the procession can lead the procession.

In considering the work of the unorthodox,
we must remember that that which is orthodox
in one country may be very unorthodox in an-
other. Christianity is orthodoxy in America,
but in Turkey the Christian is a dog of an
infidel. Catholicism is orthodoxy in Spain, and there
the Protestant is a heretic. We must also re-
member that that which is unorthodox in one
age may be orthodox in another. A century
ago to doubt that God so loved the world that
he would ultimately burn the majority of its
inhabitants in a hell of eternal fire was to
forfeit one's right to be called a Christian. Today
such doubt does not of itself make one an
infidel. Nor must we forget that one may be very
orthodox in one line of thought and yet very
unorthodox in another. Columbus may have
been orthodox on the Fall of Man and the Atonement ,
but he was very unorthodox concerning
the teachings of the Church as to the contour of
the earth. It was in the line of his unorthodoxy
that he was of value to the world. Copernicus
and Galileo may have been orthodox concern-
ing God and the Trinity, but they were very
unorthodox about Genesis and astronomy. It
was their unorthodoxy, their infidelity, that
made their names immortal.
— Extract from “The evolution of religion” by William A. Hinckle, M.D.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sarang,

Azhwars initially had made several references to gita, vedas and upanishads. But when collating, some samskritam/north hating misguided souls had deleted those pasurams and references.

Where from did you get this piece of info? Source please.

 

[suraju06]

Sangom,

Your post #29:

There is another kind of majority which I want to speak about here. This has members who have command over the English language, have a lot of time at their disposal to spend in the net, can refer to several texts to reproduce verbatim printed material from those books, present ideas which are abuses camouflaged in flowery language (thus it is said and yet not said). When the members who do not have such facilities encounter this group they are overwhelmed by hundreds to one though it is a one on one situation physically or numerically. An ordinary member who may not have such facilities may be fuming after reading the posts of these select gifted members and yet can do little about it because of the lack of all those facilities. Don't you think this majority also deserves a treatment that is given in the lengthy material cut and pasted by you? This is again a majority versus minority situation. I think this is the problem this forum is facing now. It would be better for the forum if the majorityism of this kind realises its responsibilities and play down its stridency which will naturally evoke appreciation. It is like my communist friend questioning my faith, saying that there is nothing more important than poverty in this earth and the street corner platform speaker saying that he is going to arrange for a garland of chappals for the Ganesh idol to be taken in a procession. The former is decent and so I can deal with and the later is not though the later gets louder ovation than the former. So majority and minority may not be the right yardstick to measure right and wrong. There is many a time when a tyranny of the minority that is encountered in real life goes completely out of control and becomes unmanageable--யானை செய்த கோலாகலம் போல.

Cheers.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Read the Bhagavat Gita written by Mahatma Gandhi. It is much better than all those fake Isk(con) versions, and will clarify all your questions. Gandhi says, the Gita is essentially a human conflict, a battle between good and evil in which there are no victors or vanquished. It seems you are taking the discourse between Krishna and Arjuna literally.

 

[ashwin_ash]

On an entirely different note, the moderators of this forum behave like dictators at times, which keeps people away from this forum sometimes. If you want decent people back to the forum, please set your house in order, moderators. Separate the wheat from the chaff by all means, but please exercise discretion doing so.

 

[suraju06]

Folks,

Have you read the கீதைப் பேருரைகள் in Tamil by Shri Vinoba Bhave? I would recommend it to those who can read Tamil. It is a unique book presenting the BG in simple language. It is actually the compilation of 18 lectures on BG presented by Vinoba to the fellow prisoners when he was in the Dooliya prison as a political prisoner. The lectures were originally in Marathi language and were published as a book by name Gita Pravachane in Marathi. Sarvodaya Prasuraalayam, Thanjavur had brought out the Tamil Translation of these lectures as கீதைப் பேருரைகள். For those who are really interested in knowing I give below an excerpt from the opening remarks in the book's first chapter:

