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Changing Times: Will Gay Marriage Be Legal in India?

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sravna said:
Very disconcerting that there has not been a single dissenting voice against gay marriages that too amongst a community known for strong traditional values. It is very funny that in the name of freedom from inhibitions, people are only shackling themselves more. All these forbidden things which were forbidden for good reasons in my view have terrible long term consequences.

One is not really exercising his freedom but only giving free vent to his perversions. Here people are not able to control their errant and deviant thoughts and call themselves free thinkers. Very funny indeed!
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Sravna,

You know its easy for us to say someone is wrong or have perversions but may be you have not had direct dealing with members of the gay community.
There are very much human like anyone of us as I have dealt with many in my day to day practise and I make it a point to be extra nice to them becos not many docs think like me.Many docs treat them with disrespect.

There was once a Transgender male gay patient who looked very much like a female and the surgeon in the department used to be so rude to him like asking him "are you male or female..you should be in the female ward or male ward"
even nurses were rude to him and he was dying of HIV.
I was the only one who used to be nice to him and he told me his story of how he ended up being a male prostitute cos society shunned him.

He used to ask us to buy food for him and no one did becos he was gay and i used to buy for him daily and i still remember him touching my feet and crying one day as a gesture of thanks and told me no one showed him love before.
He was a muslim and he started praying again without fail in the ward and passed away peacefully.

Gays are not perverts,they in fact have more sensitive natures and I have seen the kind hearts they have.
They are born that way.They didnt chose to be that way.
There are some studies done to that show that a when a mother is expecting a male child and if there is a sudden surge of maternal female hormones it does have an effect on the developing male fetus hypothalamus and may be altering its sexual orientation too in that process.

Sometimes when we hold on to tight to values we tend to be judgemental.
I feel if a person is gay we have to still give him/her the due respect as a human being but may be for me I feel they can just live togather without marriage.
 
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Shri Kunjuppu,

As you seem to implicitly agree with me by saying that one does not want such things to happen to one's family member, you are for normal relationship too. I am not against anything out of normal. The golden rule I use in evaluating whether a thought is harmful or even self destructive is: Can I control it at will? In that way even normal sex is harmful if you are overwhelmed by it.

The fact that homosexuality is not the predominant sexual preference among humans itself indicates that even nature is trying to exercise its control over it. That such instances along with other out of norm behaviors are increasing only points out that people are becoming more overconfident about their ability to go against the religion which I call as words of wisdom. Time knows best as time is the best teacher.
 
Sri Kunjuppu. Renuka,

I agree that one is born gay. They very much need to be treated kindly. I totally agree with both of you on that. But let us just show the sympathy to the person. If people are prone to be homosexual let them be. But let us desist from promoting it by saying it is normal or natural.
 
sravana,

re your post #27

my error.

i did not mean any 'implicit agreement' with you. i read your #24 as outright condemnation, which is reinforced in your post #27.

i prefer to think of myself as not to be judgemental. it is because i believe, that one is born gay, and that is their nature. just because the majority of humans are heterosexual, does not necessariily mean, that we have be roughshod over the gays and condemn them.

re if my family member happens to be gay, i think i will accept it and ensure that the member is given enough support. in this world where many people think much alike you, life must be tough for the gays, as it is. it is these times, when family and friends pull their weight and show true support.

for if this does not happen, the gay relation is abandoned. our love to our loved ones becomes 'conditional'. to me atleast, that is not 'true love'.
 
Dear Renuka,

I have few doubts. Hope you can clarify..

Whether one is a transgendre, gay or lesbian, many of us don't taunt them, dont simply hate them, don't consider them as evils of society and just let them live their life. We also pay transgenders when they ask for money.

My doubt regarding legalization of Gay Marrige is -

1) Is there anything meaningful in Hetreosexual Marriege, that to be celebrated and accepted/realized as the natural order of living and considered leagalized? If Yes, should gays and lesbians must to be validated as married couples, similar to the former?
2) What can be acheived bey declaring a gay marriege and legalizing them?
3) Is there any law in common that prosecutes gays and lesbians, and to escape such litigations, legalization is must?
4) If two men or two women are staying togehter in one house, they may be just friends or may be guys/lesbians. Will we be knowing? Will that be any matter of our concern?
5) Even if it's been legalized, is there any certainity that the society in total would hold them in high regard?
6) So what can be the true merit of such lagalizations?

