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Children born of live-in relationships are legitimate, Supreme Court says

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Children born of live-in relationships are legitimate, Supreme Court says



NEW DELHI: Giving an important clarification on live-in relationships, the Supreme Court has said that if a man and woman "lived like husband and wife" for a long period and had children, the judiciary would presume that the two were married.

A bench of Justices B S Chauhan and J Chelameswar on Monday issued the clarification on a petition filed by advocate Uday Gupta, who had questioned certain sweeping observations made by the Madras high court while dealing with the issue of live-in relationships. Importantly, the SC said children born out of prolonged live-in relationships could not be termed illegitimate.

Gupta had challenged the HC's observation that "a valid marriage does not necessarily mean that all the customary rights pertaining to the married couple are to be followed and subsequently solemnized".

His counsel, M R Calla, sought deletion of the HC's observations terming them as untenable in law. He apprehended that these remarks could demolish the very institution of marriage.

The bench went through the judgment and said the HC's observations could not be construed as a precedent for other cases and would be confined to the case in which these were made.

Justices Chauhan and Chelameswar said,"In fact, what the HC wanted to say is that if a man and woman are living together for a long time as husband and wife, though never married, there would a presumption of marriage and their children could not be called illegitimate."

In 2010, the apex court had in Madan Mohan Singh vs Rajni Kant case said, "The courts have consistently held that the law presumes in favour of marriage and against concubinage, when a man and woman have cohabited continuously for a number of years. However, such presumption can be rebutted by leading unimpeachable evidence."

The same year, the court had in another judgment hinted at the legitimacy of children born out of such relations. "It is evident that Section 16 of the Hindu Marriage Act intends to bring about social reforms, conferment of social status of legitimacy on a group of children, otherwise treated as illegitimate, as its prime object."

Section 16 of Hindu Mariage Act provides,"Notwithstanding that a marriage is null and void under Section 11, any child of such marriage who would have been legitimate if the marriage had been valid, shall be legitimate, whether such a child is born before or after the commencement of the Marriage Laws (Amendment) Act, 1976, and whether or not a decree of nullity is granted in respect of the marriage under this Act and whether or not the marriage is held to be void otherwise than on a petition under this Act."



Children born of live-in relationships are legitimate, Supreme Court says - The Times of India
 
Children born of live-in relationships are legitimate, Supreme Court says



NEW DELHI: Giving an important clarification on live-in relationships, the Supreme Court has said that if a man and woman "lived like husband and wife" for a long period and had children, the judiciary would presume that the two were married.

A bench of Justices B S Chauhan and J Chelameswar on Monday issued the clarification on a petition filed by advocate Uday Gupta, who had questioned certain sweeping observations made by the Madras high court while dealing with the issue of live-in relationships. Importantly, the SC said children born out of prolonged live-in relationships could not be termed illegitimate.

Gupta had challenged the HC's observation that "a valid marriage does not necessarily mean that all the customary rights pertaining to the married couple are to be followed and subsequently solemnized".

His counsel, M R Calla, sought deletion of the HC's observations terming them as untenable in law. He apprehended that these remarks could demolish the very institution of marriage.

The bench went through the judgment and said the HC's observations could not be construed as a precedent for other cases and would be confined to the case in which these were made.

Justices Chauhan and Chelameswar said,"In fact, what the HC wanted to say is that if a man and woman are living together for a long time as husband and wife, though never married, there would a presumption of marriage and their children could not be called illegitimate."

In 2010, the apex court had in Madan Mohan Singh vs Rajni Kant case said, "The courts have consistently held that the law presumes in favour of marriage and against concubinage, when a man and woman have cohabited continuously for a number of years. However, such presumption can be rebutted by leading unimpeachable evidence."

The same year, the court had in another judgment hinted at the legitimacy of children born out of such relations. "It is evident that Section 16 of the Hindu Marriage Act intends to bring about social reforms, conferment of social status of legitimacy on a group of children, otherwise treated as illegitimate, as its prime object."

Section 16 of Hindu Mariage Act provides,"Notwithstanding that a marriage is null and void under Section 11, any child of such marriage who would have been legitimate if the marriage had been valid, shall be legitimate, whether such a child is born before or after the commencement of the Marriage Laws (Amendment) Act, 1976, and whether or not a decree of nullity is granted in respect of the marriage under this Act and whether or not the marriage is held to be void otherwise than on a petition under this Act."