அன்பார்ந்த சகோதரர்களே,

இன்று முதல் நான் ஸ்ரீமத் பகவத்கீதையை பற்றிச்சொல்லப் போகிறேன். கீதைக்கும் எனக்கும் உள்ள தொடர்பு பகுத்தறிவை மீறியதொன்று. என் உடல் தாயின் பாலினால் வளர்ந்திருப்பதினும் அதிகமாய் என் உள்ளமும் அறிவும் கீதையாம் பாலினால் வளம் பெற்றிருக்கின்றன. உள்ளத்தொடர்பு உள்ளவிடத்து தர்க்கத்துக்கு இடம் இருப்பதில்லை.தர்க்கத்தை நீக்கி சிரத்தை அனுஷ்ட்டானம் எனும் இரு சிறகுகளின் துணைகொண்டு நான் கீதை எனும்
வானில் என் சக்திக்குகந்த வகையில் எழும்பி வட்டமிட்டவண்ணம் இருக்கிறேன். நான் பெரும்பாலும் இருப்பது கீதைச் சூழ்நிலையில் தான். கீதையை என் உயிர் தத்துவமென்றே கூறலாம். நான் பிறருடன் கீதையைக்குறித்து உரையாடுகையில் கீதைக்கடலில் நீந்துகிறேன். தனித்திருக்கையிலோ அவ்வமுத வாரிதியினடியில் ஆழ்ந்து அமர்ந்து விடுகிறேன். இக்கீதைத் தாயின் வரலாற்றை நான் ஞாயிறு தோறும் கூறுவதேன முடிவாகியிருக்கிறது...................................

 

[sarang]

Ha ha! You missed all the sarcasm; you are the one talking of interpolations and distorting everything to suit your viewpoint!
Where did I say that Nathamuni deleted references to vedas. Nammazhwar gave divyagnanam to Nathamuni and taught him the pasurams of all the tweleve azhwars (including his own).

Neither vaishnavites (staunch, modern, neo modern) will not accept your interpolations; perhaps you can approach nakkeran to publish your mis-interpretations. Since all DK gangs are lying low, it will be difficult to find a publisher.

The 4000 compendium we now have was compiled by Sriman Nathamunigal. So, if what you are saying is true, Nathamuni was a hating misguided soul who deleted all those initial verses that had references to gita. Would this not he hurting the sentiments of millions of SVs for whom Nathamuni is next only to Nammazhvar in their Acharya lineage?

My dear brother sarang, I understand your reverence for BG, I also like a lot of stuff in it, much of it is borrowed from Kapilar's Sankhya. But that does not mean it is not just another interpolation and the dharma it promoted for Arjuna was to kill his own kith and kin.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....While I am writing this, Sri.Nara, that little conversation you had with Sowbagyavathy Renuka was not in good taste. I sincerely believe you should comfort her. Nobody is perfect.

Dear Raghy, thanks for the post, I have been pleading with these folks for some semblance of civility for a long time. As you have observed, I have never let what you see as giant sized ego come in the way of apologizing and moving on.

So for, I never cared for these silly background noise and ignored the likes of ShivKCs and prasad1s. As I often say, I do have a thick skin. But it is still skin and it has been shaved down to wafer thin now that the old worthy adversaries fading away and the new loud mouths gaining dominance.

I put up with all this as well, never let it bother me. In fact in the background I have been cajoling people who trust me to not get upset and tried to work out some sort of compromise (never requested let alone demanded KSR's resignation) that everyone can live with. Yet these know nothings crapped all over as though I was holding the forum ransom. None of their vile and hateful comments were purged or even objected to by anyone in a meaningful way.

Then, I started the "I want all of them back" thread with the idea of getting everyone together. I foolishly expected people to rally around and get them back, boy was I wrong. Within a NY second these guys crapping all over, prasad1, ozone and ShivKC. The coup de grace was ShivKC, he has the gall to say "let sh.nara be reminded, people on the otherside too can take the same logic and pound on" as if I was the one pounding he was only responding. This is why I went back and deleted my early posts from that thread. Now I feel those who have left did the right thing, but I am not leaving without telling these Johny come latelies how vile they are and that their ganging up like a pack of wolves has caused real damage to the vibrancy of the forum.

I am not going to stay silent any more. If people think I am getting unhinged, I ask them, what did you do stop these persistent and never ending attacks? Silence at some point becomes complicity. I will try my best to stay within the rules, but from now on I am not letting a single arrow go unanswered from my side, this includes Renuka, the one who wanted to gun down atheists.

So here Raghy, you have it. Reign in these reprehensible bullies and we will have peace and quite again.

Cheers!

 

[praveen]

Guys,

I am here in the middle of the night, from a cybercafe, to check on how things are and its same stuff all over again...

dont you all get tired of this??? fighting tooth and nail... dragging things from the past and raining accusations on one another!

And when a moderator steps in, all of you team up and have a go at him!!

Give us a break! This thread is closed.

FYI, my internet connection is out till monday/tuesday and until then i am not here. Atleast when i come back, let sanity prevail.