I feel, it's not about being judgemental of any one's sexual oriantation. But a question as why such leaglization and publicity is required, as the must?
 
dear ravi,

please read my post #4 in this thread.

there can be a lot of money involved, including inheritance rights, which 'spousehood' entitles.

i think apart from declaring legitimacy of the relationship, money too is a key factor.
 
kunjuppu said:
dear ravi,

please read my post #4 in this thread.

there can be a lot of money involved, including inheritance rights, which 'spousehood' entitles.

i think apart from declaring legitimacy of the relationship, money too is a key factor.
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Sri Kunjuppu,

True...For inheritance/money and benefits, legalization is must. As you said the guy/lesbian pairs need to secure their partnership benefits and monetary relief.
 
There is one reason I don't buy the theory that just because people are born something, there is nothing that can be done about it. This is where I think the society or the external or the environmental factor comes in. As I said it is for good reasons that deviant tendencies were kept under check so that they do not catch on. The problem that such and other efforts backfire is because society often does a overkill because of many unjudicious elements in it. The big picture often tends to be lost. So one way or the other, there is always room for reform. Now it seems to me the pendulum is swinging in the side of "free thinking" and it will come back to the other side sooner or later.
 
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sravna said:
.... All these forbidden things which were forbidden for good reasons in my view have terrible long term consequences.
Click to expand...
sravna, I suspect you are talking about homosexuality in general, not just Gay marriage in particular. Could you please provide reference from some smrithi or some other religious text? I really would like to know. Bible has explicit statements against homosexuality, I would like to know whether any of the Brahmnical texts have such overt prohibition.

Cheers!
 
C RAVI said:
Dear Renuka,

I have few doubts. Hope you can clarify..

Whether one is a transgendre, gay or lesbian, many of us don't taunt them, dont simply hate them, don't consider them as evils of society and just let them live their life. We also pay transgenders when they ask for money.

My doubt regarding legalization of Gay Marrige is -

1) Is there anything meaningful in Hetreosexual Marriege, that to be celebrated and accepted/realized as the natural order of living and considered leagalized? If Yes, should gays and lesbians must to be validated as married couples, similar to the former?
2) What can be acheived bey declaring a gay marriege and legalizing them?
3) Is there any law in common that prosecutes gays and lesbians, and to escape such litigations, legalization is must?
4) If two men or two women are staying togehter in one house, they may be just friends or may be guys/lesbians. Will we be knowing? Will that be any matter of our concern?
5) Even if it's been legalized, is there any certainity that the society in total would hold them in high regard?
6) So what can be the true merit of such lagalizations?

I feel, it's not about being judgemental of any one's sexual oriantation. But a question as why such leaglization and publicity is required, as the must?
Click to expand...

Aiyoo Ravi,

Have you even read my posts here so far..I had stated clearly that I have no problems with people being gay but I am not in favor for legalizing gay marriage to which Kunjuppu had explained to me reasons for the marriage legalization.

Ravi you seem to be clicking Like for everything anyone writes here which side are you on?
For gay marriage or not for gay marriage?
 
C RAVI said:
Dear Renuka,

I have few doubts. Hope you can clarify..

Whether one is a transgendre, gay or lesbian, many of us don't taunt them, dont simply hate them, don't consider them as evils of society and just let them live their life. We also pay transgenders when they ask for money.

My doubt regarding legalization of Gay Marrige is -

1) Is there anything meaningful in Hetreosexual Marriege, that to be celebrated and accepted/realized as the natural order of living and considered leagalized? If Yes, should gays and lesbians must to be validated as married couples, similar to the former?
2) What can be acheived bey declaring a gay marriege and legalizing them?
3) Is there any law in common that prosecutes gays and lesbians, and to escape such litigations, legalization is must?
4) If two men or two women are staying togehter in one house, they may be just friends or may be guys/lesbians. Will we be knowing? Will that be any matter of our concern?
5) Even if it's been legalized, is there any certainity that the society in total would hold them in high regard?
6) So what can be the true merit of such lagalizations?

I feel, it's not about being judgemental of any one's sexual oriantation. But a question as why such leaglization and publicity is required, as the must?
Click to expand...