Children born of live-in relationships are legitimate, Supreme Court says - The Times of India
conferment of legimitacy on children born out of live in relationship , may be considered a positive step .

however the fear that it might demolish the institution of marriage might be well founded.

in more liberal societies in the west , due to women also enjoying economic independance , live in relationships have become very common and marriage is taking a back seat.

is it good for societys good ?

. In india it is confined only to metro cities such as bombay . still most live ins tend to legitimise it sooner than later with marriage as soon as the child is born.

sometimes fear of family disapproval leads to such relationships in young people .some lead to breakups eventually due to inability of these couple to cope with family pressures.families move in as soon as they come to know of it and push them into conventional path.
 
Krish Sir


The present trend of ******* Boys are not getting any girl to marry, this might be an an alternate solution to choose a Girl to their liking (fearing protest from parents) and live the life.

When the situation improves they might go for marriage of the chosen girl..
 
no problem if the live in couple get the documentation right filling father's and mother's name while getting a birth certificate. else it will lead to a long and tedious court battle when the couple fall out or property sharing becomes an issue. it may become necessary to go for dna tests to prove legitimacy. if your children, my children and our children, all born of mixed live in and marriage relationships fight for shares, new laws may have to be put in place.
 
Good...cos all children are born the same way..thru sexual union.

No one is born via immaculate conception...so why have the out of the wed lock tag for a child born from unmarried parents?

After all a life is a life and a life is sacred.
 
Krish Sir


The present trend of ******* Boys are not getting any girl to marry, this might be an an alternate solution to choose a Girl to their liking (fearing protest from parents) and live the life.

When the situation improves they might go for marriage of the chosen girl..
I have a guju friend who got into one such relationship some 40 years back . he had to wait for

five years to get family legitamacy . he got married with family approval with a three year old kid

sitting between the couple during the wedding. He proudly showed me the photo and said thank

god , my child will not be considered illegitimate . You know how indian society was so long back

.the girls mother when she came to know of the relationship blessed her daughter quietly and

stayed away when she realised her daughter was pregnant . only a kindly neighbour -a punjabi

sikh couple helped him thru the crisis and helped in delivery of his child
.
now times have changed . I met my sons colleague who was in such a relationship and living

together for couple of years . The parents of the boy came to visit him recently and get his sons

marriage legitamised with a wedding . still girls parents disowned her and did not turn up. My son

attended their registration wedding and reception later with my blessings

TB boys are not courageous and enterprising. They are still Ammas boys .they will wait until forty so that their mothers can collect their dues spent on the boys education and after seeing castes and subcastes ,horosccopes , collect their Kg of jewellery.if some girls parents give that
 
Brahmin guys are not love/marriage material.

This is the opinion of a Brahmin Girl!!




Brahmin guys are not love/marriage material.

i am a brahmin girl. you brahmin guys might not realise it, but brahmin guys are not love/marriage material. i dont blame just you guys – the current social setup is also a reason.

most of my friends (brahmin girls) DONT want to marry a brahmin boy. even i am like that. the reasons? read below:

Here starts the fun part!!!

1) in the current, very competitive setup, brahmin guys – from childhood – have been programmed to take advantage of ANYTHING and everything that comes their way – to the point they will not be even be good friends. this might earn you a good job and a arranged marriage bride in later years. but dont expect a girl to like you after they know about you (and brahmin girls are no exception).


I really thought that was supposed to be good thing. Dear friend, This is a dog eat dog world. If you are not an opportunist, you will be a loser. Whether such people will have friends is a different equation. That would really depend on how friendly they are, how much they care about others. One can be an opportunist and still be ethical.

2) by the time a brahmin guys is settled in his life he is almost 30 or after 30. almost all have bald heads when they get married. most young brahmin girls find other attractive guys by this time.

That was a trend 10 years ago. And that was because any person in those days would take that many years to settle down in life. This may not sound right to you at your age. But, being settled in life is very important for a guy to lead a happy life with a girl. Otherwise, their beginning years of marriage would be spent in worries and trying to tackle everyday’s problems instead of being together and affectionate.

