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Can you be an atheist and a TamBrahm?

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There are many religions in the world and they usually have a propounder i.e. a person who has started the religion like, Prophet (Islam), Christ (Christianity), Guru Nanak (Sikhism) and many more like Jain, Zarasusthra. But Hinduism does not come into this class as it has no propounder. It has come into existence through time suiting the lives of the people of the land. And many of these religions have been founded on few steadfast rules. ONE who obeys them shall be a part of that relgion. You need to abide by few rules to be it's follower. IF you go against it you are thrown out. One of the steadfast rules in most of the above relgions says that you should definitely believe in a particular person, idol or an icon to be it's follower. It has few axioms. Hence are not debatable.
For exapmle: Islam doesn't allow any atheist nor does it allow any person who believes any person other than Allah. It goes on to say that others are kafirs (vermin), and hence should be eliminated.
Many Hindus though they are Hindus seldom understand the basic concept of Hinduism. It's because many misinterpretations have been surrounding them without any authenticity being regarded. It's also because Hinduism had to undergo little stress facing alien religions which tried to subdue it or completely eliminate it. For it's survival it did undergo few changes momentarily trying to face the chellenge. But it has at the same time allowed many architects to redesign it leading to many a misconception of it's true form.
Hinduism is not founded nor propunded by a single man or a group of people. It has been formulated nor designed in one day or over a lifetime. It grew slowly and gradually through time allowing all the changes and INCORPORATING ALL NEW IDEAS brought in from people pouring down from distant lands.
HINDUISM AS SUCH IS NOT A RELIGION which many do not understand.
Hinduism is just a way of life. It is characterized only by the way of life of it's people. It is open to criticism. NO talk is profane. NO debate is blasphemous. It accepts ideas at all times. It allows changes at all times. It does not dictate terms to people. Any person who lives in Indian sub-continent and thus lives accordingly to it's life style is a HINDU.
We seem to be fascinated by the extreme devotion people show in our country. But we are at the same time concentrating on few principles written by few people who only contributed to the 'religion' in facing the challenge from the alien religions (Alien religions are 'Islam' and 'Christianity'). They are no propounders of 'Hinduism' which has been exisiting for over thousand years.
One may start arguing taking 'Gita' as basic guide. But one doesn't ever notice that never does it mention that you should definitely believe in a god to be a Hindu. It only talks of a supernatural being who shall always be there to guide you, Karma, Moksha etc. It guides a man on how he should live, rather it expounds on an ideal life. But never does it talk of rules to be followed to be a Hindu. It is a big blunder if we start considering 'Gita' as a religious book. It is not similar to 'Bible' or 'Koran'. They are religious books but 'Gita' isn't. as such it is just a part of a big epic 'Mahabharatha'.
We may go on to say that Vedas are our religious books. But again we are wrong. Vedas again expound on life style of the people. Vedas never talk of an atheist nor does it consider an atheist to a heathen or a heretic nor does it outcast any atheist. Vedas only talk of a way of life by which you attain certain higher things in life. It does not at all talk of any God. They have been misinterpreted by so many people through ages that we have a completely different society altogether resulting in a deep-rooted class based society.
ATHEISM IS A SUBCLASS OF HINDUISM. Hinduism does not hold any person to a particular God. You can choose any god as your idol. Hence you can choose no god as your idol. It doesn't ever say that you heve to choose some god definitely. You may take anything as god or nothing as god. But in other religions you do not have any choice. You have to follow a particular idol to belong to that religion.
HINDUISM IS VERY FLEXIBLE. It doesn't set any rules in choosing your god. If you are well off without a god It does not bother you (But people shall). Our people usually correlate it with other religions that have come up - and hence seem to think that fanaticism is the identitiy of being a follower. (Remember - Hinduism never had any holy Wars) Hinduim doesn't expect any fanaticism from it's people, rather it discourages such dogmatism and fanaticism.
For example: Let's talk of the most misinterpreted term in our sub-continent. The concept of 'Brahmin' -- It is defined as ANY person who who performs certain rituals and leads his life in a particular fashion. But never does it mentin that a son of Brahmin is a Brahmin, nor does it say that education should be carried out only by Brahmins. It does not even say that any other person can never become a Brahmin. But it has been changed, distorted so much so that the basic structure suffered a great deal resulting in a completely different picture of Hinduism.
And when do the scriptures talk of Untouchability and Sati.
I just wish to say that on comparing our 'religion' with others, we seem to get the notion that 'Hinduism DOESN'T allow Atheism'. But to get the proper answer one should start with the basic foundation of Hinduism and not get carried away by what people have preached in many ways at various periods to meet the needs of that time.
It sudenly appears ridiculous that our 'religion' doesn't bind one to a god, when so much devotion and so much religious activity is seen, but it is very much true that it is the only 'religion' which allows debate on 'existence of god'. It was the only cult which let people go into the realm of Creator and thus explore into the metaphysics. But of course following the footsteps of other religions even we seem to put a hold on ourselves.
I just wanted to clarify this because the so called 'religious' people of Hinduism seem to beleive that Atheists do not form part of the religion.
 