Now I will answer your questions:

1)Yes its meaningful for those concerned if they love each other.The sexual act of gays also mimick what goes on with man and woman.

2)For Q no 2 refer to Kunjuppu's posts.

3)There is no law as far as I know which is sexual orientation biased. (Criminal and Civil Law I mean) If anyone traffics drugs out here Gay or Straight you are hung.

4)What I care who does what in their own house Straight or Gay.
Some straight guy could be surfing porn and some gay guy could be doing his Sandhyavandanam.

5)Do we really care what the world thinks of us? Even if society thinks highly of us when we die I can bet no one is going to jump into our funeral pyre.So we can safely show the 3rd digit to society.

6)Merit or Demerit? We are not meant to judge anyone.We dont maintain the Karmic cycle.
 
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Nara said:
sravna, I suspect you are talking about homosexuality in general, not just Gay marriage in particular. Could you please provide reference from some smrithi or some other religious text? I really would like to know. Bible has explicit statements against homosexuality, I would like to know whether any of the Brahmnical texts have such overt prohibition.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Shri Nara,

I said that homosexuality was forbidden not based on brahminical texts but at least that is how it was or even is. Even if it is not forbidden it is/was? frowned upon. Anyway I got this reference for your question:

"Homosexuality is also a complex matter in Hinduism because of the many types of religious life. In general, "twice-born" Hindus are prohibited from homosexual acts (maithunam pumsi), such as in Manusmrti 11:174, which mentions both men and women."
 
sravna said:
.. In general, "twice-born" Hindus are prohibited from homosexual acts (maithunam pumsi), such as in Manusmrti 11:174, which mentions both men and women."
Click to expand...
Thanks Sravna for the reference. I looked it up, the verse # is 175 and here it is from Sacred-Texts site:

175. A twice-born man who commits an unnatural offence with a male, or has intercourse with a female in a cart drawn by oxen, in water, or in the day-time, shall bathe, dressed in his clothes.

​

First, this applies only to twice-born man. Further, it does not prohibit the act itself, only that the man should bathe dressed in his clothes.

Sravna, here are the facts -- (i) the act is mentioned, (ii) it is not prohibited, and (iii) a very easy remedy is prescribed if a twice-born man engages in this act. Taking these facts together I suspect even the great Manu the Law Giver was not that concerned about homosexual acts like you seem to be.

BTW, Sravna, marriage is not about sex, it is about sharing life, Gay or Straight.

Cheers!
 
Shri Nara,

It is prohibited for twice-born Hindus.

"In general, "twice-born" Hindus are prohibited from homosexual acts ..."

The fact that there is punishment only reinforces this view
 
sravna said:
Shri Nara,

It is prohibited for twice-born Hindus.

"In general, "twice-born" Hindus are prohibited from homosexual acts ..."

The fact that there is punishment only reinforces this view
Click to expand...
Sravna, Manu does not mince words when it comes to punishment. To take bath with clothes on is no punishment, to say it is, is laughable.

Cheers!
 
ShivKC said:
while i support for legalizing gay civil union in india, i wish polyandry and polygamy also should be legalised.

it cannot be argued, true love doesn't exist in polygamy.
Click to expand...
You do not want legal approval for practicing anything in India. In fact the 'Manaivi' and 'Thunaivi' will all have legal entitlements arranged in a typical family contracts. If marriages legally are for sharing the wealth then the same law should share and give the prison terms to Manaivi and Thunaivi in case the Kalaingnar is destined to Tihar!! But as sage Vaalmiki has been enlightened by rishis - nobody is going to share the sins. The greatest sin the mankind does by gay and lesbian behaviors is that it is defying the fundamental purpose of one's creation - viz to reproduce and create the next generation. Let TBs indulge in straight marriages and strengthen themselves numerically in every part of the globe
 
Why "Gay Marriage" Is Wrong

Some extracts from the whole article -

In this connection, too, it is interesting that homosexual men, even those who bear effeminate traits, usually desire very “masculine” men as their sex partners. Why? Undoubtedly many desire what they see as lacking in themselves: a strong masculine quality. Such a desire is really a form of self-delusion. They are already men, already masculine. They are masculine by virtue of their sex, not by virtue of possessing a social construct of masculinity that may or may not reflect true masculinity. They need not seek completion in a sexual same. Rather, they must come to terms with their essential masculinity.