Today, almost all brahmin guys I know get married pretty early. Today, almost any guy out with a decent college background is able to earn a decent salary. He can apply for loans and all that. Financially, today a guy can plan his marriage much before than guys 10 years ago. So, this is only a question of changing times. Not related to Brahmins!!!

3) the western influence (thank god!) is making parents realise that love is important for their girl children also. so many parents today are open to a good educated son-in-law from other castes.


You are basically wrong and prejudiced that all brahmin guys don’t know the first thing about love
39.gif
. You may have come across a few in your life time. But, do not generalize based on those few select cases. One question – If your dad a brahmin? If he is… does your theory apply to him as well?

4) in my college, and in my class, you can see that the brahmin guys are the puniest, cunning fellows – i am sorry to say this. but thats the reality. you can say whatever – but a girl wants a man who can protect her financially and PHYSICALLY. physical charms like well built body, broad chest and strong shoulders give us that impression. while i can point out many good looking, normal guys who are funny, willing to share from other castes, i dont see ONE brahmin boy in my college like that. there is only one love story that involves a brahmin guy – he is super rich, btw.


"Brahmin guys are not love/marriage material", Says Brahmin girl | Rising Sun
 
Post #7 above prompted me to spend some time reading all the materials posted at the website link provided by PJ.

I am quoting (what to me is an impressive response (numbered #641 in that website) from a muslim woman married to an Iyengar boy.
If you click on the following link, it should take you direct to the response #641.

"Brahmin guys are not love/marriage material", Says Brahmin girl | Rising Sun

Hi to all!,

I am Reyhana. I am a muslim woman married to a Hindu Brahmin Iyengar man, who is very much an affectionate and loving and caring person.

Myself being from another religion, I accepted and adopted myself and eventually converted myself to the Hindu religion, because of its heritage. I do not find any difference in religions with their rites and rituals and practices.

Just got married two years back and ours is a love marriage and the marriage life is going on smooth as usual. Currently i am a mother of 2 children and both of them are baby boys. I am very happy about that.

When i got married, there was disagreement on both sides with respect to my religion and my husband’s religion and community, myself being a nonvegetarian and my hubby being a vegetarian. It was sheer determination which has brought us together till this point and I am quite confident that this will continue and I will not have much problems to face. Even I would welcome if my is going on for a second marriage.

In my husband’s family, I was given a great welcome by my in-laws and now I am one among them, with myself learning and observing all the rites and rituals, which a normal brahmin iyengar family does.

In my family, being a Muslim we were not so attached to the religion, but we were observing Muslims. There was no objection on my family’s side for my marriage and the same was on my husband’s family and infact we are 8 years apart in age difference. But it was LOVE, which I had for my husband more than his to me. I love my husband very much to the deepest of my heart and soul. He is very much a lovable and affectionate person for me and even if death take me.

Such is the metaphor of our family life and I would do anything for my husband and I adore my in-laws as well as my kids.

Coming to the point, it is the Brahmin girls who are much money minded and career minded and that they are not having any ideation with regards to family orientation and they lack the factors of love, care and affection. Better they do learn the prospect of family orientation more than earning money in lakhs and crores. Earning money in lakhs and crores is just a sham and rubbish.

Just by earning lots of money and having a higher qualification does not mean that the person is on a higher pedestal. It means that they are on the path of destruction. The very higher they go then it will be very chilling and even much spine chilling.

Being an ordinary person with not much expectation is not just a simple thing, but it involves more of understanding and acceptance and being more of a giver than a taker, where one has to learn the art of understanding and forgiving.

So it would be better if the Brahmin girls understand that their time is running out and that it won’t take much longer time for non-vegetarians and people of other religions to change to the cultural orientations of the Brahmins and we will occupy the seats much faster or even more faster than all the Brahmin girls.

The competition starts from now on.


Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reyhana
 
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dear naina ji
very interesting post

It is quite clear that some enlightened muslim girls are ready to enter into a marriage relationship with TBs

The family bonds are more tight in muslim families . still many muslim families are joint ones and are large . they have not become nuclear .

they are conservative and value inter personl relationships

besides they are a bit lower in social and economic scale as compared to majority community

since our conservative brahmin society is patriarchal and men would like matches who are not

highly educated and earning just enough and not too much besides being ready to put up with

eighties mindset putting up with inlaws on their terms and playing a subordinate role to

husbands in family framework ,these girls can fit in nicely .

they can adore their ordinary husbands and love them and find reciprocity .would not be surprised if such matches are hits.

money and high earning career women may not necessarily give happiness . simple lower

middle class women from lower economic strata might do so even sacrificing their food habits

and changing their religion and adopting customs and rituals of brahmin community.

why should brahmin boys not have them as wives
 
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Why not, indeed!
naina ji
This is better than PJ sir suggestion for TB boys to get into live in relationship with girls of their choice and try legitimising later , leading to lot of

ill will in families.and break ups.

there are issues with islamic law .according to their law ,marriage is a contract the rules of which stipulate that man support the lady with the understanding that he will pay mehr [ a certain prespecified money] in the event of termination which is fairly easy . however in our custom it is is for lifetime -it really gives security to ladies entering into relationship .perhaps the muslim ladies might find this attractive.
besides brahmins have sattvika docile behaviour. they may be subject to less domestic violence.
 
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pj sir
points made -TB boys are competitive ,career oriented ,-which makes them selfish ,oppertunist,they settle only after 30 yrs when they are bald

,unattractive, they are puny ,cunning and cannot protect ladies physically.

girls would prefer good son in law from other castes which parents may not mind.

why have these boys fallen so low in estimation of TB girls?

It has got something to do with the way they have been brought up

most of them are put into a punishng schedule in an education system and are pushed to out perform from age three

they become career oriented and exclude everything else . marks ,grades and lakhs in salary in jobs alone are the objectives in life

at late age of thirty when they marry , they are only cold ugly elements which no girl would want .

they do not marry for desire . they think of how much wealth will be added by the girl being offered .they are in the money ,career spiral . nothing else matters. simple emotions like love have no meaning .

I pity these guys .

as early as possible they should take what they can get and run away from the oppression of TB families of ambitious fathers and pushy hard

driving mothers to find simple happiness in ordinary girls wherever they are available forgetting caste ,creed ,religion
 
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The judgement does not apply in all cases and is case specific.
"The bench went through the judgment and said the HC's observations could not be construed as a precedent for other cases and would be confined to the case in which these were made."

Otherwise a new law has to be passed called 'naturalised marriage' similar to 'naturalised citizen' - like if the live in couple identify themselves as husband/wife, father/mother in all documents - school admission, ration card etc. - which do not ask for proof of marriage.

My marriage was never registered and had to give an affidavit for passport and visa. Nowadays immediately after the ceremony, the couple and witnesses are driven straight to the registration office.
 
pj sir
points made -TB boys are competitive ,career oriented ,-which makes them selfish ,oppertunist,they settle only after 30 yrs when they are bald

,unattractive, they are puny ,cunning and cannot protect ladies physically.

girls would prefer good son in law from other castes which parents may not mind.

why have these boys fallen so low in estimation of TB girls?

It has got something to do with the way they have been brought up

most of them are put into a punishng schedule in an education system and are pushed to out perform from age three

they become career oriented and exclude everything else . marks ,grades and lakhs in salary in jobs alone are the objectives in life

at late age of thirty when they marry , they are only cold ugly elements which no girl would want .

they do not marry for desire . they think of how much wealth will be added by the girl being offered .they are in the money ,career spiral . nothing else matters. simple emotions like love have no meaning .

I pity these guys .

as early as possible they should take what they can get and run away from the oppression of TB families of ambitious fathers and pushy hard

driving mothers to find simple happiness in ordinary girls wherever they are available forgetting caste ,creed ,religion


Krish ji,

I studied in India...I did not see any much difference between TB guys and other guys from the South.

You are making it sound as if TB guys are all puny and wimps and the other caste guys are all Greek Gods!LOL

Over all there is not much difference in body structure for most south indian males..only may be some non brahmin tamilians tend to be quite tall..occasionally we can find some muscular guy..but the average south indian male is around the same height as an average Bengali male.