Just in jest......

If one can have head and kinked thinking (konal Buddhi) from the head is possible, why not an athiest be a tamil brahmin or any brahmin. It is very much possible.

Infact we are seeing many live examples is it not?

malgova.mango
 
I have read the Dawkins The GOD DELUSIONS and find that it actually reflects my thoguhts.I was born a tambrahm myself but now hardly anyone ill call me so!!I am a staunch atheist who believes that all people should be treated equally irrespective of their caste,creed et al.
I was actually very much surprised to see such a topic in a tambrahm community.I wanted to reply to this topic so much that i had no way out but to register.
Still I am astonished to find born tambrahms like me who have a very very positive and modern outlook to their lives!

Atheism-Reality is awesome!!!
 
Can you be an Atheist and a TamBrahm?

Welcome "constantseeker" to "Tamil Brahmins". This is a healthy forum where many learned members with different shades of opinion discuss subjects of interest , ofcourse with mutual respect. You are most welcome to share your opinions with others.
I am happy to know you are an admirer of Richard Dawkins, British Evolutionary Biologist and follower of Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace. His another book "The Blind Watchmaker" is a good one. I would suggest another name "Dr.Alexis Carrel (1873-1944)" the French Biologist and surgeon, a Nobel Laurette,and a declared agnostic, who has written a wonderful book "Man the Unknown". My point of bringing these names is that there are enough books and literature available on theism and atheism, which are in fact theories enunciated by these great authors. In fact we have plenty of such scholarly Dharshanas like Charvaaka Sidhdhantha written long back in our own Country.One among the six systems of accepted Philosophies in our Country is Kapila's Samkhya Philosophy stresses on materialism. These are nothing to do with Brahmins or others. After all the choice of Birth is not in the realm of individuals born.

To be modern does not mean that one should be an Atheist or Theist. These are just words of division again. First of all we should free ourselves from these blinkers that blind our views.

Our Vedas invite knowledge from every side. But "Learning should not be a barrier" said Sri Ramana Maharishi. Ancient saying says "Vidhya dadaathi vinayam..." Knowledge gives humility. "Truth" is the final goal in life. As our Philosopher Jiddu Krishnamurti declared "Truth is a pathless land...", each one has to find his own path to reach "Truth".

Wishing you a happy stay at "Tamil Brahmins".

Regards,
Brahmanyan.
 
I am new to this group. My objective in joining this group is share my concerns relating to the state of Hinduism and its followers in India.
I ventured into understanding Hinduism 5 years ago. Since then I have discovered many wonderful facets of Sanatana Dharma. I came across the aspect of belief system that is permissible in Hinduism a few weeks ago. NAasthik is not atheism as many people believe. A believer in God is known as Ishwarwadin. NAsthik is someone who doesn't believe in Vedas So we have the following combination

Aasthik and Ishwarwadin
NAsthik and Iswarwadin
Aasthik and AniIshwarwadin
NAsthik and AniIshwarwadin

I have also endeavoured to understand the raison d etre of many practises and rituals. There are plenty of reason behind them. Some of them defy time and space.

All this is possible within the Hindu belief system. It is unlike other religions where if you do not believe in God you can't be a Chrisitian or Muslim and must also believe in the Bible and Quran.

I think the whole DK and DMK movement in Tamil Nadu has diverted attention against Hindus rather than pursuing social reform. It has now descended into social engineering. I find that really abusive and dangerous. They have also applied their rationalism only with regards to Hinduism and not other religions. That also is detestable.
 
Just some musings....

Our Puranas talks a lot about evolution, Infact it is one of the pre-condition that defines a purana , it should say about ,shristi, sthithi and layam.