In this connection, too, it is interesting that homosexual men, even those who bear effeminate traits, usually desire very “masculine” men as their sex partners. Why? Undoubtedly many desire what they see as lacking in themselves: a strong masculine quality. Such a desire is really a form of self-delusion. They are already men, already masculine. They are masculine by virtue of their sex, not by virtue of possessing a social construct of masculinity that may or may not reflect true masculinity. They need not seek completion in a sexual same. Rather, they must come to terms with their essential masculinity.


Moreover, a 2004 study of divorce rates for same-sex registered partnerships in Sweden from 1995 to 2002 indicates that, compared to opposite-sex married couples, male homosexual couples were 1.5 times more likely to divorce and female homosexual couples 3 times more likely. As time passes and it becomes possible to inquire about same-sex registered partnerships of more than one-to-seven-years’ duration, we should see even larger differences between heterosexual and homosexual unions.

Conclusion

In sum, why is “gay marriage” wrong? Most importantly, the idea of “gay marriage” is an oxymoron and a rejection of a core value in Judeo-Christian sexual ethics. Marriage requires the two sexes to reconstitute a sexual whole. By definition same-sex erotic attraction is predicated either on the narcissism of being attracted to what one is as a sexual being or on the delusion that one needs to merge with another of the same sex to complete one’s own sexual deficiencies. Arguing that we should grant marriage status to homosexually inclined persons to avert promiscuity is like insisting that we grant marriage status to adult incestuous or polygamous unions to promote relational longevity. It doesn’t address the main problem with this particular kind of sexual immorality.

But “gay marriage” is also wrong because it will more likely weaken the institution of marriage than moderate the typical excesses of homosexual behavior. The dominant rhetoric of “gay marriage” severs marriage from childbearing and, not surprisingly, leads to more out-of-wedlock births in the population as a whole. The fact that relatively few homosexual couples will get married precludes from the outset any major positive impact on homosexual behavior. Those that do get married will still experience extraordinarily high rates of outside sex partners and divorce, owing to the absence of complementary male-female dynamics. The result will be a further devaluation of monogamy and permanence for the institution of marriage.

Finally, “gay marriage” will bring about the ultimate demise of structural prerequisites for marriage (for example, as regards “plural unions” and adult incest) by making affection the ultimate trump card; increase the incidence of bisexuality and homosexuality in the population and thereby expose more young persons to their negative side-effects for health; and lead to the radical abridgement of the civil and religious liberties of our children, to the point of prosecuting any public expressions of misgivings regarding the active promotion of homosexual practice.

 
Harini said:
You do not want legal approval for practicing anything in India. In fact the 'Manaivi' and 'Thunaivi' will all have legal entitlements arranged in a typical family contracts. If marriages legally are for sharing the wealth then the same law should share and give the prison terms to Manaivi and Thunaivi in case the Kalaingnar is destined to Tihar!! But as sage Vaalmiki has been enlightened by rishis - nobody is going to share the sins. The greatest sin the mankind does by gay and lesbian behaviors is that it is defying the fundamental purpose of one's creation - viz to reproduce and create the next generation. Let TBs indulge in straight marriages and strengthen themselves numerically in every part of the globe
Click to expand...

Hello Harini:

1. I predict that Kalaigner will NOT go to Tihar. This 2G "scandal" etc is just an exercise in vain in the part of the CBI to satisfy some of the Judges in the Supreme Court of India.

Please recall, what happened to CM Jaya, when she was CONVICTED of bribery and abuse of power in 2000 by the Special Judge... the Supremes said, "There is no proof beyond reasonable doubt" and allowed her to walk.

The same thing will happen to A. Raja and Kanimozhi, IMO.

2. Gays and Lesbians can adopt babies and raise them, as they are already doing in many places.

If not, at least Lesbians can CLONE themselves and raise the girls! Do you want to know how? Let me know, I will elaborate the technology already available in Research Labs, and probably being done, as we speak now in the US and Europe!

Harini, this planet has too many people already... Adoption is the best method of relieving some of the stress and strain!

Gays can do it very well!

"MAKE GAY MARRIAGE LEGAL IN INDIA"

When the Maha Bharat showed Polyandry, how come it's not practiced by religious orthodox Hindus in India today?

Cheers.
 
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