BTW what is there to protect so much? My husband is 6 feet tall and well builtl..his brother is 6 feet 2 inches and both of them do not have to beat anyone up to protect anyone!LOL
My son is 14 years old and already 5 feet 8 inches tall..he also does not have to beat up anyone!

So what is it all these girls want that guy should hit others? Isnt that a violent male?

Educated males of all caste use their brains instead of brawn....so I dont think its anything to do with body..physique etc..people just fall in love...its just exposure to everyone..those days no one mixed so freely..see how we all interact in forum? Imagine if any of our ancestors from Pitr Loka logs into forum and they will think 'aiyoo Rama..how come all men and women are interacting like friends?"

So since times has changed..people fall in love cos there are less restrictions and more interaction..thats all.
 
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PJ Sir,

This article was quoted in one of our own threads 3-4 years back..This article is fake and has been written by someone outside the community & religion..Person may be a Paki

Irrespective of that it is good to debate about the main thread

Many of TB boys may not go for live ins it as it is against the grain..They are getting over aged and are not selecting their partners..The reason being that they are utopian and are not ready to compromise their needs..It is better that they realize this faster

Two marriages in our family in the last 1 week..Both B 2 B...There was give & take..Some compromises...Better late than never!
 
Krish ji,

I studied in India...I did not see any much difference between TB guys and other guys from the South.

You are making it sound as if TB guys are all puny and wimps and the other caste guys are all Greek Gods!LOL

Over all there is not much difference in body structure for most south indian males..only may be some non brahmin tamilians tend to be quite tall..occasionally we can find some muscular guy..but the average south indian male is around the same height as an average Bengali male.

BTW what is there to protect so much? My husband is 6 feet tall and well builtl..his brother is 6 feet 2 inches and both of them do not have to beat anyone up to protect anyone!LOL
My son is 14 years old and already 5 feet 8 inches tall..he also does not have to beat up anyone!

So what is it all these girls want that guy should hit others? Isnt that a violent male?

Educated males of all caste use their brains instead of brawn....so I dont think its anything to do with body..physique etc..people just fall in love...its just exposure to everyone..those days no one mixed so freely..see how we all interact in forum? Imagine if any of our ancestors from Pitr Loka logs into forum and they will think 'aiyoo Rama..how come all men and women are interacting like friends?"

So since times has changed..people fall in love cos there are less restrictions and more interaction..thats all.
I only summarised in first two lines what a brahmin girl had posted about TB boys

need for protection comes due to bad and lewd comments made by some elements in india about ladies. it is security issue getting reflected

somehow well built stands for strength. only a tough guy can confront lumpen elements.

all this love business is nothing more than physical attraction . in most cases it is convenient love taking into account suitability for each other

from the point of view of background , edu ,financial status and interests of both parties. love vanishes the minute these do not match .

most girls and boys are on the lookout for suitable partners based on their own preferances since parents have their own interests and do not

allow matches not meeting their own selfish needs in addition to their child. they keep hunting until the child takes the job into own hands and

scoot off with the remaining good junk still available overlooking caste ,sub caste ,horoscope issues. theyfeel any decent male with edu, job

would do ,to hell with brahminism
 
PJ Sir,

This article was quoted in one of our own threads 3-4 years back..This article is fake and has been written by someone outside the community & religion..Person may be a Paki

Irrespective of that it is good to debate about the main thread

Many of TB boys may not go for live ins it as it is against the grain..They are getting over aged and are not selecting their partners..The reason being that they are utopian and are not ready to compromise their needs..It is better that they realize this faster

Two marriages in our family in the last 1 week..Both B 2 B...There was give & take..Some compromises...Better late than never!
you are absolutely correct vgane ji

TB boys are not live in material. they are basically cowards . they would not like to defy the rules. and make their own choices.

families both boys and girls realise that their specification for suitable matches are unrealistic.

parents do not relax on them since they feel it is in their interest to delay and boys side should not compromise . they hold on to them until the

boys grow old. even girls , if they are working earning a decent salary , they also put up stiff terms encouraged by parents who would like the delay as they want their money for marriage and would not want their savings to be depleted .

then a time comes , some wise think it is time for compromise and give and take and finalise from the available lot at that time.