Usually it starts with Bramha creating mansa putras for creation and how we all descended from them, extensive lineages are narrated.

Even from our Itihasa (Ramayana) - narrates , the birds , monkeys, bears have more intelligence than we all see now. Even humans are said to be far more superior in mental and physical strength .

Darwin theory, sits just opposite to that, it states that the evolution is from tiny animals to big or higher evolutions.

Could the truth be both, some are from bottom-to -top , some from top - bottom?

Just some musings...
 
In my opinion, Darwin's theory is perfectly explained by Vishnu Purana, through the ten avatars.

Avatars seem to evolve through time and a first few may explain the primordial origins of our human development.

No need to go top-down or bottoms-up. The meta physics of our religion is so far in agreement with modern science.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Can you be an......

Dear Friends,
Our Vedanta and Puranas explain both evolution and involution. We come
from Paramatma ( Brahman ) and finally get back into HIM - advaita mukti.
Scientists are trying to understand this phenomenon.
 
The answer for this thread title is a definite "No"

Tamil Brahmin or other brahmins is a follower of Vaidika Dharma - which falls under Asthika Dharshana.

4 - Dharshanas of Buddha, one of Jaina and Charuvakas - are the 6 Dharshanas of Nasthika (athiest) .
 
Nirguna

:couch2:>> And just for this purpose, I believe in a Jewish God!<<

Shri KRS

Yahway is the jewish god.Formless god.Which is nothing but our Nirguna Brahman.:)

sb
 
I think we got confused between atheism and materialism Charvaka was not atheist he was called lokayavata, or materialist, materialism is what Hinduism does not believe now original question can we be brahmin and be an atheist, in that case we need to define what atheism, is atheism believing in god and not within one's own self?? according to indian rishi's concept you do not have to believe in god to become self realized, they believe in leading one's life according to his dharma, look at karna in mahabharatha, the supreme god krishna himself comes and asks karna to join pandavas, if we would have been there, we all would have flocked and would have said, since krishna the supreme god said its better to join pandava, but karna did not he stick to his ideals and dharma and that got him even the praise of Krishna, so god will come to you whether you believe in him or not, just do your dharma, in Gita in 10th chapter vibhoothi yoga krishna says in yogis he is Kapila, Kapila advocated Samkhya which advocated i could say atheism, so Indian do not have a problem with atheism only we ridicule materialism which is against the dharma of nature ie, lokayatas,
 
Sir,

Really appreciate your wisdom and your indepth/right understanding of 'Sanatana Dharma.' Your Explanation is so apt.

Regards,
Raj

I think we got confused between atheism and materialism Charvaka was not atheist he was called lokayavata, or materialist, materialism is what Hinduism does not believe now original question can we be brahmin and be an atheist, in that case we need to define what atheism, is atheism believing in god and not within one's own self?? according to indian rishi's concept you do not have to believe in god to become self realized, they believe in leading one's life according to his dharma, look at karna in mahabharatha, the supreme god krishna himself comes and asks karna to join pandavas, if we would have been there, we all would have flocked and would have said, since krishna the supreme god said its better to join pandava, but karna did not he stick to his ideals and dharma and that got him even the praise of Krishna, so god will come to you whether you believe in him or not, just do your dharma, in Gita in 10th chapter vibhoothi yoga krishna says in yogis he is Kapila, Kapila advocated Samkhya which advocated i could say atheism, so Indian do not have a problem with atheism only we ridicule materialism which is against the dharma of nature ie, lokayatas,
 
Sorry to join this topic so late. I think the question of atheism really depends upon which aspect of your life you stress more, being a Brahmin or being a Tamil. In Brahminism, or more to the point, Vedism, Brahman forever remains a mystery, a nebulous object of intellectual contemplation. So, one may or may not believe in It, depending on their level of interest in intellectual study.

On the contrary, the extant of Tamil literature suggests the existence of a Personal Deity Who has Concern for the welfare of His Creation. How this Deity is viewed varies slightly between Sivan, Shakti, Murugan, and Thirumal. But, the basic idea remains that the concern of the Supreme is always there for us.

Such a faith maintains a certain practicality, as it removes the need for ritualistic obligations or adherence to some set of blind dogmas to propitiate the Supreme's Blessings. It also removesthe polarized sense of "good" and "evil", or paapam and punyam, as these are not conditions that the Supreme places on us as a conditional agent to to Love.
 