I have seen in my own family ,in three cases , they got married to people what they had rejected earlier -both boys and girls . only they lost a few years

of their life looking for a non existent manmadan/rathi
 
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you are absolutely correct vgane ji

TB boys are not live in material. they are basically cowards . they would not like to defy the rules. and make their own choices.

families both boys and girls realise that their specification for suitable matches are unrealistic.

parents do not relax on them since they feel it is in their interest to delay and boys side should not compromise . they hold on to them until the

boys grow old. even girls , if they are working earning a decent salary , they also put up stiff terms encouraged by parents who would like the delay as they want their money for marriage and would not want their savings to be depleted .

then a time comes , some wise think it is time for compromise and give and take and finalise from the available lot at that time.

I have seen in my own family ,in three cases , they got married to people what they had rejected earlier -both boys and girls . only they lost a few years

of their life looking for a non existent manmadan/rathi

Krishji,

I second that!

There should be a cut off so that they do not loose even the ones that they had initially marked as inferior!

I remember families that are searching for suitable varans for years, may be even 4-5 years!

Suggestion is to close the deal within a year, max!
 
Krishji,

I second that!

There should be a cut off so that they do not loose even the ones that they had initially marked as inferior!

I remember families that are searching for suitable varans for years, may be even 4-5 years!

Suggestion is to close the deal within a year, max!
we can have a system of tatkal like railways in matrimonial sites to cater to the desperates and over the hill cases .


many register as unpaid members only to see what is available and would not respond at all .

these profile are there year after year . you will see dozens of girls /retd parents online simply surfing the profiles looking for the elusive match
.
for boys it is the nearest thing to sight adikkaradhu online

traffic is heavy late evenings and week ends

seeing all this , matches where children taking matter in their own hands and deciding are better

off .

when will change come .
 
BTW as far as I know the TB maama stories I have heard direct from a TB's mouth is entirely different...that is many quietly have relationships with girls from other communities but marry the girls their mother chooses..basically the average Indian male of any caste plays along this line too..that is have some fling before marriage with anyone but marry who Amma chooses!LOL

So I dont think all TB males are "Onnum Theriyatha Ambis!"LOL
 
BTW as far as I know the TB maama stories I have heard direct from a TB's mouth is entirely different...that is many quietly have relationships with girls from other communities but marry the girls their mother chooses..basically the average Indian male of any caste plays along this line too..that is have some fling before marriage with anyone but marry who Amma chooses!
So I dont think all TB males are "Onnum Theriyatha Ambis!"LOL
some TBs stray They are not many who manage to get their ammas approval for the match if they want to marry . instead of sticking to their guns , they succumb and say that want to remain good friends . some even fear to tell their mother and quietly hang the relationship . some brave ones go ahead and go to registrars office and end up disowned atleast temporarily by the family . Tb boys are like eels , they are very slippery . they are not like rajputs . jaan jaaye ,vachan na jaaye-translation we will give up our lives but keep our word. so girls have to be wary of dealing with them
 
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hi
brahmin boys prefer B2B....not B 2 C......the fundamental treatment and parvarish of brahmin boys and gals are different....so

now brahmin gals are VERY BOLD AND AGRASIVE NOW ....
 
The change in the attitude and approach among our guys and girls in recent years are a welcome feature. It is because of Globalization which gave them a windows of opportunity towards exposure of sophisticated and a luxurious way of life. The theory of emancipation of women applied here because of exposure of their higher education that made the girls to shackle the clutches that restricted them in the name of hereditary, tradition, culture and customs in order to breath the fresh air of freedom. In a way, their independency given them strength to lead a life of their choice and the children born out of live-in should be treated as legitimate children in the society. It is high time to the elders to give them way which would pave way for a intellectual society. Why not?
 
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The change in the attitude and approach among our guys and girls in recent years are a welcome feature. ........... It is high time to the elders to give them way which would pave way for a intellectual society. Why not?
Dear Sir,

I did not expect this post from you! :sad:
 
Dear Sir,

I did not expect this post from you! :sad:

Madam,

Extremely sorry for my above posting since I have no other option except to swim along the flow of water reluctantly. I cannot vent my inner feelings here. Sorry, Sorry!!
 
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