Brahman is different from Brahmin
One can be a Brahman even if not a Brahmin
The nature of Brahman is described as transpersonal, personal and impersonal by different philosophical schools.
In fact considering the above even an atheist can be a Brahman
 
A Brahmin is someone who has realised Brahman. Most of us do not qualify on this, though we surely will be continuing our efforts! We qualify on the basis of the Varna in which we are born. But definitely an atheist does not believe in God, karma and rebirth. A Brahmin has to be a believer in them. Hence an atheist is not a Brahmin, though he may try to become one!
 
In a practical sense, a brahmin is someone born to brahmin mainly brahmin father; or to a brahmin couple.

One who realised 'Brahman' is above all these varna differences. He/she would not be limited to being a 'brahmin'. One who realised 'Brahman' is a jnani; a Jnani does not have any varna or caste; a Jnani does not wear 'poonool'; a Jnani do not follow a religion; a Jnani may not even believe in God.

Purva mimamsa philosophy gave more importance to karmic actions than the faith in God. They were almost atheists. They believed in karma and reincarnations.

A brahmin is not required to believe in karma, reincarnation or in God. It is based on one's definition for 'brahmin'.

It is easy to become a brahmin; it is harder to become an athiest. The hardest part for an athiest is to refrain from criticising and making fun of other's beliefs. It is really hard when it is done at home.

To answer the thread topic, yes, it is possible for a Tamil brahmin to be an atheist. I saw it with my next door neighbour. He was the Gurukkal (very learned person; properly educated; he knew 'Agama rules well', I have seen other Gurukkals consulting him). He was an athiest. I was absolutely shocked when I learnt it. (I was a kid). He showed me many things in rational thinking.

Cheers!
 
If by "atheist" you mean one who has no belief in a "personal god", i.e., one that cares, judges, and is involved in redeeming souls, then yes, I would agree with you. Because the Brahman of utthara mimamsam is not a personal divinity. It simply is a consciousness to be known. Adi Sankara expanded greatly on this idea with his notion that Brahman is all that exists, the world being just a temporal reality.

I personally would have great trouble with this, because I have always questioned this notion. If the Upanishads claim that Brahman is Satyam, Jnanam, and Anantham, then how could it delude Itself?
 
Sir,

If you study Yoga Vasistha in depth you will find the answer for yourself.
The book by Dr.B.L.Athreya is the best and it is published by Theosophical
Society, Adyar - abig volume. I am saying this because no amount of
explanation will convince you unless you read Vasistha's. I am inadequate
for the job.
 
Atheism is person that did not believe in god.
They believe they own mind and power within them
so they cant be brahmin seem they not worship god

atheists another kind of people that believe nothing exist
in world ratner than they ownself
they live without rules
the rules is the own mind
so this person will not be brahmin seem not believe the power of god
 
Re: Atheism

Then again, we can consider that belief in a personal god, i.e., one who feels, answers prayers, cares for his devotees, etc. as being theism. Those that believe in the impersonal Nirguna Brahman of Advaita Vedanta really are not worshipping a god; rather they are realizing a Higher Self. This is a matter of semantics, but in one way lack of belief in a personal god is atheism. So, perhaps one can be a TamBrahm and an atheist.
 
Dear Chora,
Everyone is free to experiment with any thought process. But some of the most advanced atheistic thoughts were expressed by the charvakas which has been negated by our shankaracharya. I am aware of dawkins, its unfortunate that you want to be mislead by this egoistic man. Let me give you some ideas which you can use to question atheistic thought to do a self introspection.
1. Atheistic believe - Identify and thoughts are a function of nervous system activities
2. perception of brain and nervous system dependant on impulses received by them is a fundamental fact of science
3. impulses received by brain are a function of transmission of signals from sense organs
4. processing and interpretation of brain signal depends on brain wiring
5. Thus understanding of world and perception of world is a function of brain wiring whose input is the external stimulus. Let us call this function as f(x). With a different brain wiring the function would be g(x)
6. Now we can see that according to brain wiring perception of humans change. Most humans have similarly structured brain wiring therefore approximating to f(x) with slight differences
7. all derivation in science is based on perception
8. all equipments constructed are in tune with human brain wiring f(x)
if we look at the 8 points listed we can conclude that science is based on f(x) and based on what exactly the world is?
So what is the universal validity of science. think yourself and dont waste time on people like dawkins who are out to make money on the sales volume of their books and will never change their opinion even if hell falls on their heads
 
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